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View Full Version : Lake irrigation pump relay, control box housing


tonydirks
07-08-2012, 07:54 PM
I am installing a lake irrigation system. I am wondering if anyone out there would mind sharing some pictures on how they have done the setup at the dock. This system will have the pump (in the lake obviously), pump start relay, a 32 gallon pressure tank, and the controller all setup on the dock. I am just needing a few creative ideas on how to design the whole dock system and make it with an enclosure.

AI Inc
07-09-2012, 06:32 AM
Why PSR and a pressure tank?

Duekster
07-09-2012, 06:39 AM
I would rather have the controls on dry ground, and keep the pump away from the dock.

jvanvliet
07-09-2012, 07:26 AM
Why a submersible pump as opposed to centrifugal?

Ditto to the above...

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 07:55 PM
Because this is how this system is going to be, for reasons to long to list here. And this was not the question that was asked?

Duekster
07-09-2012, 08:00 PM
Sorry. I have no pictures of a bad design.

greenmonster304
07-09-2012, 08:17 PM
I have zero experience with lake systems. Why would a centrifugal pump be better than a sub? I find with wells it is the opposite.
Posted via Mobile Device

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 08:59 PM
Explain your reasoning as to why this is a bad design?

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 09:13 PM
I have zero experience with lake systems. Why would a centrifugal pump be better than a sub? I find with wells it is the opposite.
Posted via Mobile Devicemany codes absolutely forbid a submersible pump in open water, even if said water was entirely on your property

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 09:17 PM
I am in Missouri, "the land of no codes", unless you live in or near a few of the cities in the state. Which I do realize that is also something to consider that codes wouldn`t allow it so why do it. But it is also how the homeowner wanted it and so.... "the customer is always right"

Duekster
07-09-2012, 09:20 PM
I am in Missouri, "the land of no codes", unless you live in or near a few of the cities in the state. Which I do realize that is also something to consider that codes wouldn`t allow it so why do it. But it is also how the homeowner wanted it and so.... "the customer is always right"

Sure they are until you gently show the a better way.

No way I would do an MCC on wood over open water.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 09:38 PM
If you violate the codes and something goes wrong, you will be financially gutted like a fish by the insurance companies. That's you, personally, and not any corporation you may believe protects you, personally.

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 09:39 PM
Where did we say there was wood involved?

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 09:54 PM
QUOTE from irrigation tutorials website, these guys could have a huge lawsuit against them then?

(Submersible Pumps
Submersible pumps are installed completely underwater, including the motor. The pump consists of an electric motor and pump combined in a single unit. Typically the pump will be shaped like a long cylinder so that it can fit down inside of a well casing. Although most submersible pumps are designed to be installed in a well, many can also be laid on their side on the bottom of a lake or stream. Another common installation method for lakes and rivers is to mount the submersible pump underwater to the side of a pier pile (post). Submersible pumps don't need to be primed since they are already under water. They also tend to be more efficient because they only push the water, they don't need to suck water into them. Most submersible pumps must be installed in a special sleeve if they are not installed in a well, and sometimes they need a sleeve even when installed in a well. The sleeve forces water coming into the pump to flow over the surface of the pump motor to keep the motor cool. Without the sleeve the pump will burn up.)

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 10:01 PM
Websites are websites, but the contractor is the pro who took the money, and owns the problems.

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 10:04 PM
What code book would this be found in?

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 10:20 PM
And, what would be your way of doing it? and would you have pictures? This is my first lake irrigation job so have been somewhat just listening to my designer and the to what the HO wants. You can PM me if you want

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 10:25 PM
Probably something more like a state administrative regulation. There's tons of stuff that isn't in code books.

You can get further with town government types if you ask them to help you convince a potential customer to choose a safer way to proceed. Obviously here, the concern with your pump-in-a-lake is electrocution. You may think it's safe, under a dock, but maybe some drunken lout in a very big boat plows right through the dock and rips the pump away from the pipe and wires.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 10:28 PM
For the states that forbid pumps in lakes, a pump is above ground near the lake, and only the suction line is in the water.

tonydirks
07-09-2012, 10:58 PM
Which requires alot larger and more expensive pump? This system will be around 20 turf heads, 80 mist heads, and 1,500` of drip line.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 11:11 PM
How many acres are you covering? What elevations are there? If you are on relatively flat ground, you could do good work with a jet pump like a Goulds J15S

tonydirks
07-10-2012, 01:05 AM
Not sure of the lot size. Less than an acre, lots of beds with shrubs and tress, and then lots of small turf areas, then a few big turf areas. The yard is maybe 10` of rise in elevation

Wet_Boots
07-10-2012, 07:15 AM
Even a 1 HP jet pump could get you 20+ gpm in those circumstances.

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 07:18 AM
I have zero experience with lake systems. Why would a centrifugal pump be better than a sub? I find with wells it is the opposite.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ease of installation, maintenance and cost.

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 07:21 AM
Because this is how this system is going to be, for reasons to long to list here. And this was not the question that was asked?

I see where this is going :dizzy:

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 07:41 AM
And, what would be your way of doing it? and would you have pictures? This is my first lake irrigation job so have been somewhat just listening to my designer and the to what the HO wants. You can PM me if you want

If this is your first lake installation, you should be less combative and more receptive. To put a MCC (master control Panel) on a dock over open water is by any stretch of the imagination stupid. It's stupid for the same reasons you wouldn't put a toaster with an extension cord on the side of the bathtub with you in it :dizzy: If that's your designers recommendation, change the designer.

As to the selection of pumps, Wet_Boots covered that pretty good.

I believe you can adequately cover less than an acre with Gould GT20 or even a GT15 assuming no significant elevations beyond the 10ft. lift from the lake for a lot less money than with a jet or submersible.

Wet_Boots
07-10-2012, 08:57 AM
The jet pump will give a bit more pressure, which lets you avoid having to use larger pipe and valves in the system to preserve pressure, so the investment pays off immediately.

Duekster
07-10-2012, 09:05 AM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/04/12565187-3-children-electrocuted-while-swimming-in-lakes-3-drown-in-river?lite


Just last week

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 02:18 PM
The jet pump will give a bit more pressure, which lets you avoid having to use larger pipe and valves in the system to preserve pressure, so the investment pays off immediately.

You'd have to do a cost analyses. I pay $ 329 for a Gould gt2 a 1 HP jet is how much? And how much more is the larger pipe?

I'm convinced if it were cheaper to design a lake system using a jet pump I'd see thousands of them. It might make more sense where you have radical differences in elevation.
Posted via Mobile Device

tonydirks
07-10-2012, 02:35 PM
If this is your first lake installation, you should be less combative and more receptive. To put a MCC (master control Panel) on a dock over open water is by any stretch of the imagination stupid. It's stupid for the same reasons you wouldn't put a toaster with an extension cord on the side of the bathtub with you in it :dizzy: If that's your designers recommendation, change the designer.



So, there is all the power I need for the MCC on the dock with a GFI plug and breaker, even if i change pump style I think I will still just be using the dock supplied power?????

ple_1969
07-10-2012, 02:51 PM
I'm a homeowner, but finished an install of a system from a river. Per Boots suggestion I used a 1.5 goulds jet pump pulling water up 17' and pushing another 10 feet to the valves. I'm getting 18 GPM at 55 PSI. Works great.

See link

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=381240&highlight=goulds

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 05:12 PM
:waving:So, there is all the power I need for the MCC on the dock with a GFI plug and breaker, even if i change pump style I think I will still just be using the dock supplied power?????

It's not a good idea to tie the pump and controller into an external power source used for other purposes. We hard wire pump & controller to a seperate sub-panel or the directly to the breaker panel.

Duekster
07-10-2012, 05:37 PM
I think that the pump requires its own ciruit per code.

tonydirks
07-10-2012, 06:50 PM
pump will be on its own circut...............

Mike Leary
07-10-2012, 07:27 PM
pump will be on its own circut...............

Good, saves me a post. :clapping:

Duekster
07-10-2012, 07:36 PM
Good, saves me a post. :clapping:

You should have added, seperate circuit away from all others. Not combined in any way, no shared conduit, no shared ground notta.

Mike Leary
07-10-2012, 07:45 PM
Why PSR and a pressure tank?

Good question. I have a ex-client (good friend, still) that did the same thing to a system I built: installed a tank and a 60-40 switch, even though we had a PSR and it worked fine. Seemed a "plumber" suggested it. He told me in an e-mail that he still has to use the PSR, as well. Any clues?

irritation
07-10-2012, 07:59 PM
Any clues?

plumber

I've installed a psr on systems that run off the house well pump so it wouldn't cycle so much but never needed a tank and pressure switch on an irrigation pump.

Duekster
07-10-2012, 08:02 PM
plumber

I've installed a psr on systems that run off the house well pump so it wouldn't cycle so much but never needed a tank and pressure switch on an irrigation pump.

I would look at the PSR as a cut out if combined with a tank.

AI Inc
07-10-2012, 08:46 PM
Ive always done either or.

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 12:10 AM
You'd have to do a cost analyses. I pay $ 329 for a Gould gt2 a 1 HP jet is how much? And how much more is the larger pipe?

I'm convinced if it were cheaper to design a lake system using a jet pump I'd see thousands of them. It might make more sense where you have radical differences in elevation.
Posted via Mobile DeviceIt's the extra top-end pressure that makes the jet pump useful, especially to a newbie who might find himself wishing he could have 50 psi at a sprinkler head. The Goulds J10S looks about the same price as the GT20, but I could use it on a property under an acre in size with 1-inch poly laterals and 1-inch zone valves. A GT20 could push so much water that it could cover several acres, if you could live with lower head pressures. I designed a one-zone 40-gpm system as a gag once, running off a 1HP centrifugal. Never did sell it.

jvanvliet
07-11-2012, 08:05 AM
It's the extra top-end pressure that makes the jet pump useful, especially to a newbie who might find himself wishing he could have 50 psi at a sprinkler head. The Goulds J10S looks about the same price as the GT20, but I could use it on a property under an acre in size with 1-inch poly laterals and 1-inch zone valves. A GT20 could push so much water that it could cover several acres, if you could live with lower head pressures. I designed a one-zone 40-gpm system as a gag once, running off a 1HP centrifugal. Never did sell it.

Jet pumps don't produce enough volume for the water demand in this area.

As far as "low pressure" issues are concerned, I haven't experienced any from properly sized and piped pumps. I usually get dynamic pressure readings at the pump (1.5HP & up) ranging around 55 - 65 PSI and in the neighborhood of 40 - 45 PSI at the last head on runs of about 150 to 200 ft. (1.25" CL160 laterals residential). That's adequate to lift the much touted R5000 and the much maligned H-PGP and give me a 40ft+ throw.

It must be a regional requirement; I have yet to see a jet pump for irrigation. I have seen some submersible jets for large cascading water falls and lake aeration fountains; we don't service these.

jvanvliet
07-11-2012, 08:12 AM
So, there is all the power I need for the MCC on the dock with a GFI plug and breaker, even if i change pump style I think I will still just be using the dock supplied power?????

Sure would like to see a picture of this arrangement.

Regardless of where you place the pump and MCC, you know you'll need 220VAC and at least a 20 Amp 220 VAC breaker independent of anything else, the proper sized wire, liquid tight conduit and fittings right?

BTW, for your application Boots is correct; a jet pump will meet your needs.

1idejim
07-11-2012, 09:04 AM
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/private-boat-dock-electrical-63784/#post817092

Duekster
07-11-2012, 09:43 AM
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/private-boat-dock-electrical-63784/#post817092

Good info Jim but I am not sure this applies to tying in a submersible pump.

1idejim
07-11-2012, 09:51 AM
Good info Jim but I am not sure this applies to tying in a submersible pump.

power-water-docks and waterways? it's all relative :) good place to start looking for answers

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 10:31 AM
Jet pumps don't produce enough volume for the water demand in this area.

As far as "low pressure" issues are concerned, I haven't experienced any from properly sized and piped pumps. I usually get dynamic pressure readings at the pump (1.5HP & up) ranging around 55 - 65 PSI and in the neighborhood of 40 - 45 PSI at the last head on runs of about 150 to 200 ft. (1.25" CL160 laterals residential). That's adequate to lift the much touted R5000 and the much maligned H-PGP and give me a 40ft+ throw.

It must be a regional requirement; I have yet to see a jet pump for irrigation. I have seen some submersible jets for large cascading water falls and lake aeration fountains; we don't service these.For poly pipe systems, costs and installation effort rise significantly when you go beyond one-inch pipe, so keeping flows in the under-20-gpm range has value.

To look at the performance curves, it looks like a lot of flow capacity is never being utilized if the GT20 output pressure is 55 psi or more, which is somewhat wasteful of electricity. I realize that only farmers are likely to look at operating costs, but when a 5 HP centrifugal is used to generate a flow and pressure that a J15S could easily supply, it's wise for anyone to start looking at operating costs.

jvanvliet
07-11-2012, 01:30 PM
For poly pipe systems, costs and installation effort rise significantly when you go beyond one-inch pipe, so keeping flows in the under-20-gpm range has value.

To look at the performance curves, it looks like a lot of flow capacity is never being utilized if the GT20 output pressure is 55 psi or more, which is somewhat wasteful of electricity. I realize that only farmers are likely to look at operating costs, but when a 5 HP centrifugal is used to generate a flow and pressure that a J15S could easily supply, it's wise for anyone to start looking at operating costs.

I don't think a JS15S can produce the same amount of water as a 5HP Gould or Berkley

Of course it's wasteful when the pump is oversized, but most of the residential here is a 1.5 HP GT15 or the STA-RITE DFH or a Home Depot piece of crap Flo-Rite.

Nominal operating pressures are at about 65 PSI (+-)regardless what their specs say. I've seen them as low as 55PSI and even lower on leaky systems

We'll use a 2HP on larger sites with larger laterals, specially when all we are running are the dreadful PGP's. What size jet do I need to give me 100GPM?

The size of the pump needs to meet the demand; but to run things on the cusp is foolish.

Below is a GT20 installed to six zone 2+ acre site. The old one got ripped out and stolen.

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 03:01 PM
I don't notice pumps delivering flow and pressure above and beyond their curves. Maybe there's some temperature factor at work. Is there a fallback plan if a GT20 can't deliver 60 psi? Do you even need the pressure, if you can size the pipe and valves to function with a supply closer to 40 psi?

I don't encounter acre lawns that need more than 20 gpm. I've even made some work with well points (pre-existing) that supplied less than 5 gpm. Florida heat and sand are a different world.

jvanvliet
07-11-2012, 05:40 PM
I don't notice pumps delivering flow and pressure above and beyond their curves. Maybe there's some temperature factor at work. Is there a fallback plan if a GT20 can't deliver 60 psi? Do you even need the pressure, if you can size the pipe and valves to function with a supply closer to 40 psi?

I don't encounter acre lawns that need more than 20 gpm. I've even made some work with well points (pre-existing) that supplied less than 5 gpm. Florida heat and sand are a different world.

Not so sure heat and sand are a factor as much as demand. Do I need to post a picture of the operating presure on one of these pumps?

How many gallons of water will fit into a 1" line @40 PSI?

How much pressure do I need at the nozzle to lift a PGP with a #7 nozzle to throw a minimum of 40 ft?

How many gpm do I need to supply 10 - 15 of these on a single zone?

Can a 1.5 jet produce the required amount of water and deliver it through a 1"valve and 1" poly laterals @ 40psi to the last heads on my longest run?

How much margin do you work into the numbers?

The GT20 is serving several acres of turf... no hedges no plantings, just grass out in the sun all day.

Duekster
07-11-2012, 05:47 PM
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-12442640365517_2199_6388447

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 06:19 PM
I think I am going to believe a manufacturer's performance curve, period. I don't really care about anyone's claims they they have performance beyond what a manufacturer specifies. Goulds has more street cred.

Duekster
07-11-2012, 06:26 PM
I thought that design criteria came first then you selected the proper pump off a curve trying to stay at the top of the curve, IE in the 80% range of its design.

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 06:32 PM
I think the top efficiency of a single-stage centrifugal is around 70-80 foot total head. My one-zone lawn system was going to have a 1HP centrifugal pushing 35-40 gpm

Duekster
07-11-2012, 06:37 PM
I would have to say based on my knowledge, which is getting faded, the curve I posted is extended way too far. The 20 is looking best at 20 GPM to 30 GPM @ just over 120 head.

That should be about 55 PSI with out hitting a calculator.

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 06:56 PM
120 feet total head is way outside the efficiency sweet spot for a common centrifugal. They can push 40 gpm per horsepower input. I know that installers invariably run centrifugals at their highest pressures, and t'heck with energy consumption or efficiency, but the J10S can deliver about as much 50+ psi water as a GT15, or maybe even a GT20, depending on lift.

Duekster
07-11-2012, 07:00 PM
120 feet total head is way outside the efficiency sweet spot for a common centrifugal. They can push 40 gpm per horsepower input. I know that installers invariably run centrifugals at their highest pressures, and t'heck with energy consumption or efficiency, but the J10S can deliver about as much 50+ psi water as a GT15, or maybe even a GT20, depending on lift.

In the curve I have posted for the GT20, it does not have a HP curve overlay.
Good point, I thought something was missing.

Duekster
07-11-2012, 07:50 PM
I think the top efficiency of a single-stage centrifugal is around 70-80 foot total head. My one-zone lawn system was going to have a 1HP centrifugal pushing 35-40 gpm

That sure does not give much room for elevation or friction losses.

you got your numbers messed up some how.

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 11:36 PM
That sure does not give much room for elevation or friction losses.

you got your numbers messed up some how.nah, the numbers were okay, since it all depended on the then-available R-50 ball-drive heads, and their "extreme" rain curtain nozzles that performed at less than 25 psi

Duekster
07-12-2012, 11:33 AM
nah, the numbers were okay, since it all depended on the then-available R-50 ball-drive heads, and their "extreme" rain curtain nozzles that performed at less than 25 psi

How is THEN available going to help the OP?

Wet_Boots
07-12-2012, 11:58 AM
I recommended a jet pump, if you recall. I think the only current product that would fit the 40 gpm output of a 1 HP centrifugal pump would be brass-nozzle popup sprays.

Kiril
07-12-2012, 12:44 PM
I recommended a jet pump, if you recall.

What is new? That is the only type of pump you ever recommend, even if it is not appropriate. Not enough flow ... well then just rebuild your system to fit the pump.

Wet_Boots
07-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Less than an acre for a lakeside pump, so whaddaya want, a 50 HP turbine?

Duekster
07-12-2012, 06:04 PM
Less than an acre for a lakeside pump, so whaddaya want, a 50 HP turbine?

Flood Irrigation for the win :drinkup:

1idejim
07-12-2012, 07:13 PM
Flood Irrigation for the win :drinkup:

Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

tonydirks
07-12-2012, 07:26 PM
Where would you put the MCC and pump start relay if you have an on shore pump? We have a sub panel on land right before the dock, where we could get power from, which is where the GFI breakers are. I would make an outdoor panel for MCC and PSR then? The MCC is a Hunter I-core.

And how far out into the lake or under how many feet of water do you usually put the end of your pipe in the lake? The lake is somewhat low right now....... which is another way I am talking the homeowner out of the sub pump, because it needs 4-5 ft of water.. at least, and who knows how low the lase gonna go yet????? So if its just a pipe in the lake, we can always add on.

Also I really don`t like putting my systems on GFI if possible because of the problems with it tripping without reason and no one see`s till the plants and grass are dead, then who`s fault is it??? So I do like the hardwiring idea. Our normal systems for the company I worked for all had indoor MCC that we put on a non-gfi outlet.

tonydirks
07-12-2012, 07:28 PM
Also I could say let the discussion continue on the pumps, I like to hear the good and the bad on what the real life experiences have been with them, because obviously they don`t tell you about that on their own

tonydirks
07-12-2012, 07:59 PM
And on the question as to why a PSR and tank... like I stated earlier this is my first lake install so have a designer...(or so I thought he was) helping me design it. I understand the tank is because of the drip lines, so the pump isn`t constantly cycling when they are on. I don`t like the tank idea... its ugly and hard to hide...

Duekster
07-12-2012, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE]Where would you put the MCC and pump start relay if you have an on shore pump?

Typically 6 feet away from the water but check local code

We have a sub panel on land right before the dock, where we could get power from, which is where the GFI breakers are. I would make an outdoor panel for MCC and PSR then? The MCC is a Hunter I-core.

Fine with me.

And how far out into the lake or under how many feet of water do you usually put the end of your pipe in the lake? The lake is somewhat low right now....... which is another way I am talking the homeowner out of the sub pump, because it needs 4-5 ft of water.. at least, and who knows how low the lase gonna go yet????? So if its just a pipe in the lake, we can always add on.

Kind of gives you an idea if the lake is low now, go out far enough to get the depth needed.


Also I really don`t like putting my systems on GFI if possible because of the problems with it tripping without reason and no one see`s till the plants and grass are dead, then who`s fault is it??? So I do like the hardwiring idea. Our normal systems for the company I worked for all had indoor MCC that we put on a non-gfi outlet.

You might have to put it on the GFIC if the electrical is not submerged. Again check with code and see how far off the shore the pump needs to be to avoid GFIC if possible.

Duekster
07-12-2012, 08:15 PM
And on the question as to why a PSR and tank... like I stated earlier this is my first lake install so have a designer...(or so I thought he was) helping me design it. I understand the tank is because of the drip lines, so the pump isn`t constantly cycling when they are on. I don`t like the tank idea... its ugly and hard to hide...

In the case of a drip / small drip the tank might be an good idea. I have drip without a tank but then again I have thosands of feet of 2" main line too and the drip zones are hundreds of feet long.

There likely does need to be a cut out to protect the pump in case the suction is restricted or the lake level is low.

Duekster
07-12-2012, 08:17 PM
Also I could say let the discussion continue on the pumps, I like to hear the good and the bad on what the real life experiences have been with them, because obviously they don`t tell you about that on their own

You need a master filter and sub filters if you are going drip.
The master filter likely needs a flush valve. Scruber type. Activated by the controller flushing back to the lake.

This is on the discharge side, you need a footvalve on the suction line with a strainer.

tonydirks
07-12-2012, 09:10 PM
There isn`t much for codes here on things like this, this is one of the first irrigation systems in this part of the country! I was basically asking what are codes in some other areas so I can get an idea of whats standard?

Does your suction line lay on the bottom? I was thinking about elevating it to try to help eliminate some of the debris sucked into the lines, and yes trying to help with the problem of the drip lines and filteration. Has anyone done this?

tonydirks
07-12-2012, 09:14 PM
AND another question!
Do the centrifugal pumps always need to go at ground level with a box that I have to build? Or why not put it in the ground in a jumbo control box?

And, I wonder then if I could bury the pressure tank!!?? :-)

Wet_Boots
07-12-2012, 09:20 PM
AND another question!
Do the centrifugal pumps always need to go at ground level with a box that I have to build? Or why not put it in the ground in a jumbo control box?

And, I wonder then if I could bury the pressure tank!!?? :-)While there are pressure tanks that can be buried, the pump doesn't get buried. That would be both silly and stupid. I would sometimes pour a pier block for the pump to be bolted onto.

Duekster
07-12-2012, 09:31 PM
There isn`t much for codes here on things like this, this is one of the first irrigation systems in this part of the country! I was basically asking what are codes in some other areas so I can get an idea of whats standard?

Does your suction line lay on the bottom? I was thinking about elevating it to try to help eliminate some of the debris sucked into the lines, and yes trying to help with the problem of the drip lines and filteration. Has anyone done this?

You do not want to suck mud into your drip. Make a frame from some PVC to hold the suction line up a foot or too off the bottom and sink it.

sammmy
07-13-2012, 12:33 AM
AND another question!
Do the centrifugal pumps always need to go at ground level with a box that I have to build? Or why not put it in the ground in a jumbo control box?

And, I wonder then if I could bury the pressure tank!!?? :-)

you dont want to put in too small of a box because it will overheat and burn up. you need air moving around

tonydirks
07-13-2012, 10:38 AM
wet_boots,
is the above stated reason why you would say not to put pump in the ground? I just know I am going to need a good argument as to why we can`t do that. Thanks for the help!

1idejim
07-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Tony, while some states don't have extensive building requirements they all recognize the NEC and NFPA.
I suggest for your own piece of mind you research this issue fully.
As far as the pump and controls go, look at constant pressure/on demand systems.
If you choose to install an above ground PT the tank, pump and controlls may be hidden in plain sight. I had a client that hid his pool equipment by building a rustic outhouse complete with half moon cutout in the door. this blended well with his country craft style tastes.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
07-13-2012, 10:12 PM
wet_boots,
is the above stated reason why you would say not to put pump in the ground? I just know I am going to need a good argument as to why we can`t do that. Thanks for the help!Why don't you plug in the toaster and throw it in the bathtub? Bare power conductors below grade is almost insanely stupid.

Would it help you if imagined you were asking these questions of a relative who employs you, the kind that slaps you about that hard when you ask a really really stupid question?

1idejim
07-13-2012, 10:35 PM
Why don't you plug in the toaster and throw it in the bathtub? Bare power conductors below grade is almost insanely stupid.

Would it help you if imagined you were asking these questions of a relative who employs you, the kind that slaps you about that hard when you ask a really really stupid question?

slam your tail in the door again?
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Wet_Boots
07-13-2012, 10:49 PM
slam your tail in the door again?
Posted via Mobile Devicebaseball sound is down, and I'm short on patience

But minus the violence, some dumb questions are best answered with extreme examples/counter-questions, just to cut through the mental fuzz.

1idejim
07-13-2012, 11:40 PM
baseball sound is down, and I'm short on patience

But minus the violence, some dumb questions are best answered with extreme examples/counter-questions, just to cut through the mental fuzz.

It is a well known fact that you are an expert on pumps and antiquated sprinkler parts and equipment. We can now add fuzz to your area of expertize
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jvanvliet
07-14-2012, 09:29 AM
What is new? That is the only type of pump you ever recommend, even if it is not appropriate. Not enough flow ... well then just rebuild your system to fit the pump.

Thank you...

jvanvliet
07-14-2012, 10:26 AM
Couple of questions:

Why are you guys promoting a pressure tank & a demand system? It's not like he can't power his control valves from one location or he is using the source for his potable supply and he really doesn't need a tank or a PSR to operate his drip line. The pumps not going to cycle without them.

Demand systems are a PIA, any kind of leak at the valve or on the main and the pump will be cycling night and day. Have replaced plenty of motors on demand system pumps :dizzy:

To the OP: I don't know what type of elevation we're looking at, you may have posted it but I didn't see it.

In answer to some questions; your suction line needs to be bigger than your discharge line. Build your intake using a 45 degree elbow at the end and attach your canal/lake filter so it faces up, it'll look a little like this: ___/ We place ours on a concrete bag and then box it in with a couple of more bags so it doesn't move.

On residential application we'll install an American made brass check valve at or slightly below the water line. Try and avoid any Chinese crap even if it's cheaper. It'll be nothing but a headche later on.

The depth of your suction line will be determined by the pump you use; you want it deep enough so as not to cause cavitation. The depth requirement will determine how far out you have to go. Remember, dynamic head is measured from the water line.

You can install a filter directly to your drip lines; because you are using lake water there is probably plenty of suspended particles in he water. An extremely fine mesh lake filter will foul very quickly (at least it does here) below is a picture of the type of canal filter we use... although ours is not Orbit. Below that is an image of a check valve.

Also remember that every region has a different way of doing things: I'm in South Florida, there are people here from Texas, NY State, Washington, California, etc. Everybody feels their way is best.

Your best bet is to find a local irrigation company that is familiar with your region. It's clear you may be lower on the learning curve than you ought to be.


>

Duekster
07-14-2012, 10:51 AM
we have a large 2" disk filter on the pump discharge @ 150 Microns that has a flush port on it. We then attach a scruber valve on that to flush the valve daily. That saves to irrigation system from problems, and add the mesh filters drip valve stations along with the pressure regulators.

jvanvliet
07-14-2012, 10:58 AM
we have a large 2" disk filter on the pump discharge @ 150 Microns that has a flush port on it. We then attach a scruber valve on that to flush the valve daily. That saves to irrigation system from problems, and add the mesh filters drip valve stations along with the pressure regulators.

Overkill... :gunsfirin

Those TigerPaws ought to handle dirty water like the Hunter PGP's.

:p

Duekster
07-14-2012, 11:00 AM
Overkill... :gunsfirin

:p

I only have 28 stations with about 40K feet of drip on the system.

Wet_Boots
07-14-2012, 11:12 AM
I sometimes find it necessary to float an inlet strainer, because of very limited clear water in small ponds.

jvanvliet
07-14-2012, 11:19 AM
I only have 28 stations with about 40K feet of drip on the system.

See? Different regions.

tonydirks
08-01-2012, 07:24 PM
I know this thread had long been gone, but figured I would post a picture of the setup now that it is complete and running. And to let you criticize, and to help me learn the lake pump system better.

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 07:37 PM
by George he's got it!

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=96554&stc=1&d=1199829008

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 08:51 PM
Ummm...I wouldn't have done it that way.

tonydirks
08-01-2012, 08:53 PM
Explain?????

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 09:22 PM
Explain?????

Not bashing...your workmanship looks good.

Location of your tank is not good. Me...i just wouldn't use one at all. Your intake and discharge lines are the same size. It's best not to even see the suction line.

Not trying to be a dick about it. Like I said, the workmanship looks good. I just wouldn't do it that way, that's all.

tonydirks
08-01-2012, 11:49 PM
Thats what I need/want, constructive criticism.

I believe the tank to be a good idea with the drip lines that we have, the pump would cycle alot if it wasn`t for it?

I do have to admit on the bigger suction line that I did realize after I had it all set up that i should have done that, what problems might this cause?

I also did want the suction line to be less obvious myself, but I learned that it is best to run the suction line straight out from the pump as far as possible, before an 45`s or 90`s. Maybe thats not all together true? We did end up with awesome suction and great pressure.

Thanks for the help and ideas I`ve received here, going to look at another lake job tomorrow.

1idejim
08-02-2012, 01:00 AM
Thats what I need/want, constructive criticism.

I believe the tank to be a good idea with the drip lines that we have, the pump would cycle alot if it wasn`t for it?

I do have to admit on the bigger suction line that I did realize after I had it all set up that i should have done that, what problems might this cause?

I also did want the suction line to be less obvious myself, but I learned that it is best to run the suction line straight out from the pump as far as possible, before an 45`s or 90`s. Maybe thats not all together true?




10 to 20 diameters before directional changes. Gal or brass in and out of pump is prefered
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tonydirks
08-02-2012, 04:06 PM
It is probably hard to tell in the pictures, that suction line is galvanized for 6 ft out and 1 ft down where it changes to pvc before hitting resevoir full level, ( the lake is low right now)

Duekster
08-02-2012, 09:08 PM
looks like regular lumber which will not last but Like otherwise.

tonydirks
08-02-2012, 09:34 PM
It is all treated lumber. And it will all be covered from the weather yet