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View Full Version : PGP Ultra vs RB 5004


jabbo
07-09-2012, 09:32 PM
It's time for a throwdown!!!!! :laugh: I am still up in the air about which of these two heads to use on my dad's new system. So in the next few days I'm going to do alittle experiment. Just want to find out which head has the BEST rain curtain and the best short and long distance watering. I have a few sprinklers I built back before I installed my system that consist of 3/4" pipe to form the base and the upright. I did alittle trial run today but did not have the catch cans and the wind was blowing. Now I know that this test should not be the only factor, but with all the talk lately about coverage I thought it would be kinda neat. So here is the deal. I will be hooking this to a normal garden hose thats hooked to a 3/4" faucet that goes back to my well. I am not opening the faucet all the way because that would be too much flow/pressure. Today I opened it a whole round and it looked about like my rotors do when they're watering. I am not considering flow or pressure, I'm just setting it up the same for both heads. I will set them to do a half circle and time them the same. I am going to space cans every so often to catch the water.. Any suggestions about this little amateur test appreciated...Just remember guys, this is nothing fancy and it just for fun!!! Will come back with updates and pics soon.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-09-2012, 10:05 PM
Try the la nozzles as well.

Kiril
07-10-2012, 11:08 AM
You need to record nozzle pressure. Further, if you don't set the catches in the same place or run the test an appropriate amount of time, or do the test in conditions that are identical (or close to), or analyze the results correctly, or set the sprinklers at the same height and location with the same nozzle flow, etc. Also you can't just simply compare catch amounts here ...... have fun.

jabbo
07-10-2012, 01:09 PM
Wew, you scared me...There for a minute I thought you were going to do as you normally do and tell me EXACTLY how to do this....:rolleyes:

So just for you: I will be setting the catches in the same place, I will be testing them the EXACT same amount of time, I will be testing them in the exact conditions(wind speed, time of day, moon phase, same amount of beer I have consumed) :laugh:, I will place the sprinklers at the same height because they will be interchanged on the SAME sprinkler frame(you would know this if you would have read my post and took in the imformation instead of trying to figure out how you were going to belittle my "little amatuer" test), and finally I will be TRYING to use the same flow...And yes, against your better judgement, I will JUST COMPARE THE AMOUNT OF WATER!!!!! There, see how easy that was. And yes, I'm already having fun!!!!:cool2::cool2: So stay tuned.

You need to record nozzle pressure. Further, if you don't set the catches in the same place or run the test an appropriate amount of time, or do the test in conditions that are identical (or close to), or analyze the results correctly, or set the sprinklers at the same height and location with the same nozzle flow, etc. Also you can't just simply compare catch amounts here ...... have fun.

GreenLight
07-10-2012, 09:02 PM
Go ahead and create a large leak in the the wiper seal on the PGP so it more closely performs as it would in the field after about a month.

jabbo
07-10-2012, 09:30 PM
Sorry, no can do. I've got pgp's that have been running 4-5 years in my yard with no leaks....But I will keep that in mind.

Go ahead and create a large leak in the the wiper seal on the PGP so it more closely performs as it would in the field after about a month.

1idejim
07-10-2012, 10:46 PM
I do more than a bit of tailgate testing myself and if i were performing this one i would install a liquid filled gauge in a tee just below the head.

I may not be nozzle pressure but it is better than nothing.

Kiril is an acquired taste but if he says something he can back it up. not everyone can
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grassman177
07-10-2012, 11:54 PM
Sounds fun to me
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Kiril
07-11-2012, 10:06 AM
And yes, against your better judgement, I will JUST COMPARE THE AMOUNT OF WATER!!!!!

So how do you plan on compensating for different rotational speeds of the rotors? How about height of nozzle from the ground? I hope you are planning on normalizing your results so we might have some useful information instead of just some random junk data.

jabbo
07-11-2012, 10:57 AM
So how do you plan on compensating for different rotational speeds of the rotors?

I would think that they would even themselves out after a 30 min. run but I could be wrong. The 5004 does have a faster rotation and will not put down as much water(with the same gpm nozzles) as the pgp on one single pass. BUT, it will make more passes. So it should be close.

How about height of nozzle from the ground?

The difference is going to be around 6-8 inches. Will not effect MY results that much!!!

I hope you are planning on normalizing your results so we might have some useful information instead of just some random junk data.

I would've thought with all your knowledge that the results of this test would be of little to no use to you because you already know exactly how they perform....:laugh:

Kiril
07-11-2012, 11:37 AM
I would've thought with all your knowledge that the results of this test would be of little to no use to you because you already know exactly how they perform....:laugh:

I know that a test of a single rotor is not going to tell you much of anything, even if done properly. System design is the bigger factor here as even the most efficient single rotor can be made complete inefficient with poor design.

So let me ask you this. What information do you hope to get from simply looking at amounts in the cans? Different nozzles will give you different amounts in the cans, and the difference will be solely due to the different output of the nozzle. This essentially tells you nothing about the uniformity of the rotor/nozzle across the pattern. Are you planning on actually measuring the volume of water in the catches, or just look at it or measure it with a ruler? Also if you think nozzle height above ground will not impact the results you are mistaken. Instead of being combative, why not just ask someone to help you design your little experiment so it will actually have some meaning? I am sure deuk would help if you ask him nicely.

jabbo
07-11-2012, 12:51 PM
The only thing I am trying to accomplish(other than having alittle fun) is to determine which head throws the best pattern to MY liking!!!! I will also be looking at the "rain curtain" that both of them are suppose to have. I know that different nozzles give you different amounts.:hammerhead: But I will use the same nozzle in each that has been spec'ed to put down the same amount of water going by the nozzle charts for each. And yes , I know that the head is going to throw differently being higher but it will be the same for both heads for the third time. And finally, I'm not being "combative" as you call it. I'm just having fun. Why don't you let me handle my little test and you get back to your "mall cop" interent police duties!!!!! :laugh::laugh: Thank you!

I thought I said somewhere along the way that this was just for fun?????


I know that a test of a single rotor is not going to tell you much of anything, even if done properly. System design is the bigger factor here as even the most efficient single rotor can be made complete inefficient with poor design.

So let me ask you this. What information do you hope to get from simply looking at amounts in the cans? Different nozzles will give you different amounts in the cans, and the difference will be solely due to the different output of the nozzle. This essentially tells you nothing about the uniformity of the rotor/nozzle across the pattern. Are you planning on actually measuring the volume of water in the catches, or just look at it or measure it with a ruler? Also if you think nozzle height above ground will not impact the results you are mistaken. Instead of being combative, why not just ask someone to help you design your little experiment so it will actually have some meaning? I am sure deuk would help if you ask him nicely.

Kiril
07-11-2012, 01:55 PM
I know that the head is going to throw differently being higher but it will be the same for both heads for the third time.

Tell me, how will nozzle height above the ground affect this determination (see bold)?

Just want to find out which head has the BEST rain curtain and the best short and long distance watering.

As far as the rest goes .... have fun, but don't expect your results to tell you anything if you can't/won't use methodology that will give you some meaningful results.

Oh, and FYI .... performance data that you can trust ..... And before you go spouting off about the i20 not being the same as the PGP Ultra, I suggest you take a look at the nozzles for each.

http://cit.cati.csufresno.edu/programs_services/citprofiles.html


http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216336&d=1301327402

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216335&d=1301327392

jabbo
07-11-2012, 02:26 PM
Did I do these test????? Gee wiz, I must have blacked out for a couple of years because I sure as hell don't remember doing these test. Oh yea, these are not my test. Silly me. I have not done them yet... :dizzy::dizzy:

I think when I get through with my test I'm going to PM every person on this site with the results with the exception of one individual!!!! Anybody got a guess???:laugh::laugh:


Tell me, how will nozzle height above the ground affect this determination (see bold)?



As far as the rest goes .... have fun, but don't expect your results to tell you anything if you can't/won't use methodology that will give you some meaningful results.

Oh, and FYI .... performance data that you can trust ..... And before you go spouting off about the i20 not being the same as the PGP Ultra, I suggest you take a look at the nozzles for each.

http://cit.cati.csufresno.edu/programs_services/citprofiles.html


http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216336&d=1301327402

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216335&d=1301327392

Kiril
07-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Did I do these test????? Gee wiz, I must have blacked out for a couple of years because I sure as hell don't remember doing these test. Oh yea, these are not my test. Silly me. I have not done them yet... :dizzy::dizzy:

I think when I get through with my test I'm going to PM every person on this site with the results with the exception of one individual!!!! Anybody got a guess???:laugh::laugh:

If you think for even a second that your "experiment" will somehow be better than a standardized performance test, then knock yourself out. I try to help you think about factors that will impact the reliability and meaningfulness of the test and all I get is punk ass jerk attitude from you, so go ...........

Sad thing is if you or those people you PM actually believe the results are meaningful then you and they are fools, but whatever. Carry on dude.

Mike Leary
07-11-2012, 02:54 PM
I think when I get through with my test I'm going to PM every person on this site with the results with the exception of one individual!!!! Anybody got a guess???:laugh::laugh:

Leave me out of the PM, as well. Most of you know my choices: RB 5000/5500 6" stainless and I-20 stainless, both are great heads. :clapping:

jabbo
07-11-2012, 03:06 PM
Dude you take this stuff WAY too seriously.... While I do appreciate the help, I'm only messing around with these heads just come to a conclusion on which one I want to install for my dad... This is not life-threating or gonna cause a cataclysmic event or anything like that...Like I said, sometimes it's best to just say "knock yourself out dude", but that's BEFORE you post 17 times and start the name calling and getting all mad!!!! And then calls anybody who believes the results names also. IN OTHER WORDS CHILL-OUT!!!! Have a beer or something... If it will make you happy I will just scrap the whole thing!!! NOT :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

Says to self: What the hell is this guys problem??? Bet his blood preasure is sky high at the end of a long day on Lawnsite...It's sad to say, but it's going to get to where people are going to not post on here just because they have to listen to people like you who think they know everything and then some!!!!


If you think for even a second that your "experiment" will somehow be better than a standardized performance test, then knock yourself out. I try to help you think about factors that will impact the reliability and meaningfulness of the test and all I get is punk ass jerk attitude from you, so go ...........

Sad thing is if you or those people you PM actually believe the results are meaningful then you and they are fools, but whatever. Carry on dude.

jabbo
07-11-2012, 03:08 PM
I was joking Mike, as you probably already know but some people think I'm dead serious about this little test.....And I do agree with ya!!:cool2::cool2:

Leave me out of the PM, as well. Most of you know my choices: RB 5000/5500 6" stainless and I-20 stainless, both are great heads. :clapping:

Mike Leary
07-11-2012, 05:28 PM
I was joking Mike, as you probably already know but some people think I'm dead serious about this little test....

I know, it's fun to see the peanut gallery swing into action. I just remembered an incident with a W*M REP who had built a manifold to hook into a hose bib and demonstrate the Turbo rotor. We hooked it up, fired it, and I could have pissed farther. He left, dejected. It was only later I learned the wife had the washer and two of our Gardena oscillators going. I never told the REP what happened.:laugh:

jabbo
07-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Yea I bet he bought sh!t his pants when he turned it on.... I have been messing around with these 2 heads and they will throw really far if I open the faucet all the way...I think I am going to get a gauge to hook to it.

I know, it's fun to see the peanut gallery swing into action. I just remembered an incident with a W*M REP who had built a manifold to hook into a hose bib and demonstrate the Turbo rotor. We hooked it up, fired it, and I could have pissed farther. He left, dejected. It was only later I learned the wife had the washer and two of our Gardena oscillators going. I never told the REP what happened.:laugh:

AI Inc
07-11-2012, 06:06 PM
I know, it's fun to see the peanut gallery swing into action. I just remembered an incident with a W*M REP who had built a manifold to hook into a hose bib and demonstrate the Turbo rotor. We hooked it up, fired it, and I could have pissed farther. He left, dejected. It was only later I learned the wife had the washer and two of our Gardena oscillators going. I never told the REP what happened.:laugh:

Thats pretty damn funny!

Wet_Boots
07-11-2012, 06:27 PM
I was just working on a system of really sick looking W*M rotor heads. They did pop up and turn, but not with performance you'd pay a nickel for. Put a pressure gauge on the blowout valve. Barely 30 psi, and this was upstream of the PVB

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Let me know if they are including the LA nozzle on the PGP tree. One reason I dropped them for the 5000.

Kiril
07-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Dude you take this stuff WAY too seriously....

Silly me, I thought this was a professional forum where people can rely on getting accurate and actionable information from professionals. I suppose I am the fool for believing it was such a forum. :hammerhead::waving:

irritation
07-11-2012, 07:28 PM
I was just working on a system

How do you find the time?

W/M rotors? I don't even have any adjusting tools left for them anymore.:hammerhead:

Mike Leary
07-11-2012, 07:40 PM
I suppose I am the fool for believing it was such a forum. :hammerhead::waving:

Mom never got over the time you jumped into the outhouse. She always said, "he was different after that." :dizzy:

irritation
07-11-2012, 07:47 PM
Mom never got over the time you jumped into the outhouse. She always said, "he was different after that." :dizzy:

No, it's when they go to school for an engineering degree. They come back knowing everything.

Mike Leary
07-11-2012, 07:57 PM
No, it's when they go to school for an engineering degree. They come back knowing everything.

I have a degree in engineering, some of my education worked, most of it took me thirty years to un-learn.

irritation
07-11-2012, 08:01 PM
I have a degree in engineering,

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00450/Steam_Locomotivepix.jpg

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-11-2012, 08:02 PM
Jabbo "accurate and actionable" means I'm right, do as I say, and if it doesn't agree with my beliefs then it's wrong.....

Price, performance, durability, ease of service, options, etc. We all have different priorities. We all have different opinions.

jabbo
07-12-2012, 07:28 AM
Yea some people just blow stuff way out of proportion...

Jabbo "accurate and actionable" means I'm right, do as I say, and if it doesn't agree with my beliefs then it's wrong.....

Price, performance, durability, ease of service, options, etc. We all have different priorities. We all have different opinions.

Wet_Boots
07-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Let me know if they are including the LA nozzle on the PGP tree. One reason I dropped them for the 5000.that would mean about 20 nozzles for each PGP head. Since the PGP Ultra uses the I-20 nozzles, they get the same nozzle tree.

Kiril
07-12-2012, 10:04 AM
Jabbo "accurate and actionable" means I'm right, do as I say, and if it doesn't agree with my beliefs then it's wrong.....

Price, performance, durability, ease of service, options, etc. We all have different priorities. We all have different opinions.

There is a right and wrong way to test performance. You either do it right or don't do it at all. But then, it is of no surprise that you don't understand this simple fact Pete.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-12-2012, 10:57 AM
Performance can be tested without going to some anal retentive nth degree by a layman to satisfy his accurate and actionable needs. Performance isn't the sole criteria for choosing a product anyway. Right or wrong on this forum isn't determined by a noisy outlier.

My guess Jabbo is you will find they both perform well and both can do the job. Ease of adjustment, durability, and price will tip the scale one way or the other depending on the value a person places on each factor.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-12-2012, 11:01 AM
that would mean about 20 nozzles for each PGP head. Since the PGP Ultra uses the I-20 nozzles, they get the same nozzle tree.

I like the 5000 tree setup. The LAs don't need to be in every nozzle size of the standards. Just the sizes of what gets used a great portion of the time.

jabbo
07-12-2012, 11:43 AM
And I agree with you 100%. I'm just meesing around with them really. I really like the Ultra but just wanted to see the 5004 in action so I bought one. Didn't know I was going to start a 4 page war!!! Seems like thats happening alot these days on this site and not just in the irrigation forum either!!!:rolleyes: Thanks for the info Pete.

My guess Jabbo is you will find they both perform well and both can do the job. Ease of adjustment, durability, and price will tip the scale one way or the other depending on the value a person places on each factor.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-12-2012, 12:02 PM
Change your settings and it becomes a one page discussion. Difference of opinions abound here. As Mike has said we are making water work. I drive by hay and alfalfa fields every day. Some use center pivots and several types of those are out there. Some use flood. Some use nothing and pray they get at least one cutting. Nothing wrong with opinions even to the extreme. It's the right or wrong declarations and arrogance that start the wars.

Kiril
07-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Performance can be tested without going to some anal retentive nth degree by a layman to satisfy his accurate and actionable needs.

Actually it can't, that is why we have standards. Go ahead and use boots if its wet method of testing performance, don't give a rats ass if you want to wallow in the swill with the amateurs and hacks.

Performance isn't the sole criteria for choosing a product anyway.

Who said it was? Certainly I didn't .... did someone else?

Right or wrong on this forum isn't determined by a noisy outlier.

Be sure you keep that in mind retiree.

It's the right or wrong declarations and arrogance that start the wars.

Hmmmmmm, this is the type of shiit that starts wars you tool! But keep on with your petty childish bullshiit, it fits your character.

jabbo
07-12-2012, 12:53 PM
Ah yes, I was on the farm also back in the day. We had bunches of pivots(stationary and towable) and hard hoses with guns. Not fun laying 90' joints of 6" irrigation pipe through 8' tall corn after you just put 2" of water on it when the temp is around 95 degrees. Farm irrigation is on alot bigger scale no doubt. Usually 6"-8" pipe in the ground to the pivots with HUGE thrust blocks at the "Z" pipe and the riser and at every turn. That was the days...

Change your settings and it becomes a one page discussion. Difference of opinions abound here. As Mike has said we are making water work. I drive by hay and alfalfa fields every day. Some use center pivots and several types of those are out there. Some use flood. Some use nothing and pray they get at least one cutting. Nothing wrong with opinions even to the extreme. It's the right or wrong declarations and arrogance that start the wars.

Sprinkus
07-14-2012, 11:52 AM
Found an interesting PGP/5000 hybrid the other day. It was a couple of PGP's with 5000 nozzles installed in them. I was surprised at how well they covered close in due to all of the leakage around the nozzle.

1idejim
07-14-2012, 03:47 PM
Found an interesting PGP/5000 hybrid the other day. It was a couple of PGP's with 5000 nozzles installed in them. I was surprised at how well they covered close in due to all of the leakage around the nozzle.

Maybe i should suggest that to my neighbor for his newly installed system. Approx. 20,000 - 25,000 sf of lawn. 5 zones of 5 rb 5004 heads ea. and 1 zone drip. Well system with 20 gpm max and 50 - 70 psi spread at the P.T.

1 week old and he's dragging a fan sprinkler to water the brown spots.
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jabbo
07-15-2012, 10:22 AM
So what is the problem? Bad design?

Maybe i should suggest that to my neighbor for his newly installed system. Approx. 20,000 - 25,000 sf of lawn. 5 zones of 5 rb 5004 heads ea. and 1 zone drip. Well system with 20 gpm max and 50 - 70 psi spread at the P.T.

1 week old and he's dragging a fan sprinkler to water the brown spots.
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1idejim
07-15-2012, 10:31 AM
So what is the problem? Bad design?

there's no problem, he got exactly what he paid for.
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grassman177
07-15-2012, 10:45 AM
Basically....paid for crap
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Kiril
07-15-2012, 10:56 AM
there's no problem, he got exactly what he paid for.

The guy probably designed based on some slap stick performance test. :laugh:

1idejim
07-15-2012, 01:37 PM
The guy probably designed based on some slap stick performance test. :laugh:

I just came back from a swim in the canal to unplug a 15~ line and noticed the front yard now is sporting MPs instead of 5004s.

Even though i know what the parameters of the supply are i wouldn't dream of installing a system without performing the proper tests and running the numbers.

Shoot i can drive by and see that the back yard requires 8 to 10 zones.

Sprays at the house 12gpm.
Corners 14gpm
180s 12gpm
180s 12gpm
180s 14gpm
FCs 13gpm
FCs 13gpm
FCs 13gpm
FCs 13gpm
Spare valve for future and drip - 2

PSI @ PT 55 - 60lbs constant

Pressure loss average 16psi at valves

I personally would test and design but you can see where i am coming from.

water in the canal was warm btw
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1idejim
07-15-2012, 02:26 PM
I just came back from a swim in the canal to unplug a 15~ line and noticed the front yard now is sporting MPs instead of 5004s.

Even though i know what the parameters of the supply are i wouldn't dream of installing a system without performing the proper tests and running the numbers.

Shoot i can drive by and see that the back yard requires 8 to 10 zones.

Sprays at the house 12gpm.
Corners 14gpm
180s 12gpm
180s 12gpm
180s 14gpm
FCs 13gpm
FCs 13gpm
FCs 13gpm
FCs 13gpm
Spare valve for future and drip - 2

PSI @ PT 55 - 60lbs constant

Pressure loss average 16psi at valves

I personally would test and design but you can see where i am coming from.

water in the canal was warm btw
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Sprays are at house only and everything is offhand observation.
I would use 5006 heads
and 3.0 nozzles - 1" lats - 1.5 main down the middle of the yard both ways with angle valves on the main.
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Kiril
07-15-2012, 08:28 PM
Go with the i20s and SS risers and make my daddy cream his jeans. :laugh: