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paul
08-15-2000, 11:26 PM
Recivied a call today from a L.A. questioning me on installing pavers on a parking structure. Question was how do you elemiate the water that builds up under the pavers if they are set on concrete.

OK guys lets hear how we would do it.

Guido
08-16-2000, 06:27 AM
Somewhere on the parking lot were low spots in the concrete or a place where the main bulk of water drained. That spot or spots should have been identified before the pavers were put down. It could have been broken up and filled with a draining rock or ballast, and then lay the pavers over it. I don't know what you could do now without major construction, maybe some kind of drilling.


How large of an area is the water affecting??

I'd like to hear what comes of this. Thanks Paul!!

paul
08-16-2000, 07:13 AM
This is on new construction, still in design phase, total paver area is going to be in the 30,000 sq. ft. range.

The structure is going to be seen by people so they are thinking that using pavers will make the structure match with other features that surround the structure.

Lanelle
08-16-2000, 06:09 PM
Even though I'm not a guy, I guess I'll express my opinion anyway! Since this is going to be installed on a solid,non-permeable base, very little bedding is needed. My paver rep. says that 95% of the available moisture is going to run off of the pavers so only 5% might get through at the most--especially if a style with square corners is used. I would also advise against using a tumbled style of paver that is less uniform than the typical holland stone. The only time that the moisture that filters down could be a problem would be during freezing weather and the sand interlock should allow enough movement to handle that. If that is a large concern, maybe use a flexible expansion joint to prevent heaving.

Stonehenge
08-16-2000, 08:08 PM
I was originally thinking about the use of suspended pavers over the entire structure, much like some applications you see on rooftops. However, seeing this is vehicular and not pedestrian traffic, I think that's out. Those pieces that suspend the brick/block would surely fail in time. My next thought, though, was to identify places where (or design places where) water would collect on the structure and not be subjected to vehicular traffic, and have this support structure/permeable membrane to route the water to some sort of drainage system. As for the base itself, I'd concur with Lanelle - you wouldn't want them laid directly on concrete - too prone to wobble. But you also don't want to build a full base - making a flexible pavement - over a rigid pavement - defeats the purpose.

I'd say an inch of sand between the slab and the brick, with collection drains of some permeable membrane to route water away from structure.

BTW, if this is a multi-level structure, I would guess that the critical level, with regard to drainage, would be the top level - exposed to the weather the most.

steveair
08-17-2000, 07:31 AM
this is a very interesting problem that has crossed my mind a few times also.

I would say setting the pavers with a thin layer of base sand would be the best way to go, as laying on concrete would be a 'wobbly' mess.

How bout this. Maybe setting the pavers in a thin coat of water proof paver pond. IE. float paver bond across the top of the concrete, then set the pavers in that. The numbers for the amount of paver bond used may be 'astronomical', but would be like setting tiles in thin set, but the bond would have some flex, yet not allow the pavers to wobble. Only thing is, the concrete base had better be 'perfect'.

I would say be a part of the project and have a decision on who does the initial concrete work. A poor job here and your job of setting pavers could be a nightmare.

This subject is interesting to me because I have thought about setting pavers in a shop floor.

We have custom hangers being built here, and I thought it would be awesome to have a paver floor instead of a poured concrete floor. People have the money to pay for it, so I think it would sell.

My main problem is this. Waste water. Being a shop, there are bound to be many oil spills, gas spills, etc. Can't figure out if you could have pavers in a situation like this, as all this hazardous waste would sink into the base over time.

By the way, as for pavers, I had a scoop on a 'epoxy coated' paver. A concrete paver with a 'epoxy' finish. Seeing these is what brought my idea up, as oil, gas, etc. could be easily cleanead off the surface.

But, this setting pavers ontop of a solid surface issue is interesting, and look forward to hearing some more ideas.

steveair

Guido
08-17-2000, 07:18 PM
Are you saying that they want pavers but yet, they are going to pour concrete surface first??


Thats the way it sounds, but I still can't understand that??


I guess I'm asking if the concrete is already there or not. If not, what purpose will it serve that a proper base for your pavers won't??

Stonehenge
08-18-2000, 05:22 PM
Steveair -

ICPI put out a brochure about an airport in TX (Dallas-Fort Worth) that used pavers (I'm not sure if it was the whole thing or just the taxiways) to address the fuel/oil problem they sealed it with Siloxane (I think). In any case, I believe there is a sealer that can handle that type spill.

Guido - If this is a multi-level parking structure, you have to hold up the upper levels with concrete (or something that can handle the huge loads that will be present) and span between the supports with conrete. So I think no matter how you slice it, you're going to start with concrete at the bottom of your paver install in this case - how it's built up from there is up for grabs.

steveair
08-18-2000, 05:37 PM
thanks stone,

quick question on the siloxane. Does that fill in the space between the bricks? My concern is the oil/waste seeping through the pavers into the base. Because of waste water managent, they are very strict on flow. If there is to be a drain, then a oil/water seperator must be installed in the hanger. I would think a problem would arrise if the oil/water seperator was installed, but the oil seeped into the pavers and sat there, at least from a 'environmental' view.

If it does 'fill' the joints, then do you still need sand also?

I am unfamiliar with the product, so am very interested.

On the parking structure again, was wondering if they make a product to 'spread' across concrete and float pavers on top of. Maybe similiar to laying ceramic tile/etc, spreadable with a toothed trowel.

Another idea I had was with those new 'plastic' grids they have for setting pavers up (think they have some on the pave/tech probst web site. They use them for the tumbled pavers mainly i believe, As they allow for perfect spacing of each paver. Maybe something like this set up on top of the concrete would allow for some drainage, while at the same time, allow the use of sand and not having them sit directly on the concrete.

Guido
08-18-2000, 06:26 PM
Sorry Guys, I didn't realize it was a multi level structure. Must have missed that part, still don't see it?? But anyway now I know!


Paul, please let us know what happens when you figure it all out!

Stonehenge
08-19-2000, 11:55 AM
Steveair -

Here's the text as it appears in the ICPI material:

"Stabilization of the joint sand by a sealer applied after final compaction is necessary in interlocking concrete airfield pavements to prevent ingestion of sand into aircraft engines. A high-solids-content, UV-stable urethane is typically used to stabilize joint sand in airport applications because it has a high resistance to oils and fuel, and it remains flexible in most climates. However, a siloxane material, rather than a urethane, was substituted to save expense. While the siloxane material provided initial stabilization, joint sand eroded from some joints over time."

The airport was going to fill eroded joints and reseal with urethane.

Hope this helps.

steveair
08-19-2000, 11:21 PM
Lol,

that makes me laugh because we dump tons of sand on our main runway all winter long..........and imagine being concerned about that micro-minuscule amount coming out of the pavers........

Anyway, thanks again for the great info. I should look into ICPI and into the dallas airport records for more info.

By the way, I asked a friend today who does a large portion of work and he really had no answer at all either. He said he has seen the sand on top of the cement done and that after a good winter full of frost heave, the pavers were a mess.

Getting the water to drain is the key here, or stopping water from getting in at all is the other key. The sand will hold too much water I'm afraid and will not drain.

Someone has had to have done this and have a way to solve the problem. Just a matter of finding that person maybe.

My only real solution would be to lay them wet, like a masonry brick job, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having a 'paver' installer do the the work and not a mason.

steveair

Guido
08-20-2000, 05:06 AM
Sand on the runway????? Man, your lucky not to have any jets there, we can't put sand anywhere near our airfield. We have a sweeper on it 24 hours a day. They say that if a 1/4" pebble gets sucked into the intake ona F-16 the right way, it can FOD out. I don't really believe it, but we have to do what they say.

Paul, prob the best way to find out is to call the company your going to purchase the pavers from and ask one of their enineers about it.

steveair
08-20-2000, 10:14 PM
Lol,

more than half our traffic is jet traffic.......along with most of our tennants have jets. I never understood how we get away with it....but then again, I also mow the edge of the active runway during the day while full operations are going on......think that might cause some debris on the runway?.....

steveair

pete
08-23-2000, 03:14 PM
What about stamped concrete? Might be a good compromise. If you had to do pavers it seems to me that you would have to set them in some kind of a mortar bed, like you would for flagstone. Maybe useing somekind of a epoxy admix as a thin grout for inbetween the pavers.

paul
08-23-2000, 09:56 PM
Wow, I should go away more often 14 posts on this.

Pavers where selected because the roof of the structure would would be seen from the street, thus tieing in with the streetscape. Pavers also give the option of replacement of broken or cracked brick verse stamped concrete or other options.

All roofing installs, the problems of expansion joints in the precast concrete or poured concrete are solved with fabric glued to the top of the concrete with some give along the joint, the bedding layer will be sand screeded out to 3/8" compacted to 1/4". This allows for a smaller amout of water to seep under the pavers and but still gives some float for movement along the joints of the pavers plus pavers having there own built in expansion joints and made of like materials movement will be minized. Thus water seepage will be controled.