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Roger1962
08-01-2012, 03:52 PM
Tired of watching my yard blow away so I am finalizing bids for my irrigation system.

I have two front runners based on reputation and quality of work. Both have good references. I had a bid of 4200 for a comparable Toro system but the reviews on the company were horrible across the board so I have tossed that

One is a Rainbird system Specs are as follows:

$3800.00 cost

1= rainbird esp modular controller
12= 1' rainbird dv100 series valve
32= rainbird 5000 series rotor
2= rainbird 1800 series spray
1= irritrol wireless rainsensor
1= 3/4 inch wilkens 950 xl model dual check backflow preventer
2 year guarantee from leaks
winterization free the fall of 2012
1" pvc class 200 psi rated water main line
1" poly pipe 80 psi rated

The other is a Hunter system specs are as follows:

$4900.00 cost

32 Hunter PGP Turf Rotors
11 Hunter PGV 1" control Valves
1 Febco 3/4" Backflow preventer
1 Hunter Pro-C 12 station controller
1 Hunter Rain Clik Rain Sensor
2012 Fall Closedown
no info on lines or pipe

The Rainbird guy said that he could do Hunter or Weathermatic as well but it is unclear as to whether there would be a price difference. I could use some opinions on Rainbird vs. Hunter.

This is a big investment so I want to try and get some unbiased input (meaning not trying to sell me). Thanks in advance for taking the time to help out.

Thanks

Roger W.

Stuttering Stan
08-01-2012, 04:05 PM
Hunter and RB components are interchangeable. I'd would be more concerned with the quality of installation, irrigation design, and contractor reliability.
Don't focus on materials. Do focus on the knowledge and reputation of the contractor.

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 04:24 PM
Thanks Stan. The Hunter guy is a little larger scale company but the referrals from both were very solid. They were both referred by people I trust. The RainBird guy was referred by my lawn guy who I know does not refer people lightly as he knows when he does their reputations become intertwined. The designs are very similar as are the warranties, etc.

The Hunter guy had good creds from Angie's List but got trashed on Google reviews so I don't quite know what to make of that. The Rainbird guy has a reference list but we know what those are really worth...would you give a number of an UNSATISFIED client for a reference? ...lol

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 04:40 PM
It is possible to do extremely good work using Toro components, but you have to pick and choose

the only possible head-shaker is the 80 psi poly pipe, but this is in absence of location and locally available brand names of poly, and to be fair, I know of 80 psi poly that has held up for 40 years

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 05:27 PM
Yes...what is you location Roger?

Very conservative on the zoning. What reasons did they give you for using 3/4" backflow assembly's, as opposed to 1"?

Is the Febco a PVB, or a dual check like the Wilkens?

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 05:54 PM
I am in Foristell MO and I am not sure on the reason for the 3/4 backflow. I will ask. I am on a well with a 3/4 hp pump set at 340ft in a deep well of over 640ft. It is putting out about 7-8gpm at the hose bib so the pressure is not that great. As far as Toro equipment I didn't kill the idea of Toro just the contractor that proposed it.

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 05:54 PM
I can see more 3/4 backflow with more 3/4 copper plumbing, from 5/8 basement water meters, what with the material costs. It would probably be cheaper to add a zone, than to spend more on copper trying to maximize system flow.

from a 7 gpm well, you lose very little with 3/4-inch plumbing

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 05:59 PM
I am only getting three heads per zone max. I thought about upgrading the pump but it gets pricey

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 06:06 PM
Deep well. Around here 35' deep is not uncommon.

The dual check will steal valuable psi. Maybe you have areas to irrigate that are elevated compared to your backflow device location?

Looks to be no brain-er decision for you.

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 06:13 PM
I'm not sure whether Missouri uses one of the regional codes. If not, the DCVA could apply.

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 06:17 PM
Yes I do have elevated areas. My lawn (and I use that term very loosely) slopes pretty heavily from front to back and the backflow is going to be at the rear corner of the home about 3/4 of the way down the slope.

It is looking like a no-brainer to me too plus the rainbird guy can install about two weeks sooner

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 06:26 PM
equipment aside, I would make the recommendation to add a strainer to the system supply, something I do for all well-water supplies

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 06:32 PM
Are you concerned about staining Roger?

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 06:35 PM
I don't know if I need to be concerned. I don't have a water filter and I haven't found any noticeable grit. I guess I should ask that question though eh?

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 06:41 PM
Well water here stains horribly.

A Rid-O-Rust system would be recommended.

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 06:44 PM
I guess I am lucky, we have never in 14 years had an issue with staining. Not even monir discoloration. Our water is awesome. So much so that I don't even drink water of it isn't from my house or bottled. City water tastes horrible

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 06:53 PM
A strainer costs less than a hundred to add to above-ground PVC plumbing, and the aggravation to discover that there is some grit in the water, especially after hours of continuous pumping, could run into four figures.

Roger1962
08-01-2012, 07:00 PM
A strainer costs less than a hundred to add to above-ground PVC plumbing, and the aggravation to discover that there is some grit in the water, especially after hours of continuous pumping, could run into four figures.

Great point and I will take that up with the contractor tomorrow morning. Do the prices seem reasonable? I hate to ask that question but it does nag at you ...lol

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 07:18 PM
Prices are a bargain to me, but I'm here and not there.

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 07:40 PM
Your "Rainbird guy" is giving you a good price. Heck, they both are...for this area.

grassman177
08-01-2012, 07:41 PM
proper design is key, then comes proper installation. price, for the most part should be the last thing you consider after the others are made clear and good. matched precipitation is the one thing that gets missed here by tons of installers. check to ensure that practice is being used.

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 08:27 PM
The designs are very similar....

Care to share them?

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 08:33 PM
One difference maker, and worth the price to include ~ marlex-ell swing joints for each head

Mike Leary
08-01-2012, 08:58 PM
On doctor's orders,:::Backs out of thread::::

Wet_Boots
08-01-2012, 09:36 PM
On doctor's orders,:::Backs out of thread::::think pleasant thoughts

muddywater
08-01-2012, 10:22 PM
On my well systems, i install rainbird peb valves. They are a more expensive valve and would probably add $600 in material costs, but down here well water is a little slimey and can cause valves to stick open. The peb is a scrubber valve and i have had good luck with them on systems with wells.

How far apart are the heads from each other?

Dripit good
08-01-2012, 10:36 PM
On my well systems, i install rainbird peb valves. They are a more expensive valve and would probably add $600 in material costs...

The difference between 12 dv's vs 12 peb's = $600.00 your cost?

Where are you shopping?

mitchgo
08-01-2012, 11:04 PM
Did anyone suggest a holding tank with a pump thus reducing the amount of zones?

Roger1962
08-02-2012, 01:05 AM
proper design is key, then comes proper installation. price, for the most part should be the last thing you consider after the others are made clear and good. matched precipitation is the one thing that gets missed here by tons of installers. check to ensure that practice is being used.

I totally agree. Can you give me a quick explanation of "matched precip"?

Roger1962
08-02-2012, 01:06 AM
Care to share them?

I will scan them in tomorrow if I can get time. Right now I have the sketches but should have the formal designs tomorrow I hope

Roger1962
08-02-2012, 01:10 AM
Did anyone suggest a holding tank with a pump thus reducing the amount of zones?
Nobody has mentioned a holding tank with a pump. I would have to have the contractors check on that for me

Roger1962
08-02-2012, 01:12 AM
On my well systems, i install rainbird peb valves. They are a more expensive valve and would probably add $600 in material costs, but down here well water is a little slimey and can cause valves to stick open. The peb is a scrubber valve and i have had good luck with them on systems with wells.

How far apart are the heads from each other?
not exactly sure yet Mud. I am walking the site tomorrow morning with one of the contractors and waiting for the scaled drawing from the other

Roger1962
08-02-2012, 01:15 AM
think pleasant thoughts
I think that's my ex-wife!!!

1idejim
08-02-2012, 02:35 AM
On doctor's orders,:::Backs out of thread::::

lost me when the OP posted pricing.
Posted via Mobile Device you taking kiril to montana with you?

grassman177
08-02-2012, 03:32 AM
I totally agree. Can you give me a quick explanation of "matched precip"?

to make it really easy, the nozzles of the sprinkler heads should NOT be all the same. They should be nozzled based on the degree of a circle they are covering, 90, 180, 360 etc. the nozzle in a 180 for ex, should be twice the size of the 90, and so on. it is basic to anyone with knowledge of design, but I just see it missed so often it is not funny.

bad explination, sorry, but after all it is 1:30 am:sleeping:

AI Inc
08-02-2012, 07:01 AM
Yes...what is you location Roger?

Very conservative on the zoning. What reasons did they give you for using 3/4" backflow assembly's, as opposed to 1"?

Is the Febco a PVB, or a dual check like the Wilkens?

Wondered about both myself , 3 heads per zone.

AI Inc
08-02-2012, 07:06 AM
On my well systems, i install rainbird peb valves. They are a more expensive valve and would probably add $600 in material costs, but down here well water is a little slimey and can cause valves to stick open. The peb is a scrubber valve and i have had good luck with them on systems with wells.

How far apart are the heads from each other?

Anyone try the new rainbird reverse flow valves yet? If stuck , they stick closed.


"The valve’s heavy-duty construction ensures hassle-free performance for years to come, even in the most challenging environments. If a rare valve failure should occur, the HV Valve’s reverse-flow design guarantees that it fails in the closed position to prevent flooding, water waste and landscape damage."


http://www.rainbird.com/corporate/press/releases/HV.htm

AI Inc
08-02-2012, 07:07 AM
Nobody has mentioned a holding tank with a pump. I would have to have the contractors check on that for me

7-8 GPM there is no need if designed properly.

muddywater
08-02-2012, 07:17 AM
The difference between 12 dv's vs 12 peb's = $600.00 your cost?

Where are you shopping?

JDL... what do you pay? I might end up paying a little less with a job credit.

muddywater
08-02-2012, 07:23 AM
Anyone try the new rainbird reverse flow valves yet? If stuck , they stick closed.


"The valve’s heavy-duty construction ensures hassle-free performance for years to come, even in the most challenging environments. If a rare valve failure should occur, the HV Valve’s reverse-flow design guarantees that it fails in the closed position to prevent flooding, water waste and landscape damage."


http://www.rainbird.com/corporate/press/releases/HV.htm

That is pretty neat. I like the 4 screws. Although I think I am going to stick to dv100s for a while. All the pga valves I put in last year are all imploding. Rainbird has stopped production of them because so many failures.

Wet_Boots
08-02-2012, 09:01 AM
Anyone try the new rainbird reverse flow valves yet? If stuck , they stick closed.


"The valve’s heavy-duty construction ensures hassle-free performance for years to come, even in the most challenging environments. If a rare valve failure should occur, the HV Valve’s reverse-flow design guarantees that it fails in the closed position to prevent flooding, water waste and landscape damage."


http://www.rainbird.com/corporate/press/releases/HV.htmRichdel R204 valves weren't reverse-flow, but they fail closed :)

is the solenoid on the HV the same as the DV?

Wet_Boots
08-02-2012, 12:11 PM
Richdel R204 valves weren't reverse-flow, but they fail closed :)

is the solenoid on the HV the same as the DV?question answered by the spec page on the HV valve ~ .25 amp inrush current and .143 amp hold current at 24VAC ~ different solenoid, at least electrically

AI Inc
08-03-2012, 07:14 AM
That is pretty neat. I like the 4 screws. Although I think I am going to stick to dv100s for a while. All the pga valves I put in last year are all imploding. Rainbird has stopped production of them because so many failures.

I also prefer to let others be the quinea pig. If its good , maybe in 2 yrs switch.

Wet_Boots
08-03-2012, 07:26 AM
I wonder if they'll make a slip version of the HV

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:02 PM
Anyone try the new rainbird reverse flow valves yet? If stuck , they stick closed.


"The valve’s heavy-duty construction ensures hassle-free performance for years to come, even in the most challenging environments. If a rare valve failure should occur, the HV Valve’s reverse-flow design guarantees that it fails in the closed position to prevent flooding, water waste and landscape damage."


http://www.rainbird.com/corporate/press/releases/HV.htm

This statement should be clearer. It refers to a puncture of the diaphragm. Unfortunately, there are ways for valves to stick open regardless if they are forward or reverse flow designs.

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:05 PM
That is pretty neat. I like the 4 screws. Although I think I am going to stick to dv100s for a while. All the pga valves I put in last year are all imploding. Rainbird has stopped production of them because so many failures.

The PGA is available once again after a significant upgrade. Check it out.
http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/valves/PGAseries.htm

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:08 PM
All the pga valves I put in last year are all imploding.

Contact your Rain Bird representative for help.

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:11 PM
Richdel R204 valves weren't reverse-flow, but they fail closed :)

is the solenoid on the HV the same as the DV?

Forward flow valves fail open when the diaphragm is punctured, the opposite of reverse flow valve. Rain Bird makes both forward flow and reverse flow valves. It is not clear to me that there is a clear choice on which is better.

The solenoid is different. Not only is it different electrically, but the threads are a different diameter. The HV has a smaller thread and smaller area exposed to the water pressure inside the valve. That makes it easier to turn by hand at high pressure. We don't have to install a handle for the solenoid on the HV which helps us keep cost down.

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:17 PM
question answered by the spec page on the HV valve ~ .25 amp inrush current and .143 amp hold current at 24VAC ~ different solenoid, at least electrically

Those are the electrical specifications before a change we made in late 2013 to address very hot conditions in areas like Texas where overnight lows were 83 degrees and higher. We needed to improve performance in those areas, so we added more turns to the coil to reduce operating temperature. Here are the new specifications from the website. They were undetermined at press time for the 2014 catalog, so we refer you to the website on parge 77 of the 2014 catalog. The website will always have the most current information.

24 VAC 50/60 Hz (cycles/sec.) solenoid
Inrush current: 0.290 A at 60 Hz
Holding current: 0.091 A at 60 Hz
Coil resistance: 70-85 Ohms
(40° F - 110° F ambient)

http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/valves/HV.htm

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:18 PM
I wonder if they'll make a slip version of the HV

Yes. HV and HVF are offered in Slip x Slip models.

irritation
08-04-2014, 09:21 PM
Seems to me you are starting to push the HV valve. Where are they made? China or Mexico?

Ron Wolfarth
08-04-2014, 09:25 PM
Seems to me you are starting to push the HV valve. Where are they made? China or Mexico?

The HV is made in our plant in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico like all Rain Bird valves.

Wet_Boots
08-04-2014, 09:34 PM
Richdel R204 valves weren't reverse-flow, but they fail closed :)This isn't referring to any design features, but to the plastic 'bolt' in the diaphragm assembly that the metering rod passes through, and its propensity to break on very old valves, leading to a valve that won't open. Said plastic bolt is nowadays stainless steel.

Sprinkus
08-04-2014, 10:56 PM
This isn't referring to any design features, but to the plastic 'bolt' in the diaphragm assembly that the metering rod passes through, and its propensity to break on very old valves, leading to a valve that won't open. Said plastic bolt is nowadays stainless steel.

Yup, I dealt with enough of those. The composite ones weren't much better than the plastic ones, glad they went to stainless steel.

Wet_Boots
08-05-2014, 09:04 AM
Yup, I dealt with enough of those. The composite ones weren't much better than the plastic ones, glad they went to stainless steel.I was lucky enough to dodge the composites. I worry a bit that the stainless bolt sliding on the stainless rod will wear. Time will tell.