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View Full Version : Best skid/CTL for dozer type leveling/grading


4 seasons lawn&land
08-09-2012, 07:20 PM
I know I know You cant match a ctl with a dozer but for the lightest jobs you would ever do with a little dozer down to 1/4 that size. What type of skid is least pitchy for leveling out material and best at cutting high spots of ground to do the lightest smallest scale of dozer work? I was thinking the Cat 277's with those long tracks must be pretty good at grading.

Hollowellreid
08-09-2012, 07:33 PM
ASV hands down. stellar grading machines.

I would imagine cat would be a close 2nd with the ASV undercarriage but would lack the balance.

scagrider22
08-09-2012, 08:09 PM
The ASV undercarriage is junk, I sold my Cat with low hours because I had so many problems with the undercarriage. Also my local tool rental switched over to ASV about 5 years ago from New Holland and Bobcat, the ASV machines are always down. I would say they have about 15 newer machines and they usually have 4-5 of them torn down in the shop area. When they had the other brands they didnt have nearly as many issues. Im not sure what the best is but I switched back to New Holland and never have any issues, it also has more power (comparable sized machines) than my Cat did.

bobcat_ron
08-09-2012, 08:32 PM
Our 277C is flawless and even better since the new valve bank was installed, what a hot rod now. The tracks are getting beat up and the rollers on the front are all down to the plastic. The only gripe I have with Cat is the damn anti stall system, after you have cleared through the pile you are knocking over and the anti-stall has been triggered, it keeps the speed to the default crawl speed, you have to stop and return the pilot control to neutral and go forward to resume speed. With the older hydraulic pilot controls the motors would pick up speed as soon as you cleared through.
But give me a Takeuchi anyday, even the new series with the new numbering, all the power and simplicity makes you giddy. It's a great feeling.
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4 seasons lawn&land
08-09-2012, 08:41 PM
what catches my eye about the 277b though is all that track length.. Otherwise all skid steers look the same balance wise

TMlawncare
08-09-2012, 08:45 PM
The ASV undercarriage is junk, I sold my Cat with low hours because I had so many problems with the undercarriage. Also my local tool rental switched over to ASV about 5 years ago from New Holland and Bobcat, the ASV machines are always down. I would say they have about 15 newer machines and they usually have 4-5 of them torn down in the shop area. When they had the other brands they didnt have nearly as many issues. Im not sure what the best is but I switched back to New Holland and never have any issues, it also has more power (comparable sized machines) than my Cat did.

ASV/Terex has the best undercarriage on the market for specific types of work. Too say they are junk is very juvenile. Many who bought the machines new and maintained them have had very few problems especially on the newer designs. For working in the wet, soft areas nothing compares. For ground clearance on the ASV/Terex machines nothing comes even close. Snow removal using track machines, they are widely known as the best. Is there some maintenance involved in owning these machines, yes. Are they junk, lets get real.

bobcat_ron
08-09-2012, 08:49 PM
The 277B's are just awful, look for a newer C model instead, they gave Cat a bad name due to the amount of time it takes to tear the frames apart to replace rollers and other moving parts. The newer C Series is so much easier to work on should it need any replacement parts.
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4 seasons lawn&land
08-09-2012, 08:57 PM
I figure you have to go into those machines with the general knowledge of $8000 every 2000 hours. If they are far better in balance for doing mini dozing then maybe its worth the extra $3-4 an hour but do they perform like they look? They look so long and stable front to back

scagrider22
08-09-2012, 09:14 PM
Not juvenile at all, I bought a very expensive machine brand new and had lots of problems with undercarriage with less than 500 hours I would say that gives me the right to call it junk! And I know many other machines with the same issues. I bought the machine with the intentions of putting 3000 hours on it. I didn't have the problems before the CAT and I don't have them now, I was also told it was the best and believed it just like you, that's why I bought it. It was a relief getting rid of it!
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stuvecorp
08-09-2012, 09:15 PM
465 with VTS or the big TK's

4 seasons lawn&land
08-09-2012, 09:28 PM
less than 500 hours is not acceptable to be having problems. the Taks look pitchy front to back. I know mine is but mine is small and vts tracks look pretty short too...

bobcat_ron
08-09-2012, 09:53 PM
I never had an issue with the "pitchiness" of the shorter track from my Takeuchi, I give their track design a A++ for extreme harsh conditions. VTS is just a bad, bad way to go, you add 30% more weight and work load to the machine and that adds stress on a machine that was designed for tires.
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KrayzKajun
08-09-2012, 09:54 PM
I ran a Mustang MTL25(same as gehl/Tak) w/ a 6way dozer blade on a large clearing job for a buddy. I worked the perimeter of the property doing select clearing, while he cleared the middle with a D5. I really had to over push the machine to get it be tipsy. We had a lot of rain, and I could still get some really good pushes. If I ever come across a MTL20/25 forsalen I will do everything in my power to buy it.
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AEL
08-09-2012, 10:07 PM
Bobcat M series T650-770 or a Kubota svl series. As for pitching, I've never had that issue on a ctl, a good smooth operator can eliminate any pitching issues.

slowleak1
08-09-2012, 10:21 PM
Im going to have to go with the kubota like said above. Compared to the BC and TK, it is much smoother and pushes way harder. I did alot of final grading work on your typical residential yards which came out immaculate, and LOTS of lot grading after demos, and the svl90 will push nearly an entire pile of river sand without hesitation. I was down to about 10 minutes per lot that we graded compared to 25-35 with the TK and 45+ with the BC.

I must admit, when I was told that we were getting a kubota I was super pi$$ed, I thought they were junk compared to the TK tl250 we had. I ate crow big time on that one...

The BC 870 we demo'd was super ncie, and very strong, but I didnt get enough time in the seat to actually test it out.

stuvecorp
08-10-2012, 12:29 AM
less than 500 hours is not acceptable to be having problems. the Taks look pitchy front to back. I know mine is but mine is small and vts tracks look pretty short too...

I never had an issue with the "pitchiness" of the shorter track from my Takeuchi, I give their track design a A++ for extreme harsh conditions. VTS is just a bad, bad way to go, you add 30% more weight and work load to the machine and that adds stress on a machine that was designed for tires.
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My question is how much 'dozing' type grading are you taking about? Is is amazing what the 440 with VTS will do...

Have you seen how long a VTS is on the 465?

I still say the VTS equipped machine is superior to ANY CTL/MTL out there. Ron have you run a VTS equipped machine?

AWJ Services
08-10-2012, 06:33 AM
Any Large CTL will grade excellent.

bobcat_ron
08-10-2012, 06:47 AM
I have never ran any VTS machine, but I still say it's the poor man's answer to a CTL and I would never do it. A lot of the work I do with the 277C is on concrete floors and by all means can be done with a rubber wheeled unit, but it's not like I'm smoking tracks off that machine left right and center due to improper operating techniques.
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Digdeep
08-10-2012, 08:39 AM
I never had an issue with the "pitchiness" of the shorter track from my Takeuchi, I give their track design a A++ for extreme harsh conditions. VTS is just a bad, bad way to go, you add 30% more weight and work load to the machine and that adds stress on a machine that was designed for tires.
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I have it from a very good source at Terex that the VTS is essentially dead and slowly fading into oblivion. It has proven to have a higher cost of warranty than the ASV and everyone sells a CTL now. The accelerated wear on the OEM SSL that it was placed onto was noticeable. OEMs discovered this quickly when it first came out and denied warranty if it had a VTS on the machine and that is why Loegering(ASV) had to provide power train warranty with the purchase of the undercarriage.

Nelson M Martin
08-10-2012, 03:18 PM
Any Large CTL will grade excellent.

I second the statement........
But i will add that an operator with minimal grading experience will find it tricky in a machine with suspension (all ASV's and the Cat machines with the MTL under carriage.
Not saying it cant be done because i have landscaped/graded with such machines.
For precision grading then a solid mounted under carriage makes life easier for the guys with little to no experience

tailboardtech
08-10-2012, 03:22 PM
Im going to have to go with the kubota like said above. Compared to the BC and TK, it is much smoother and pushes way harder. I did alot of final grading work on your typical residential yards which came out immaculate, and LOTS of lot grading after demos, and the svl90 will push nearly an entire pile of river sand without hesitation. I was down to about 10 minutes per lot that we graded compared to 25-35 with the TK and 45+ with the BC.

I must admit, when I was told that we were getting a kubota I was super pi$$ed, I thought they were junk compared to the TK tl250 we had. I ate crow big time on that one...

The BC 870 we demo'd was super ncie, and very strong, but I didnt get enough time in the seat to actually test it out.

Exactly this I have had our 90 pushing dirt rolling over the top of the blade and she was still going ( I was having fun with it I will admit)
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talus
08-10-2012, 03:36 PM
ASV/Terex has the best undercarriage on the market for specific types of work. Too say they are junk is very juvenile. Many who bought the machines new and maintained them have had very few problems especially on the newer designs. For working in the wet, soft areas nothing compares. For ground clearance on the ASV/Terex machines nothing comes even close. Snow removal using track machines, they are widely known as the best. Is there some maintenance involved in owning these machines, yes. Are they junk, lets get real.

Very well said and 100% true :clapping:

bobcat_ron
08-10-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm sitting in the cab of the 277C right now, 515 hrs, time flies and the tracks are near new. Taken care of and maintained, they will last 1000+ hours. But I'd rather have a CTL track system though, these MTL's spit rocks in the air when working in round stone.
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alco
08-10-2012, 04:23 PM
Our 277C is flawless and even better since the new valve bank was installed, what a hot rod now. The tracks are getting beat up and the rollers on the front are all down to the plastic.

I'm sitting in the cab of the 277C right now, 515 hrs, time flies and the tracks are near new.

I'm confused Ron, which one is it? Getting beat up, or near new?

bobcat_ron
08-10-2012, 05:09 PM
Tracks are near new, rollers are beat up.
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4 seasons lawn&land
08-10-2012, 06:31 PM
whats the deal with the new model undercarrage it looks different because its painted yellow now but is it different? the black ones look plastic

4 seasons lawn&land
08-10-2012, 06:35 PM
..........................

bobcat_ron
08-10-2012, 06:43 PM
Look closer, it's so obvious, you'd think that after 2 years, people would just look closer.

bobcatexc
08-10-2012, 06:46 PM
whats the deal with the new model undercarrage it looks different because its painted yellow now but is it different? the black ones look plastic

Are you seriously asking what the difference is between the two track undercarriages?????

4 seasons lawn&land
08-10-2012, 08:12 PM
ya i can see they are different but Im no mechanic, equipment engineer here. I see the bogies and idlers are more protected now. Are all the unpainted ones bad news?

AWJ Services
08-10-2012, 08:14 PM
ya i can see they are different but Im no mechanic, equipment engineer here. I see the bogies and idlers are more protected now. Are all the unpainted ones bad news?

The ASV undercarraige was such a success that Cat did not need to come out with a conventional CTL with a rigid undercarraige? Right?

4 seasons lawn&land
08-10-2012, 08:24 PM
looked up so close up pics. I see the older ones had 2 sets or bogies on each side

TMlawncare
08-10-2012, 09:34 PM
The ASV undercarraige was such a success that Cat did not need to come out with a conventional CTL with a rigid undercarraige? Right?

Almost right. Cat knew that the ASV undercarriage is state of the art for specific applications. This is why Cat bought a stake in the company. Cat also knew that the undercarriage had problems in rocky conditions so they had to develop a rigid platform as well.

4 seasons lawn&land
08-10-2012, 10:11 PM
im confused

talus
08-10-2012, 10:27 PM
im confused

Oh come on man.:laugh:

279
289 = ctl
299



247
257
277 = mtl/ ASV type
287
297

Bleed Green
08-10-2012, 10:33 PM
The CTL's have all steel undercarriages and are more rigid and sturdy it sounds like than the MTL's undercarriages.
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AEL
08-10-2012, 10:55 PM
Ctl is a compact track loader, all steel undercarriages. for example a bobcat , takkie, kubota, johndeere, or any of the 9 series cats. (259,279,289,299) A Mtl is a multi terrain loader, and example would be machines with the suspension undercarriages such as ASV machines, Terex machines, and the cat 7 series(257,277,287,297)

excav8ter
08-10-2012, 11:28 PM
Replaced my D4C with a Takeuchi TL 130 ....never looked back. If I have a job big enough to require a dozer, I sub out the job, or rent it. While I know many guys swear buy the ASV/Cat/Terex undercarriage, I can't see having to spend that kind of $$$$ for U/C maintenance. Skip the suspended U/C and learn how to grade, then it won't ride so rough. :-)

Cornell
08-11-2012, 12:09 AM
Any CTL with a sharp cutting edge IMO

lol

muddywater
08-11-2012, 11:54 AM
My buddy just traded his 287c for a 289c. At 2000 hrs he was looking at 13k for a new undercarriage so he traded. The 289c does not have the traction or stability the 287c does. Not by much but there is a difference.

I have had a tl150 for about a year. It was just too big to haul on our isuzu frr, but i bet that thing is about as close to a dozer as you can get.

Digdeep
08-11-2012, 02:05 PM
My buddy just traded his 287c for a 289c. At 2000 hrs he was looking at 13k for a new undercarriage so he traded. The 289c does not have the traction or stability the 287c does. Not by much but there is a difference.

I have had a tl150 for about a year. It was just too big to haul on our isuzu frr, but i bet that thing is about as close to a dozer as you can get.

its crazy that he was looking at a cost like that because you can buy an entire undercarriage from a Terex dealer for the C series for about $8,500- set of tracks, fully assembled sprockets and every bogie and idler in the entire undercarriage. $5,695 for an entire 247/257 undercarriage.

AWJ Services
08-11-2012, 04:00 PM
its crazy that he was looking at a cost like that because you can buy an entire undercarriage from a Terex dealer for the C series for about $8,500- set of tracks, fully assembled sprockets and every bogie and idler in the entire undercarriage. $5,695 for an entire 247/257 undercarriage.

8500+ tracks+ labor+sales tax= what?

muddywater
08-11-2012, 05:13 PM
its crazy that he was looking at a cost like that because you can buy an entire undercarriage from a Terex dealer for the C series for about $8,500- set of tracks, fully assembled sprockets and every bogie and idler in the entire undercarriage. $5,695 for an entire 247/257 undercarriage.

No you cannot. I personally checked w 5 dealers for him. I think the lowest was actually 12k for an entire undercarriage w shipping, that was 5% above cost. This is parts only. Other dealers wanted 16k.
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excav8ter
08-11-2012, 07:02 PM
No you cannot. I personally checked w 5 dealers for him. I think the lowest was actually 12k for an entire undercarriage w shipping, that was 5% above cost. This is parts only. Other dealers wanted 16k.
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That is INSANE! What do you figure is the cost per hour for just undercarriage wear? I know those Cat/ASV/Terex machines can be decent, but that kind of cost, would really eat into profits. I am running around $2.34/hr in UC wear on my TL130.

AWJ Services
08-11-2012, 07:13 PM
The smaller ASV machines do have comparable operating expenses to a CTL. The large machines is where the different cost per hour starts to really come into play. The ASV large machines are tough on undercarraiges.

Most CTL machines will need tracks at 1000 hours give or take. Oem will set you back 3500 on the big machines. Aftermarket will be around 2500.

excav8ter
08-11-2012, 07:21 PM
The smaller ASV machines do have comparable operating expenses to a CTL. The large machines is where the different cost per hour starts to really come into play. The ASV large machines are tough on undercarraiges.

Most CTL machines will need tracks at 1000 hours give or take. Oem will set you back 3500 on the big machines. Aftermarket will be around 2500.

I just put Solideal B pattern tracks and Sprockets on my machine for under $2400....including labor. OEM was going to be around $4,000

muddywater
08-11-2012, 08:55 PM
That is INSANE! What do you figure is the cost per hour for just undercarriage wear? I know those Cat/ASV/Terex machines can be decent, but that kind of cost, would really eat into profits. I am running around $2.34/hr in UC wear on my TL130.

And that 13k doesnt include the tracks, few bogies, and sprocket rebuild he did at 1100 hrs. And he mainly stays in dirt with very little gravel or rocky conditions
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ksss
08-11-2012, 09:12 PM
That is INSANE! What do you figure is the cost per hour for just undercarriage wear? I know those Cat/ASV/Terex machines can be decent, but that kind of cost, would really eat into profits. I am running around $2.34/hr in UC wear on my TL130.

It is insane. The ASV undercarriage on an ASV has a place in the market on certain jobs and certain environments. Keep it in its "zone" and you can be happy with the costs and performance. Those machines will grip uneven ground like no other undercarriage. They are quiet (my favorite feature) and they of course ride better. ASV built their superstructures around the suspension, no one knows the quirks and abilities better than ASV of that system. So why they let CAT go so far out of bounce I can only guess (probably $$$).

CAT's grafting of the ASV undercarriage to their machine has an even smaller "zone". Due to excess weight, mounting issues, and weight distribution problems.

ASV marketed their machine as a niche machine which is what it is. CAT marketed the MTL as a replacement for a CTL which it is not.

CAT learned quickly that it stepped right off the cliff with the MTL. Example would be building wheeled skid steers that were purpose built to handle the VTS tracks and use those machines in their own rental fleets, why? because the costs to run their own MTL's were, well, insane even for CAT and some years later "forgetting" their own marketing hype and finally conceding the issue and building their own CTL. The resale of an MTL should be a evidence enough of the issues that this machine is known for. Doubters? Check Iron Planet which is the dumping ground for CAT. See what they they actually sell for, compare projected purchase price and divide by the hours. You will have a rough number on the asskicking somone took on the machine. I have seen some machines with nearly a $50 an hour cost of ownership just in depreciation.

In my opinion the MTL is only "decent" for a select number of customers, thats obvious by the introduction of their own CTL. I think CAT should be fortunate that many of the first owners of the MTL's didnt band together and file a class action lawsuit against CAT (who knows maybe some did). The machines were clearly oversold and many customers mislead as to the suitability of the machine in tough ground conditions.

Local CAT dealer when I demoed a 279 would not even allow me to consider an MTL (not that I needed his protection). Here they will sell those to landscapers only. Every one else was speced a VTS or recently a CTL. This is a high desert environment (read dry and rocky) so life even for a CTL is tough.

If you want a true Multi Terrain Loader buy a CTL.

White Gardens
08-11-2012, 10:13 PM
I tell you what, just reading this thread and the cost to maintain a tracked SS makes me realize I never want to own one.....

My mini skid with 150.00 rollers and 400.00 set for tracks are fine with me.

....

4 seasons lawn&land
08-11-2012, 10:16 PM
I tell you what, just reading this thread and the cost to maintain a tracked SS makes me realize I never want to own one.....

My mini skid with 150.00 rollers and 400.00 set for tracks are fine with me.

....

your not reading very closly then.

muddywater
08-11-2012, 11:08 PM
I tell you what, just reading this thread and the cost to maintain a tracked SS makes me realize I never want to own one.....

My mini skid with 150.00 rollers and 400.00 set for tracks are fine with me.

....

Cost are minimal on most ctls w aftermarket parts. On my tl140, tracks last 1000hrs with alot of pavement use, sprockets last 2000hrs, and i think i will get at least 2000hrs out of bogies.

I can get tracks for $2200 a set, sprockets for $500 a set, and bogies are about $200 a piece.

On mini skids the tracks seem to last about 500 hrs.

Mini's are freakin awesome, but sometimes you gotta have the big boy.

And i change all my components myself. I can even get install a derailed track on a jobsite with a grease gun and a couple wrenches.

There is one youtube video that changed my life on track changes even on large ctls. I can do two tracks in an hour with a dingo helping.

Digdeep
08-12-2012, 01:02 PM
No you cannot. I personally checked w 5 dealers for him. I think the lowest was actually 12k for an entire undercarriage w shipping, that was 5% above cost. This is parts only. Other dealers wanted 16k.
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I'm confused. I thought for sure you said you got a quote for $8k from one dealer.:confused: The part number on the mailer I got from my dealer that would fit a C series is 340404-283 with a list price of $8,495.00, the same kit for a 247/257 is part#340404-275 and the price is $5,695.00. These kits include a set of tracks, two fully assembled sprockets, and all the bogies and idlers in the entire undercarriage including all the mounting hardware. I think someone mentioned the cost of labor, but it really isn't that hard to bolt on wheels, replace tracks, etc. in a home shop. Most do some of their own work anyway.

In any case, the market has grown to a point that there is a machine out there for anyone that will fit their needs best for the type of work they do and I'm glad your buddy found a machine he's happy with.

muddywater
08-12-2012, 01:09 PM
No he quoted me 10,500, but then called me back and said that was dealer cost. Came close to 12k shipped which was reasonable compared to other dealers.

That mailer must have been old. I called several dealers w that part number. Have you called any dealers to confirm that price?

Well he actually liked the 287c better, but they are just stupid expensive to keep running.
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Digdeep
08-12-2012, 01:22 PM
No he quoted me 10,500, but then called me back and said that was dealer cost. Came close to 12k shipped which was reasonable compared to other dealers.

That mailer must have been old. I called several dealers w that part number. Have you called any dealers to confirm that price?

Well he actually liked the 287c better, but they are just stupid expensive to keep running.
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My mistake. I thought you PM'd me $8k on one quote and $14k on the other. Sounds like the dealer is jacking the price up.

muddywater
08-12-2012, 03:22 PM
Went back and looked at those pms. They quoted me 8k first, then called me back and said ithat was below their cost, and gave me a price of 11k shipped. Other dealers were at 14k plus.

Cat wants 20k for the same thing.
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TMlawncare
08-12-2012, 06:50 PM
Went back and looked at those pms. They quoted me 8k first, then called me back and said ithat was below their cost, and gave me a price of 11k shipped. Other dealers were at 14k plus.

Cat wants 20k for the same thing.
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The dealer is screwing with you. Some serious profit padding going on. On a Terex pt80 you can get the whole undercarriage (tracks, bogies, squirrel cage) for $8800. On the Terex pt30 it is $5600. All OEM parts. Most of the time you don't even need to replace everything so the cost can be much less. If you have a dealer quoting numbers in the 14-20k range make the itemize the cost for you. I guarantee you there is not that many parts in the undercarriage. The parts are expensive but nothing like that.

muddywater
08-12-2012, 07:11 PM
The dealer is screwing with you. Some serious profit padding going on. On a Terex pt80 you can get the whole undercarriage (tracks, bogies, squirrel cage) for $8800. On the Terex pt30 it is $5600. All OEM parts. Most of the time you don't even need to replace everything so the cost can be much less. If you have a dealer quoting numbers in the 14-20k range make the itemize the cost for you. I guarantee you there is not that many parts in the undercarriage. The parts are expensive but nothing like that.

What is the dealer's number? They said they were quoting 5-10% above cost.

And have you ever bought anything from a CAT dealer? Their parts are always insane.

muddywater
08-12-2012, 07:16 PM
Lets say the undercarriage cost 9k shipped. He has already spend 4k on tracks and 2k on miscellaneous bogies and squirrel cage parts at 1000 hours. That is 15k in 2000hrs. My takeuchi will probably run 4500 in two sets of tracks, 500 in sprockets, and lets say 800 in a four bogie wheels. And in reality I can probably get the local bearing supply place to fit me up with some bearings for it for $50 a bogie. That is 6k vs 15k in undercarriage costs over 2000hrs. Is an ASV 9k more productive? Not for me, I would rather have that money in the bank.

TMlawncare
08-12-2012, 08:18 PM
You can go to trackloaderparts.com. They have all OEM parts. You can look everything up yourself or give them a call for package pricing. Good ammo to have when you go visit the dealer.

muddywater
08-12-2012, 08:58 PM
You can go to trackloaderparts.com. They have all OEM parts. You can look everything up yourself or give them a call for package pricing. Good ammo to have when you go visit the dealer.

So where can you get that kit for $8500? The website? Which dealer quoted you $8500?

treemover
08-12-2012, 11:04 PM
back to the original poster...

stay away from the MTL's they will eat your ass. I liked them, graded nice, rode nice and I pushed snow with them. Had a 257b2 and a 277c. We landscape and do excavating. We were always working on them, idlers, bogies, mtl sprockets, ripping drive lugs off, replacing with bair aftermarket lugs, ripped those off, track are weak(no steel in them)

I could go on and on. If you want a machine that will work get a ctl. all of them will work(i think) all have pluses and minuses. For what its worth I am currently running deere 329's. Big powerful machines and we love them. Just a pain to pull on a bumper trailer behind a single wheel truck!

Good luck

talus
08-21-2012, 09:17 PM
I must be doing something right. 493 hours now and not one issue. No doubt they are not as durable as a ctl style. The only thing I can see that will tear them up in a hurry is crushed stone and maybe mulching with one. I have yet to rip any drive lugs off or the constant maintenance others speak of. When it's muddy I wash it out. Thats it. I still blame Cat for the bad rep that stuck with the MTL style. Maybe the balance has something to do with it?

muddywater
08-21-2012, 10:00 PM
I think it gets a little nasty at 1000hrs, then you get puked on at 2000hrs.

talus
08-21-2012, 10:32 PM
Time will tell.

Digdeep
08-22-2012, 07:24 AM
I think it gets a little nasty at 1000hrs, then you get puked on at 2000hrs.

I have an RC50 that has well over both your figures and it's been far more reliable than any of the Bobcat CTLs I sold over the 8 years I was selling them. ASV is still making their machines after 28 years in the CTL business so they must have gotten a few things right (I think Terex is a bigger threat to their existence than any OEM and will destroy the company because they have a weak dealership network and poor management). Also, over half of the CTLs ever built up through 2010 had an ASV undercarriage on them. They still have their place with lots of satisfied customers just like Bobcat, Takeuchi, Deere, CAT, Case, etc.

muddywater
08-22-2012, 08:18 AM
That asv rc50 is a light machine. I think the heavier machines but more wear on the undercarriage.

I have flipped a few asvs over the years, rc 80, rc 100, rc 50, rc 60, and rc 30. The heavier machines show much more wear.
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Digdeep
08-22-2012, 09:01 AM
That asv rc50 is a light machine. I think the heavier machines but more wear on the undercarriage.

I have flipped a few asvs over the years, rc 80, rc 100, rc 50, rc 60, and rc 30. The heavier machines show much more wear.
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I think you hit the nail on the head. ASV builds their machines around an undercarriage to match weight, balance and hp to weight ratios. CAT takes an existing undercarriage and bolts it to an existing skid chassis. CAT's 247, 277 and 287s performed relatively well concerning their operating weights with the exception of their weight oriented significantly to the rear on their vertical lift machines. IMO the 257 should never have happened because it is just plain too heavy and has too much weight on the A$$ of the machine.

The PT60 has the exact same undercarriage and it only weighs about 6300lbs compared to the 257 coming in at just over 8000lbs. That's a 20%+ weight difference not to mention that a lot of that extra weight is toward the rear of the machine over that small rear idler.

muddywater
08-22-2012, 09:26 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head. ASV builds their machines around an undercarriage to match weight, balance and hp to weight ratios. CAT takes an existing undercarriage and bolts it to an existing skid chassis. CAT's 247, 277 and 287s performed relatively well concerning their operating weights with the exception of their weight oriented significantly to the rear on their vertical lift machines. IMO the 257 should never have happened because it is just plain too heavy and has too much weight on the A$$ of the machine.

The PT60 has the exact same undercarriage and it only weighs about 6300lbs compared to the 257 coming in at just over 8000lbs. That's a 20%+ weight difference not to mention that a lot of that extra weight is toward the rear of the machine over that small rear idler.

I agree the asv's seem better balanced, but I think the weight still is a factor on some of the heavier asv's like the 80 and 100. The ones I bought to resell had about 2000hrs on the undercarriage and they needed a rebuild.

The asv 30s 50s and 60s undercarriage seem to last past 2000 hrs before a rebuild. It might need a few bogies or rear idlers at 2000hrs but not a complete undercarriage.

I have bought and sold a few 257s and they chew up those rear idler wheels fast.

And I have pretty good luck with the bobcat undercarriage. Most of them time, I just have to buy sprockets and maybe a rear idler.

Digdeep
08-22-2012, 10:55 AM
I agree the asv's seem better balanced, but I think the weight still is a factor on some of the heavier asv's like the 80 and 100. The ones I bought to resell had about 2000hrs on the undercarriage and they needed a rebuild.

The asv 30s 50s and 60s undercarriage seem to last past 2000 hrs before a rebuild. It might need a few bogies or rear idlers at 2000hrs but not a complete undercarriage.

I have bought and sold a few 257s and they chew up those rear idler wheels fast.

And I have pretty good luck with the bobcat undercarriage. Most of them time, I just have to buy sprockets and maybe a rear idler.

I would 100% agree with you on the heavier 100s, but I've seen many 80s with original tracks exceed the 2,500hr range (the 80 only weighs about 9000lbs). When ASV came out with the face seals it changed the whole dynamic of the 2000hr rebuild. Now the hubs last thousands of hours and you only have to replace the rubber ring. I can get an entire undercarriage package for my RC50 now for right around $5,600. Even if I replaced the the tracks, sprockets and all the 24 bogies and idlers at 1000hrs it would only cost me $5.60 an hour if I did all the work myself.

The fact that my tracks last about 2000hrs along with my sprocket and all of the middle rollers (front and rear need to be changed more often depending on conditions) probably halve that cost per hour making the cost per hour not much above a wheeled machine, and I can do so much more (and year round) with my 50 than I can with my S220.

Your having good luck with your Bobcat then. They've made some good improvements (opening up the drive motor area and going to face seals), but my buddy still works for the local dealer and he would see a higher range of failures than you're having. Like I said, all of these brands have their strengths and weaknesses.

excav8ter
08-22-2012, 10:07 PM
I would 100% agree with you on the heavier 100s, but I've seen many 80s with original tracks exceed the 2,500hr range (the 80 only weighs about 9000lbs). When ASV came out with the face seals it changed the whole dynamic of the 2000hr rebuild. Now the hubs last thousands of hours and you only have to replace the rubber ring. I can get an entire undercarriage package for my RC50 now for right around $5,600. Even if I replaced the the tracks, sprockets and all the 24 bogies and idlers at 1000hrs it would only cost me $5.60 an hour if I did all the work myself.

The fact that my tracks last about 2000hrs along with my sprocket and all of the middle rollers (front and rear need to be changed more often depending on conditions) probably halve that cost per hour making the cost per hour not much above a wheeled machine, and I can do so much more (and year round) with my 50 than I can with my S220.

Your having good luck with your Bobcat then. They've made some good improvements (opening up the drive motor area and going to face seals), but my buddy still works for the local dealer and he would see a higher range of failures than you're having. Like I said, all of these brands have their strengths and weaknesses.

$5.60/hr!!!!! That's a big expense. My Takki is currently $2.35/hr for UC and track wear. And that's paying to have stuff done.

Digdeep
08-23-2012, 07:12 AM
$5.60/hr!!!!! That's a big expense. My Takki is currently $2.35/hr for UC and track wear. And that's paying to have stuff done.

$5.60 an hour is a worst case as I said in my post. That would be if the entire undercarriage was replaced at 1000 hours. I would calculate my costs to be very near to yours.

excav8ter
08-23-2012, 07:35 AM
$5.60 an hour is a worst case as I said in my post. That would be if the entire undercarriage was replaced at 1000 hours. I would calculate my costs to be very near to yours.

Oh.....that's MUCH better. :)

What type of work does your machine see? I basically use mine as a dozer that can remove concrete, asphalt and curb and gutter, as well as load trucks and go into walkout basements and grade for the concrete guys. Very few guys use ASV type undercarriage machines for heavier excavating work around me. They just don't seem to hold up well. Not that they are bad machines. There are a few concrete guys that run them exclusively and like them a lot, but they don't see too much abuse.

Digdeep
08-23-2012, 03:55 PM
Oh.....that's MUCH better. :)

What type of work does your machine see? I basically use mine as a dozer that can remove concrete, asphalt and curb and gutter, as well as load trucks and go into walkout basements and grade for the concrete guys. Very few guys use ASV type undercarriage machines for heavier excavating work around me. They just don't seem to hold up well. Not that they are bad machines. There are a few concrete guys that run them exclusively and like them a lot, but they don't see too much abuse.

Can't honestly say that concrete work is my machine's primary purpose, but I have used it do some of the same things you mention along with some riprap/erosion control, hardscape pavers for patios, lawn install prep work, brush/debris removal, and yearly brush cutting shooting lanes and trails with a low flow Davco on some QDM land that I hunt on. I work it hard, but at the end of the day it is only a 50hp 5300lb machine.

talus
08-24-2012, 03:20 PM
Ooops I'll try it again lol

muddywater
08-24-2012, 04:51 PM
All original bogies and idlers? Second set of tracks?
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swanny
08-24-2012, 09:11 PM
Those asv 50's and 60's are the perfect size for the track setup.

This is pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkPo0nDGUUY&feature=related

muddywater
08-24-2012, 09:23 PM
Those asv 50's and 60's are the perfect size for the track setup.

This is pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkPo0nDGUUY&feature=related

If they could only pick up a pallet of sod, they would be the perfect landscape mtl.

talus
08-24-2012, 10:44 PM
All original bogies and idlers? Second set of tracks?
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As far as I remember he bought the machine with about 600 hours or so on it. He said the tracks were not new then and had some wear. Say for argument sake the they were brand new at 600 hours. Hes put 1300 on them and still look pretty good. I have almost 500 on mune and the tracks look almost new. I can honestly say the 3000 hour mark isn't out of the question on either of our machines. So the 500 hour high maintenence propaganda bull shii that every other dealer throws around about the mtl's is false. This is proof.

talus
08-24-2012, 10:45 PM
Original bogies lso. I think he replace a bearing in one but will find out.

Digdeep
08-25-2012, 08:38 AM
If they could only pick up a pallet of sod, they would be the perfect landscape mtl.

You nailed my big disappointment with my RC50...it can't get a pallet off of the truck. However, I can carry one around once it's off the truck.

deerewashed
08-31-2012, 07:46 AM
lovin the mustang mtl25, loving all mustang products for that matter.

grnmtnboy
10-16-2012, 10:31 PM
Can't complain with my 262C with the VTS, over 500 hrs. on them and still going strong.