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View Full Version : New chemical rep. wants to change my whole chem program. With Humic acid and coron.


lazyike
08-16-2012, 09:49 PM
I talked with a new chemical rep yesterday about my chemical program. I wanted to tweak it a little bit on the fert side ( I have good weed control).

My spring mix usually consists of .75# of N. through Urea and .35# of K. through murite of potash (per 1,000 sq. ft), Hydrex, sticker, triplet, and 75wdg (in the spring).
Midsummer we will back of the urea to about .50# per 1,000

His suggestion = Spring/ fall - .50# N. through urea, .25#N. through Ammonia Sulfate, 1 gal. of Hydra-Hume (per acre) no K. their version of Hydrex and 992 w/ sticker.
Midsummer - .25# N. through urea and a product called coron @ 3.5 gallons per acre, he said with this I do not have to worry about nitrogen burn if it starts getting dry out after my apps.

I dont know what humic/fulvic acid is and dont need to spend 18.00 a gallon on snake oil if it does not work. What do you guys think of this program? I dont have the problem with spending the extra money if it will benefit's the lawns over my current program but it does almost double my tank cost.

Thanks guys,
Mike

phasthound
08-17-2012, 02:30 PM
There are many benefits to using humic & fluvic acids such as:
Increased root vitality
Improved nutrient uptake
Increased chlorophyll synthesis
Better seed germination
Increased fertilizer retention
Stimulate beneficial microbial activity
Healthier plants

As these improvements occur you should see a reduction in turf problems and some lowering of your overall costs.

RigglePLC
08-17-2012, 10:15 PM
I think you are right, Mike. I would not drop the potash. Nor would I go with half as much nitrogen. No lime, if soil tests show no need. And you need the pre-emergent. Am I correct that you mix everything together in your tank?

However, you might want to try his formula in a side by side comparison. Coran is a well-known liquid slow-release.

The idea that fertilizer burn could occur if it gets hot in the days following the treatment--is unproven--at least to me. Is anybody will to try it?

Smallaxe
08-18-2012, 09:16 AM
Of course anyone who applied anything in the Midwest, between mid-June and mid-August, w/out heavy irrigation this year, shouldn't be in the business at all...

Going with a non-burning organic approach for the purpose of building the soil and the overall health of the plant, is a safe and fine thing to do for the Summer months when most grasses are simply taking a break... I like to get Milorganite down before the heat comes on, something is there and ready to go when it does rain and things do cool down again...

Duekster
08-18-2012, 09:26 AM
I would swap the AS and Urea ratios.
Look for other sources of the humates as a price check.

What about Micro's ?

lazyike
08-18-2012, 02:45 PM
Hmmm, Riggle you are correct we tank mix everything.

So what I am understanding their is some proven science that humics do benifit the lawns. I also beleive the reason for the two diffrent N. sources is because they will be taken into the grass in diffrent ways also the sulfate will be of benifit to the lawn.
When I originally talk with him I posed the question about my urea and murite of potash containing salts and if year after year is dooing more harm than good, I wos looking for an N. and K. source that did not contain salts.
I guess with everything I will just have to run with the program for awhile and see if there is an improvement.

Duekster
08-18-2012, 06:43 PM
Hmmm, Riggle you are correct we tank mix everything.

So what I am understanding their is some proven science that humics do benifit the lawns. I also beleive the reason for the two diffrent N. sources is because they will be taken into the grass in diffrent ways also the sulfate will be of benifit to the lawn.
When I originally talk with him I posed the question about my urea and murite of potash containing salts and if year after year is dooing more harm than good, I wos looking for an N. and K. source that did not contain salts.
I guess with everything I will just have to run with the program for awhile and see if there is an improvement.
Salts are a concern if you have hi clay soils. If they are also hi pH then AS is more better.

If salts are a big concern then look at growth products liquid ferts as they are technical grade with low to no salt.

Skipster
08-19-2012, 05:29 PM
First thing's first: your "chemical rep" is going to sell you whatever makes him the most money. I wouldn't trust any company rep to have your best interests at heart.

That being said, unless you're growing fine turf (like golf, where playability on a small scale matters) or you have specific pH issues, there will be no difference in the N sources. Remember, urea hydrolyzes to NH4, CO2, and H2O, while AmSulf dissociates to NH4 and SO4. They break down into the same N form before plant use.

As for N burn, it's all about salt index. N toxicity could cause similar damage, but you'll see salt burn before N toxicity. The GrowthProducts lines are no more technical grade than dissolving urea in water yourself and spraying it. But, all of their liquid ferts have at least 40% of the N coming from methylene urea, which is a complexed urea, so it has no salt index at all. It's nothing special and nothing proprietary to GP -- it's just the nature of methylene urea. You can buy many different MU products from lots of other companies.

Unless you're into using 100% organic products, you will not find N or K products without salts. Simply put, all mineral fertilizers are salts.

As for humates and fulvates, there is no data indicating that they perform as well or better than mineral fertilizers alone. Salesmen like to sell these things b/c many people don't know squat about plant nutrition, you usually need high rates, and they recommend multiple apps every season for a lot of years before they claim any visible results, so they see it as an easy long-term sell to someone who doesn't know any better.

Don't trust a company rep any farther than you can throw him. I've never met one in my 30+ years in ag and turf who was concerned with anything other than his own paycheck. There are a lot of snake oils and misinformation in this business. You have to be your own advocate.

Trust your own agronomic knowledge before letting salesmen take you for a ride.

lazyike
08-21-2012, 10:09 PM
ok so lets see if I get this right. Some say yes use humic acid, some say there is no benefit, others say use more amonium sufate and some say use less. New chemical program will be better for the lawn, and others say chem rep just wants to upsell.......

I guess it really does not matter as everyone has their own opinion.....

I am not trying to call anyone out on anything. It just seems to me the more I learn the more I get confused.

Duekster
08-22-2012, 08:07 AM
Skipster is correct on the Humates, few studies on them that show that low doses are effective, or offer major corrective benefits and it is expensive. They can work against your herbcide program as well.

If you have a site that needs major corrections to the CEC then the best bet is to use soil ammendments.

The benifit of using them is when feeding some micros. I would not be using them in tank mixes with Herbicides, I will feed them in the late spring and summer.

I have also used them to help suffering SA when the HO over dosed with weed killers.

Skipster
08-22-2012, 11:02 AM
ok so lets see if I get this right. Some say yes use humic acid, some say there is no benefit, others say use more amonium sufate and some say use less. New chemical program will be better for the lawn, and others say chem rep just wants to upsell.......

I guess it really does not matter as everyone has their own opinion.....

I am not trying to call anyone out on anything. It just seems to me the more I learn the more I get confused.

I think what this conversation shows us is that there is more than one way to skin this cat. With fertilizer, there isn't only one right way, there could be hundreds of different fert programs that all deliver excellent results. I would be willing to bet that no two operators on this board do things exactly the same way.

Maybe the best thing I can tell you (without knowing al lthe intimate details of your lawns and programs) is to get back to the basics. Plants need certain nutrients in certain amounts. They get what they can from the soil, then we fill in the gaps.

When it seems like things are getting complicated in my own business, I have to remind myself to get back to the basics.

lazyike
08-22-2012, 09:04 PM
I think what this conversation shows us is that there is more than one way to skin this cat. With fertilizer, there isn't only one right way, there could be hundreds of different fert programs that all deliver excellent results. I would be willing to bet that no two operators on this board do things exactly the same way.

Maybe the best thing I can tell you (without knowing al lthe intimate details of your lawns and programs) is to get back to the basics. Plants need certain nutrients in certain amounts. They get what they can from the soil, then we fill in the gaps.

When it seems like things are getting complicated in my own business, I have to remind myself to get back to the basics.

Thank you!! I had forgot about K.I.S.S. I let this lousy summer ( bad weather conditions) play games with my head, and I was getting caught up in thinking that my program is no good.

whoopassonthebluegrass
08-24-2012, 10:14 PM
I don't mean to offend fans of the product, but to be blunt: Humates are snake oil.

The foremost turfgrass PhD here in UT was a professor of mine at USU and we reviewed them in depth.

Long story short: the only results humate yielded were a result of the nutrients mixed in with it. Further, Dr. Paul Johnson asserted that the ONLY way humates would be of any benefit would be to bring it in as you would a topsoil and mix it into the dirt as an amendment... prior to establishing turf...

ted putnam
08-24-2012, 11:00 PM
I don't mean to offend fans of the product, but to be blunt: Humates are snake oil.

The foremost turfgrass PhD here in UT was a professor of mine at USU and we reviewed them in depth.

Long story short: the only results humate yielded were a result of the nutrients mixed in with it. Further, Dr. Paul Johnson asserted that the ONLY way humates would be of any benefit would be to bring it in as you would a topsoil and mix it into the dirt as an amendment... prior to establishing turf...

Hmmm....that's the second time today I've heard that same thing...and from 2 separate sources.

Smallaxe
08-25-2012, 08:44 PM
Do the humates provide additional CE sites, or can they provide carbon that may be lacking in the soil???
Are they any different than charcoal???

I would think that a soil completely devoid of any value may benefit from almost anything, but once you reach a certain level of fertility and tilth,,, the h.o. can over-fertilize and over-water to ruin it... we only stay in business if the h.o. ruins a good lawn and we keep making it OK, with aeration and overseeding...

I can't imagine buying humates for the 'cadillac lawn', when the soil has the air pounded out of it, due to excessive watering for example... or a lawn that has the clippings bagged and hauled away, when the SOM is already below 2% on sandy soil,,, for another example...

People who buy this stuff, do it in hopes that it will 'fix' the neglectful cultural practices already engaged... JMO... :)