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View Full Version : Sod Web Worms!!!!!!!!!


LGL
08-22-2012, 05:53 PM
They are reaking havoc here in the northeast, I'm sure its the same elsewhere. Whats a good remedy to suggest to your customers. Something simple? I am not a PCO, therefore I will not treat of course, but they are asking about the problem.

turfmd101
08-22-2012, 08:00 PM
Try power laundry detergent. Something mild like arm
and hammer. Other benefits will follow.
Posted via Mobile Device

Landscape Poet
08-22-2012, 09:41 PM
They are reaking havoc here in the northeast, I'm sure its the same elsewhere. Whats a good remedy to suggest to your customers. Something simple? I am not a PCO, therefore I will not treat of course, but they are asking about the problem.

If your customers can do their own lawns as well as PCO, then they should know the problem and the answer is the way I see it. Network with a local PCO and have the at the ready to diagnose and fix problems for customers for you. But to answer your question a bifen spray applied correctly when you first start to see damage or notice their feces should help suppress them. But again the key is applying the product correctly and if they are having a hard time with sod web worms then they should let a PCO handle their lawn.

cgaengineer
08-22-2012, 09:50 PM
I've seen the moths around here on my home lawn, but today I found a line army worm. No damage as of yet...first saw the moths months ago. I'm guess I will treat next season.
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turfmd101
08-22-2012, 11:10 PM
There's no need to use bifenthrin which has no residual and performs poor under rain wet conditions. Besides, webworms are the least to worry about in terms of "turf damaging insects". All they will do is eat some foliage and go away. The worst that can happen is some unwanted weeds emerge. Stick with cheap soap detergent this time of year. They'll be gone soon enough.
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Landscape Poet
08-22-2012, 11:54 PM
There's no need to use bifenthrin which has no residual and performs poor under rain wet conditions. Besides, webworms are the least to worry about in terms of "turf damaging insects". First would bifen not work well if applied correctly as you are are spraying it directly into the area the insect is actively feeding, the blades and thatchy area. Water to a certain extent will ensure the product gets where it needs to as it will wash over them on its way down correct?


All they will do is eat some foliage and go away. The worst that can happen is some unwanted weeds emerge. Stick with cheap soap detergent this time of year. They'll be gone soon enough.
Posted via Mobile Device I have a couple issues with this statement, not meaning to bust your balls, but I have seen webworm damage make newer turf not recover over the years. Turf which has seemed to be newly established such as newer established sod...does not seem to have the resources to recover as well as more established turf from webworm damange.
Webworm damage and the "worst that can happen is some unwanted weeds" could mean a chance in many circumstances for Bermuda to make itself present. So unwanted weeds now become a issue that will haunt your lawn for awhile.
Last but not least - does applying laundry detergents to the home lawn...does that not risk the chance of putting unneeded P into the lawn/creating a possible leaching situation among many other unknows? I went to my laundry room and read my label of tide. No where on it did it give directions for proper control of TS webworms. So I went to my trailer and pulled out my 7.9% bifen and guess what...there was directions on how to apply to turf for TS webworms.

LGL
08-23-2012, 12:20 AM
Poet, whats with the busting balls of my customers? No need for the antics, just had a friendly question. Web worms are pretty easy to spot even for a customer. Seeing as I am not a PCO, as I stated earlier I don't know what to suggest, hence why I asked. I didn't know if just telling them to put down a granular bug product would cover it or if it needed something specific. Just needed some advice.

turfmd101
08-23-2012, 12:57 AM
I'm not sure if you know how bifenthrin works. When you shake your bifen before you mix, your hoping to mix all the molecules around so when you pour your .5 or .75oz of product into your gallon you have substantial quantities out to be effective. Now throw into account the thatch layer, thick or thin this will effect molecule distribution along with water volume and since webworms don't ingest the molecule (because they are ectoskeleton it absorbs in their system and disrupts their central nervous system you are hoping they contact each other. Soap spreads the entire area insuring contact occurs. Ectoskeleton insects no like soap. Now for "damage ". Turf that has trouble recovering from webworms has underlying issues. If you mow with dull blades you will shred the turf blade tissue causing premature senescence. The plant will shed this foliage completely and it is recoverable unless there are underlying issues. As for just some unwanted weeds. Yes you could get Bermuda or any number of weeds which already exist (as seed) in the soil for every square yard of soil contains about 1,200,000 seeds waiting their turn to germinate under favorable conditions. Meaning Bermuda seeds are already there dormant. Webworm activity doesn't dictate which weeds emerge. It would have happened eventually.
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turfmd101
08-23-2012, 01:17 AM
Wasn't gonna go there but wouldn't be me. As for the P in my detergent suggestion I also mentioned the other benefits. I should send a picture. After my washing machine drains into the landscape like any you use also, my swordfern sits at end of the drain pipe and looks SWEET! I guess If I direct my drain pipe to my webworm effected area you'd be good.
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Keith
08-23-2012, 01:44 AM
Where Floratam or other fast growing variety can recover quickly, some of the slower growing, dwarf varieties of St Augustine do have trouble recovering from worm damage. Webworms and armyworms both. If they mow it down, the runners don't care to be exposed to that amount of direct sunlight. You end up with a few days without rain, and bam, you have a mess. My front yard has had numerous outbreaks over the past two years. Sometimes it's not that bad, other times the damage is significant.

turfmd101
08-23-2012, 02:50 AM
Right, but again, underlying issues. Dwarf varieties, mainly Seville tends to be thatchy from too much nitrogen over it's life. Dwarf varieties tend to have a thatch layer of dead and live stolins. This is already an inherent problem for stolins with roots exposed to the air, they tend to struggle to exist. All the webworms do is expose this issue which will also occur from heavy frost. These same areas will have issues webworms or not. Thatch is why these areas don't recover easily not severe webworms. Armyworms mabe, but not webworms.
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cgaengineer
08-23-2012, 05:14 AM
Laundry detergents in the US no longer contain P...it was banned.
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Landscape Poet
08-23-2012, 07:37 AM
Right, but again, underlying issues. Dwarf varieties, mainly Seville tends to be thatchy from too much nitrogen over it's life. Dwarf varieties tend to have a thatch layer of dead and live stolins. This is already an inherent problem for stolins with roots exposed to the air, they tend to struggle to exist. All the webworms do is expose this issue which will also occur from heavy frost. These same areas will have issues webworms or not. Thatch is why these areas don't recover easily not severe webworms. Armyworms mabe, but not webworms.
Posted via Mobile Device

Turf,

first welcome to the forum. Second I do not doubt your guidance as you appear to understand this stuff better than the common lawn guy like me. However I have yet to see a PCO driving around town with a bucket of tide on the back of their truck.
You concern over getting it into the thatch - would that not be covered with a surfactant added to the bifen. Just asking because this is the most common approach I see to webworms over the years. Besides, have you seen how damn expensive tide has become :confused::confused:

Landscape Poet
08-23-2012, 07:43 AM
Poet, whats with the busting balls of my customers? No need for the antics, just had a friendly question. Web worms are pretty easy to spot even for a customer. Seeing as I am not a PCO, as I stated earlier I don't know what to suggest, hence why I asked. I didn't know if just telling them to put down a granular bug product would cover it or if it needed something specific. Just needed some advice.

No ball busting really just a state of mind. Customer that think they can do it all usually fail, not always but a good enough time, but then they expect you are the lawn guy to have all the answers....so unless your are a card holder PCO too..the chances your information is maybe or may not be correct. Why waste your time with customers asking questions that is not relative to what you are hire to due. I hate customers who ask me question not related to what I do. Lots of times in the past I find these type of customers feel they know more than you anyway...but will waste your time asking questions only to never take your advice. You know what I am saying. If they want advice on subject like this, they should hire a PCO who is qualified. If they want mediocre advice that may or may not be true...send them here to LS.

turfmd101
08-23-2012, 08:12 AM
Tide would be bad, too much fragrant. That's why I suggested arm & hammer. Won't stress the turf. It is also a natural surfactant. You would see a very experienced PCO use this method, ever hear of BMP. If so do you understand it. Just saying bifenthrin for catts is a low experience suggestion. Something like M - PEDE will perform much better. Not trying to get on anybodys bad side but there is probably a general belief here you have to wait 2 weeks to sod after applying glyphosphate.
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turfmd101
08-23-2012, 08:52 AM
You want to bust my ball's hey I like challenges. Just some background (1988-1991 tru-green tech before chemlawn in picture. Bad merger. 1991-1992 took care of Peabody hotel for Ground Control greatest full service company of all time. 1992-1997 field working opps manager, lead tech for large full service providers. 1997-2010 full blown LESCO GUY.2010-current, consultant. All during this practicing BMP and reporting to orange county.) Just want to open minds. Sometimes unorthodox works. Just need enough experience to know to suggest. Me wana play not fight.
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ELS Landscape
08-23-2012, 09:20 AM
How exactly do you report Laundry Detergent on a Orange County pest application record?

turfmd101
08-23-2012, 12:21 PM
There is no reason. It's not a registered pesticide or every time someone washed their vehicle's and the detergent of choice went into the water system or in the soil, if washed on non-cement we would have to report it. thank god. Listen if you understand how resistance to pesticides evolves it would only be logical to let home owners use something that if poorly applied will not add to another molecule becoming useless. I read in another thread an analogy. " Why should I have to have license to apply insecticides, I don't need to be a licensed plumber to fix the plumbing in my house." Bad analogy! successful pesticide applications require a knowledge of science. Instead of a plumber should have used a DR. I'm not a human doctor but I would only use a licensed DR to perform medical aid I would not prescribe medicine for which I don't understand the AI.

ELS Landscape
08-23-2012, 03:37 PM
There is no reason. It's not a registered pesticide or every time someone washed their vehicle's and the detergent of choice went into the water system or in the soil, if washed on non-cement we would have to report it. thank god. Listen if you understand how resistance to pesticides evolves it would only be logical to let home owners use something that if poorly applied will not add to another molecule becoming useless. I read in another thread an analogy. " Why should I have to have license to apply insecticides, I don't need to be a licensed plumber to fix the plumbing in my house." Bad analogy! successful pesticide applications require a knowledge of science. Instead of a plumber should have used a DR. I'm not a human doctor but I would only use a licensed DR to perform medical aid I would not prescribe medicine for which I don't understand the AI.

HO can do a lot of things but as a contractor, I can not put down detergent as a pest control agent.

The EPA regulates such things if you make the claim it will control pest. Also, everything in the mix has to be listed if a pest control application is made even if you are not using a registered product.

bugsNbows
08-23-2012, 04:35 PM
I, as a certified operator won't be putting down soap to control TSW (ELS comments above are correct IMO). If Joe homeowner wants to do that it's his business. Our company will indeed apply Bifen (or other labeled products) to manage TSW numbers when required. Likely our customers would be more satisfied with that.

TurfMD 101- Exoskeleton? Stolons? If you want to be the expert fine, how about utilizing correct terminology / spelling? For the record: I'm state certified in all four categories since June 1978. I have 3 degrees (2 undergraduate, 1 Graduate), over 40 years experience, owned my own PC business, Manager at WDW in Pest Management for 11 years, Extension Agent IFAS in South Florida, written and published articles and delivered countless programs. Ever heard of spell check? Now, I'm not disputing everything you said BUT you're not the only knowledgeable person here. You may wish to keep that in mind. Good day Sir.

turfmd101
08-23-2012, 04:36 PM
That's why your not using it as an insecticide. It's signal word is caution labeled as surfactant. Wetting agents usually are not recorded. But it's a great product enhancer. Wonder how many customers have ants when they get an above ground treatment of termidor.
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jvanvliet
08-24-2012, 05:54 PM
Trichlorfon is underrated...

jvanvliet
08-24-2012, 05:57 PM
TurfMD 101- Exoskeleton? Stolons? If you want to be the expert fine, how about utilizing correct terminology / spelling? For the record: I'm state certified in all four categories since June 1978. I have 3 degrees (2 undergraduate, 1 Graduate), over 40 years experience, owned my own PC business, Manager at WDW in Pest Management for 11 years, Extension Agent IFAS in South Florida, written and published articles and delivered countless programs. Ever heard of spell check? Now, I'm not disputing everything you said BUT you're not the only knowledgeable person here. You may wish to keep that in mind. Good day Sir.

Wow that was harsh; I'd like to see you and Ric go at it in an ego throwdown. :rolleyes:

turfmd101
08-24-2012, 08:22 PM
I, as a certified operator won't be putting down soap to control TSW (ELS comments above are correct IMO). If Joe homeowner wants to do that it's his business. Our company will indeed apply Bifen (or other labeled products) to manage TSW numbers when required. Likely our customers would be more satisfied with that.

TurfMD 101- Exoskeleton? Stolons? If you want to be the expert fine, how about utilizing correct terminology / spelling? For the record: I'm state certified in all four categories since June 1978. I have 3 degrees (2 undergraduate, 1 Graduate), over 40 years experience, owned my own PC business, Manager at WDW in Pest Management for 11 years, Extension Agent IFAS in South Florida, written and published articles and delivered countless programs. Ever heard of spell check? Now, I'm not disputing everything you said BUT you're not the only knowledgeable person here. You may wish to keep that in mind. Good day Sir.
1) So I guess you don't use baking soda for crabgrass right? I think your problem is you are too book experienced. Closed minded. If the label says it, it must be true. you've spent to much time learning what other people say vs what your over 40 years of experience tells you. I roll my own way, never cut and paste. Your short changing your customers by staying in the box. My customers prefer a more natural control than a synthetic pyrethroid that's worn out, over used and not a true residual. You use it because its cheap. Talstar has a better molecule, too much $ ay. I'm not saying it works but most would agree it works better. If I were you I would be upset to. I'm a guy who never went to (school) for this. Well your kind of edumacation (check spelling pls). My school from 18 to 45 has been in the landscape. I pay attention, remember things and how the environment works from record rains to record droughts and anything in between. I've never read many labels, though I know most products by what they "really" do not what controlled test study's show or labels tell me. I'm open minded. If I thought I was the most knowledgeable person here I would probably use spell check to prove it, but I don't. So that settles that. Oh, I don't want to be THE expert but I am an EXPERT. I'm not trying to publish anything here or I would be really be letting it role. I'm saving some for later. The fact is I never visit my customers only phone contact or e-mailed pictures from them. I usually take an account that's fed-up with poor results from different services. After 6 to 8 weeks their landscapes are on cruise control. My customers almost never use insecticides or herbicides. I guide them over the phone, never visit them and their always asked who they have for service because their landscape screams green under all environmental adversity. Then I get another lead. I mean account. The fact is my customers landscapes out perform ones visited 6-7 times a year by techs. I'm very proactive when it comes to potential landscape failures. Yea i'm that good. So do I think i'm an expert, YES. Can I spell good, ( I mean well ) NO. Since spelling has nothing to do with keeping landscapes healthy and problem free. I guess your school taught good spelling. My school taught me the necessary things beyond spelling. Good day to you Sir! P.S. keep up on applying pesticides that seems to work best for YOU.

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 11:47 AM
You guys are so literal. Ok I'm self taught. That doesn't mean I have no certificates. I've attended many classes. Because I needed the paper. Not the info.

OK, I confess the only label I read front to back was Round -Up pro liq. Other than that AI's rates, what to hit & what not to hit.

I'm that good and I'd only have to prove it if I was trying to get $ from you. The one's that pay me know. That's what matters.
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ELS Landscape
08-25-2012, 11:58 AM
I am self taught on many things. I also come here to learn, and share. There are plenty of helpful experts on this site.

I promote IPM, I believe that pest will be best but the best defense is healthy plants. While I like safer products, there is no reason to use something as far off label as Laundry Detergent for pest control. The EPA is pretty liberal with Minimum Risk Pesticides but there are still rules.

There are also some very effective minimum risk products out there for insects. I will stick to them and charge accordingly.

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 12:32 PM
I am self taught on many things. I also come here to learn, and share. There are plenty of helpful experts on this site.

I promote IPM, I believe that pest will be best but the best defense is healthy plants. While I like safer products, there is no reason to use something as far off label as Laundry Detergent for pest control. The EPA is pretty liberal with Minimum Risk Pesticides but there are still rules.

There are also some very effective minimum risk products out there for insects. I will stick to them and charge accordingly.

IPM's goal is no pesticides applied. Practicing it would mean in my opinion "SOAP" this late in August. IPM does not teach treating when unnecessary as in webworms will be gone soon enough a matter of weeks. Turf will recover just fine because September to November are its favorite time of year. Just like aphids on myrtles even with sooty mold because of high populations, they will naturally shed their insect. June -July another story.
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ELS Landscape
08-25-2012, 12:46 PM
IPM's goal is no pesticides applied. Practicing it would mean in my opinion "SOAP" this late in August. IPM does not teach treating when unnecessary as in webworms will be gone soon enough a matter of weeks. Turf will recover just fine because September to November are its favorite time of year. Just like aphids on myrtles even with sooty mold because of high populations, they will naturally shed their insect. June -July another story.
Posted via Mobile Device

Unnecessary treatments are to be avoided under IPM but I do not see anywhere advocating the use of off label use of any product.

I have actually sat down with the folks in Crystall City, VA on more than one occasion. I have a pretty good grip on IPM.

http://www.epa.gov/pesp/htmlpublications/feb09_pespwire.html

jvanvliet
08-25-2012, 01:04 PM
Horticultural oils are underated

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 01:09 PM
End Of discussion! He's right.
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turfmd101
08-25-2012, 01:12 PM
Horticultural oils are underated

Sorry forgot to tag this.
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turfmd101
08-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Listen I want to clear the air about the, "soap". Don't want anyone to think I haven't applied thousands of gallons of pesticides in my years. Still do, only now I. "really know when to". I was simply answering his question. "Simple & easy " "simple & easy " "simple & easy ". Nothing more nothing less. Now let's play ball please. That's what he asked for right. "Simple & easy." "Simple & easy." Plus their almost done!
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jvanvliet
08-25-2012, 06:13 PM
Red flags mean caution; if these statements from somebody touting pest control aren't red flags I'm an idjut.

"I'm a guy who never went to (school) for this.

I've never read many labels, though I know most products by what they "really" do not what controlled test study's show or labels tell me.

The fact is I never visit my customers only phone contact or e-mailed pictures from them."

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 07:36 PM
I've attended turfgrass science classes, but not for school. My schooling came from being on the south end of a north bound spreader. Being on my knees in the turf soil probe in hand, my corona 80 pruners on my belt figuring out the why's.

What do you think it takes to get the word "CONTROLS" on pesticide labels? They never say will kill. It says "CONTROL" for a reasonable claim to gain registration. Ever heard of results may very? You believe the testing used for data results are designed to be easy to pass or fail. I'm not knocking data or pesticides abilities. With favorable environmental conditions, they perform nicely. The issue is, how often is mother nature on our side. Not enough for me to use labels more than experience. OK. Almost never visit my customers. Sometimes I gotta see myself. Fact. How else could I turn a homeowner into a veteran techs best competition.
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jvanvliet
08-25-2012, 07:42 PM
I've attended turfgrass science classes, but not for school. My schooling came from being on the south end of a north bound spreader. Being on my knees in the turf soil probe in hand, my corona 80 pruners on my belt figuring out the why's.

What do you think it takes to get the word "CONTROLS" on pesticide labels? They never say will kill. It says "CONTROL" for a reasonable claim to gain registration. Ever heard of results may very? You believe the testing used for data results are designed to be easy to pass or fail. I'm not knocking data or pesticides abilities. With favorable environmental conditions, they perform nicely. The issue is, how often is mother nature on our side. Not enough for me to use labels more than experience. OK. Almost never visit my customers. Sometimes I gotta see myself. Fact. How else could I turn a homeowner into a veteran techs best competition.
Posted via Mobile Device

The label is the LAW!

Duekster
08-25-2012, 07:42 PM
I've attended turfgrass science classes, but not for school. My schooling came from being on the south end of a north bound spreader. Being on my knees in the turf soil probe in hand, my corona 80 pruners on my belt figuring out the why's.

What do you think it takes to get the word "CONTROLS" on pesticide labels? They never say will kill. It says "CONTROL" for a reasonable claim to gain registration. Ever heard of results may very? You believe the testing used for data results are designed to be easy to pass or fail. I'm not knocking data or pesticides abilities. With favorable environmental conditions, they perform nicely. The issue is, how often is mother nature on our side. Not enough for me to use labels more than experience. OK. Almost never visit my customers. Sometimes I gotta see myself. Fact. How else could I turn a homeowner into a veteran techs best competition.
Posted via Mobile Device

You could bring a lot to this group if perhaps you did not talk down to us. We have nothing to prove and we are here to share.

RELEASE us from your Holier-than-thou CONTROL attitude

Duekster
08-25-2012, 07:44 PM
The label is the LAW!

You got that right and often for good reason :rolleyes:

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 07:56 PM
You know. I thought this was an open forum. Do discuss issues. Help others come up with answers to problems they endure. But in the end it's just like when my kids play PS3 online. Everybody has attatude. Everyone's competing. I'm not trying to challenge anyone that I'm better. I just wana give my thoughts from my experiences. You never know when your going to meet someone who can help get ya to the next level. Me included. Oh, enough of the soap jokes. It's too repetitive. Nothing new. Nothing different to all the different things I say. Step up. Give me a real well thought challenging response please instead of the same thing. How about something like "Hey man, is you're spreader like a 55 gallon barrel of detergent that you puncture with you're pruners, lay on its side and roll all over the turf ". Now that's a little more funny than the same amo.
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Duekster
08-25-2012, 08:02 PM
Talk about IPM. I don't want to be an a** but here goes. If you can't name it, you don't know what you should & should get off the sidewalk when I walk by! By the way. "Your a poet and you know it!
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We see that you are all warm and fuzzy. :rolleyes:

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 08:30 PM
The label is the LAW!

But what am I off label on? Let me know so I can address.
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turfmd101
08-25-2012, 08:43 PM
You could bring a lot to this group if perhaps you did not talk down to us. We have nothing to prove and we are here to share.

RELEASE us from your Holier-than-thou CONTROL attitude
Not trying to belittle anyone. Guess I'm trying to gain trust and respect too soon too early. Being support for small, medium & large landscape service contractors for over 14 years trying to position myself as their goto guy for helping to resolve service issues, save accounts etc.. Didn't mean to give the wrong impression. Will try to fix the perception.
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jvanvliet
08-25-2012, 09:22 PM
But what am I off label on? Let me know so I can address.
Posted via Mobile Device

Not enough for me to use labels more than experience. Posted via Mobile Device

RUT-ROH :eek:

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 10:19 PM
RUT-ROH :eek:

Ok I will try to clarify. The atrazine label says not to spray over certain temps. They say its too hot and it will burn. I understand they are covering their liabilities. I have sprayed atrazine in 102 temps. No damage to follow because I took into consideration the turfgrass conditions. Very healthy and strong. No problem for atrazine. Now it wasn't off label at that temp just off suggestion. I would not spray within 25 feet of the mean water line. That's off label. If the label says I can't, I don't. If it says I shouldn't because of risk. I'll make that call on my experience. Not the label. I still have no trouble killing dollarweed new or older with atrazine.
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jvanvliet
08-26-2012, 08:24 AM
Ok I will try to clarify. The atrazine label says not to spray over certain temps. They say its too hot and it will burn. I understand they are covering their liabilities. I have sprayed atrazine in 102 temps. No damage to follow because I took into consideration the turfgrass conditions. Very healthy and strong. No problem for atrazine. Now it wasn't off label at that temp just off suggestion. I would not spray within 25 feet of the mean water line. That's off label. If the label says I can't, I don't. If it says I shouldn't because of risk. I'll make that call on my experience. Not the label. I still have no trouble killing dollarweed new or older with atrazine.
Posted via Mobile Device

Well they are correct; it has nothing to do with liabilities as opposed to a scientific certainty borne out of experience in product trials.

To recommend applying Atrazine or virtually any broad leaf herbicide @ temps approaching 102, and assuming the turf is "healthy enough" to tolerate it (specially without having been out to the site) is wildly speculative and irresponsible!

Even applying Celcius or Metsulfuron (noted for minimal stress to St. Augustine turf at higher temperatures) at temperatures approaching 100 is at the very least unwise if not just plain stupid.

If my PCO even considered recommending doing that, he'd be replaced.

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Explain how or why atrazine would burn please. I am just curious. What is atrazines mode of action.
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jvanvliet
08-26-2012, 02:17 PM
Explain how or why atrazine would burn please. I am just curious. What is atrazines mode of action.
Posted via Mobile Device

Atrazine inhibits photosynthesis; like all triazenine class of herbicides, it interferes with electron transport during photosynthesis and eventually leads to cell membrane destruction and cellular leakage.

Floratam, the most common St. Augustine cultivar in my area is tolerant of atrazine herbicides when temperatures are below 85°F.

The label clearly states:

"Do not apply when temperatures exceed 90o F. Use only on healthy turf grass which is not under heat or drought stress and reasonably free of infestations of insects, nematodes, and diseases. Use in the United States should be confined to Southeastern States only. Applications during the summer should be limited to spot treatment only."

In general, Atrazine results are inconsistent. Different St. Augustine cultivars have different tolerence levels, Floratam being the most tolerant. One cannot assume that an incidence of an application being well tolerated by a cultivar @102 degress indicates it is always appropriate to apply it under those conditions. Reasonable men would act on the side of prudence in it's application.

I would like to hear from others that they had sucess with Atrazine above 90 degrees without incuring damage to St. Augustine.

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Atrazine inhibits photosynthesis; like all triazenine class of herbicides, it interferes with electron transport during photosynthesis and eventually leads to cell membrane destruction and cellular leakage.

Floratam, the most common St. Augustine cultivar in my area is tolerant of atrazine herbicides when temperatures are below 85°F.

The label clearly states:

Atrazines mode of action to my knowledge is growth accelerator. Growing weeds through their life cycle at a speeded rate. That's why most applicators and homeowners notice the weeds get "bigger "after a couple of weeks. Atrazine takes about 3 to 4 weeks to complete this process. Thats why sometimes some weeds die some look yellow and some look fine. Different weed species different results. Short life cycle weeds easy to kill one app longer life cycle ones harder. That can be seen in medium size dollarweed. Sometimes after 4 week cycle its just bigger. A follow up app insurers this process finishes the weed life cycle. Another reason follow up apps are more important than 1st apps sometimes.


In general, Atrazine results are inconsistent. Different St. Augustine cultivars have different tolerence levels, Floratam being the most tolerant. One cannot assume that an incidence of an application being well tolerated by a cultivar @102 degress indicates it is always appropriate to apply it under those conditions. Reasonable men would act on the side of prudence in it's application.

I would like to hear from others that they had sucess with Atrazine above 90 degrees without incuring damage to St. Augustine.
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turfmd101
08-26-2012, 03:30 PM
Posted via Mobile Device

Sorry for blending message I'm on my phone. I hear ya. But if it were to disrupt growth how could weeds grow larger from an application.
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jvanvliet
08-26-2012, 03:49 PM
Sorry for blending message I'm on my phone. I hear ya. But if it were to disrupt growth how could weeds grow larger from an application.
Posted via Mobile Device

Better go back to school; no-one has disagreed with me yet. When they do... I'll admit applying Atrazine @ 102f is a good idea.:waving:

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 04:52 PM
Better go back to school; no-one has disagreed with me yet. When they do... I'll admit applying Atrazine @ 102f is a good idea.:waving:

No need for school. It's funny you say that. When I was a LESCO associate. The hort professor at velencia college used to have me come by to discuss turfgrass science as a guest speaker in his class when he was covering pesticide use because of my ability to metaphor it to be easy understood . PS. He also took notes. Again, as I've been told on this forum that I talk down to everyone. I guess I have used poor choices in words, marking myself a jerk. Again 14 years using pesticides to 13 years selling and studying them. I believe I have a fair grasp on proper application technique. Just because you don't know it yet does not make it untrue. I've even picked up dimes from the floors of random customers warehouses... with their forklift...just to win a
friendly bet.

Maybe their are tricks I know that you do not and vice versa. The point is. I hope not to show the same disregard of someones experiences since its something they did vs something they read.
Posted via Mobile Device

jvanvliet
08-26-2012, 06:21 PM
No need for school. It's funny you say that. When I was a LESCO associate. The hort professor at velencia college used to have me come by to discuss turfgrass science as a guest speaker in his class when he was covering pesticide use because of my ability to metaphor it to be easy understood . PS. He also took notes. Again, as I've been told on this forum that I talk down to everyone. I guess I have used poor choices in words, marking myself a jerk. Again 14 years using pesticides to 13 years selling and studying them. I believe I have a fair grasp on proper application technique. Just because you don't know it yet does not make it untrue. I've even picked up dimes from the floors of random customers warehouses... with their forklift...just to win a
friendly bet.

Maybe their are tricks I know that you do not and vice versa. The point is. I hope not to show the same disregard of someones experiences since its something they did vs something they read.
Posted via Mobile Device

I bow to your magnificence... nonetheless, I wouldn't let you spread composted cow manure on my properties let alone chemicals. The law says the label and the label is the law.:drinkup:

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 08:14 PM
I bow to your magnificence... nonetheless, I wouldn't let you spread composted cow manure on my properties let alone chemicals. The law says the label and the label is the law.:drinkup:

No. Just a regular mortal. Just hard to swallow the disbelief that for the amount of time I've been involved w/ atrazine I wouldn't know the 101 things. Im not like the guy's I've known WHO for many years say the same thing "Hey man, like how much round up goes in here.
Posted via Mobile Device

Duekster
08-26-2012, 08:20 PM
Preaching does not help.

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 08:51 PM
Last thing ill say about atrazine. Please read the label. Don't rely on my words 4 100% accuracy. I believe atrazines label says, can be applied between Sept 16 thru April 16 or something like that. Later it says do not apply when temp exceed 90 deg. Now March thru April for 2012 were what, come on you can say it. Super hot right. Now one section says OK to spray in March & April. Yet another part says I can't because it's to hot. I don't think its a mater of superseedment™. It would be on the label, but they didn't know it could happen. Because it's an unpredictable situation that research can't show. That's why I trust my judgment more. The label also says its bad for fish and frogs. And I believe that under any conditions which may come. I'll also turn anyone in, who would test that part of the research.
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turfmd101
08-26-2012, 09:23 PM
You guys are bursting with great experience. That's obvious. Every one here's mentions stuff I didn't know. I've read stuff I don't know what the hell. More minds, more progress. Better prograss than that selective herbicide for Bermuda in St. Aug called prograss.
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Duekster
08-26-2012, 09:31 PM
I think you will fit in fine.... I learn a lot every day. You might think we are a clan but we are not. We debate and discuss often.

We will not advocate the use of house hold products to treat however. Nothing wrong with organics but I think household soap in organics thread would not go over well either. It could but I doubt that is OMRI listed :laugh:

It will take a while to live that down.

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 09:38 PM
You disqualified yourself from knowledge when you mentioned Jerry Baker stuff...

It might be ok for a homeowner to use, but I cannot use it per the law.

A homeowner can kill fire ants with gasoline...I'd lose my applicators license if I did the same.
Posted via Mobile Device

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 10:24 PM
Using the detergent and organics is not my practice. The meat of the original question I answered was he was looking for something he could tell his customers to use that was "simple and easy ". So soap.
Posted via Mobile Device

bugsNbows
08-27-2012, 11:44 AM
1) So I guess you don't use baking soda for crabgrass right? I think your problem is you are too book experienced. Closed minded. If the label says it, it must be true. you've spent to much time learning what other people say vs what your over 40 years of experience tells you. I roll my own way, never cut and paste. Your short changing your customers by staying in the box. My customers prefer a more natural control than a synthetic pyrethroid that's worn out, over used and not a true residual. You use it because its cheap. Talstar has a better molecule, too much $ ay. I'm not saying it works but most would agree it works better. If I were you I would be upset to. I'm a guy who never went to (school) for this. Well your kind of edumacation (check spelling pls). My school from 18 to 45 has been in the landscape. I pay attention, remember things and how the environment works from record rains to record droughts and anything in between. I've never read many labels, though I know most products by what they "really" do not what controlled test study's show or labels tell me. I'm open minded. If I thought I was the most knowledgeable person here I would probably use spell check to prove it, but I don't. So that settles that. Oh, I don't want to be THE expert but I am an EXPERT. I'm not trying to publish anything here or I would be really be letting it role. I'm saving some for later. The fact is I never visit my customers only phone contact or e-mailed pictures from them. I usually take an account that's fed-up with poor results from different services. After 6 to 8 weeks their landscapes are on cruise control. My customers almost never use insecticides or herbicides. I guide them over the phone, never visit them and their always asked who they have for service because their landscape screams green under all environmental adversity. Then I get another lead. I mean account. The fact is my customers landscapes out perform ones visited 6-7 times a year by techs. I'm very proactive when it comes to potential landscape failures. Yea i'm that good. So do I think i'm an expert, YES. Can I spell good, ( I mean well ) NO. Since spelling has nothing to do with keeping landscapes healthy and problem free. I guess your school taught good spelling. My school taught me the necessary things beyond spelling. Good day to you Sir! P.S. keep up on applying pesticides that seems to work best for YOU.

LOL. My experience has taught me a few things...one of which is that referring to yourself as an expert usually signifies the opposite. It must be so nice to always be the B.M.O.C. with non-malodorus feces.

I'm also rather mystified that your Lesco training did not instill in you the legalities of applying pesticides in anything other than strict label adherence.

I do apologize if I ruffled your feelings. All I was attempting to relate to you is that there are many intelligent thinkers on this site. You came roaring in as the one, the greatest know-it-all... with all the answers.
Sort of...our Obama. You may have chapped some butts with that approach.

Good day Sir.

turfmd101
08-27-2012, 02:28 PM
Yep first impression was "NOT GOOD" and not better yet! I'm trying to start a dialect I feel is important about our business. I mean no disrespect. Have you ever asked your tech. or techs. how did your lawns look today. they say great. do you say "that's good!" or do you ask how much fert they used and when they say 15 bags or 2 tons. would you then say "what the hell did you waste so much product and money. how about it didn't need mowing but we did it anyway. "WHAT" I like that stuff. I read mostly about product use. Did too much of that stuff. I prefer talking about why it's not needed as much. only thing i share in common is "hope and change".... wait, no i don't i don't share anything with him. my bad.

Landscape Poet
08-27-2012, 03:37 PM
Yep first impression was "NOT GOOD" and not better yet! I'm trying to start a dialect I feel is important about our business. I mean no disrespect. Have you ever asked your tech. or techs. how did your lawns look today. they say great. do you say "that's good!" or do you ask how much fert they used and when they say 15 bags or 2 tons. would you then say "what the hell did you waste so much product and money. how about it didn't need mowing but we did it anyway. "WHAT" I like that stuff. I read mostly about product use. Did too much of that stuff. I prefer talking about why it's not needed as much. only thing i share in common is "hope and change".... wait, no i don't i don't share anything with him. my bad.

Give it time I am sure you will find the Florida forum is full of thinkers who share many of your same ideas. We as a whole are not a fan of running over dry lawns in March etc. and I am pretty sure that many of the applicators here are small operations that understands that IPM also stands for I PAY MATERIALS and have no issue not applying any more inputs than what are needed.

Like I said previously, you appear to have some knowledge, and I do not think anyone seriously disagreed with you on the soap in terms of it could help resolve the issue, however rather it was your approach/bed side manner that most of us had a issue with.

Again like I said and I believe others have said, we welcome you here and will appreciate interacting with you, as long as your head does not outgrow the page you are writing on.

I look forward to having discussions for you. I am not a applicator on lawns so I enjoy learning as much as I can here to better understand what is going on. Everyday it seems that I learn something new so I will look forward to hearing your alternatives and different ideas.

Mike

turfmd101
08-27-2012, 10:18 PM
Better go back to school; no-one has disagreed with me yet. When they do... I'll admit applying Atrazine @ 102f is a good idea.:waving:

Test it yourself. It will be easy if you want to see for yourself.

In your route travels i'm sure you have noticed somewhere, forgotten about St. Aug on some left-alone lot and the St. Aug could even be an area 10 sq ft that might not be green but big and healthy. Big thick stolons, knee high foliage. kicking ass right. make sure its real hot and if you can find some broadleaf weeds and your brave enough, treat at 2oz per / 1000 rate. follow up in 3 to 4 weeks. then find the opposite conditions of St. Aug do same treatment. see if results vary. you don't have to let me know the results. you might be surprised what you WILL find. Find out how much health plays as a factor more than the environment.

LGL
08-27-2012, 10:33 PM
Using the detergent and organics is not my practice. The meat of the original question I answered was he was looking for something he could tell his customers to use that was "simple and easy ". So soap.
Posted via Mobile Device

Okay, so like I said, I'm not a PCO and just wondered if there was a fairly simple fix to pass to the customers. Didn't know if just a bag of bug b gone would do it or what. Funny though, was listening to the radio over the weekend (garden show) and the host had a caller with the same issue and he suggested the use of detergent! I got a kick out of this. Everyone has been slinging the heat since I asked this question, no need. Just needed some easy advice. There for a minute I thought we had a "My Dad can beat up your Dad situation".*trucewhiteflag**trucewhiteflag**trucewhiteflag*

turfmd101
08-27-2012, 11:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPluXq_hko&feature=player_detailpage

jvanvliet
08-28-2012, 06:04 AM
Test it yourself. It will be easy if you want to see for yourself.

In your route travels i'm sure you have noticed somewhere, forgotten about St. Aug on some left-alone lot and the St. Aug could even be an area 10 sq ft that might not be green but big and healthy. Big thick stolons, knee high foliage. kicking ass right. make sure its real hot and if you can find some broadleaf weeds and your brave enough, treat at 2oz per / 1000 rate. follow up in 3 to 4 weeks. then find the opposite conditions of St. Aug do same treatment. see if results vary. you don't have to let me know the results. you might be surprised what you WILL find. Find out how much health plays as a factor more than the environment.

Health always plays a factor @102f the turf is heat stressed, that's not healthy.

turfmd101
08-28-2012, 07:20 AM
Health always plays a factor @102f the turf is heat stressed, that's not healthy.

Food for thought ; If you stay too close to the label. How do you learn what the label CAN'T tell you. Look at it like this. The manufacture could not have done testing under all variable conditions because they haven't happened yet! Hence 90 + degrees in March & April not on their label. A speed limit sign says 25mph on curves. Under certain conditions I could hit the curves at 45mph. Everyone's technique is a variable that can't be simulated.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ric
08-28-2012, 11:34 PM
LOL. My experience has taught me a few things...one of which is that referring to yourself as an expert usually signifies the opposite. It must be so nice to always be the B.M.O.C. with non-malodorus feces.

I'm also rather mystified that your Lesco training did not instill in you the legalities of applying pesticides in anything other than strict label adherence.

I do apologize if I ruffled your feelings. All I was attempting to relate to you is that there are many intelligent thinkers on this site. You came roaring in as the one, the greatest know-it-all... with all the answers.
Sort of...our Obama. You may have chapped some butts with that approach.

Good day Sir.

It has been my experience that most Lesco store clerks are failed Landscapers. They are happy to have a job that pays peanuts so they don't have to do any real work.

As for following labels etc. From some of thing I have seen, Lesco will sell anything to any body and never even know what a label is. The last credential I for want is Lesco Training. IMHO Lesco Training isn't any better than TG/CL.

.

turfmd101
08-29-2012, 01:02 AM
It has been my experience that most Lesco store clerks are failed Landscapers. They are happy to have a job that pays peanuts so they don't have to do any real work.

As for following labels etc. From some of thing I have seen, Lesco will sell anything to any body and never even know what a label is. The last credential I for want is Lesco Training. IMHO Lesco Training isn't any better than TG/CL.

.

I know the kind to. Not me! HO no termidor, no rup. When advising "anyone"who radiates "Applicator Danger". I either try using lots O big words & science talk and stuff. So hopefully they'll hire a specialist. Now if their not gonna leave empty handed. They will get what is within their capabilities but first and foremost. I will instill in the tools it takes. "Not to screw it up". Sales are not as important as my reputation. My reputation in the industry is how I make my livelihood not my J.O.B.
Posted via Mobile Device

turfmd101
08-29-2012, 01:57 AM
As for failed landscaper. Try burnt out on guys not showing up, 2cyl in my ear (even with plugs) , someone taking my pruners, not being able to apply what was need but what was program or budget, sweat pools in my boots, the dog that wasn't there when I knocked-listened -opened gate -pulled 150ft, turn around and bam cujo. Coming full throttle. F-*#. And after extensive conversation about irrigation in the dry season he has 40% more $ weed and the heals of my boots are vacuum stuck in muck from over irritation and after he saves me from cujo. Asks. "How come my neighbor never does nothing and he doesn't have $ weed?" Thankfully the gun in my hand only shoots water droplets or the wife would be mortgaging the house! Funny thing is, when I worked there. HO's have open ears during cultural practice conversations. It made it easier for me to prep a potential customer of an applicator so he won't struggle with applications. That's how I play. Every chance! My work was for the cause!
Posted via Mobile Device

fl-landscapes
08-29-2012, 10:19 AM
As for failed landscaper. Try burnt out on guys not showing up, 2cyl in my ear (even with plugs) , someone taking my pruners, not being able to apply what was need but what was program or budget, sweat pools in my boots, the dog that wasn't there when I knocked-listened -opened gate -pulled 150ft, turn around and bam cujo. Coming full throttle. F-*#. And after extensive conversation about irrigation in the dry season he has 40% more $ weed and the heals of my boots are vacuum stuck in muck from over irritation and after he saves me from cujo. Asks. "How come my neighbor never does nothing and he doesn't have $ weed?" Thankfully the gun in my hand only shoots water droplets or the wife would be mortgaging the house! Funny thing is, when I worked there. HO's have open ears during cultural practice conversations. It made it easier for me to prep a potential customer of an applicator so he won't struggle with applications. That's how I play. Every chance! My work was for the cause!
Posted via Mobile Device

Dealing with customers in this business is as important as knowing what and wear to spray. From this post and all your others I can see your not as good with people skills as you think you are with you application skills. Frankly you sound like a whining pain in the azz who should fit in well sitting behind a counter selling over priced products to Joe homeowner all day. Reading most of your posts make me want to pull my hair out of my head.....I would sick cujo on you too if you were my lawn boy. Now go spout your arrogant crap off to your dumb customers.....no one here wants to hear it.

Ric
08-29-2012, 11:09 AM
Dealing with customers in this business is as important as knowing what and wear to spray. From this post and all your others I can see your not as good with people skills as you think you are with you application skills. Frankly you sound like a whining pain in the azz who should fit in well sitting behind a counter selling over priced products to Joe homeowner all day. Reading most of your posts make me want to pull my hair out of my head.....I would sick cujo on you too if you were my lawn boy. Now go spout your arrogant crap off to your dumb customers.....no one here wants to hear it.

Fl-landscape

Remember Lesco store clerks are only paid around $ 30,000 a year. At that wage level what can you expect??? I believe I could collect soda cans and make that much.

You have to admit our current local Lesco guys aren't the typical failed Landscapers that work at Lesco. The younger of the two has been with Lesco for a number of years and learned well. The older guy was a spray tech on a golf course for years and Lesco is more of a slow down job before retirement. Both are nice guys. While I am not a big Lesco Customer they are my 7-11 for that Gallon of Milk I need right now. They take care of me even if I am a low volume customer. You have done work on the Lesco landscape, and dealing with those local guys was easy and profitable for you.

.

fl-landscapes
08-29-2012, 12:05 PM
Tim and Scott are good guys and so is "hissing cobra" on this site. The difference I think is they chose to go to lesco and this clown couldn't hack the real world.

Fl-landscape

Remember Lesco store clerks are only paid around $ 30,000 a year. At that wage level what can you expect??? I believe I could collect soda cans and make that much.

You have to admit our current local Lesco guys aren't the typical failed Landscapers that work at Lesco. The younger of the two has been with Lesco for a number of years and learned well. The older guy was a spray tech on a golf course for years and Lesco is more of a slow down job before retirement. Both are nice guys. While I am not a big Lesco Customer they are my 7-11 for that Gallon of Milk I need right now. They take care of me even if I am a low volume customer. You have done work on the Lesco landscape, and dealing with those local guys was easy and profitable for you.

.

Ric
08-29-2012, 12:44 PM
Tim and Scott are good guys and so is "hissing cobra" on this site. The difference I think is they chose to go to lesco and this clown couldn't hack the real world.

It does seem to be the prevailing opinion of many on this forum.

.

turfmd101
08-29-2012, 01:18 PM
Sorry, my level was not the $30k. or that would be a joke!

My position is as follows:

If your customers starting day 1 to current, understand more about pesticide & fertilizer use than they understand about what they definitely, have to be doing, hands down, there IS no exception, they get it know. That they are so excited about all the things they didn't know, BUT NOW THEY DO. They cant wait to tell the neighbor why they HAVE chinch and not that they GOT chinch. That they were invited in by stress and it did not happen by chance. If they help minimize stress. Chinch won't be much of an issue, even during drought. Their turf is alive. Holy crap.They get it now. If their not working harder in their yard than you and not reliant on your magic potions to cure things. You have not done your job... Your first job is an EDUCATOR. Your second job is an APPLICATOR. I read more posts about the second job than I do about the first job. That's why I say what I say. My customers understand they work for me. I don't work for them. They understand my first job. Its all GOOD! MY CUSTOMERS WOULDN'T ASK WHY THE NEIGHBORS TURF LOOKS BETTER WHEN THEY DO NOTHING. BECAUSE I EXCEL AT MY FIRST JOB.

Ric
08-29-2012, 02:26 PM
Sorry, my level was not the $30k. or that would be a joke!

My position is as follows:

If your customers starting day 1 to current, understand more about pesticide & fertilizer use than they understand about what they definitely, have to be doing, hands down, there IS no exception, they get it know. That they are so excited about all the things they didn't know, BUT NOW THEY DO. They cant wait to tell the neighbor why they HAVE chinch and not that they GOT chinch. That they were invited in by stress and it did not happen by chance. If they help minimize stress. Chinch won't be much of an issue, even during drought. Their turf is alive. Holy crap.They get it now. If their not working harder in their yard than you and not reliant on your magic potions to cure things. You have not done your job... Your first job is an EDUCATOR. Your second job is an APPLICATOR. I read more posts about the second job than I do about the first job. That's why I say what I say. My customers understand they work for me. I don't work for them. They understand my first job. Its all GOOD! MY CUSTOMERS WOULDN'T ASK WHY THE NEIGHBORS TURF LOOKS BETTER WHEN THEY DO NOTHING. BECAUSE I EXCEL AT MY FIRST JOB.

turfmd101

I believe you are missing the point here. WE REALLY DON"T CARE WHAT YOUR POSITION AT LESCO WAS OR IS. As Buds & Bows put it your Big Man On Campus with non-malodorous excrement attitude is not winning friends or influencing Lawnsite Members.

BTW there are many members here who actual have a College education in horticulture, some have even taught College Level Horticulture. Other have had real positions like Buds & Bows who ran the Pest Control Dept for Disney World at one time. BTW He was also a County Extension Agent.

Your Lesco training is not as good as TG/CL because you did actually apply or follow up on the results of that application. Are you even certified as a Pesticide Operator in the state of Florida?? Or are you just an other wannabe??


.

turfmd101
08-29-2012, 03:10 PM
After 13 years of applying thousands of applications. Working 70+ hours a week, is how I became certified. Not my lesco time. Though it did correct some of my misunderstandings. All I did there was try to help my fellow applicators. I didn't learn from there the way you understand it. Yes I applied under my license. But if I can convince a HO they had it wrong the whole time. Then any clown can right. Because I'm not as good as you. If I can turn a wrecked lawn into the envy yard of the subdivision. Never seeing it, and only discussing it.I must have learned something right. But I'm not the big man on campus. Possibly just to eager to help. I'll back off!
Posted via Mobile Device

Duekster
08-29-2012, 03:13 PM
Or are you just an other wannabe??[/B]


.

Ric

Tried to send you a PM but your box was full. Wanted to ask about buying some formulas.

Ric
08-29-2012, 04:18 PM
Ric

Tried to send you a PM but your box was full. Wanted to ask about buying some formulas.

After several time of emptying my PM box I decided to leave it full to avoid Private Questions.

Am I to assume you want to control Grassy Weeds Like Bermuda and Torpedo Grass in St Augustine? Sorry I Plan to die with those formulas unless someone buys out all my accounts and pays big time. I have given, traded or sold premixed unlabeled products with instruction to several LS member who have posted the successful results here as you already know.

If you still want to contact me privately. Leave a visitor's message with your E mail and I will respond to your E mail. I will also erase your E mail after I copy it. BTW I don't want a bunch of Messages from other people in my visitor box.

.

fl-landscapes
08-29-2012, 05:20 PM
Sorry, my level was not the $30k. or that would be a joke!

My position is as follows:

If your customers starting day 1 to current, understand more about pesticide & fertilizer use than they understand about what they definitely, have to be doing, hands down, there IS no exception, they get it know. That they are so excited about all the things they didn't know, BUT NOW THEY DO. They cant wait to tell the neighbor why they HAVE chinch and not that they GOT chinch. That they were invited in by stress and it did not happen by chance. If they help minimize stress. Chinch won't be much of an issue, even during drought. Their turf is alive. Holy crap.They get it now. If their not working harder in their yard than you and not reliant on your magic potions to cure things. You have not done your job... Your first job is an EDUCATOR. Your second job is an APPLICATOR. I read more posts about the second job than I do about the first job. That's why I say what I say. My customers understand they work for me. I don't work for them. They understand my first job. Its all GOOD! MY CUSTOMERS WOULDN'T ASK WHY THE NEIGHBORS TURF LOOKS BETTER WHEN THEY DO NOTHING. BECAUSE I EXCEL AT MY FIRST JOB.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::hammerhead::laugh::hammerhead:

fl-landscapes
08-29-2012, 05:24 PM
Trust me I dont let customers push me around, but to say your customers "work for you" is so laughable and arrogant it's unbelievable as well as a horrible bushiness model, mentality.

Michael J. Donovan
08-29-2012, 05:29 PM
I think some can agree to disagree on this one and each other's philosophies...so, I think it's time to put this one to rest

thanks :waving: