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vaacutabove
08-24-2012, 08:01 PM
I have a big problem with CG and NS. I did a split of prodiamine with a tun of break though. Has any one done three apps. half and two quarters? or none at all and just blanket drive one or two times. Good or bad Idea?

Duekster
08-24-2012, 08:08 PM
I have a big problem with CG and NS. I did a split of prodiamine with a tun of break though. Has any one done three apps. half and two quarters? or none at all and just blanket drive one or two times. Good or bad Idea?

Which product?

You can do a 1/2 and two 1/3 apps in some areas provide you do not over amp.

vaacutabove
08-24-2012, 09:45 PM
dont rem. the brand I used but it came from agrium. Has anyone done the three apps like this with more luck

heritage
08-24-2012, 09:51 PM
No Pre emergence at my home turf. It is a small area and I do not mind hand pulling a Crab here and there on occasion, as well as the ability to overseed as I see fit.

I would not even think about no Pre on the Clients lawns.

Think Green
08-24-2012, 10:40 PM
VA,
Look in to pennant magnum for preemerge control of cg and ns. Make sure you have yellow nutsedge or else it is useless.
The only time I have outbreaks is when applied too late after the cg has germinated or not enough water has been given to move the product into the root zones of the weeds.
If all else, apply the pennant and then do a split app of prodiamine or pendimethaliin.
Soil conposition, temperature, and weather conditions hurts sometimes.
Lastly, are you doing liquid apps or granular???

RigglePLC
08-24-2012, 11:17 PM
What were the rates of your split ap of prodiamine? Did you calibrate carefully? Are you accurate enough to apply between 100 and 10 percent of your target rate?

If you had a problem last year--you should go with the highest rate.

vaacutabove
08-25-2012, 08:01 AM
I know i went at the highest rate just got up. So i will have to look back in the books. Just thought i would run the no pre m but looks like a bad idea.
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Smallaxe
08-25-2012, 09:48 AM
Most of the 'break through' happens becuz of the product leaching away... during drought years CG is the critter that grows the best, while cool-season grasses give way to the excessive heat... to compensate the irrigation systems run full bore and leach away the product...

cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 10:32 AM
Where are you having break throughs? Are the low spots? Spots near downspouts or places where there is a tin of water flowing over the are? If so I double app these areas and I also double app driveway edges in my problem properties.
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Skipster
08-25-2012, 10:48 AM
Where are you having break throughs? Are the low spots? Spots near downspouts or places where there is a tin of water flowing over the are? If so I double app these areas and I also double app driveway edges in my problem properties.
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Really? Double-applications are usually reserved for the guys who can't spray single application right in the first place. Depending on the product you're using and the rates you're using, it may even be illegal.

So, double-apps can get you in trouble with the regulators, costs more money, and delivers the same result as single apps.

In that case, go ahead and make all the double apps you can stand!

cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 10:53 AM
Really? Double-applications are usually reserved for the guys who can't spray single application right in the first place. Depending on the product you're using and the rates you're using, it may even be illegal.

So, double-apps can get you in trouble with the regulators, costs more money, and delivers the same result as single apps.

In that case, go ahead and make all the double apps you can stand!

Yup, I'm a lousy chemical applicator and love the extra cost and time it takes to apply more chemicals. I also love having to battle crabgrass in low spots with even more chemicals at an even higher cost later...I'm all about spending money.

Just so you know, I use prodiamine at the 3 month rate (for most properties)...can go all the way to 8 month in a single application on Bermuda if I recall.
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turfmd101
08-25-2012, 10:54 AM
Pre-m products are designed to bond tightly to the soil. Leaching isn't an issue for pre-m. The three most common things that cause failure 1. Disturbing the soil where applied which breaks this bond (ground moles) cause this also. 2. Too heavily irrigation after application. You want to bond it in the upper 3 inches of soil. 3. Most importantly timing. Sedge and CG germinate at certain soil temps, not air temps & sedge and CG have different ranges, CG will before sedge. What soil mix. Clay, sand, % of each also factor into performance issues.
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cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Which product?

You can do a 1/2 and two 1/3 apps in some areas provide you do not over amp.

Hmm Skipster...it appears Deukster follows my same plan.
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cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 11:04 AM
And I'm still using MSMA for my customers lawns when I do have CG break throughs Skipster...

I'm pretty sure I'm the reason MSMA was banned. ;)
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Skipster
08-25-2012, 11:07 AM
Yup, I'm a lousy chemical applicator and love the extra cost and time it takes to apply more chemicals. I also love having to battle crabgrass in low spots with even more chemicals at an even higher cost later...I'm all about spending money.

Just so you know, I use prodiamine at the 3 month rate (for most properties)...can go all the way to 8 month in a single application on Bermuda if I recall.
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I guess I don't understand the technical lingo of "3 month rate." There is no "3 month rate" on the label. I've always gone by pounds of active ingredient per acre or per M, so I'm not sure what a "3 month rate" is.

The label allows for 21 to 48 fl oz of Barricade 4FL to be applied per acre of bermudagrass in a calendar year (0.65 to 1.5# ai/A). Syngenta's technical director recommends split applications of 0.75# ai followed by 0.5# ai in the fall in the southeast. If you double one of those applications, you exceed the labeled maximum use rate for the product.

I guess I forgot that not everyone is doing split applications. Sorry.

cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 11:19 AM
I guess I don't understand the technical lingo of "3 month rate." There is no "3 month rate" on the label. I've always gone by pounds of active ingredient per acre or per M, so I'm not sure what a "3 month rate" is.

The label allows for 21 to 48 fl oz of Barricade 4FL to be applied per acre of bermudagrass in a calendar year (0.65 to 1.5# ai/A). Syngenta's technical director recommends split applications of 0.75# ai followed by 0.5# ai in the fall in the southeast. If you double one of those applications, you exceed the labeled maximum use rate for the product.

I guess I forgot that not everyone is doing split applications. Sorry.

Look on label...it has pounds converted to months. If you knew as much about labels a you claim and actually read them you would know this.

So where is my cookie for reading label.

Btw I measure my product...I just do remember the actual pounds right off the top of my head...I think 1/2lb per acre is 3 months, one pound is 6.
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Skipster
08-25-2012, 12:17 PM
Look on label...it has pounds converted to months. If you knew as much about labels a you claim and actually read them you would know this.

So where is my cookie for reading label.

Btw I measure my product...I just do remember the actual pounds right off the top of my head...I think 1/2lb per acre is 3 months, one pound is 6.
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Youn can find the label here: http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld5JC005.pdf


The graph on page 10 shows approximately 3 months of control at 10 fl oz/A, which is 0.31# ai/A -- about half of the label's recommended 21 fl oz/A (0.65# ai/A). But, all that is merely an approximation and hasn't been updated since the product was first labeled in the 1990s. I also know that the length of control will vary with a number of factors, including moisture, temperature, and soil texture, so you can't rely on that chart for anything meaningful.

BTW, 0.5# ai/A on the chart comes out to about 4 months (16 fl oz/A). But, some years that 4 months could 2.5, some years it could be 5 months. In the same year, that 4 months could be 5 months on one side of town and 3 months on another side of town.

I would rather make my spplication decisions on research data, not 20 year-old graphs, simply because its easy to read.

cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 01:11 PM
Youn can find the label here: http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld5JC005.pdf


The graph on page 10 shows approximately 3 months of control at 10 fl oz/A, which is 0.31# ai/A -- about half of the label's recommended 21 fl oz/A (0.65# ai/A). But, all that is merely an approximation and hasn't been updated since the product was first labeled in the 1990s. I also know that the length of control will vary with a number of factors, including moisture, temperature, and soil texture, so you can't rely on that chart for anything meaningful.

BTW, 0.5# ai/A on the chart comes out to about 4 months (16 fl oz/A). But, some years that 4 months could 2.5, some years it could be 5 months. In the same year, that 4 months could be 5 months on one side of town and 3 months on another side of town.

I would rather make my spplication decisions on research data, not 20 year-old graphs, simply because its easy to read.

I can find the label on the two 10lb bags of Stonewall at my shop. You try to tell me that weather conditions, soil types and research data play a part in how the chemical works...I know this, hence the reason I double app low areas and edges on properties where I have experienced problems. Please do not tell me how to run my chemical and mowing business...I'm doing just fine thank you.
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Duekster
08-25-2012, 02:15 PM
I use Dimension. This is where I get the 1/2 + 1/3x2 program. I have used Barricadeand would use this program

I would apply the 21 oz/a rate in the fall around Sept 1~15.
I would apply 10 oz/a late Feb
I would apply 10 oz/a late May early June

That is 41 oz/a so I have a buffer of 7 oz per year. So I might considered going close to 14 oz.

This is close to the 1/2 X 1 and 1/3 X I mentioned but again I use Dimension which has different quantities and more wiggle room on the recommended and the max annual.

If I see Dimension falling off, then I would switch to Barricade for a season or two. I did that about 4 or 5 years ago.

It could be the low spots get too much water and the areas next to the walks and drive not enough to water in the Prem. I can catch them with a post.

RigglePLC
08-25-2012, 03:52 PM
I tested Shaws Dimension .13 percent on fertilizer. I used 4 pounds per thousand, weighed out and applied with hand held spreader. I applied on 3 different dates.
Dim April 12...result....heavy crabgrass
Dim May 1.....result....a few crabgrass plants
Dim May 12...result ....medium crabgrass
UTC.............result....heavy crabgrass

Lawn was low-quality grass on vacant lot. Not irrigated. Due to warm spring a few sprouts of crabgrass had appeared before treatments began. Rain occurred in spring, but then a hot 8 week dry spell ensued. Then a good rain or two in mid August.

From the result, it appears that May first is the best date here in Grand Rapids.

Duekster
08-25-2012, 03:55 PM
I tested Shaws Dimension .13 percent on fertilizer. I used 4 pounds per thousand, weighed out and applied with hand held spreader. I applied on 3 different dates.
Dim April 12...result....heavy crabgrass
Dim May 1.....result....a few crabgrass plants
Dim May 12...result ....medium crabgrass
UTC.............result....heavy crabgrass

Lawn was low-quality grass on vacant lot. Not irrigated. Due to warm spring a few sprouts of crabgrass had appeared before treatments began. Rain occurred in spring, but then a hot 8 week dry spell ensued. Then a good rain or two in mid August.

From the result, it appears that May first is the best date here in Grand Rapids.

I have never had much luck with prem of any kind on a fert. I like to spray it.

cgaengineer
08-25-2012, 04:00 PM
I have never had much luck with prem of any kind on a fert. I like to spray it.

Liquid for me...I think it has more to do with equal coverage than about the water in the mix.
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turfmd101
08-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Its more of a timming thing. Seeds germ at certain soil temp not air temp. Soil temps not time of year dictate germination . Pre -m doesn't touch a seed and kill it. The application is the easy part, getting it down right and working takes skill.
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Duekster
08-25-2012, 04:22 PM
Its more of a timming thing. Seeds germ at certain soil temp not air temp. Soil temps not time of year dictate germination . Pre -m doesn't touch a seed and kill it. The application is the easy part, getting it down right and working takes skill.
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Exactly, hence the reasoning behind the split apps as you get some overlap and timing flexibility. Dimension also will provide some post on CG in the early tiller stages if the Webworms don't get it first. :laugh:

turfmd101
08-25-2012, 04:34 PM
I'll put it like this. Crabgrass sounds out of control for you. Sorry, its domino effect can reck ya. See crabgrass needs three things to start like a tripod standing. Host (soil), seed & favorable environment. Can't remove host. Can't really remove seeds. But can manipulate the environment enough for the tripod to get a weak or missing leg and the tripod falls. I practice it all the time. Crabgrass is less than 2% of my worry. Don't need pre -m.
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vaacutabove
08-25-2012, 04:56 PM
the yards that are thick and they let me plug and seed are not much of a problem the problem is the thin yards that Im having problems

Smallaxe
08-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Pre-m products are designed to bond tightly to the soil. Leaching isn't an issue for pre-m. ...

Around here the CG germinates in May in your full sun areas, or later... Pre-M is put down in late March or early April, just to make all the stops before Rnd 2... I know the stuff isn't supposed to move through the soil, but where does it go when there is obviously too much water and the CG appears???

I like to think back to the time that this squirt&fert company Pre-m'd the newly laid sod... we had a terrible time trying to get roots to grow with all that root inhibitor working against us... we replaced a few areas and overseeded the seams, but that was after 1/2" of water everyday or some such thing... the CG was growing out of the sod before we got the stuff established...

I only give credability to claims, when I see that they work... rain ready roundup in 30 minutes is a claim that seems accurate... the closest we ever got in the time limit was an hour or so, but that claim I can go with... pre-m binding with the soil for 3 months under heavy irrigation... no... :)

EquityGreen
08-25-2012, 10:37 PM
This summer has ben super hot and very very dry. I knew crabgrass would be an issue this season do I used a full load of baracade .375 at 5lbs per 1000 and next off of 225 sgn of .1 dimension. It's totally unbelievable how little crabgrass we have in our lawns. Considering the horrible heat and lack of rain I'm very surprised how little we have. Im sold on this combo and plan to use this until something else comes up that's better.
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Think Green
08-26-2012, 12:21 AM
CGA,
My label shows a chart of months controlled at XX amount per acre also.
I use the .75 to .5 ratio also.......for a split app. Must be a different label that we get considering the information site that Skipster uses. I have read two different labels for the same product..........so there is more than one way to skin a cat and not all states has the same labeling restrictions.
Simazine afterwards for pre on poa annua.........what the barricade don't get.

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 04:50 AM
CGA,
My label shows a chart of months controlled at XX amount per acre also.
I use the .75 to .5 ratio also.......for a split app. Must be a different label that we get considering the information site that Skipster uses. I have read two different labels for the same product..........so there is more than one way to skin a cat and not all states has the same labeling restrictions.
Simazine afterwards for pre on poa annua.........what the barricade don't get.

Simazine is another two rounds for me as well.

If prodiamine wasn't labeled in months I don't know how anyone would know how much to put down at a given time. I don't know where he got his label for but unless you made the product and tested it you would be guessing.
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coolluv
08-26-2012, 07:22 AM
Simazine is another two rounds for me as well.

If prodiamine wasn't labeled in months I don't know how anyone would know how much to put down at a given time. I don't know where he got his label for but unless you made the product and tested it you would be guessing.
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What the hell do you know? Your just a hack. lol

Dave...

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 07:24 AM
What the hell do you know? Your just a hack. lol

Dave...

That's right! For someone that claims to read labels, he sure missed that one. ;)

Call me later in the am...
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Duekster
08-26-2012, 09:03 AM
I tested Shaws Dimension .13 percent on fertilizer. I used 4 pounds per thousand, weighed out and applied with hand held spreader. I applied on 3 different dates.
Dim April 12...result....heavy crabgrass
Dim May 1.....result....a few crabgrass plants
Dim May 12...result ....medium crabgrass
UTC.............result....heavy crabgrass

Lawn was low-quality grass on vacant lot. Not irrigated. Due to warm spring a few sprouts of crabgrass had appeared before treatments began. Rain occurred in spring, but then a hot 8 week dry spell ensued. Then a good rain or two in mid August.

From the result, it appears that May first is the best date here in Grand Rapids.

I looked at the germination dates ( average I know) and you appear to be May 1

I would put down the dimension a little earlier than April. Mid to late March and see how that works.

Skipster
08-26-2012, 11:31 AM
Simazine is another two rounds for me as well.

If prodiamine wasn't labeled in months I don't know how anyone would know how much to put down at a given time. I don't know where he got his label for but unless you made the product and tested it you would be guessing.
Posted via Mobile Device

I got my information from the scientists at Syngenta Crop Protection. The label I linked came from the CDMS (Crop Data Management Systems, Inc.) website, which lists the current labels for all major agrochemical producers. Syngenta's Barricade 4FL label was revised in January of 2012 and that latest revision was the one I linked for you. Remember, rates, formulations, and precautionary statements are approved through EPA for the basic manufacturer of the product. So, even though you can buy your prodiamine as Stonewall from JDL, the JDL label must comply with changes made to Syngenta's label, since JDL buys its product from Syngenta and puts its own label on it.

Of course, you're bound to the label on the product you bought. If the product you purchased was labeled before January 2012, it won't have the 2012 revisions on it. I have a feeling this is more complicated than you want to delve into here.

But, for your question of how long you know you're getting protection from the product, I use a combination of soil tests, replicated trials, and customer lawns. Just like the big national companies, I apply several controlled, replicated tests in each of my markets and monitor them at regular intervals for the amount of ai in the soil and for weed activity and control in the test plots. I also rely on feedback from my guys in the field and my own assessment of customer lawns to see how our control and how weed germination are progressing. I also attend WSSA (Weed Science Society of America) and CSSA (Crop Science Society of America) meetings to share my research and keep up with the rest of the scientific community. I also conduct trials for all the basic manufacturers and attend research exchange meetings with them to share my results with the manufacturers and the university researchers.

I don't operate a fly-by-night operation. I don't rely on some graph on a label that was developed by some marketing intern with no turf experience and has no data to back it up. If you guys haven't been in on these label discussions with the manufacturers, then you're being duped bigtime.

Duekster
08-26-2012, 11:38 AM
If you guys haven't been in on these label discussions with the manufacturers, then you're being duped bigtime.

Getting Duped?

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 12:23 PM
I got my information from the scientists at Syngenta Crop Protection. The label I linked came from the CDMS (Crop Data Management Systems, Inc.) website, which lists the current labels for all major agrochemical producers. Syngenta's Barricade 4FL label was revised in January of 2012 and that latest revision was the one I linked for you. Remember, rates, formulations, and precautionary statements are approved through EPA for the basic manufacturer of the product. So, even though you can buy your prodiamine as Stonewall from JDL, the JDL label must comply with changes made to Syngenta's label, since JDL buys its product from Syngenta and puts its own label on it.

Of course, you're bound to the label on the product you bought. If the product you purchased was labeled before January 2012, it won't have the 2012 revisions on it. I have a feeling this is more complicated than you want to delve into here.

But, for your question of how long you know you're getting protection from the product, I use a combination of soil tests, replicated trials, and customer lawns. Just like the big national companies, I apply several controlled, replicated tests in each of my markets and monitor them at regular intervals for the amount of ai in the soil and for weed activity and control in the test plots. I also rely on feedback from my guys in the field and my own assessment of customer lawns to see how our control and how weed germination are progressing. I also attend WSSA (Weed Science Society of America) and CSSA (Crop Science Society of America) meetings to share my research and keep up with the rest of the scientific community. I also conduct trials for all the basic manufacturers and attend research exchange meetings with them to share my results with the manufacturers and the university researchers.

I don't operate a fly-by-night operation. I don't rely on some graph on a label that was developed by some marketing intern with no turf experience and has no data to back it up. If you guys haven't been in on these label discussions with the manufacturers, then you're being duped bigtime.

Good for you. We thank you for helping create our labels...especially the ones with two conflicting uses "for residential" and "not to be used on home lawns"

I am no fly by night, but I expect that when I pay good money for a product I'm paying for research of that product and it's development. I do not have time to apply products to test plots or use my customers as guinea pigs. UGA tests products and CPO get a copy of this data which is on a website and also in a publication that is free...they work with the chemical companies.

It is not part of my job to research chemicals...experiment with different label rates...I am to follow the label.

As far as the label on stonewall...I follow it, it's the law and it's what my Ag inspector would expect me to do so that I follow the law.

So you think the chemical company doesn't use raw data when they create labels?

You sir are off your rocker.
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turfmd101
08-26-2012, 01:00 PM
The labels interpretation of home lawn vs residential.

home lawn means house. can't use product here.

residential means where someone lives ie; apartment complex, condo, townhouse.
these are examples of residential not home lawn. these are also not considered commercial in label terms.

I understand the confusion. hope this helps.

Duekster
08-26-2012, 01:06 PM
The labels interpretation of home lawn vs residential.

home lawn means house. can't use product here.

residential means where someone lives ie; apartment complex, condo, townhouse.
these are examples of residential not home lawn. these are also not considered commercial in label terms.

I understand the confusion. hope this helps.

To be fair to you, you are missing the background of the debate referenced here. It spilled over from another label debate in another thread.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=385605

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 01:18 PM
when there are label changes to a manufacturing companies current product. if JDL is selling the same private label product. the epa sets the rules for which current EPA registration numbered products based on manufacturing dates. JDL may carry same product same bag one clean one dusty. only difference is EPA registration number. so one bag may be required to carry the updated label but the others no. depends on EPA registration number on the label. so the store shelf can have the same exact product with different registration numbers and different labels and each are legal. meaning if someone by chance who sells chemicals were to still have asulox from old label before it lost its commercial/residential label. that product would still be legal to sell and for the customer who owns it now, he can use it on any residence.

turfmd101
08-26-2012, 01:20 PM
thanks, that's cool. just trying to help clarify the residential thing.

Duekster
08-26-2012, 01:21 PM
They do that so people will use it rather than dump it.

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 01:37 PM
And I think Skipster is wrong on the laws of current and past labels. The current label is the law of the product I am applying at the time. I cannot be expected to know when a label has changed.
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turfmd101
08-26-2012, 01:53 PM
forgot to add. different story if revising or pulling the label. please don't hold this to 100% accuracy it's been a while.

Smallaxe
08-26-2012, 06:12 PM
Does the pre-m bond to the same sites as nutrients do? is this tight 3 month bond occur on sand particles? Clay particles? Driveway gravel?

These are the questions that matter, but never addressed... All I have to go on is experience and observations, becuz I've been around too long to believe 'claims' on the label...

Instructions, are different than, claims, and the original thread was about making pre-m last for the season, as it claims...

I claim the stuff leaches away, yet the manufacturer claims it bonds securely to the soil... we can't analyse it so we just leave it to popular opinion, as to who's right about labels??? :)

Duekster
08-26-2012, 06:33 PM
Does the pre-m bond to the same sites as nutrients do? is this tight 3 month bond occur on sand particles? Clay particles? Driveway gravel?

These are the questions that matter, but never addressed... All I have to go on is experience and observations, becuz I've been around too long to believe 'claims' on the label...

Instructions, are different than, claims, and the original thread was about making pre-m last for the season, as it claims...

I claim the stuff leaches away, yet the manufacturer claims it bonds securely to the soil... we can't analyse it so we just leave it to popular opinion, as to who's right about labels??? :)

Here ya go

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/2000QRIC.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=1991%20Thru%201994&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C91THRU94%5CTXT%5C00000015%5C2000QRIC.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p%7Cf&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1

Skipster
08-26-2012, 07:05 PM
And I think Skipster is wrong on the laws of current and past labels. The current label is the law of the product I am applying at the time. I cannot be expected to know when a label has changed.
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Perhaps you have trouble reading. What I said was:

Of course, you're bound to the label on the product you bought. If the product you purchased was labeled before January 2012, it won't have the 2012 revisions on it.

This means that you are only responsible to follow the label that is on the product you're applying at the time. I was telling you was that changes for a particular active ingredient apply to all new labels for that ai, regardless of distributor or labeller.

Stonewall uses prodiamine as its active ingredient. Prodiamine is owned and produced by Syngenta Crop Protection and has been assigned that CAS # of 29091-21-2. Thus, any change to labels carrying prodiamine are subject to the same label requirements. But, remember that it applies to new labels. When a change is made, EPA doesn't mandate it to be retroactive, but allows existing packaged material to be sold and used under the label it had when it was packaged. For example, the decision to restrict triazine herbicides happened in 2008. But, not every single package of atrazine had its RUP label right away, because distributors were allowed to sell the non-RUP product until it was gone.

One exception has been MSMA. Registrants of MSMA can only sell it to distributors until Dec 31, 2012, for sod farm and ROW use, regardless how much they have in stock or labeled. Distributors can only sell it to end users for sod farm and ROW use until June 30, 2013, and end users can only use it until Dec 31, 2013, regardless of how much they have in stock.

Although you think its not your job to research products, it IS your job to keep up-to-date with the industry. You can't serve your customers well if you don't read labels, keep up with industry changes, and understand how products are labeled. EPA thinks LCOs are illiterate hilbillies because they only do what their distributor says and don't learn things for themselves.

Duekster
08-26-2012, 07:11 PM
Perhaps you have trouble reading. What I said was:



This means that you are only responsible to follow the label that is on the product you're applying at the time. I was telling you was that changes for a particular active ingredient apply to all new labels for that ai, regardless of distributor or labeller.

Stonewall uses prodiamine as its active ingredient. Prodiamine is owned and produced by Syngenta Crop Protection and has been assigned that CAS # of 29091-21-2. Thus, any change to labels carrying prodiamine are subject to the same label requirements. But, remember that it applies to new labels. When a change is made, EPA doesn't mandate it to be retroactive, but allows existing packaged material to be sold and used under the label it had when it was packaged. For example, the decision to restrict triazine herbicides happened in 2008. But, not every single package of atrazine had its RUP label right away, because distributors were allowed to sell the non-RUP product until it was gone.

One exception has been MSMA. Registrants of MSMA can only sell it to distributors until Dec 31, 2012, for sod farm and ROW use, regardless how much they have in stock or labeled. Distributors can only sell it to end users for sod farm and ROW use until June 30, 2013, and end users can only use it until Dec 31, 2013, regardless of how much they have in stock.

Although you think its not your job to research products, it IS your job to keep up-to-date with the industry. You can't serve your customers well if you don't read labels, keep up with industry changes, and understand how products are labeled. EPA thinks LCOs are illiterate hilbillies because they only do what their distributor says and don't learn things for themselves.

So we should not listen you either.

Skipster
08-26-2012, 07:15 PM
CGA,
My label shows a chart of months controlled at XX amount per acre also.
I use the .75 to .5 ratio also.......for a split app. Must be a different label that we get considering the information site that Skipster uses. I have read two different labels for the same product..........so there is more than one way to skin a cat and not all states has the same labeling restrictions.
Simazine afterwards for pre on poa annua.........what the barricade don't get.

I didn't ask anyone about their rates, since some guys think their rates are competitive secrets, but let's look at your application and match it with cgaengineer's recommendation. If you double-apped certain areas, they would get 1.5# prodiamine/A (0.75 + 0.75 for first app), then 1# prodiamine/A (0.5 + 0.5 for second app), for a total of 2.5 # prodiamine/A, which exceeds the label max yearly use rate of 1.5# prodiamine/A. This would put you in violation of the label and could lead to Dept of Ag fines.

All I was trying to do was make sure that anyone who thought about following cga's advice double-checked the product and rate they were using, so they don't run into violations and fines.

Are any of you guys required by your states to keep records of applications and provide an invoice to customers telling them what you applied, how much, and to what areas?

I'm just wondering if you're doing the double-apps, how that is reflected in your record keeping and invoices.

Duekster
08-26-2012, 07:54 PM
Are any of you guys required by your states to keep records of applications and provide an invoice to customers telling them what you applied, how much, and to what areas?

I'm just wondering if you're doing the double-apps, how that is reflected in your record keeping and invoices.

Do not have to put it on invoices but have to provide upon request.
Do have to keep records.
Even if treating cracks in a parking lot, there needs to be an estimate of the area treated.

The way I read CGA's comment is that he doubles the pattern on the perimeters of the property. I would include that in my total volume over the whole area. One reason I do not like running on the ragged edge on the annual limits on a product.

Skipster
08-26-2012, 08:05 PM
Do not have to put it on invoices but have to provide upon request.
Do have to keep records.
Even if treating cracks in a parking lot, there needs to be an estimate of the area treated.

The way I read CGA's comment is that he doubles the pattern on the perimeters of the property. I would include that in my total volume over the whole area. One reason I do not like running on the ragged edge on the annual limits on a product.

Interesting. In all the states I've ever worked in, they mandated that I disclose product used in applications to individual areas. It's illegal in every state I've worked in to do what you're saying. Maybe your state is different. But, when I had a company in Texas 3 years ago, it was illegal.

The label also says that you can only apply a particular rate range. It doesn't say that you can use a 2x rate over a half-acre, then say its only a 1x rate b/c you included a non-treated half-acre in that. Treating a half-acre at 2x is still treating that half-acre area at 2x.

So, if you're treating edges and low spots as a double-application, those areas are receiving more than one application, which could run you into label trouble, as my example with Think Green showed.

I understand that law interpretation is left up to each state, but I've never seen a Dept of Ag say that applying to one area, but including it in an application to another area is illegal. In fact, that type of example was an exam question in TX, GA, MI, MT, MN, and CA. That was illegal in all of those states when I took their exams (which was 20 yrs ago for somehttp://www.lawnsite.com/images/smilies/laughing.gif).

Duekster
08-26-2012, 08:11 PM
Not sure what you are digging at. You are telling me you have no overlap what so ever?

I spray the perimeter then fill in the middle.

Mean while I will look at the regs on the invoice. That what way I am education myself and not listening to gossip.

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 09:20 PM
Interesting. In all the states I've ever worked in, they mandated that I disclose product used in applications to individual areas. It's illegal in every state I've worked in to do what you're saying. Maybe your state is different. But, when I had a company in Texas 3 years ago, it was illegal.

The label also says that you can only apply a particular rate range. It doesn't say that you can use a 2x rate over a half-acre, then say its only a 1x rate b/c you included a non-treated half-acre in that. Treating a half-acre at 2x is still treating that half-acre area at 2x.

So, if you're treating edges and low spots as a double-application, those areas are receiving more than one application, which could run you into label trouble, as my example with Think Green showed.

I understand that law interpretation is left up to each state, but I've never seen a Dept of Ag say that applying to one area, but including it in an application to another area is illegal. In fact, that type of example was an exam question in TX, GA, MI, MT, MN, and CA. That was illegal in all of those states when I took their exams (which was 20 yrs ago for somehttp://www.lawnsite.com/images/smilies/laughing.gif).

As long as I don't go over the label rate for a year I'm good...and like Deukster says...I don't run my rates that close. And unless you are using guide wires for your application equipment or heavy dye...I dont see how you would get 100% perfect coverage without overlap...maybe you are an applicator god.

I double apply in swales, some edges of properties where I have experienced problems in the past...this is not every property.
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cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 09:22 PM
I only use the high rates on my large commercial properties and it's still two split applications...my residentuals get several split applications.
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cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 09:27 PM
So Skipster, unless you are my town Ag inspector I don't see any reason why I should listen to much, if anything you suggest. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but we will have to agree to disagree.
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Duekster
08-26-2012, 09:43 PM
He never overlaps either

Skipster
08-26-2012, 10:55 PM
Hang on, guys. Let's talk like business owners, here, and not like techs. I'm not talking about simple overlaps or who has the best spray technique. CGA was talking about intentionally applying double in some areas, which is NOT the same as an unintentional overlap or unintentional poor technique. While overlap or bad technique can result in overapplication, intentional double application is applying a higher rate on purpose. It would be no different than mixing one tank to do the middle of the lawn and mixing a seperate tank with twice the product to do the edges. Those double application areas still get a different rate -- on purpose.

If this is within the rate ranges of your product, then you're fine! Using Think Green's example earlier, if you applied your prodiamine in a 2/3 fb 1/3 split and you applied 0.4#/A fb 0.2#/A your double application areas would get 1.2#/A, and you would be good to go! (as long as you didn't use more than 0.3#/A in the spring) on those areas.

Again, I just didn't want anyone to get pinched by Dept of Ag b/c they weren't paying close enough attention to their rates. If this doesn't apply to you, then you are in the clear!

cgaengineer
08-26-2012, 11:01 PM
Hang on, guys. Let's talk like business owners, here, and not like techs. I'm not talking about simple overlaps or who has the best spray technique. CGA was talking about intentionally applying double in some areas, which is NOT the same as an unintentional overlap or unintentional poor technique. While overlap or bad technique can result in overapplication, intentional double application is applying a higher rate on purpose. It would be no different than mixing one tank to do the middle of the lawn and mixing a seperate tank with twice the product to do the edges. Those double application areas still get a different rate -- on purpose.

If this is within the rate ranges of your product, then you're fine! Using Think Green's example earlier, if you applied your prodiamine in a 2/3 fb 1/3 split and you applied 0.4#/A fb 0.2#/A your double application areas would get 1.2#/A, and you would be good to go! (as long as you didn't use more than 0.3#/A in the spring) on those areas.

Again, I just didn't want anyone to get pinched by Dept of Ag b/c they weren't paying close enough attention to their rates. If this doesn't apply to you, then you are in the clear!

I'm in the clear...by a long shot.
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