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View Full Version : Great ph info chart.


turfmd101
08-27-2012, 11:11 PM
http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/c/c6/PHandavailability.jpg

turfmd101
08-27-2012, 11:13 PM
Fat area ranges good uptake. Thin area range poor uptake.

rob7233
08-28-2012, 10:11 AM
Yes, those are pretty nice - Nutrient availability at various pH ranges.

I've always thought it was interesting how Fe drops off so quickly as approach neutral and higher. What might be the typical pH of rainwater?

Keith
08-28-2012, 02:33 PM
I think I remember reading the ph of rainwater is typically 5-6. In some areas lower than that. I believe this explains why you can water a lawn with an inch of groundwater and it looks nowhere as good as what an inch of rain will do.

Weekend cut easymoney
08-28-2012, 03:02 PM
they claim our treated water is 8.5-9.5 range...I think I understand this is not so good for growing most plants -especially as the soil is extrmely basic as well-

am I understanding this correctly?

turfmd101
08-28-2012, 08:43 PM
Wonder if the range ever fluctuates in rain water. Since optimum pesticide molecule performance is reliant on a specific water ph. Could this be ill effective.
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Landscape Poet
08-28-2012, 09:43 PM
Found this, thought it might be somewhat useful. I would assume that the Ph of natural rain would change from area to area slightly? And Turfmd you would not be applying in a period in which rain is expected anyways right? So the Ph of rainwater would not matter as much as the water in which the pesticide was mixed correct.

Landscape Poet
08-28-2012, 09:44 PM
I would question what the Ph of reclaimed water is more I would think. The city water you would have a little more stable expectations I would think than reclaimed.

Landscape Poet
08-28-2012, 10:03 PM
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/190acidrain.html

Ric
08-28-2012, 10:26 PM
.

pH is only one measure of water quality, Hardest and Bio carbons can have a much greater effect on Turf Grass than the pH of water. Some Golf Course will actually inject sulfuric acid into the Irrigation water because it is cheap and easy to do. Acid forming Fertilizer will help lower pH as will Sulfur. Dolomite etc will Raise pH etc However to change EC is a much harder and expensive to do. Bio Carbons will effect surface tension and Hydraulic conductivity. High EC (Electric Conductivity) or Measurement of soluble salts in a solution, will fill exchange sites and cause Fertilizer or pesticide leaching. Therefore pH of water is the least of our problems.

Basically the pH chart given only tells us what pH range most all element are available in the greatest quantity. Once we know 6.5 is approx that magic point on the pH scale, the chart above is really of no use.

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rob7233
08-28-2012, 10:30 PM
I think I remember reading the ph of rainwater is typically 5-6. In some areas lower than that. I believe this explains why you can water a lawn with an inch of groundwater and it looks nowhere as good as what an inch of rain will do.

The reason that a lawn irrigated with rainwater looks better after verses tap or groundwater is that Nitrogen is very mobile and changes form readily from a gaseous state to being very water soluble being carried by rainwater. A good rain always contains Nitrogen(N) which is taken up by the lawn's root zone. I'm not sure how much but that's likely one reason any given lawn looks better after a good rain. Additionally, I also recall vaugely something about ion exchange with rainwater but can't remember anything else regarding that.

Also that with soil testing, N is not measured since it's so mobile.



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rob7233
08-28-2012, 10:38 PM
Wonder if the range ever fluctuates in rain water. Since optimum pesticide molecule performance is reliant on a specific water ph. Could this be ill effective.
Posted via Mobile Device

Now there's an idea for study and an application for a Governmental Grant!! :clapping:


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turfmd101
08-28-2012, 11:04 PM
Thank you. I put up the chart because I have read some posts about ph in turf being 5-6.5 and they seemed to be focusing on,that must be their main problem . Hoping to get them focused elsewhere. Helps to know it's not a issue. The more things I know it's not.The easier it is to remedy. I just feel some techs go there to quick sometimes. I don't feel its very problematic. Poet you really feel rain apps or rain right after a fresh app is applied is not frequently happening. Come on man. You know the drill. Production - production. By the way probably not good to admit to certain ears but when I was in sales. I focused more on my customers results than margins. My blood runs Green but but it's not tainted with $ greed.
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Ric
08-28-2012, 11:16 PM
Wonder if the range ever fluctuates in rain water. Since optimum pesticide molecule performance is reliant on a specific water ph. Could this be ill effective.
Posted via Mobile Device

The proper notation is Small p with a capital H. The capital H stands for the element of Hydrogen and the small p is a math notation for inverse change.

What is pH?? It is the measurement of the acidic or alkalinity of a SOLUTION by the measurement of the inverse logarithm of the Hydrogen ion. Because it is the INVERSE LOGARITHM of the Hydrogen Ion the larger the pH value the Less Hydrogen ions and of course the lower the pH value the more Hydrogen Ions. A pH of 6 will have 10 time the number Hydrogen Ions as a pH of 7.

A simple $ 19.00 pH meter and pH up (Phosphoric acid) and pH Down (Bicarb) solves any problems of pH effecting the efficacy of a pesticide.

BTW most Whole Milk is 6.5 pH and can be used as a calibration for a pH meter.

pH reading of soil done in professional labs can vary greatly on the same sample. Since pH is the Measurement of Hydrogen Ions in a solution a solution must be added to the soil. Which MOLE SOLUTION is used will effect the number of hydrogen ions released in that sample. Therefore always use the same lab or same method and Mole solution when comparing soil sample history.

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turfmd101
08-28-2012, 11:44 PM
I had that coming! Look I'm no genius, but that's more science that I'll ever use. When I see St. Aug growing 3 ft or more. Or when I see stolins 4ft out into a lake, roots swimming below. Funny thing is its very much alive.
Its doesn't have great color, but it looks very healthy. This turfgrass is tuff real tuff. Ph is almost never the bandit or the main culprit. He's number 2 or 3 side kick. If someone has to us alot of that data science to diagnose something hard to correct. Start with your root system. If its incapable of proper uptake. Whats an application worth?
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jvanvliet
08-29-2012, 07:22 AM
.

pH is only one measure of water quality, Hardest and Bio carbons can have a much greater effect on Turf Grass than the pH of water. Some Golf Course will actually inject sulfuric acid into the Irrigation water because it is cheap and easy to do. Acid forming Fertilizer will help lower pH as will Sulfur. Dolomite etc will Raise pH etc However to change EC is a much harder and expensive to do. Bio Carbons will effect surface tension and Hydraulic conductivity. High EC (Electric Conductivity) or Measurement of soluble salts in a solution, will fill exchange sites and cause Fertilizer or pesticide leaching. Therefore pH of water is the least of our problems.

Basically the pH chart given only tells us what pH range most all element are available in the greatest quantity. Once we know 6.5 is approx that magic point on the pH scale, the chart above is really of no use.

.

But it's purdy...:p

Landscape Poet
08-29-2012, 07:48 AM
. Poet you really feel rain apps or rain right after a fresh app is applied is not frequently happening. Come on man. You know the drill. Production - production.
Posted via Mobile Device

No I live in reality. I have seen some companies apply during a rain with rain suit on. What they were applying I have no idea. I seen it yesterday as well while it was storming.

jvanvliet
08-29-2012, 06:28 PM
:confused: I wonder if you should put soap on the lawns during rain

Landscape Poet
08-29-2012, 08:46 PM
:confused: I wonder if you should put soap on the lawns during rain

As long as you apply Jet Dry too so that you do not leave streaks :dancing:

greendoctor
08-29-2012, 10:30 PM
I would kill to have soil with a pH range of 5-6.5. Based on the colored chart you put up, most of the essential elements are available. Problem is when pH in the irrigation water is above 7 and the soil pH is also above 7. Most warm season grasses with the exception of centipede grass and bahia grass are not that picky about being above 6.5. It does get hairy if you are expecting ornamentals to do well.

I hate to see applications done right before a 1" per hour rainstorm. No call for it in my area. Those only happen but a few times a year. There are many days where it is not going to rain like that at no more than 20" per year annual rainfall.

Skipster
08-30-2012, 12:07 AM
The reason that a lawn irrigated with rainwater looks better after verses tap or groundwater is that Nitrogen is very mobile and changes form readily from a gaseous state to being very water soluble being carried by rainwater. A good rain always contains Nitrogen(N) which is taken up by the lawn's root zone. I'm not sure how much but that's likely one reason any given lawn looks better after a good rain. Additionally, I also recall vaugely something about ion exchange with rainwater but can't remember anything else regarding that.

Also that with soil testing, N is not measured since it's so mobile.


I might disagree that N delivery via rainwater is meaningful. In fact, the studies I did years back showed N from rainwater was almost nonexistent. Rainwater may dissolve soem gaseous N2 from the atmosphere, but N2 isn't plant available. Some plant available N can be made in a reaction with lightning, but this usually adds 0.02 #N/M, so it doesn't add much.

Rainwater usually perks up lawns because most irrigated lawns use treated municipal water, which usually has a pH in the mid 8s, which haxs a liming effect each time the lawn is irrigated. Lower pH rainwater helps to bring pH in range for N forms to be more easily available.

Like you, I find soil testing for N to be unnecessary and to have little value. But, I was raked over the coals on this board for suggesting that. I wonder if anyone will rake you over the coals for doing the same? :)

greendoctor
08-30-2012, 12:21 AM
N levels in soil are something I actually ignore, unless they are sky high because of someone pounding an area with fertilizer due to lack of response. True story: I have had soil test results come back advising no more fertilization. Soil pH was the issue causing the poor growth.

bug-guy
08-30-2012, 12:31 AM
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ss317

"Nitrogen

Nitrogen is used in larger quantities than any of the other applied nutrients and needs to be applied on a regular basis to most turfgrasses grown in Florida lawns. The Florida Extension Soil Testing Laboratory does not analyze for soil N. Nitrogen is mobile in Florida’s sandy soils and correlations can not be established between analytical soil N and turfgrass response; therefore, N recommendations are based on the turfgrass N requirement. The actual quantity of N required depends on a number of factors: type of turfgrass being grown; turfgrass quality desired; type of soil and quantity of water the turfgrass receives, either through irrigation or natural rainfall; region of the state where turgrass is being grown; amount of shade under which the turfgrass is grown -- shaded turfgrass requires less N than does turfgrass grown in full sun; and disposition of clippings during mowing practices, (if clippings are discarded more N will be needed to sustain the same quality as if clippings were returned). Detailed N fertilizer recommendations for turfgrasses are available in Soil and Water Science Department Fact Sheet General Recommendations for Fertilization of Turfgrasses on Florida Soils, http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LH014."

Ric
08-30-2012, 01:26 AM
I would kill to have soil with a pH range of 5-6.5. Based on the colored chart you put up, most of the essential elements are available. Problem is when pH in the irrigation water is above 7 and the soil pH is also above 7. Most warm season grasses with the exception of centipede grass and bahia grass are not that picky about being above 6.5. It does get hairy if you are expecting ornamentals to do well.

I hate to see applications done right before a 1" per hour rainstorm. No call for it in my area. Those only happen but a few times a year. There are many days where it is not going to rain like that at no more than 20" per year annual rainfall.

Florida's Gulf Coast is mostly Calcareous Sand with a average pH of 9.5. I dealt with alkaline sand for so long I don't know any thing else. I use only acid forming fertilizers and still fight for color by adding tons of minors elements.

A quick story. A new customer had the Big box Fert & Squirt company. His lawn was still yellow after their expert had soil samples etc. I don't how the fool missed the 10.5 pH on the soil report. I went to Walmart just a few Blocks away and found a straight Ammonium Sulfate Fertilizer with no minors. About a week later all the fertilizer the Big Box people put out, kicked in and I got the credit for their fertilizer.

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greendoctor
08-30-2012, 01:37 AM
Didn't you get the memo: Slow release urea is supposed to be the do all, be all and end all for lawn fertilization. Using AS is antique. Why would you have to find AS in a Wallyword? Is it because the treehugging granola eaters banned it for professional use because it is not slow release urea? On a lawn with anything over 7.0, I am also throwing in 5 lb of DF sulfur in addition to the AS and micronutrients. Do not try this on lawns that cannot be irrigated after application.

Ric
08-30-2012, 12:45 PM
Didn't you get the memo: Slow release urea is supposed to be the do all, be all and end all for lawn fertilization. Using AS is antique. Why would you have to find AS in a Wallyword? Is it because the treehugging granola eaters banned it for professional use because it is not slow release urea? On a lawn with anything over 7.0, I am also throwing in 5 lb of DF sulfur in addition to the AS and micronutrients. Do not try this on lawns that cannot be irrigated after application.

I was Lazy and Wally World was only one mile up the street. I had looked at fertilizer a few days before and saw a 16-4-8 100% AS and K2SO4. I think it had a 3% Fe also. I was surprise they would carry a Lawn Burner Like that. Of course I have posted about Sulfur application many times. 10 Lb of 0-0-0-90 per thousand lowers pH one point in 30 days. 30 days mean it takes 30 days to release the sulfur.


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greendoctor
08-31-2012, 07:32 AM
AS and K2SO4? Two things I seldom see in a fertilizer blended for Hawaii. Even though those two sources would be totally correct. Most landscape plants and turfgrass species are not halophytes. If someone applied that AS and K2SO4 blend evenly at no more than 2 lb per 1000 sq ft every 4 weeks, that is a good program. Much better than KCl and your coated urea du jour. I have to think about Cl. Clay holds on to Cl and there is significant salt in irrigation water.

Ric
08-31-2012, 01:15 PM
AS and K2SO4? Two things I seldom see in a fertilizer blended for Hawaii. Even though those two sources would be totally correct. Most landscape plants and turfgrass species are not halophytes. If someone applied that AS and K2SO4 blend evenly at no more than 2 lb per 1000 sq ft every 4 weeks, that is a good program. Much better than KCl and your coated urea du jour. I have to think about Cl. Clay holds on to Cl and there is significant salt in irrigation water.

At Twice the money of straight urea & KCL, AS and K2SO4 had better have a Great response. Yes this is a spoon feed blend that also means more labor. Add in a few minors and Some insecticide and you have my tank mix. Ratios of N to K etc change per season.

The point is in this case I wanted a faster response than Sulfur would give me. Sulfur lasts longer because it dissolved slowly. BTW because of our high pH, many homeowner will use a water can once a week filled 50/50 vinegar and water on their plants.

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lawngrazers
09-27-2012, 07:26 PM
Is there a soil Ph test kit that is somewhat reliable. I believe that would be the first thing to check before applying any product.