Water ordinances and rules/laws

[DanaMac]

What rules or laws are out there for irrigation to ensure proper irrigation installation and prevent water loss or run-off? Colorado Springs City Council, which is the board of directors for the city utilities, is creating a landscape ordinace with help from some local landscapers. I know of a few rules so far that are going into effect:

Mandatory rain sensors on new installs. Not sure about existing systems. This is seems to always be the first thing they ask for when these problems come up. Bad thing is, we didn't get any damn rain for them to work last year.

Heads with check valves are going to be mandatory. Not sure if that is for all heads through out the systems, or just on major slopes.

I believe they are also forbidding any new systems with auto drains.

I've heard mention of master valves but not sure if they are going that route. I don't like them on residential. Then I can't work on the system if they are not home if the master valve is inside.

I do believe in the licensing but that is a state issue not a city one I believe. How are your rules/laws enforced? Is every system checked out by someone?

[Ground Master]

Dana, I had not heard of or council implementing this ordinace.

Hell, they can't even figure out how to resolve traffic issues within our city......now they are getting into this.

They ought to enforce the watering restrictions that were mandated last summer. I'm sure you've seen (like I have) many violating it.

Heads with check valves?.......is this every head on a zone?........or just those on slopes?

master valves?.......what the hell will that do?............Its very rare that a system keeps on running when a valve won't shut off.

I can see the rain sensor thing.....but thats another minimalistic approach.

They need to persue commercial and industrial users.......they are by far the biggest wasters of water.......

[DanaMac]

Council talked aboit it at one of the meetings I was at last summer. And they are meeting with a few of the bigger companies here but I don't want to name them here. It is going to include how much turf you can put down on your lot as well. Some percentage.

They are also talking about no turf for areas under 3 or 4 feet in width. This would include the narrow areas between homes in the tract home neiborhoods and the lame strip between the sidewalk and street.

Check valves - like I said I don't know if it is all or only on slopes
Master valve - I like it for new commercial sites. And it would lower some water usage for a lot of homeowners but I don't want it for resi. My biz is maily repair and service and many calls I get are for stuck valves.

Rain sensor - good devices BUT if we have no rain they don't help, and Ground Maaster you know the afternoon thunderstoms we usually get in the summer. These would shut a lot of the sensors down but it usually isn't enough water for the lawn. Especially if we can only water 2-3 times a week.

Commercial and industrial users - definitely big wastes. And hopefully something will also be done about that.

[Ground Master]

Pretty much agree with all your points........

I just think the council is paying lip service to the public by trying to micro-manage every little detail of someones yard.....

They should stick with general policys like water restrictions.

Like I said in a previous post, the issue becomes enforcement........why create a policy that can not be enforced?

They can't even enforce water restrictions......

I'll give them credit for trying, but they are not looking at the big picture.

[DanaMac]

Newest update for our ordinances - these are not official yet but will supposedly be in effect starting March 15th

This list if for new systems installed in Colorado Springs:
ALL sprinkler heads will have check valves
ALL systems will have master valves
ALL systems will get rain sensors
No auto drains
Pressure set below 65 psi to prevent fogging
No above grond watering of grass sections less than 8' wide - this eliminates the narrow sections between the street and sidewalk-but if you have 5' on the side of the house and your neighbor has 5' this becomes 10' and is OK
Rotors/sprays/drip all seperate zones
Water budget feature on all timers
5000 sq ft of sod or 60% of landscape area-whichever is LESS-landscape area is the lot minus the footprint of the home. Footprint does not include driveway and sidewalk.
No more than 30% of landscaped area(lot minus home footprint) can be rock/concrete-this includes driveway
Permits need to be obtained for ALL new landscaping from utility department - if not or if not in compliance then there will be a fine with a max up to $1000. After that, city utilities will install a flow restictor at your water meter
More ordinaces for the landscaping but I'm not sure what they are

This info has been passed to me, and has not been put fully into action yet.

Groundmaster - makes it difficult now doesn't it :(

They are also coming up with plans for rebates on revamping systems to become more efficient. No details yet.

[Ground Master]

I see that there is gonna be a landscape symposium feb. 21 and 22 at the fine arts center. Guess I'll have to drop the $60 fee to see whats going on. It looks like the new landscape ordinance will be discussed on that friday.

We need to come up with some better ideas....

[devildog]

Hey guys .....take a moment to think about the silver-lining in this cloud. Have you taken time to think about all the rehab work this will create and low-ballers that this ordinance drive away, etc. etc. etc. Take a proactive approach, you ought to be writing letters to the newpaper, acknowledging the efforts of the gov, get on the radio, do interviews on camera with TV station !!!
.....HELLO !!! How much more encouragement do you need to take advantage of this !!! with regards... devildog

[Ground Master]

I'm just anti-government. I don't want them in every little aspect of out lives. In my opinion, the water restriction that were put in place last year is as far as I believe they should go.

Furthermore the ordinance points that were brought up by danamac seem trival. I don't believe they will result in significant water savings. I feel that Colorado Springs utilities did a poor job of enforcing the water restrictions we had last year. If they would just diligently enforce the restrictions in place, we would be better off. Now our council wants more regulations.........It will be interesting to see what happens.

[turfman59]

I am not familiar with your area. or how big your community is but my main question is who is going to police these ordinances?

The sprinkler police or what, After being a Mayor for 3 terms I look at this as nothing more than the council burying there heads in the sand. The crap that there mandating( proposed) is not the real meat of water conservation. Like was past posted the problem is in industry. How much recirculation is being done in industry and how much treated water is being sold back to them?

I just talked to our Water Dept Manager about Reclaimed treated water and he said " Why would I want to cut our throat and sell them cheaper water when I can get the full dollar from fresh water " I just shook my head. After all I am just a novice. Please keep this site posted for further developments. Regards

[DanaMac]

I think the way they will police it is by adding more inspectors to the payroll. I'm thinking inspectors such as the plumbing, electrical, framing ones that check on construction permits. I'm not positive though. And I don't know how it will be funded. Permits alone won't pay for the salaries.

I like some of the ideas but not all. Hate the master valve idea. I can see it on a commercial property but not a resi. If the MV is inside the home I can't work on it or winterize it without them being home. Most homes here don't have outdoor timers.

[Ground Master]

The Colorado Springs and surrounding area has 500,000 to 600,000 people.

Dana- you could install the master valve downstream of the PVB as the first valve in the valve box. Tha way you have access to it.

I don't think rain sensors will have much effect. What about wind sensors? You know around here those would save more water then rain sensors.

Why not moisture sensors? They would be a much better choice then a rain sensor.

Turfman- you are dead on with the council burying there heads in the sand. They can't even deal with the traffic issues we have........

What about sending out the gestapo to require every existing 5 gallon a minute toilet be replaced?, what about inspecting every shower for those that circumvent the low-flow shower devices.

The whole city will be one big homeowner association.......

[Ground Master]

I just had a brain storm (or brain fart as some of you may intepret this)............why not require every NEW and EXISTING landscaped property to have a sprinkler system?

This could save millions of gallons of water. If the property owner doesn't want to spend money on a sprinkler system, there outside faucets are sealed shut by the newly created OWP's (Outdoor Water Police)........

[turfman59]

If you want the General Public to conserve water, Raise the Price.
OOOps I hope they didnt hear that

[Bob Minney]

Originally posted by Ground Master
I just had a brain storm (or brain fart as some of you may intepret this)............why not require every NEW and EXISTING landscaped property to have a sprinkler system?

This could save millions of gallons of water. If the property owner doesn't want to spend money on a sprinkler system, there outside faucets are sealed shut by the newly created OWP's (Outdoor Water Police)........

Take a look at this link to proposed ordinances by Denver water. Said system w/o sensors use more water. Seems like a good idea to require them but they are going to have to be maintained. Think that will happen? If we keep building houses we're going to have to build more storage capacity.


http://www.water.denver.co.gov/indexmain.html

[DanaMac]

GM - they (people deciding these ordinances) are going to choose where the MV is installed - indoors or outdoors. I would prefer out but don't see them going for it. Hope they do but won't hold my breath. They are still up in the air on the placement though.

[SprinklerGuy]

sounds to me like the most professional and legal companies will be doing lots more work in the coming years.

Think about it!

Lowballers and dirtbags will no longer be able to do landscaping or sprinkler systems because permits will need to be pulled...can they pull a permit without business license etc?

Now colorado springs needs to require all irrigation companies to be licensed/bonded/insured and perhaps take a course in water auditing/management etc. This will get rid of more dirtbags.

IN fact....now maybe I will start up here soon....cept I got too many irons in the fire as it is.

Maybe someone wants a partner that is good at marketing/sales?

Seriously though dana and groundmaster, I think as devildog says, this is a great opportunity to put some spacing between yourselves and the dirtbags. Also, with clever marketing right after the council publishes these things....wow! You could really do some retrofits. especially when the rebates are announced. Man oh man......small town like this is pretty easy to absolutely cover the areas you want to work in with your name.....WWWOOOOWWWWW!

[DanaMac]

I am definitely planning on doing the retrofit/revamp idea. I don't know about trying to push installs. In my mind, if I was a consumer I wouldn't want to spend $2000-$5000 on a system if I could only use it twice a week (which is what they are talking about for the new restrictions). Cost is definitely going to be higher this year due to the new requirements. Now if I did full landscaping then yes of course I would do the installs. I will if people with existing lawns call about it. But I am not going to waste my time marketing and pushing for installs alone.

I'll post up what they decide on the rebate program.

Also council (it has actually not been council making these ideas up, but a utility panel which is proposing them to council) decided yesterday that 60% sod is too much. They are looking at no more than 40-50% max. They are also against the max percentage for rocks and concrete. Their thoughts are someone could put in grass, and just let it die. They would not have to pay for water and the lawn would look like crap. So why not let the home owners put in rock which would look better than dead grass.

[Ground Master]

I guess I'm just not convinced that our council and/or these ideas are worthy........

I'm asuming this ordinace will be for new systems only?

But, I do like the water restrictions that were put into affect last year. I had one of my best years with sprinkler repairs because I did quite a few renovations/revamps of systems. I rarely do installs.....But, it may be time to get back into that aspect of things.

Tony- I thought you were doing installs here?

[turfman59]

Now this makes more sense, a Steering Committee made up of local Landscapers O"K" This is classic City Council not wanting to look like the bad guy, they annointed a steering committe to do the work for them, If there isnt at least 2 City Council members on this committee I would call'em on that. Landscape Ordinances should not be formulated at local levels. The best way is to adopt ordinances developed by Professional Engineering firms, that have been implemented by other communitys and have the bugs worked out. Its just how its done.

A couple of posts back someone mentioned Dirt Bags and Low ballers. If I could speak to this a minute....Now that I have your attention KEEP THE GOVT OUT OF THE LANDSCAPE BUSINESS!!!
If you want to curb the new developing sprinkler Entrepenuers get the suppliers that are selling them components to require the business license or tax ID# Belong to the legitimate club rather than the Bay of the Moon Club... Your suppliers are where you want to start Not the Govt. When people start talking about more licenses and more inspectors is when I grab my wallet and start backing up slowly.......Instead of Classifing these new guys as Dirt bags, put your arm around them... this man is your brother. Mayor Bruce Robinson

[SprinklerGuy]

keep the government out of the landscape business???

How about tax licenses and business licenses?

Why is it a bad idea to have a guy putting in 10k landscapes be licensed to do so by an appropriate agency? In Arizona we have to be a licensed contractor to perform over 750 in work. That has it's advantages.....If the consumer is educated to this fact, the low-balling dirtbags that charge 10 bucks a man hour and take 15 days to install a system are put out of business.

Why shouldn't the consumer be protected from a guy that says "i can do anything, I'm a handyman" and then proceeds to f*** up the guys yard?

Why shouldn't legitamate businesses be protected from this same guy?

I'm all for bad systems going in and my companies repairing them but we don't get to repair many of them....the people really hate it when we are going to charge twice as much to make it right as it cost to do it wrong the first time.

I don't care what you say, the majority of the lowballer dirtbags are just that. I'm sure there are quite a few that are just guys trying to get by....but I was that guy once. As soon as I found out about the rule, the licensed contractor rule, I got one.

Getting the suppliers to require a license doesn't work...they aren't buying from a supplier, they are buying from HDepot and Lowes...that's another thread all in itself.

Until we regulate the irrigation industry as a whole, much like the plumbers and HVAC people have done, we will always have this problem.

Luckily for me...I grew most of my client base while I was a lowballing dirtbag...and they've all stayed with me. I really feel sorry for a guy starting out in a legitimate way now days...he's got no chance.

[turfman59]

Any person starting out in this business should be legititmate, the laws already exist( That is tax laws) on the premise that if you sell a system you must charge sales tax period. If you are doing anything else you are violating the law. You dont need to create more laws to make people obey the original law, it just doesnt work. As long as you have classified yourself as a Low balling Dirt bag then I must think that it is an affectionate term and not a Classicst remark that you are judging others by. My first sprinkler system came from Century Rain aid ( now JDL ) They were the only way that I could pull it off, with my lack of expirence I must have called them 6 times to make sure I was on track. Home Depot is just a secondary supplier when you run short and are in a pinch beleive me that happens alot when you are starting out, you want to have your money in your pocket not in inventory, Let me embelish a little on the supplier controlling the start up guys... When a contractor is called by a new account they take the new co.s information, Data that would include pertinent tax info like Sales Tax ID # How many people in your organization, Yearly projected Volume ect,ect, When the term low baller pops into there brain they at that time offer a free courtesy call by one of there on the road merchandisers, this is critical to the industry he is a skilled installer, designer, or at least a good service tech. He would be at there disposal during the course of the first install and oversee the project, This is not a pie in the sky approach Food Service has done this for Years and they work on tighter margins than most Landscaper Corporations. The key is that when this guy starts out he isnt paying the same price a guy thats been doing it for 10 years and making his living off from it. Your statement about ""a guy starting out legitimately couldnt make it" is presumptuous. I am just glad you and I can sit here and debate this subject and still sign off as friends. Thanks again for your time

[DanaMac]

the major suppliers may be able to do that (make contractors provide tax ID) if they choose to(although they won't), but what about the little local suppliers? We have a local plumbing supply company that pushes hard for the do-it-yourselfer and they get a lot of the "dirtbag or lowball" installers buying from them. This is a small locally owned company (and there is one other that is not a major chain supplier). I can guarantee that they will not demand tax or federal ID numbers. The reason the "lowballers" shop there to begin with partly because they can't get an account at Ewing, United Green Mark, etc. due to credit, reputation, whatever. They may pay more there but it is still cheaper than full retail price. These are the guys that think if they charge $40, they are making $40. Hell, even some of the real suppliers sell full retail to the homeowner if they come in. I don't like it, but they do it anyway.

Now that I have your attention KEEP THE GOVT OUT OF THE LANDSCAPE BUSINESS!!!

That totally contradicts what you say in the next sentence get the suppliers that are selling them components to require the business license or tax ID# You want the govt to stay out of landscaping but now you want the landscaper to provide a govt issued ID # or license to ba able to purchase parts?

I DO think the govt or regional building should govern this. Just as an electrician, plumber, general building contractor must be licensed and their work inspected. It provides saftey for the homeowner that the job was done right, and it provides an industry standard. Sure there are guys that will still do electrical "on the side" without a license, but that is the homeowners choice at that time. And the homeowners must also be educated and informed that these services be licensed and inspected for the process to work properly.

[Clay]

More "Big Brother" control is simply not needed to lower water consumption.... You simply hit the consumer where it gets their attention... IN THE WALLET....

We went through all sorts of fines and restrictions in Vegas, but nothing worked UNTIL they simply set up a 3 stage water bill on usage... x amount up to x gallons, then the price goes up on the next x gallons, and then a third level goes even higher....

Man, as soon as the first water bill hit, my customers were all asking how we could cut it back.... They were willing to spend thousands just to save a few bucks monthly.... You just gotta love the mindset of some people... lol...

Hang tough... it will all work out...

You might want to give a suggestion at that meeting... "Experience is the greatest teacher, especially when it is someone elses!"..... Just suggest that they do what Vegas did... problem solved...

Good Luck, Clay

[turfman59]

Maybe I should have added a comma
The general tax laws have been here before you and I started in this business I can live with them, not a problem. I can pay my taxes, I am not anti tax I am pro free enterprise, it is the general business mentality that says add more govt to these low ballers,we got to get rid of these darn lowballers, more inspections more rules more legislation, Govt please protect my investment from these Dirt bags, I am in favor of taxation on a fair an level playing field. The major suppliers need to here from you on the low ballers or the uneducated installers, Not the freaking politicians.
If a backflow preventer is installed in Michigan it has to be put on by a licensed plumber, Yah who the **** wrote that piece of legislation, The licensed plumbers could care less about the things in my neck of the woods or else I would have heard from more than 4 of them by now. You cant pass laws to make people obey the original laws, The little supply houses are just like the little contractors, they watch the Big Guys to see what there doing and imitate. If the Major suppliers want to sell to the Home Owner, fine with me but it better be at list if they got any brains at all. The supplier has all the cards in my opinion. I go back to the original intent that I think you missed, If you sell a completed system it must be taxed, if your not doing that you are a non legititmate business man and are a fraud. Just go ahead and pick your own prison. LOL: Looking forward to your responses

[turfman59]

I really find it hard to beleive that the commercial users in that pricing format rolled over and played dead for that policy, again it targets the smallest percentage users the home owners. I'd really like to see the Plant managers( see that proposal) at the Textron, PPG, or Dean Foods plants In my town They would fall out of there chairs laughing there ***es off. The next step is they would get there employees stirred up about it and the unions and somebody would be building a gallows for tomorrows High noon lynching. One plant alone in my community uses 750 million gallons of water a year with 1300 employees under one roof, and has for more than 25 years, ( and they chased Perrier away because they were only going to pump 300 gallons a minute and bottle it for drinking,) Our town is 1850 people with a water system big enough for 30,000 people. who do ya think is paying the Bills here, also we have the lowest water rates in the state of michigan.

[HBFOXJr]

NJ is a very developed market. In the north water comes primarily from resevoirs and in the from wells. Over the last many decades, population has grown dramatically and the water supply has remained unchanges or unimproved. We're used to restrictions.

We have a state license requirement, rain shutoff rules etc. They are not a problem. I don't see the master valve thing but could live with it too. I have so few in season failures on valves that it is a non issue.

Actually I think that the master valve is a detriment to conservation. Without the master, the client knows imemdiately when a valve is stuck on. He shuts the system down and gets it fixed. If the master hides that from him, the offending valve can continue to function for a long period of time thereby wasting a riverfull of water till discovered. Additionally, the other zones will work poorly thereby wasting that water as well. Soempeople just think they are smarter than what they are.

Dirtballs, aka lowballers. I just got back from Florida. In the news
for consumers was beware of "travelers". Contractors from the north that go south for the winter to prey upon unsuspecting consumers for home services. The inicident was a crumbly paved driveway. I guess the out of state license plates or the cheap price were no clue. Consumers that make decisions whether deliberate or impulse to spend capital $$$'s on a cheap price get what they deserve. I find it hard to believe that a 50-80 year old person can buy something like a drive or addition or a roof from the first and or only guy that comes along or has the lowest price and not have red flags go up. Licensing has done little for us in NJ because consumers still seek these people out based on price or quick availability. And nothing generates more word of mouth referals than having the cheapest price in town.

[Ground Master]

http://www.springsgov.com/AgendasResults.asp?AMID=526

heres the latest water ordinance info for colorado springs. Its difficult to find amonst all the other stuff, but is there.

look under utilities business #6

[DanaMac]

GM - I was at the meeting today and council is still somewhat clueless. The meeting was actually on tv. If you have Adelphia Cable it was channel 18

Thay are going with-
Mastervalve which can be within 6 feet downstream of the backflow preventer
Heads with checkvalves
No auto drains
Rainsensors
Timers with multiple programs
No above ground watering of areas less than 8' wide unless abutting areas with the same type materials to combine for over 8'. So no 6' of grass on your side and 6' of shrubs on the neighbor's. It has to be grass abutting grass.
No more than 60% of landscapeable area can be HIGH water usage grass. This means our typical kentucky blue. But you can have more if it is a LOW water usage grass.
Soil has to be amended to 3 cubic yards of topsoil per 1000 sq feet of turf (sometype of better mixed soil, not exact on what kind they are talking about though)
$75 permit fee for new landscaping which must be approved by Colorado Springs Utilities (CSU) and inspected to meet those requirements
$50 permit fee for renovation of landscaping that (I believe) changes 40% of landscaping
Fines up to $1000 for non-compliance but refunded if fixed within 30 days. Water disconnect or flow restriction (at cost of homeowner) after that.

All their figures on how much water will be saved was based on a figure of 2800 new homes built in town this year. I still want an incentive and rebate plan for existing homes i.e - taking out a percentage of grass, install of rain sensor, replace old mechanical timers, install the master valve, replace heads with check valves. According to vice mayor, we have a $1 million budget for that. But they have yet come up with guidelines for it.

HB I totally agree on the mastervalve wasting more water.

Not all council members agreed 100%. But they did agree that it has to start somewhere. So this is the starting point and it can be amended as we go from here.

[Ground Master]

I printed out the proposed ordinance and you are right on.

It also states that it only applies to homes and duplexes. What about apartments, commercial sites, etc?

Another curoius point, "paved areas and inorganic cover shall not exceed 30 percent of the net lot area"........I'm thinking if someone wants to rock there yard, more power to 'em.

You mentioned ths is based on 2800 new homes built in town this year........what percentage is that of all homes in the area?
I'm guessing 2 or 3 percent? Seems like alot of wasted time for such a minimal amount.

Did anyone bring up water restrictions for the year? If so, were there any ideas on modifying them?

-Tom

[DanaMac]

Yes it only applies to single family home and duplexes. There are already ordinances in place from the '96 or '98 commercial property ordinance. But some things from this will be put in place aas well. MV, rainsensor, soil amendment, check valve heads, no auto drains.

Also no high water gras on a 4:1 slope for resi and 6:1 on commercial

The inorganic material thing - they are trying to prevent people from going to all rock. I think they should only be regulating how much turf is going in. Not be the landscape police. People could put in grass and let it die and then decide not to water it. They would still be in compliance yet the yard would look crappy compared to all rock. That was debated tween the council.

Not sure of the percentage of single and dual family homes that is. there are so many new homes in town though that won't be affected. I don't believe all homes east of Powers are in the city. Most are on the Cherokee water distrct.

They really did not talk restrictions. Yet. but here will be some in place.

[Clay]

Originally posted by turfman59
I really find it hard to beleive that the commercial users in that pricing format rolled over and played dead for that policy, again it targets the smallest percentage users the home owners. I'd really like to see the Plant managers( see that proposal) at the Textron, PPG, or Dean Foods plants In my town They would fall out of there chairs laughing there ***es off. The next step is they would get there employees stirred up about it and the unions and somebody would be building a gallows for tomorrows High noon lynching. One plant alone in my community uses 750 million gallons of water a year with 1300 employees under one roof, and has for more than 25 years, ( and they chased Perrier away because they were only going to pump 300 gallons a minute and bottle it for drinking,) Our town is 1850 people with a water system big enough for 30,000 people. who do ya think is paying the Bills here, also we have the lowest water rates in the state of michigan.

Bruce, Different size mains were given different rates... It was suppose to be designed to make the "over average" users pay the higher rates... All I know is that when my customers were hit with higher water bills, they were ready to listen (and pay) for ways to reduce their water bill....

In a city approaching 2 million with less than 4 inches of rain a year and 100+ degree temps, and year round irrigation, the water bill would usually average about the same price as their monthly landscape maintenance... I could almost bid their landscape maintenance over the phone just by asking the price of their monthly water bill... :-)

[DanaMac]

Now here is the official decision - they decided not to decide at all! What a bunch of idiots. No landscaping ordinances this year and maybe not for 2 years or more. They will however still be useing water restrictions.

the landscape ordinance they proposed was only going to save appx. just under one million gallons a day right now. More as the city grew. But the water restrictions they imposed last year were saving over 20 million gallons a day. So it has been postponed.

I hope they now focus on education and communication to the public about what can be done to save water by their own personal decisions. Such as top soil before sod (yes some put sod directly on top of sand), voluntary choice of check valve heads and no auto drains, proper aeration and fertilization, 2-3 days a week watering, allowing the lawn to survive- not thrive, and basic common sense ideas that most seem to be lacking.

[SprinklerGuy]

Hey too bad they weren't really stupid...maybe they would have told all homeowners that they had to convert their shrub sprays to drip within 2 years and they had to use a licensed contractor with the word "sprinkler or sprinklers" as the first word in their company name!!!!!:D :cool: :)

[Ground Master]

woohoooooo.......

I for one don't think its governments business to micromanage every 8000 square foot piece of land in the city......

I'm also thinking they realized that ENFORCING such an ordinance would be impractical at best.......and most likely impossible.

Its just plain easier to keep water restrictions in place.......