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georgialawn88
09-01-2012, 03:41 PM
If msma is sold but can only be used on golf courses and farms who stops you from putting it on res. lawns? If you buy it does someone check you and see where your putting it out at? please dont blast me in just asking a question. ive never bought the stuff and just got my licence. thanks

Duekster
09-01-2012, 03:44 PM
I thought it was restricted to corn fields.

ReddensLawnCare
09-01-2012, 04:26 PM
One of those things where we as applicators are trusted. If you use it and get caught it could be a big headache
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kbrashears
09-01-2012, 04:31 PM
I'm responsible to a fault. But if I had msma I'd use it.

Banning it was stupid.

grassman177
09-01-2012, 07:41 PM
Still got some:)
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Duekster
09-01-2012, 07:44 PM
Does it go bad?

andyslawncare
09-01-2012, 08:56 PM
No one will be looking down your back, but if you happen to be stopped by an informed officer, you may we watched. I'm sure the supply house and the manufacture don't mind the sales.

Good question about if it goes bad? I still have 5 gallons on hand; hoping that the EPA changes its mind. I don't use it or carry it on a truck because I value my license, and other products such as revolver and solitare help some; not nearly as much as MSMA did. I'm also wondering if it goes bad? My supply is stored inside a shed in the dark.

cgaengineer
09-01-2012, 09:11 PM
I've had a jug for two-three years...still works great and I'm still using it.
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fireman gus
09-01-2012, 09:11 PM
Luckily I still have some with the old label so am able to use it. However the only way someone will know if you are using it is if they take a tank sample and test for it.

cgaengineer
09-01-2012, 09:12 PM
There will be a paper trail showing when you purchased it...if DOA audits the chem supplier it could come back to you.
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woodlawnservice
09-01-2012, 09:21 PM
There will be a paper trail showing when you purchased it...if DOA audits the chem supplier it could come back to you.
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Not always the case.. I know of suppliers that sell as much as u want ( long as its in stock) to whoever wants it. Cash money no paper trails to ever lead to u
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cgaengineer
09-01-2012, 09:25 PM
Not always the case.. I know of suppliers that sell as much as u want ( long as its in stock) to whoever wants it. Cash money no paper trails to ever lead to u
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There is a paper trail where supplier bought it...Don't think for a minute they wouldn't stab you in the back of their feet were held to the fire.
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georgialawn88
09-01-2012, 09:29 PM
whats the chances of this happening?

woodlawnservice
09-01-2012, 09:32 PM
And if the supplier does not know u by name..... good luck to them or even trying to prove It wwould b pretty hard... its went on for years here... not suggesting it but many sprayers here still use it like it wasn't even banned....
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WestGaPineStraw
09-01-2012, 10:48 PM
whats the chances of this happening?

All the time. MSMA is easy to get, using it is the hard part. I do not like it anyways, not a consistant product. Will burn places for no reason.
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kbrashears
09-01-2012, 10:57 PM
All the time. MSMA is easy to get, using it is the hard part. I do not like it anyways, not a consistant product. Will burn places for no reason.
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Oh, there is a reason.

ted putnam
09-01-2012, 11:35 PM
All the time. MSMA is easy to get, using it is the hard part. I do not like it anyways, not a consistant product. Will burn places for no reason.
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It is not easily obtained here anymore. My supplier has a half pallet that I see every time I go in. They could sell it to me...but not without a paper trail. I don't want a fine and they don't want to lose their ability to sell other products, so everyone(They, me and the Arkansas State Plant Board) all have an understanding. They don't offer to sell it to me, and I don't ask them to. If it is that easy for you to get in your state, then the enforcement division of your Ag Dept. is more "Lame" than ours. That's pretty hard to believe.

I've seen MSMA burn areas, but it was never for no reason. I won't go into all the reasons this might have happened in your situation but will instead use an "umbrella" reason and just say it was due to "applicator error" and lack of experience.

I hate to see MSMA go. It is an awesome tool that will be missed by me and many other responsible applicators.

I still have 30 gallons that by what I've read here should be worth a small fortune.:laugh:

cgaengineer
09-01-2012, 11:43 PM
Will burn places for no reason.
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Amateur...I put that stuff out with my permagreen!
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ted putnam
09-02-2012, 01:12 AM
Amateur...I put that stuff out with my permagreen!
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...that's another way to say it. :laugh:

I've applied it with all types of application equipment including a PG when I used to have one. Always excellent results. I just applied some a week ago with my Z-spray. Every time there was ever a problem, it was an oversight on my part.
Many factors have to be taken into consideration when applying MSMA.
Weather,temps,overall condition of lawn and the list goes on.

Finally, you must be familiar and confident with the equipment you are using and have some "finesse" while applying.

Forgiveness for inattention to details was never one of MSMA's traits.

clemsonturf
09-02-2012, 08:45 AM
I thought it was restricted to corn fields.

:laugh::laugh:

goodness...

You people make a mountain of a mole hill here, until you see a big "R" on the front of the jug...I wouldn't be too concerned with it.

Duekster
09-02-2012, 09:11 AM
:laugh::laugh:

goodness...

You people make a mountain of a mole hill here, until you see a big "R" on the front of the jug...I wouldn't be too concerned with it.

I just made a comment. How is that making a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here ya go.

Under the agreement, many uses, including use on residential lawns, will be canceled by the end of this year. For products used on cotton and products phased out after 2009, new use restrictions and mitigation measures will be added to increase protections to water resources. By mid-March, the registrants must submit voluntary cancellation requests for all uses, other than the use of MSMA on cotton. By the end of 2009, many existing uses will be phased out and canceled including use on residential lawns, forestry, non-bearing fruit and nut trees, and citrus orchards. Over the next 4 years, uses on golf courses, sod farms, and highway rights of way will be phased out, promoting transition to alternatives.


http://www.epa.gov/pesp/htmlpublications/feb09_pespwire.html

Turf Dawg
09-02-2012, 09:13 AM
My inspector documented how much old label product I had left.
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cgaengineer
09-02-2012, 09:15 AM
My inspector documented how much old label product I had left.
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So there you have it...glad you made that mountain now ain't ya? ;)
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Turf Dawg
09-02-2012, 09:19 AM
So there you have it...glad you made that mountain now ain't ya? ;)
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Hey man, that aint no step for a stepper. lol
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cgaengineer
09-02-2012, 09:38 AM
Hey man, that aint no step for a stepper. lol
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So ha you just went against the law and purchased off label mama you would be toast...hard to explain cotton field use when all you do is resis! I guess you could grow you a little path of cotton!
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Duekster
09-02-2012, 09:41 AM
Hey man, that aint no step for a stepper. lol
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Seems the TDA is picking up things a notch around here for sure. I had a woman inspector and she sounded like she was way too over loaded with area coverages.

Think Green
09-02-2012, 10:24 AM
In Arkansas you have until your stock runs out. I had 20 gallons left from year before.
We have until 2013 to liquidate it...........and the product is still sold under a new label for golf course, right of way, and certain crop situations. Farmer's don't use it much for the crop as they use it for ditches,etc. I did not want to forget about the turf grower, they can still use it for their production. We as commercial and residential sprayers have to use it wisely in certain situations, however by the end of the year...........it needs to be away from the truck. Period.!!
I don't care if you have the old or new labeled product......it needs to be gone or you can face fines and or license cancellations.

Duekster
09-02-2012, 10:50 AM
In Arkansas you have until your stock runs out. I had 20 gallons left from year before.
We have until 2013 to liquidate it...........and the product is still sold under a new label for golf course, right of way, and certain crop situations. Farmer's don't use it much for the crop as they use it for ditches,etc. I did not want to forget about the turf grower, they can still use it for their production. We as commercial and residential sprayers have to use it wisely in certain situations, however by the end of the year...........it needs to be away from the truck. Period.!!
I don't care if you have the old or new labeled product......it needs to be gone or you can face fines and or license cancellations.

Seems to me that would lead to people over using it, or dumping it.

cgaengineer
09-02-2012, 10:51 AM
Seems to me that would lead to people over using it, or dumping it.

Stupid law...

Can we please get some more laws?
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Turf Dawg
09-02-2012, 11:09 AM
The way I understand it in Texas is that we can use the old label untill it is depleated. I guess I will have to double check. I guess it really depends on what the EPA says it has to be used by
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grassman177
09-02-2012, 03:09 PM
it is dif by state, but here even my inspector cant give me a clear cut answer. told me i can use what i got until it is gone, or until further notice.

i stocked up and got 15 gal each of msma, and trimec plus!!!! been a dream. but, i have begun starting testing of alternatives, and they are for the most part just as good, but not as all inclusive...have to use more dif chems, instead of just one

Ric
09-02-2012, 03:14 PM
Seems to me that would lead to people over using it, or dumping it.

The "USE BY DATE" is so people won't stock pile a product that the EPA feel is no longer safe for our environment. I am still good friends with the former Ag Inspector who is now working for a Chemical Company. He tells a story of finding 50 gallons of Chlordane in a chemical room the Secretary opened up for him on a surprise inspection. I am sure there are barns all over the country with Out Of Date Pesticides in 55 gallon durms.

Those who would stock pile ban pesticides, will still use them after the Use By Date. They just are very careful not to leave a paper trail. If the 50 gallons of Chlordane was re-labeled as a Legal Product in the chemical room My buddy would never of caught them.


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Duekster
09-02-2012, 03:34 PM
The "USE BY DATE" is so people won't stock pile a product that the EPA feel is no longer safe for our environment. I am still good friends with the former Ag Inspector who is now working for a Chemical Company. He tells a story of finding 50 gallons of Chlordane in a chemical room the Secretary opened up for him on a surprise inspection. I am sure there are barns all over the country with Out Of Date Pesticides in 55 gallon durms.

Those who would stock pile ban pesticides, will still use them after the Use By Date. They just are very careful not to leave a paper trail. If the 50 gallons of Chlordane was re-labeled as a Legal Product in the chemical room My buddy would never of caught them.


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I think they can best accomplish that by setting up production limits and sell by dates. Use by dates are foolish.

IE, someone would be more careful about using a product of limited supply and only use it on weeds not controlled by other availble technologies.

Think Green
09-02-2012, 05:47 PM
The "USE BY DATE" is so people won't stock pile a product that the EPA feel is no longer safe for our environment. I am still good friends with the former Ag Inspector who is now working for a Chemical Company. He tells a story of finding 50 gallons of Chlordane in a chemical room the Secretary opened up for him on a surprise inspection. I am sure there are barns all over the country with Out Of Date Pesticides in 55 gallon durms.

Those who would stock pile ban pesticides, will still use them after the Use By Date. They just are very careful not to leave a paper trail. If the 50 gallons of Chlordane was re-labeled as a Legal Product in the chemical room My buddy would never of caught them.


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Ric.........Ironic you mentioned this because a couple seasons ago, I ran across a estate sale in which a retired man for the State Agricultural division had a stockpile of stuff in his shop. The wife had no idea what was in there with lock and key. She tried to sell me 50# of bagged Chlordane, Dursban, Lindane, and a couple others. I was shocked but not too terrified as I contacted the state inspector. Suddenly, by the end of the day, I returned to inquire to her.....she mentioned someone came by and purchased the whole lock-stock-and barrel.
We all don't need to feel under the wind about this type of activity. Considering all other things in this world that is being done illegally, this action is petty.

I am one of these people that wishes the products that we use was taken off the market from the hands of the consumer. But in reality---this will not happen until it becomes banned. Then the consumer will just get it from whomever. It is no different than running alcohol, tobacco, prescription medications,etc.
The more the laws become restricted, the more people will find ways to get it.
This was a general discussion response Ric, and not directed to you. I am posting this to all other members.

I talked to a district manager of Terminex a month ago about Dursban.
He told me that the product was removed under the table. It seemed that the industry needed the product but with others coming on the market, the product took a shot in the groin. All employees that used the product was subject to stringent testing for exposure. All companies that used the product was mandated to have all tested at expensive centers. If the companies chose to continue using the product had to do random tests for exposure and a lot of yearly paperwork and expense was necessary. So, It became a no brainer to discontinue use of Dursban due to yearly fees and employee exposure risks.
Does any of this make sense or was this just baloney???

Ric
09-02-2012, 06:01 PM
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Fact of Life Think Green. Chemical manufactures are only interested in the God All Mighty Dollar and as soon as a product goes Off Patent it gets bad mouthed so a Patented Product can replace it at a Higher selling price for MORE PROFIT.

As for the Stock pile of Chemical Oldies at the Yard Sale. I would have jumped on the Lindane in a NYC second and not felt guilty at all. $ 0.50 of Lindane can save a $ 5,000 Pineapple palm from Palm Bores. There is no good replacement for Lindane, so make it a RUP that only a CPO can apply.

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turfmd101
09-02-2012, 09:51 PM
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Fact of Life Think Green. Chemical manufactures are only interested in the God All Mighty Dollar and as soon as a product goes Off Patent it gets bad mouthed so a Patented Product can replace it at a Higher selling price for MORE PROFIT.

As for the Stock pile of Chemical Oldies at the Yard Sale. I would have jumped on the Lindane in a NYC second and not felt guilty at all. $ 0.50 of Lindane can save a $ 5,000 Pineapple palm from Palm Bores. There is no good replacement for Lindane, so make it a RUP that only a CPO can apply.

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Wow Ric, Lindane, great pick. Sure do miss that OP. Especially when bifenthrin was suggested as a replacement to Lindane. No way!

I believe when Asulox lost its residential turf label. Most users of this product I spoke with mentioned they would keep their empty legal residential labeled containers then purchased Ag labeled product and pour it into the older container. Since there was no time limit on when the old label product had to be used. It made sense to hold on to the old container as long as possible and refill as needed. This activity may have added to more, end dates of product use.
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bug-guy
09-03-2012, 09:19 AM
the problem i see with semi banned products(and my that i mean the product is still out there, maybe a slight name change, but it lost some of it's label usage). Here in town someone sells an aslux product (was used to kill carpetgrass in St. Aug.) the market was not large enought to justify the reregistration of this product for rsidental lawns.
Now lic. operaters have nothing easliy availible to use, but a homeowner can go in and buy it and use, with really no risk... no lic to lose.

Ric
09-03-2012, 12:40 PM
the problem i see with semi banned products(and my that i mean the product is still out there, maybe a slight name change, but it lost some of it's label usage). Here in town someone sells an aslux product (was used to kill carpetgrass in St. Aug.) the market was not large enought to justify the reregistration of this product for rsidental lawns.
Now lic. operaters have nothing easliy availible to use, but a homeowner can go in and buy it and use, with really no risk... no lic to lose.

Asulox was one of those products taken off the Market because Re-registration for Horticulture cost more than the Profit margin. Farmers still buy it by the Train car load, so that 2.5 gallon jug a CPO buys once a year just doesn't pay the toll.

Yes you can go on E bay and Buy repackaged Asulox in smaller than the 2.5 gallon jug the manufacture uses. Not totally Legal of course but the EPA seem to turn a blind eye to this practice. BASF never stopped the sale of Termidor on line either when Termidor was still labeled as a PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY and BASF required a special training certification for a CPO to buy it.

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bug-guy
09-04-2012, 07:50 AM
BASF required a special training certification for a CPO to buy it.

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that only applies to 78 oz or larger

Ric
09-04-2012, 10:41 AM
that only applies to 78 oz or larger

Now it does. But at one time it also applied to the 20 oz size.

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Skipster
09-06-2012, 01:54 AM
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Fact of Life Think Green. Chemical manufactures are only interested in the God All Mighty Dollar and as soon as a product goes Off Patent it gets bad mouthed so a Patented Product can replace it at a Higher selling price for MORE PROFIT.



Remember that the MSMA issue is all about EPA regulations, not registrant P&L. MSMA has been off patent for many years and no registrant has offered anything close to a replacement, so it doesn't help any of the registrants at all to have some of these uses removed from the label.

For those who don't know, herbicide ai patents last for 17 years. However, the patent covers a lot of developmental time before the EPA registration and even the first sales. So, while the average herbicide takes about 12 years and $150 MM to get to market, it's usually only covered by patent for 5 to 8 years during sales.

As some commonly used and very effective products come up for re-registration by EPA over the next few years, I fully expect to see their prices rise and at least one off patent product to halt production. EPA demands the re-registration dossier only from the registrant, not all packagers. Because the dossier can cost upwards of $150 MM to compile and packagers aren't willing to foot some of the bill for re-registration, I predict that at least one commonly used, cheap, and effective product will not be re-registered in the next 3 years.

Ric
09-06-2012, 09:57 AM
Remember that the MSMA issue is all about EPA regulations, not registrant P&L. MSMA has been off patent for many years and no registrant has offered anything close to a replacement, so it doesn't help any of the registrants at all to have some of these uses removed from the label.

For those who don't know, herbicide ai patents last for 17 years. However, the patent covers a lot of developmental time before the EPA registration and even the first sales. So, while the average herbicide takes about 12 years and $150 MM to get to market, it's usually only covered by patent for 5 to 8 years during sales.

As some commonly used and very effective products come up for re-registration by EPA over the next few years, I fully expect to see their prices rise and at least one off patent product to halt production. EPA demands the re-registration dossier only from the registrant, not all packagers. Because the dossier can cost upwards of $150 MM to compile and packagers aren't willing to foot some of the bill for re-registration, I predict that at least one commonly used, cheap, and effective product will not be re-registered in the next 3 years.

Read my above Post about "Asulox" That was purely a case of EPA re-registration cost knocking it out of the ball game.

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