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View Full Version : Geogrid Under Pavers?


JimLewis
09-11-2012, 03:35 PM
Ok. So we've been installing woven geotextile fabric underneath the layer of compacted aggregate gravel for years now. Stuff like this;

http://www.lewislandscape.com/images/Woven%20Geotextile%20Fabric.jpg

From what I understand, that is common - to install this above the soil and below the compacted gravel, especially when you have heavy clay soil like we do.

But I was recently reading on the Pavestone website and they recommend installing an actual geogrid above the gravel and right below the pavers, as in this photo:

http://www.lewislandscape.com/images/SnapEdge.jpg

Do any of you do this in addition to the geotextile fabric underlayment that is down below? Instead of? Should we be adding this to our paver installations?



.

Red Shed Landscaping
09-11-2012, 04:37 PM
I haven't used it or seen it used under pavers but as in the picture I could see this under permeable pavers to help from shifting with the clean gravel underneath. I don't know how much it would help under normal pavers. That is something I had never thought of.

JimLewis
09-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Yah, maybe you're right. I guess I didn't look at the photo real carefully. Those are permeable pavers. And there is no screeding sand either. So maybe you'd do it this way if you were installing permeable pavers or something. I don't really get into permeable hardly ever.

GreenI.A.
09-11-2012, 06:00 PM
i was just recently watching a company do simular for walkways on a large park site at a college campus. They are laying probably 15k sq ft. From what I have noticed during the different stages it looks like they did a geotect on the compcted soil then there base like most of us do. But then they did the geotect and permuable pavers

TomG
09-11-2012, 06:34 PM
What that picture shows is definitely an edging "system" from I believe, but don't quote me, Snap Edge. The grid is actually attached to the edging and is used for permeable paver applications. The grid goes just under the pavers, and the weight of the pavers holds the edging in. I believe the grid extends something like 3ft under the pavers. This is used because it is not possible to spike normal edging into the large clean stone used with permeable pavers and have it hold.

I have not personally used this edging with our permeable paver jobs but I have seen it may times from manufactures wanting us to use it. The biggest problem in my opinion with this edging is that it has to be laid out before the pavers are placed so you need to lay it out literally perfectly.

TomG
09-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Yup its Snap Edge, just found it. http://www.snapedge.ca/products/edging/permedge/

DVS Hardscaper
09-11-2012, 09:04 PM
What that picture shows is definitely an edging "system" from I believe, but don't quote me, Snap Edge. The grid is actually attached to the edging and is used for permeable paver applications. The grid goes just under the pavers, and the weight of the pavers holds the edging in. I believe the grid extends something like 3ft under the pavers. This is used because it is not possible to spike normal edging into the large clean stone used with permeable pavers and have it hold.

I have not personally used this edging with our permeable paver jobs but I have seen it may times from manufactures wanting us to use it. The biggest problem in my opinion with this edging is that it has to be laid out before the pavers are placed so you need to lay it out literally perfectly.

With all due respect, there are some presumptions in this comment quoted above.

We only use snap edge, and have used it for 16 years.

It's a great restraint. And it doubles as a tool, it's great for using to mark the field for cutting radiuses.

You do not need to install pavers before the SnapEdge is installed! That is 100% false. We never install the retraint first, for cryin out loud! SnapEdge will conform to however good the radiuses are cut.

It's the best restraint out there. And the sun does not effect it.
Posted via Mobile Device

TomG
09-11-2012, 09:23 PM
With all due respect, there are some presumptions in this comment quoted above.

We only use snap edge, and have used it for 16 years.

It's a great restraint. And it doubles as a tool, it's great for using to mark the field for cutting radiuses.

You do not need to install pavers before the SnapEdge is installed! That is 100% false. We never install the retraint first, for cryin out loud! SnapEdge will conform to however good the radiuses are cut.

It's the best restraint out there. And the sun does not effect it.
Posted via Mobile Device

Maybe you should re-read my post... Or you have never used or seen this particular edging we are talking about. I too use regular Snap Edge for normal paver installation.

So you say you don't need to install this particular edging before the pavers? How you get the grid (thats attached to the edging) under the pavers after they are laid?

big daddy b
09-11-2012, 09:31 PM
With all due respect, there are some presumptions in this comment quoted above.

We only use snap edge, and have used it for 16 years.

It's a great restraint. And it doubles as a tool, it's great for using to mark the field for cutting radiuses.

You do not need to install pavers before the SnapEdge is installed! That is 100% false. We never install the retraint first, for cryin out loud! SnapEdge will conform to however good the radiuses are cut.

It's the best restraint out there. And the sun does not effect it.
Posted via Mobile Device



Tom is talking about the Perm Edge, made by Snap Edge.:dizzy:
Which he is correct, with the Perm Edge you cannot use it to mark the radiuses.
That Perm Edge is really pain in the ass to use. It is really flimsy, and yes you have to layout the perimeter perfectly and plan your cuts perfectly.

DVS Hardscaper
09-11-2012, 09:36 PM
...............So you say you don't need to install this particular edging before the pavers? How you get the grid (thats attached to the edging) under the pavers after they are laid?

- You lay the grid (which I'm not sold on).

- Install Pavers

- Mark your pavers with a pencil for saw cutting using Snap Edge to trace the line.

- Cut pavers with table saw (this way to not disturb the grid)

- Install Snap Edge

- Backfill edge of pavement with soil, mulch, etc.

- Collect check

- Deposit check

- And hope it's enough to cover the payment on the $45k pick up truck with the cool sounding diesel engine...........


.

TomG
09-11-2012, 09:40 PM
- You lay the grid (which I'm not sold on).

- Install Pavers

- Mark your pavers with a pencil for saw cutting

- Cut pavers with table saw (this way to do not disturb the grid)

- Install Snap Edge

- BAckfill edge of pavement with soil, mulch, etc.

- Collect check

- Deposit check

- And hope it's enough to cover the payment on the $45k pick up truck with the cool sounding diesel engine...........


.

LOL. You clearly have never used this edging and have no CLUE what your talking about! :hammerhead::hammerhead:

Tell me hardscaping god of LawnSite... how do you attach the edging to the grid??

DVS Hardscaper
09-11-2012, 10:09 PM
LOL. You clearly have never used this edging and have no CLUE what your talking about! :hammerhead::hammerhead:

Tell me hardscaping god of LawnSite... how do you attach the edging to the grid??



We most certainly have used the permeable restraint at hand. And the grid. Isn't that what this topic is about? We work with a certain county gov't that will pay their residents a small percentage for installing permeable pavements. Two small driveways.

The materials worked well for us! Hispanics make everything work. I wasnt lookn to start a pissing match. Hence "with all due respect".



.

TomG
09-11-2012, 10:16 PM
We most certainly have used the permeable restraint at hand. And the grid. Isn't that what this topic is about? We work with a certain county gov't that will pay their residents a small percentage for installing permeable pavements. Two small driveways.

The materials worked well for us! Hispanics make everything work. I wasnt lookn to start a pissing match. Hence "with all due respect".



.

Ok, thats great, because I have never actually used this restraint. I have just seen it in demos and from salesmen and seen other contractors use it. So with all due respect you didn't answer my question. How do you attach the edging to the grid?

AztlanLC
09-11-2012, 10:20 PM
subscribed I would also like to know :)

all ferris
09-11-2012, 10:31 PM
Ok, thats great, because I have never actually used this restraint. I have just seen it in demos and from salesmen and seen other contractors use it. So with all due respect you didn't answer my question. How do you attach the edging to the grid?

I want to hear the answer too....DVS, are you sure you don't just cut grass?:laugh:

headz77
09-11-2012, 10:37 PM
http://sek.us.com/pdfs/news/product_eblast_permedge.pdf

More detail here on the product.
Posted via Mobile Device

TomG
09-12-2012, 05:47 AM
http://sek.us.com/pdfs/news/product_eblast_permedge.pdf

More detail here on the product.
Posted via Mobile Device

Nice! I’m glad someone else took the time to look up some FACTS on this edge restraint. I was saving that link for later… but since you posted it…
It’s interesting how it says and I quote:

“PermEdge comes with four feet of geogrid ultrasonically welded to the inside and outside of the Snap Edge paver edge restraint to prevent rolling or twisting.”

DVD, still waiting to hear how you attach the edging to the grid???? Do you carry around an ultrasonic welder with you in your job trailer?:confused:

Folks, please do some research/fact checking on some of the information people (including me, I have been wrong before) post on this forum. Especially when it’s in regards to running your business or using products etc… (stuff that could cost you money) There is a ton of great information here and there is a ton of people on here with vast knowledge of hardscaping, however there are also people who don’t really know what they are talking about some of the time. Do your own research and combine it with what people say on the forum and you will most likely get a good solid answer.

AztlanLC
09-12-2012, 05:57 PM
DVD, still waiting to hear how you attach the edging to the grid???? Do you carry around an ultrasonic welder with you in your job trailer?:confused:


DVD? :laugh::laugh: no wonder he hasn't reply

xtreem3d
09-12-2012, 07:33 PM
Unless i am just not seeing the pic clearly, we don't use what Jim has pictured under any kind of stone or block we lay on the ground. It looks like filter fabric that we buy. My apologies if it's not filter fabric. We use something like this http://www.concretesolutionsonline.com/mirafi_fabric.htm Mirafi 500X,
Steve

jbailey52
09-12-2012, 07:59 PM
Unless i am just not seeing the pic clearly, we don't use what Jim has pictured under any kind of stone or block we lay on the ground. It looks like filter fabric that we buy. My apologies if it's not filter fabric. We use something like this http://www.concretesolutionsonline.com/mirafi_fabric.htm Mirafi 500X,
Steve

I thought the same thing. However seeing how this thread has turned into a head hunt, I declined to spew my opinion.

xtreem3d
09-12-2012, 08:04 PM
I'm ducking under my desk as I type :laugh:

Gilmore.Landscaping
09-12-2012, 08:18 PM
Unless i am just not seeing the pic clearly, we don't use what Jim has pictured under any kind of stone or block we lay on the ground. It looks like filter fabric that we buy. My apologies if it's not filter fabric. We use something like this http://www.concretesolutionsonline.com/mirafi_fabric.htm Mirafi 500X,
Steve

Yes you are correct about the pic, it might just be the pic but the material for under pavers for support is more of an plastic material not cloth.

TomG
09-12-2012, 08:45 PM
DVD? :laugh::laugh: no wonder he hasn't reply

Yea, I call him that on purpose. I wont explain, no need to veer this thread off topic.

I apologize to every one commenting on this thread, I just really want people to get the correct information, weather it be on this topic or any other posted on this forum.

Also I hereby demote DVS's self proclaimed "god of hardscaping" status of LawnSite to "lawn jockey" for what has transpired here.:)*trucewhiteflag*

all ferris
09-12-2012, 09:37 PM
What don't some of the people here understand? If you look in the original pic posted by Lewis you can clearly see that there are no spikes installed in the snap edge. The product is designed to be used without spikes. The "grid" is already attached to the snap edge when you get it. The weight of the pavers on the grid keeps the snap edge in place. YOU MUST INSTALL THIS PRODUCT BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE PAVERS. There is no other way to do it.

AztlanLC
09-13-2012, 09:49 AM
of course there is another way to do it DVD almighty just haven't got time to explain it :)

There is another product made by permaloc that you can attach the grid after installing the pavers which I think is a better solution, the reason they started developing this form of installation is due to the fact that permeable pavers are installed on free draining stone which is very loose material, spikes don't stay in place very well in this type o base.
http://www.permaloc.com/applications/permeable.html

Gilmore.Landscaping
09-13-2012, 09:35 PM
of course there is another way to do it DVD almighty just haven't got time to explain it :)

There is another product made by permaloc that you can attach the grid after installing the pavers which I think is a better solution, the reason they started developing this form of installation is due to the fact that permeable pavers are installed on free draining stone which is very loose material, spikes don't stay in place very well in this type o base.
http://www.permaloc.com/applications/permeable.html

As much as this may appear like a solution to attaching the edge restraint after it is not!

In their example they have the type 8 aggregate (loose material) up against the edge restraint, the only way to successfully do that is to screed after the edger is in. If you screed first and the try and scrape it away like you typically do with sand it would just cave in causing your outside course of pavers to settle funny.

edit. there are their instructions, install edger...then screed!
http://www.permaloc.com/installation/geoedgeperminstall.html

AztlanLC
09-13-2012, 10:47 PM
Some of the stone will migrate out but not enough to make the pavers cave in, and after compaction all will be just fine maybe one or two pavers here and there will need to be fixed but nothing major, I know this because we do it all the time and specially if you use the right type of stone.

vtscaper
09-19-2012, 08:36 PM
Where is the "Like" button?!!!

jmacd
09-23-2012, 12:50 PM
The fabric show is non-woven fabric, or filter fabric.

DVS Hardscaper
09-23-2012, 02:07 PM
of course there is another way to do it DVD almighty just haven't got time to explain it :)



You sure got that right buddy! Those here that have kids know this all to well.

We're busier than ever before in all my 22 yrs in business. And we pull out fri nights racing in 4 states and return Sunday nights.

As you said "explain". There is a profound difference between explaining verses proving.

I, over the years, on my own free will have offered more advice, experience and knowledge than anyone participating in this thread, via online posts and threads, private messaging, e-mail, as well as via telephone. I'm quick to recognize a conversation turning tick for tac, and my posting history here shows that I have plenty to share but I draw the line when it comes to proving myself to others.

I was having a conversation with a customer about a month ago. She said "women become more reasonable with age, and men learn when an where to draw the line as they age". I never thought about that before but I believe she was 100% correct.

Winter is on the horizon, perhaps I'll
Have time one day to not only clean out my truck but hopefully chime in and help if I see this topic.
Posted via Mobile Device

JimLewis
09-24-2012, 12:30 PM
Makes perfect sense. DVS is more successful and busier than the rest of us and also doesn't believe he should ever have to prove himself. That's why he doesn't answer up and defend himself when he gets challenged. Gotcha.

Thanks for at least taking a few minutes out of your crazy busy life to explain that to us, though. We're honored by your presence, even if we only get it in bits and pieces.


:rolleyes:

TomG
09-24-2012, 09:40 PM
You sure got that right buddy! Those here that have kids know this all to well.

We're busier than ever before in all my 22 yrs in business. And we pull out fri nights racing in 4 states and return Sunday nights.

As you said "explain". There is a profound difference between explaining verses proving.

I, over the years, on my own free will have offered more advice, experience and knowledge than anyone participating in this thread, via online posts and threads, private messaging, e-mail, as well as via telephone. I'm quick to recognize a conversation turning tick for tac, and my posting history here shows that I have plenty to share but I draw the line when it comes to proving myself to others.

I was having a conversation with a customer about a month ago. She said "women become more reasonable with age, and men learn when an where to draw the line as they age". I never thought about that before but I believe she was 100% correct.

Winter is on the horizon, perhaps I'll
Have time one day to not only clean out my truck but hopefully chime in and help if I see this topic.
Posted via Mobile Device

Probably would have taken you less time to just explain and prove your way than to type all that...

And it doesn't matter how much so called "advice, experience and knowledge" you put on here if its not correct. Especially if you cant admit when your blatantly wrong.

jbailey52
09-26-2012, 07:45 PM
Midol all around

AztlanLC
09-27-2012, 12:18 AM
Well for a person with not much free time he sure manages to post many times a day but has no time for this tread well even if he post on it I will miss it because as soon as I see dvd I will skip that post, wait wasn't there an option to block lawnsite user period, let me look into

AztlanLC
09-27-2012, 12:25 AM
It is if you go on their profile there is an option to put that person on ignore list great.
Right under user list