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steveparrott
09-20-2012, 06:50 PM
Working with my calculator, I came up with the following question. The answer surprised me.

Knowing that lighter gauge wire results in greater energy loss (cost), I wondered what makes more sense to the consumer - paying more for heavier gauge wire (but less for energy) or paying less for lighter gauge wire (but more for energy).

Let's consider a 250 ft. wire run of (12) 7W LED fixtures (1 every 20 ft.). Calculate the annual energy cost first with #14/2 then with #12/2.

Then compare that with the difference in purchase price of the two wire types (about $64 difference - retail).

How long before the homeowner breaks even on the additional expense of the heavier gauge wire.

Any guesses?

larryinalabama
09-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Im no enigneer but your 84w which is the less than a old fashion light bulb, probable wont make any difference.

steveparrott
09-20-2012, 07:21 PM
Im no enigneer but your 84w which is the less than a old fashion light bulb, probable wont make any difference.

OK, so let's say you have (10) wire runs of this same load and length - 840W total.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-20-2012, 09:53 PM
I dont have a direct answer for you Steve but can say that using 14/2 low voltage lighting cable is not really a viable option as it is a relatively rare commodity whereas 12/2 is ubiquitous. I have not checked in some time, but I do recall a few years ago that my cost for 14/2 LVLC was actually higher than what I was paying for 12/2. (having everything to do with volume sold/manufactured and inventory/stocking levels) This might change over time as the market shifts, but for now 12/2 is the only way to go from a cost perspective.

Richie@
09-21-2012, 07:20 AM
I mainly will use 10-2 for home runs to In ground hubs , hardly ever use 12-2 or 14-2.

steveparrott
09-21-2012, 09:43 AM
For the 12-fixture system, the answer is that by using #14/2 instead of #12/2you save $64 in material and pay about $1 per year more for energy.

Breakeven time on investment for using #12/2 instead of #10/2 is over 60 years.

emby
09-22-2012, 11:40 PM
Why is it important that a consumer needs to know all of this? Is this forum about lighting professionals or a sales forum?
Lets get on with talking about whats important such as designing with light and being artistic and passionate about that, not conversating about 64 bucks worth of wire or awards in fence lighting. This is about architectural & landscape lighting not a sales website.
For goodness sake. Really??

indylights
09-23-2012, 01:30 PM
Ken,

I agree with you for the most part. But when you think about how much conversation on here really is about guys promoting themselves or products they are associated with, it's quite a bit. I'm not mentioning any names past or present, but this forum is equally now about promoting one's work or product as is it about the things you mention. I'm don't know if that's good, bad, or indifferent, but it's the way it is. Just my two cents

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

emby
09-23-2012, 04:51 PM
Thanks Scott,
It's a real shame to be honest. You know when I first wanted to start learning about landscape lighting I did a search and found this forum and a few others but this contained the most valuable information in my opinion. I started reading the oldest threads and learned so much that my passion just grew.
After trying a few things around my own property and wanted to learn more I decided to contact somebody that i hoped would share his experiences and thoughts. That person was James and he really helped a lot through the telephone conversations and some of his postings on this forum. Of course there are many others that have shared their experiences and I thank all of them. I learned of the AOLP and Jan's landscape lighting Institute from this website in which I am part of now and am loving it. The benefits have been fruitful.

Through reading, completing courses and many discussions within these threads I discovered that landscape lighting is another layer of artistic creativity to clients properties. I have learned that the light source is what is important to achieve that artistic creative layer and it's importance in protecting that light source from the outside elements. Installation techniques and tricks of the trade are equally important.

I hope that this forum can revert back to those positive sharing discussions but for now because of all the influences from the many "LOOK AT ME" people I am deciding to not contribute on this forum. Probably happy for some but anytime anybody would like to discuss landscape lighting (my passions) please feel free to call or email me as I would be more than happy to help any way I can.

I encourage all new people to read the oldest threads on this forum and try to disregard the sales pitching that has taken over in the last few months.

Thank you

steveparrott
09-24-2012, 09:56 AM
Surprised to hear objections to this thread - no sales pitch here - just an attempt to stimulate some thinking about how pros can make decisions on wire gauge for their projects - keeping in mind the desire to save energy and the desire to lower costs for thier clients.

In my view, it is critical for pros to fully understand the electrical calculations of voltage loss and energy consumption - these calculations are different for LED's - and getting this right is essential for today's priorities - energy and cost savings.

I view this forum as addressing the art, business, and technology of architectural and landscape lighting. As pros, we need to be experts in all three, and this forum is a great venue for that.

starry night
09-24-2012, 10:01 AM
Ken, I would hope maybe you would reconsider your decision to no longer contribute to the forum. You could be selective, couldn't you, and chime in when you could assist on a subject.

I agree with what you said about the forum changing. When I first started here I read 90% of the threads starting at the very beginning. (Those early threads and "characters" on here were surely entertaining!) As the forum matured it did offer a wealth of helpful information from the designer/contractors here. But now? I wonder what others think.

emby
09-24-2012, 02:53 PM
Thanks Phil.
Steve,
I just placed this in this thread because it was easy as I was not on my computer so sorry as I should have just started a new thread.

I would like to show everybody what this particular forum was intended for which is the very first thread at the top of this forum:


Dear Do-it-Yourselfer,

Thanks for visiting this professional Landscape Lighting Forum. Before you post a message, please understand that this forum is meant primarily for professional lighting installers, designers and specifiers. These professionals are dedicated to bettering themselves in their businesses and bettering the Professional Landscape Lighting Industry as a whole.

There is a world of difference between the products and methods available through your local hardware store and those used by professionals. In addition, lighting design is a fine art akin to fine art painting. Most of the professionals in this forum have undergone extensive training and honed their craft with years of experience.

While we understand and respect your well-intentioned wish to get pointers and guidance from these professionals, don't be surprised if the responses fall short of your expectations. Most of the forum members would much rather you employ their skills and talent to light your home rather than spend their valuable time to explain how you can do it yourself with the limited products and resources at your disposal.

Again, we do respect your desire to do it yourself and simply ask that you respect our desire to further the art of Landscape Lighting as done by the community of Lighting Professionals.
[Reply]

Since professionals, contractors and designers are here sharing we already know how to calculate loads , save our clients energy and conduct our businesses with professionalism.

My comments have been directed to everyone and only to remind all of how important design, artistic and creativity are. Lately we all have been directing are attention to teaching non professionals and discussing about what's not important.
Anyways take care all and hopefully things will turn around for the best and not just LOOK AT ME!!
Posted via Mobile Device

steveparrott
09-24-2012, 04:23 PM
Since professionals, contractors and designers are here sharing we already know how to calculate loads , save our clients energy and conduct our businesses with professionalism.

I (as always) respect your opinion, but I think you're making a big assumption here. How many of our pros understand the LED's they're installing? How do you calculate power consumption on an LED system? What is power factor? How do you calculate voltage loss? What are the differences in voltage loss between daisy chains, T-methods, combination methods? What are likely failure scenarios for LEDs? What are the concerns with EMI, how are they addressed? I challenge anyone to find sources with these answers? I think this forum is a great place to discuss these and other lighting technology issues.

As for conducting business with professionalism, many do and others are still learning. The forum is a great place for pros to share how they run their businesses - sharing tips on marketing and sales techniques. (At least as much as they can share publicly.)


My comments have been directed to everyone and only to remind all of how important design, artistic and creativity are. Lately we all have been directing are attention to teaching non professionals and discussing about what's not important.
Anyways take care all and hopefully things will turn around for the best and not just LOOK AT ME!!

I 100% agree that design is a great topic for discussion. Let's do it more! I think part of the challenge with discussing design in a forum is that it's hard for most pros to talk about design principals and concepts - easier to show photos of their projects as examples of their design skills in action. We do see a lot of posts like that.

Regarding objections to promotional posts - I understand that and admit that I sometimes (out of enthusiasm for my company) put in promotional posts. It's hard not to, but I will be more conscious of that in the future.

Thanks Phil, I do respect your opinions and your desire to make this forum a better place for pros. Let's all work together to make that happen!

Posted via Mobile Device [/QUOTE]

S&MLL
09-25-2012, 02:35 AM
Steve you have always contributed to this forum. It takes alot of time to sift through this forum when most posts are pretty much useless. I respect the fact that you care about lighting so much (Castlighting & And not the industry). But when posts get deleted on a daily basis it just makes me not want to even look here. Yes its been going on for years but the past few months the lighting forum has becomes so sponserfied its now become useless. (btw if this post gets deleted I will also leave lawnsite for good) Its nothing directly against you or Cast or any specific manufacturer its just been a major shift in the industry and a lot of guys are pretty mad about it. And its pretty clear Cast's name has been thrown in that conversation numerous times. You can say selling at 20percent off your website does not effect us. You can say sales have been minimal. You can say the only people who have complained have been 15 people on lawnsite. But what it comes down to imho is you guys have just let us all down. You didn't need to do that. You wanted to drum up sales and you decided to. By doing that a lot of us feel you are just ruining this industry. (I also don't agree with the whole times change us lighting guys have to change too)


Since I joined a few years ago I have seen some of the best in the industry leave this forum. I use to find it great logging on and seeing posts from major players in this lighting game. Well they are gone. And over that time paid sponsors contributing on this forum has gone up. What does that tell you. Why cant you guys just pay to sponsor. Your banner will be up top and all is well. There is a cast lighting forum on here as well. Steve I would find it great if you posted under here not as a sponsor and just as yourself.

This forum has just become a breeding ground for diy time wasters. As much as I have loved reading over the years and contributing on here I find little reason to do anything but look at posts prior to 2011.


Btw steve what does emi have anything to do with voltage drop on a loop method vs daisy chain. We are all aware CASTS AWARD WINNING LED PRODUCTS DONT PRODUCE EMI IN THE RANGE OF GARAGE DOOR OPENERS (sales pitch for yah bud)

emby
09-25-2012, 06:00 AM
I (as always) respect your opinion, but I think you're making a big assumption here. How many of our pros understand the LED's they're installing? How do you calculate power consumption on an LED system? What is power factor? How do you calculate voltage loss? What are the differences in voltage loss between daisy chains, T-methods, combination methods? What are likely failure scenarios for LEDs? What are the concerns with EMI, how are they addressed?

Really Steve? I'm sure you just insulted a few people's intelligence with that. I am not trying to be disrespectful but your not the only one in the world that knows all of that. Anyone can learn just as you have. The audience in this forum may be a bit different than what you have perceived.


I challenge anyone to find sources with these answers? I think this forum is a great place to discuss these and other lighting technology issues.

As an electrician I can certainly tell you that there are plenty of other resources on the internet that discuss these very questions you have stated. From interior applications to commercial this is nothing new. The architectural and landscape lighting forum on lawnsite is not the only place.



Regarding objections to promotional posts - I understand that and admit that I sometimes (out of enthusiasm for my company) put in promotional posts. It's hard not to, but I will be more conscious of that in the future.

I agree and CAST (you) have your own blog right here on lawnsite to post all of these wonderful discussions. Why here. LOOK AT ME.....what a shame.

indylights
09-25-2012, 07:11 AM
Everybody talks about the good old days on here. Do you guys remember when every thread, and I mean every thread, had multiple posts from Joey at Unique, not just talking about the topic, but had links to or descriptions of the Unique product he thought was the greatest in the world for that application. They had a Unique forum too, but he interjected into every post and constantly started new threads touting a new product or release. There was also a certain contractor who was the biggest Nightscaping spokesman, whether it was paid or unpaid, I have ever seen on this board or any other. Again, that was interjected into almost every thread. So it's not like this just started. Illumicare and Brilliance post as much promotional stuff on here as well. I'm not saying I like it, but don't act like it just started, because it's been going on a long time.

steveparrott
09-25-2012, 09:41 AM
Ok, everyone. I accept your criticism. Here's what I'll do.

From now on, I will not post any promotional items about my company in this forum.

And, I will try not to be such a "know-it-all". A personal flaw, I admit.

I will continue to follow the threads and post my thoughts from time to time.

As for the direction of the forum, let's keep in mind that this is a public forum and has a life of its own. I've been with the forum for over 7 years and have seen it go through good times and bad.

Maybe someone would like to start a new thread (this one's gone way off-topic) on the subject on "The direction of the forum".

S&MLL
09-26-2012, 02:49 PM
Steve a Direct copy and past from your blog June 23rd 2010


Mistakes Some Homeowners Make:
They hire professionals who make the above mistakes.
They fail to recognize how a professionally designed lighting system beautifies their property, makes it safer, more secure, and enables them to enjoy their nighttime activities.
They underestimate the skill, experience, and artistry required to produce an exceptional lighting design. They spend way too much time in Home Depot browsing through the outdoor lighting section.
When evaluating bids for landscape lighting, they focus too much on price, and not enough on other values like training, experience, product quality and professionalism.
They are offended when the landscape lighting professional refuses to budge on price.
After they get bids on projects, they rush to the Internet to look for product prices to see if they are getting ripped off. They donít know that the best lighting brands (like CAST Lighting) canít be purchased through the Internet.
They try to do it themselves.



Funny how in 2 years you are saying Cast lighting is not a "best" lighting brand. (because you said 2 years earlier the best lighting brands cant be purchased via internet.

steveparrott
09-26-2012, 04:25 PM
Please let it rest - I've explained many times how we've adjusted our policies to align with the Internet revolution. And, how we've done so in ways that ensure contractors and distributors can still make a good profit using our products.

If you still don't understand, then give me a call and I can explain further.

Thanks.