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jrmyj
09-24-2012, 11:02 PM
I recently installed a patio around a pool. The pool company put the pool a foot away from a customer built wall against my recommendations that it would fail. When I finished I noticed that the pool wall on the customer built wall was stretched out almost a foot. I call the customer and told him he need to call the pool company asap and this was a big deal. The pool guys never showed. The pool liner stretched so far that it developed a hole and was leaking water behind the customer built wall with dirt backfill. We got a 4 inch rain 2 days later and the customer called me up saying that the patio was sinking everywhere. When I got there the eveidence showed the pool moved and was sliding down hill. The Pool company said that it was because of my compaction but admitted to the pool moving. I have been fighting with them to cover it and they think I should cover it. The customer is on my side and refuses to see me brought into this with being on me and I feel bad for the customer because he was told bad information by a sales guy thats never built anything. The sales guy even asked me if I would put concrete in the backside of the customer built wall to reinforce his pool. He was upset with me when I said no because I felt the wall was unstable and I was not going to be any part of it. The customer had a structual engineer come out and write a report saying the pool moved causing my Patio to fail but they still wont own up to it. I have a meeting with the pool company tomorrow but he wouldnt tell me over the phone if they were going to cover it. He even went as far as telling the customer they didnt believe the engineers report. The customer said they didn't believe me either when I said the wall would fail and the guy shut up. I have 3 foot of base compacted every two inches. Has anyone else had this problem and is there any advice for me. Thanks257368

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jrmyj
09-24-2012, 11:11 PM
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knox gsl
09-24-2012, 11:14 PM
What kind of pool is that? And I would want no part of that mess.

jrmyj
09-24-2012, 11:22 PM
Its a fox pool. Hindsight I should have walked away from it but was blinded by the design aspect because it was so unique. The sad part is how many times I told the customer it was going to fail and yet I still did it. I thought it would slowly fail but not two days after completion.

KrayzKajun
09-24-2012, 11:48 PM
Hope customer has a good lawyer. I can see this getting nasty.
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jrmyj
09-24-2012, 11:53 PM
he was smart and retained one right away when they wouldn't respond to him after it moved. They agreed to fix everything except my portion. But they are trying to do a cheap fix and now the customer sees it. I told him they are just trying to shut him up until next year when it fails again then they can say the warranty is up. Customer is being way to nice about it and is trying to see the best in everyone but I see a pool company trying to pass the buck and could care less about the customer.

alldayrj
09-25-2012, 01:15 AM
But think of all the money he saved doing that wall himself lol
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DVS Hardscaper
09-25-2012, 06:35 AM
The pics are as good quality as your paragraph structure. All that crammed into one paragraph bored by attention span.

I'm looking on a smartphone, all I see is settled paver base. Looks like poor compactin on my screen.
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zak406
09-25-2012, 04:34 PM
I dont want to play devils advocate. However the pool company installed the pool on a base the customer built (the wall). There for how is it the pool companies fault, also how is it your fault? The wall appears to be what caused the pool to move and shift. ALthough I agree the pool company should have never built on it, there not the ones who installed hte wall.

C Jovingo Landscaping
09-25-2012, 04:55 PM
The pics are as good quality as your paragraph structure. All that crammed into one paragraph bored by attention span.

I'm looking on a smartphone, all I see is settled paver base. Looks like poor compactin on my screen.
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DVS, the wall built by homeowner is on opposite side of pool as pavers. The pool is pushing the wall & pulling away from pavers. In the 1 pic of with side of pool & pavers not in pic....you can see the rim of the pool takes a dive toward the homeowner built wall. This is what I think I'm seeing.

Also on original post, there are 2 attatchments after last pic. The 1st attatchment is the wall being pushed over!
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zak406
09-25-2012, 05:02 PM
DVS, the wall built by homeowner is on opposite side of pool as pavers. The pool is pushing the wall & pulling away from pavers. In the 1 pic of with side of pool & pavers not in pic....you can see the rim of the pool takes a dive toward the homeowner built wall. This is what I think I'm seeing.

Also on original post, there are 2 attatchments after last pic. The 1st attatchment is the wall being pushed over!
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Thats the point I was trying to make. The pool company should have never built ontop of that wall. However, the pavers and the pool FAILED because of the home owners wall. I would guess (im no lawyer and fortunally never have been in this position) that it makes the homeowner liable to both the pool and pavers?

zedosix
09-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Everyone from homeowner to pool installer to hardscape contractor are at fault. Homeowner because he didn't do his due dilegence and get some sound advice before going ahead, pool installer for installing what almost looks like an inground pool , above ground. Lastly contractor (you) for taking on a job that even you knew was going to fail. Nasty all around.

DVS Hardscaper
09-25-2012, 05:17 PM
The pool builder should never have agreed to build a structure on/in an area not suitable. The assumed liability by agreeing to place the structure there. Like I say in many of my posts at this site, you can not always do what the customer wants.

On the other hand, how do we know that the patio builder didn't cause a pipe to rupture? how Dow we know the patio contractor didn't cause a tear in the liner? A torn liner or a broken pipe will leak water and the hydrostatic pressure could cause such a disturbance.

And....the patio guy should have never agreed to build a patio in conjunction with a sub-par retaining wall.

You gotta know what you're looking at when you go look at jobs and draft contracts. If there are unsuitable conditions that play into the integrity of your work - you need to write a clause in your contract indemnifying you of liability and responsibility resulting from the identified existing conditions. I do it all the time, and the jobs never sell, and that's perfectly fine with me. lord, I could go on and on and on with stories.

This will probably go to court. There will be expert witnesses. I was an expert witness for patio litigation. There will probably be 2 days of testimony. The pool builders attorney will try to find dirt on the patio guy. If your states requires contractor licensing,
And if you're not licensed, you can bet the pool builders attorney will NOT let that slip by.

All parties who had a hand of any type in that project will be listed in the suit.
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jbailey52
09-25-2012, 07:57 PM
If only there was a company that removed pools.......

phillie
09-25-2012, 08:56 PM
How'd the meeting go?

jrmyj
09-26-2012, 11:37 AM
Meeting did't go well. Pool company said they didn't beleive the engineers when they said it was the pools fault even though we agreed that whatever the engineer said we would follow. He tried bullying me with metioning that he had lawyers and that it would get ugly in which I stated I have a lawyer too as well as 5 pages of documentions and pictures stating everything that has been said between myself, the customer and the pool company. I asked him if he had an engineer degree or if he was a professional landscaper and if not how can he make a expert opinion of what happen especially when he couldn't identify that installing on that ground was a mistake. I told him I'm walking away and that it was his problem and if they want me to repair it then they need to give me a chaiers check for the full amount before I step foot on the property. He didn't have much to say and said he would get back to me. The original plan was for the pool to be installed 3 feet away from the wall and when I said something to him about my concern he said they were comfortable with building on it so I second guessed myself because they have been installing pools for 30 years. Then when I got there for my part the pool was 14" lower and one foot off the wall. I had to redesign and add steps because of this. I might beleive the compaction if one the pool didnt move and buckle at the same time and two all of the setteling took place over 20 mins and hasn't moved since. I should have never taken the job and will always go with my gut from here on out. I talked to the customer and he is going to sue the pool guys for everything so Im clear of it(so I think). But we will see what happens. Just a nasty deal all around and they don't want to pay for it.

scagrider22
09-26-2012, 04:06 PM
Meeting did't go well. Pool company said they didn't beleive the engineers when they said it was the pools fault even though we agreed that whatever the engineer said we would follow. He tried bullying me with metioning that he had lawyers and that it would get ugly in which I stated I have a lawyer too as well as 5 pages of documentions and pictures stating everything that has been said between myself, the customer and the pool company. I asked him if he had an engineer degree or if he was a professional landscaper and if not how can he make a expert opinion of what happen especially when he couldn't identify that installing on that ground was a mistake. I told him I'm walking away and that it was his problem and if they want me to repair it then they need to give me a chaiers check for the full amount before I step foot on the property. He didn't have much to say and said he would get back to me. The original plan was for the pool to be installed 3 feet away from the wall and when I said something to him about my concern he said they were comfortable with building on it so I second guessed myself because they have been installing pools for 30 years. Then when I got there for my part the pool was 14" lower and one foot off the wall. I had to redesign and add steps because of this. I might beleive the compaction if one the pool didnt move and buckle at the same time and two all of the setteling took place over 20 mins and hasn't moved since. I should have never taken the job and will always go with my gut from here on out. I talked to the customer and he is going to sue the pool guys for everything so Im clear of it(so I think). But we will see what happens. Just a nasty deal all around and they don't want to pay for it.

Sorry about your luck but I would have to say it is the home owners fault more than the pool company because the wall moved causing the pool and patio to move.

DVS Hardscaper
09-26-2012, 05:23 PM
Pool builders are supposed to have soil tests and engineering done before building a pool. Just a retaining wall builders are supposed to have engineering done before building a wall.

I have a buddy who's company builds 8-10 pools a year. And never ever do they price and or build a pool until soil tests and engineering have been executed. Most pool builders will bypass the engineering part.
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jrmyj
09-26-2012, 10:09 PM
My very first question when I first saw the yard was is he pool company getting a soil test or having an engineer check it out. They said they have been doing it for 30 years and know what their doing. Lol. In my quote for building that wall I stated I would have a structural engineer oversee the project but they are just going to rebuild it using the same block. Today they said they won't be doing any work in the yard because I wouldn't compromise with them. In the meeting I told them I don't want anything to do with that wall and told them what they were doing to rebuild it would fail again. In the same email today they said they were seeking other recommendations on building the wall and fixing their pool. So are they stopping because of me or because they don't know how to fix it and need some advice. It drives me nuts because the customer told them that he built the wall and they said no problem. Therefore it's all on them for accepting it. The problem is they had a new sales guy running the show with no building experience and now they are trying to do damage control for his mistake. Trust me I regret ever taking this job but it did look great and unique for 48 hours. I guess now its defiantly a one of a kind. This has been going on for over a month.

knox gsl
09-26-2012, 10:18 PM
Have you been paid?

jrmyj
09-26-2012, 10:24 PM
Have you been paid?

Oh yeah. The day I finished. The owner and I have become pretty good friends throughout this and talk almost everyday. He said he doesn't want me to do any work on the repairs until I get money whether its from him or the pool company. But my guards up because when it comes to money people can act goofy
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DVS Hardscaper
09-27-2012, 08:15 AM
Oh yeah. The day I finished. The owner and I have become pretty good friends throughout this and talk almost everyday. He said he doesn't want me to do any work on the repairs until I get money whether its from him or the pool company. But my guards up because when it comes to money people can act goofy
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The pool company will not be paying you, they will use their own contractor before they pay you.
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RussellB
09-27-2012, 08:22 AM
The pool company will not be paying you, they will use their own contractor before they pay you.
Posted via Mobile Device The homeowner would have to agree to that and most likely they won't. I wouldn't let that company back on my property.

jrmyj
09-27-2012, 08:45 AM
The owner won't allow any other company to do it but at the same time the pool company is fighting me enough that I told them if I don't get money in hand find another company to do it. I told the customer to have them pull the pool out and give up on the idea because he will have to deal with them forever because no one else will work on their pool. I called another pool company I deal with and he said he looked at doing a pool at this house and walked away because he knew this would happen.
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DVS Hardscaper
09-27-2012, 09:55 AM
Knowing this and knowing that is all moot at this point. Totally irrelevant.

Think about this bud. The homemowner wants the pool fixed. See, you're the one who wants the pool company sued. But its not your home, nor your money. Say the pool company says "ok, we'll fix it we'll start next week", the home owner has no say in who does what. If the pool company were to cooperate (remember that's what the homeowner ultimately wants), the homeowner will not have any say in the matter, and doing so would give the contractor leverage in court. Me, as a contractor, I would fix it before we would go to court, much cheaper for EVERYONE. But it would be on my terms.

Now, is there anything about your patio you don't want another hardscape guy discovering? You used geotextile fabric right? You used the proper sand and aggregate, right?

I'm not intending to be a jerk. One thing my dad taught me when I was a teen ager is "everybody is always nice until it comes to money". Words I live by. Along with these two words: "wishing thinking"


.


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jrmyj
09-27-2012, 10:21 AM
I would much rather everything get fixed especially for the home owner but my problem is they want to do the cheap fix to get them through the winter so they can wash their hands of it. They keep wanting to just fix the wall with the same block and not use geogrid and get the proper drainage. It's a messy deal that could be fixed and everyone is happy but they keep pushing him off and playing the blame game. As far as my patio I'm comfortable with what we've done as far as being right and want to get it back to the original look but also don't want to come back next year and redo it again because corners were cut to save money. I don't think your being a jerk at all. I appreciate the comments. In your comment you said you would fix it before you went to court which is where I stand. If I felt I did a poor job I would be eating repairs because my reputation means everything to me but they don't look at it this way. Again I appreciate your comments.
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DVS Hardscaper
09-27-2012, 10:28 AM
People of a certain ethniticity (lets say where dell's call centee is located) are notorious for going out if their way to have work done at a rock bottom price. Sacrificing all aspects of structural integrity.

As a contractor, I can play along with that. But I have clause after clause after clause in my contract!
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PaperCutter
09-27-2012, 04:19 PM
The sad part is how many times I told the customer it was going to fail and yet I still did it. I thought it would slowly fail but not two days after completion.

I'm still hung up on this line.

jrmyj
09-27-2012, 04:31 PM
What I meant by that was even they kept saying it was good I thought it fail over time as far as the wall bulging out and needing to be redone but didn't think that it would fail to the point of the pool actually picking up on 1 side. I thought it would be a slow fail and caught before any structural damage And damage to my work was done. On a positive note the pool company finally turned it into insurance so now we can move forward without playing the blame game.
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Mark Oomkes
09-29-2012, 01:51 PM
What I meant by that was even they kept saying it was good I thought it fail over time as far as the wall bulging out and needing to be redone but didn't think that it would fail to the point of the pool actually picking up on 1 side. I thought it would be a slow fail and caught before any structural damage And damage to my work was done. On a positive note the pool company finally turned it into insurance so now we can move forward without playing the blame game.
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Been watching this from the start.

So, in other words, they realized they screwed up.

Good luck.

alexschultz1
09-29-2012, 03:34 PM
awesome news man, that homeowner needs to squeeze every dollar out of the insurance company

GreenI.A.
09-30-2012, 12:09 AM
I thought I posted the other day but I must not of hit the "submit reply" button. I was surprised it took so long for insurance to be brought up. If I was in the OP's shoes and the pool company was trying to get me to do the repair at no cost, I would have handled it the same at first. But as the talks continued and they were refusing to pay me I would tell them "I will do it and file a claim with my GL for the labor, I'm sure their attorneys will have plenty to say about this". People use the threat of "I'm calling my layer" way to often and usually it isn't taken seriously, but the thought of the insurance carriers attorneys are often much more threatening than the thought of a contractors attorneys. Just discussing the attorneys may be enough to get the pool company to take a little more responsibility. That above was the advise my own attorney has given me, before I even contact him, always mention the insurance company and their attorneys first.

jrmyj
09-30-2012, 12:25 AM
They said then other day that they didn't realize their insurance would cover it but they have been in business for 30 years. I didn't want to call mine until I had to so I didn't have a claim on me. I'm still not in the clear yet. It's up to the insurance now so I might have to get mine involved by the time it's all said and done
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DVS Hardscaper
09-30-2012, 07:17 AM
I have been in business for 22 yrs and I have no insurance that would cover my error. It would come out of my pocket. I believe its Known as errors and omissions insurance?

And when read the ins company claim would be filed I thought "now it gets even better".


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GreenI.A.
09-30-2012, 08:18 AM
I should clarify my last post about insurance. I'm not saying I would necessarily call insurance or file a claim for it. what I was saying was that I would have told the other contractor that I was going to call my agent in a couple days. I would simply use the threat of calling my carrier.

jmacd
10-03-2012, 12:01 PM
When I look at these photo's my first question is how can anyone install this pool and not see this coming? Water weighs 8 lbs per gallon, how many pounds are pushing out against that wall.

Then add all the weight above the pool on the high side. Wow, the forces were huge. I think you will need quite a structure under ground and above ground backfilled with stone, drainage, etc, on the low side that won't be effected by water to hold that up. JMHO

jmacd
10-03-2012, 12:12 PM
People of a certain ethniticity (lets say where dell's call centee is located) are notorious for going out if their way to have work done at a rock bottom price. Sacrificing all aspects of structural integrity.

As a contractor, I can play along with that. But I have clause after clause after clause in my contract!
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This will not stand up in court. Even if the customer signs your contract and you have clause after clause you are considered the expert. Plain and simple you are the expert, not the customer. So if you build something that fails, you are responsible if it goes to court.

Your contract clause only means you built it knowing it was wrong and still did it for financial gain. You are responsible.

Same thing applies with design work, you are responsible unless you have a stamped set of plans then the engineer is responsible.

DVS Hardscaper
10-03-2012, 12:56 PM
This will not stand up in court. Even if the customer signs your contract and you have clause after clause you are considered the expert. Plain and simple you are the expert, not the customer. So if you build something that fails, you are responsible if it goes to court.

Your contract clause only means you built it knowing it was wrong and still did it for financial gain. You are responsible.

Same thing applies with design work, you are responsible unless you have a stamped set of plans then the engineer is responsible.

I disagree with you 100%. As a contractor I may be an expert, but the customer has every right to choose to do/have something done to his/her satisfaction.

In MD the courts operate by a legal term. "Meeting of the minds".

The purpose of a contract is to do exactly that, establish "meeting of the minds".

So by stating "contractor accepts no liability and or responsibility", with the client initialing that paragraph an signing the contract - we then have "meeting of the minds".

An example that my attorney used was this:

If you come to my house and you just start cutting my grass while wearing a sign on your back that says "lawn mowing $25", and I step outside and wave hello to you - we then have established "meeting of the minds". You had your sign on. I saw it. I acknolodged your presence. And allowed you to proceed.

I can write a contract saying that the customer agrees to perform (10) jumping jacks each time a call comes in on my cell phone. If the customers accepts the contract and agrees to everything stated - then we have "meeting of the minds". They agreed to everything under no duress.

Andrew Hardscape, esq
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jmacd
10-03-2012, 01:26 PM
I would not want to argue law with an attorney. He would know what is best for you.
I know that my attorney and I experienced a different outcome. We experienced this on a project back in 2002 when the customer didn't want to pay for washed stone backfill against a existing block foundation wall. The wall cracked and all the clauses were in place and we got to test your theory along with my insurance company. Needless to say the outcome wasn't what we expected.

I never would allow that to happen again and will not perform any work that is questionable again. Even if the customer requests it to save money.

That being said, I guess it all depends on the situation and what the possible failure could be and what kind of money the failure could cost.

I find that the savings for the customer never out ways the cost to the contractor in defending his actions if you need it. Some work is just not worth doing.

Big difference between a structural failure that could cause personal injury and an aesthetic failure.

DVS Hardscaper
10-03-2012, 02:46 PM
It ultimately boils down to "did the customer know that this is what they were getting?" If you clearly stated everything and the customer agreed in writing to all the specifics - then the contractor has performed his/her duties as hired.

One of my pet peeves is when I read in forums where contractors say "I wrote in the contract that we're Not responsible for injuries". See, if I'm a visitor, there for a graduation party, and I fall down your block steps with 9" rises - I am holding you responsible, I didn't sign the contract, I don't even live there. Just because the home owner agreed that the contractor isnt responsibile doesnt mean that me, the guest, agrees to it. The correct wording should be "client ACCEPTS all responsibility and liability......". Keyword "accepts". With "client" being identified by name(s) at the beginning of the proposal/contract.

.
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jmacd
10-03-2012, 03:56 PM
I think I will stick to doing the work the correct way or not at all. Don't need any more drama.

I bet if you asked any excavating contractors that have been around for a while the answer would be the same.

I don't mind at all letting the "other guy" have the work that is questionable because the customer wants to save money. I don't see the upside for me to do it any other way. I don't need the work that bad.

jrmyj
10-04-2012, 12:11 AM
I agree. Thats why I walked away from the lower wall that the pool was going to be sitting on. More liability then I want to deal with. Sad thing is customer called and it's not over yet. The other company is unbelievable on what they are trying to pull. The customer and I spoke for awhile today both in disbelief what is taking place. Its a long story but not a surprise from what we've seen. Customer is going to have to go the legal route whuch is disappointing. One thing I didn't know you could do is tell your insurance company that you want to make a claim for damages caused by a poor installation but leave out the landscaping even with thrid party structual Engineer report on findings.

DVS Hardscaper
10-04-2012, 08:16 AM
Based on what you write about other pool people looking at the job - sounds like the customer brought most of this on, on their own. So they can enjoy their "disbelief".

It's like the girl dating the guy that everyone warned her about. And now her heart is broken.


.
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DVS Hardscaper
10-04-2012, 08:20 AM
I think I will stick to doing the work the correct way or not at all. Don't need any more drama.

I bet if you asked any excavating contractors that have been around for a while the answer would be the same.

I don't mind at all letting the "other guy" have the work that is questionable because the customer wants to save money. I don't see the upside for me to do it any other way. I don't need the work that bad.

One thing you need to keep in mind here is we're conversing via text. Only so much one is able to write.

I am notorious for wanting work to go to others.

But there are variables to everything where if a client insists on something and it won't flood any basements, cause personal injury, damage to any dwellings, or reflect poorly on us in the eyes of the neighbors - we're probably going to do it. With clauses.
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jrmyj
10-04-2012, 09:43 AM
Your spot on dvs. I had the clauses in my paperwork. But the other company didn't have any and were positive that everything would be there for years to come with no problems. The customer was sold. He should have listened to me and the other pool people so in that regard I agree but if a company says they can do it and there will be no problem then it falls on them. The customer doesn't build pools so he seek a professional company and relied on what they said. I more then anything feel bad for them. There good people and saved up a lot of money for this. But your right on the text. My documentation incase I get pulled into court is over 7 pages now on every conversation and observation so there's a lot I'm leaving out and just hitting the key points.
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bigslick7878
10-05-2012, 01:56 AM
Someone is gonna be real upset when they get that repair bill.....wow.

alexschultz1
10-06-2012, 05:09 PM
They didn't have any clauses in their contract? They are at fault 100% no doubt and will loose in court for the pool repair, but what says they are responsible for your job? If they are responsible for installing a pool on uneven ground, then shouldn't you be responsible for installing a patio on uneven ground too? You say they should have had soil tests done, well how about you?

Say you build a retaining wall, holding back a large chunk of land, you finish you work and leave, all you were told to do is hold back the dirt. So you would expect, if your wall fails, to be responsible for everything on the job when you left the job site. Now what if someone builds a $1,000,000 home on the high side of the wall, your wall fails and ruins the home. Now who is responsible for the home? The builder of the retaining wall, or the builder of the home?

jrmyj
10-11-2012, 09:17 PM
Well insurance covered the whole thing including my landscaping. The insurance adjuster took one look at the engineers report and covered it. Now this is where the plot thickens. The pool company called and said they refuse to work if my company has any part of the job because their owner doesn't like me. (That was seriously said). The customer said see you in court because his loyalty was with me. I talked with the adjuster and he slipped up and said the owner doesn't like me because he lost and he doesn't loose. The customer said he was behind me all the way and that they were pissed because I pointed everything out. Then I got the call today from the customer saying that he had to go with the other company to rebuild my work so they would fix his pool. My wife tells me all the time that I trust way too much and am to loyal and I guess this is another example. I had over 40 hours in design and helping him get everything lined up for the insurance day to come only to be tossed to the side and have someone else get credit for my design and guys hardwork. I'm pretty disappointed but on the positive note when it falls again next year because they are redoing the retaining wall with the same block and not putting any drainage then I won't have to deal with it.
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zedosix
10-11-2012, 09:32 PM
Morale of this story is don't waste your time trying to be mr nice guy.

jrmyj
10-11-2012, 09:37 PM
I'm really realizing that this year with employees and customers. A lot of truth to nice guys finish last.
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alldayrj
10-11-2012, 09:40 PM
Thats terrible man. Learn an move to the next i guess
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zedosix
10-11-2012, 09:44 PM
One of the many things you young contractors are going to learn. If you want good advice listen to your elders, they've already #%@ed up and know better.

DVS Hardscaper
10-11-2012, 10:42 PM
Well insurance covered the whole thing including my landscaping. The insurance adjuster took one look at the engineers report and covered it. Now this is where the plot thickens. The pool company called and said they refuse to work if my company has any part of the job because their owner doesn't like me. (That was seriously said). The customer said see you in court because his loyalty was with me. I talked with the adjuster and he slipped up and said the owner doesn't like me because he lost and he doesn't loose. The customer said he was behind me all the way and that they were pissed because I pointed everything out. Then I got the call today from the customer saying that he had to go with the other company to rebuild my work so they would fix his pool. My wife tells me all the time that I trust way too much and am to loyal and I guess this is another example. I had over 40 hours in design and helping him get everything lined up for the insurance day to come only to be tossed to the side and have someone else get credit for my design and guys hardwork. I'm pretty disappointed but on the positive note when it falls again next year because they are redoing the retaining wall with the same block and not putting any drainage then I won't have to deal with it.
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I'm not trying to be nasty by any stretch - but dude, (spoken in a chipper, comforting tone) I went out of my way and I typed a comment in this thread telling you - that there is NO WAY the pool contractor will work with you on this repair job.

I TOLD YOU POINT BLANK :)

I dont have time to scroll back, but I remember taking my statement a step further and I even qualified my statement by explaining why. I even references that it appeared you were way to focused on wanting to see the pool contractor drown.

It doesn't matter if someone (the insurance agent) slipped up. I'm the contractor. I write the checks. My name is on the job. I'm responsible for rebuilding that job. Not the customer. Not the Man on the Moon. I'm not going to hire a contractor I don't like. Never. Ever. Ever. If I don't like you - then I certainly don't believe in you and it'll be a cold day in hell before I use you!

Anytime there are tense, negative moments, ONE UPPING (you telling the contractor the only way you would work for him is with full payment upfront), whether it's for a prospective client, an existing client, or a situation as you were a part of - you can kiss ALL chances of landing that job GOODBYE.

Trust me, no one knows better than myself.


.

jrmyj
10-11-2012, 10:53 PM
Maybe I'm naive but shouldn't you as a customer have a choice who does work at your house regardless of who's cutting the checks. I know if there was a company that built something I loved and wanted the exact thing recreated then I would stand my ground. I knew they wouldn't work with me and I didn't want to work with them after the bully sh$@ they tried pulling on me. It just feels like I'm being punished for being honest and doing the right thing and now all the neighbors will see the pools trucks and other landscape company trucks and not mine which they don't know the situation so I look bad in their eyes
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DVS Hardscaper
10-11-2012, 11:15 PM
Maybe I'm naive but shouldn't you as a customer have a choice who does work at your house regardless of who's cutting the checks. Posted via Mobile Device

NOPE. If you as a customer wanna choose the contractors then you should act as the GC.

My customers dont have any say in who I use as a sub. I even have a clause in proposal stating that I can hire subs anytime I want whoever I want. (although I almost never use subs, but I have that clause incase I'm hospitalized, or all my employees quit at once).

As far as the neighbors seeing other trucks there - you'll learn not to try to one up others and you'll learn when to shut your mouth :) As I stated in the permeable edging thread - as you get older you get wiser you learn to just not say anything :)

Note my "Its You vs You" in my signature line

jrmyj
10-11-2012, 11:31 PM
I would rather shut my doors before I ever backed down to somebody blaming me for something I didn't do and tell me I did a bad job trying to shift the blame and then open end threaten me that they could take me to court. I am not an outspoken person and go with the flow but those are the buttons that will always set me off. It wasn't one uping it was stating facts that they didn't want to accept. I Garuntee anybody else would have flipped their lid fast with the way these guys were talking to me. And I never yelled and kept it professional but stood my ground and was blunt but not once raised my voice. But everything happens for a reason so we'll see what this one was
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DVS Hardscaper
10-12-2012, 08:12 AM
I would rather shut my doors before I ever backed down to somebody blaming me for something I didn't do and tell me I did a bad job trying to shift the blame and then open end threaten me that they could take me to court. I am not an outspoken person and go with the flow but those are the buttons that will always set me off. It wasn't one uping it was stating facts that they didn't want to accept. I Garuntee anybody else would have flipped their lid fast with the way these guys were talking to me. And I never yelled and kept it professional but stood my ground and was blunt but not once raised my voice. But everything happens for a reason so we'll see what this one was
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I couldnt agree more, I'm the same way. Like my thread a couple weeks ago where the pool contractor wanted me to knock 30% off our job so they could mark it up. All they did was pass a lead on to me, they don't need 30%, it wasn't a project that they needed to manage. I specifically told the guy last spring that I will be happy to proce work for them but we're not discounting it and I will not work under them, and I told them that I would pay a finders fee for any jobs they send me and that I would refer them to anyone needing their type of work. So when he sent me that e-mail more or less demanding a 30% discount - my response more or less stated "you can shove your leads up your behind".

But see, here's the kicker - when you/I/we contractors stand our ground - there is a reality. And the reality is, as soon as we stand our ground - we just lost ANY chance of doing that job.

You remember me asking you if your work was done to industry standards? I asked you "is there anything substandard about your work that the contractor who redoes your work will easily discover?"

What happened in your case is you got scared that you would have to go to court, with the potential being named in the suit. Your posts made much mention of it being the pool contractor's fault and you focused on his attitude, you wanted him to be the one to burn in hell.

So, on a positive note you're not being sued, and/or you're not having to spend anytime meeting with the client's lawyers and 2 days testifying in court. (I was an expert witness in court, I had about 40 hours of my time invested in the case) Ultimately.......you're off the hook all together. That's a great thing! The wanting to be the one to re-do the work - well I call that "wishful thinking".

About 7 years ago we did a $40k hardscape job around a pool. The pool maintenance company came out for a meeting with me and the client. The owner of the pool company told a blantant lie to the Mrs. I had no choice but to call him out infront of her. I knew before doing so that me and the pool contractor would never ever have any sort of relationship from that point on.

jrmyj
10-12-2012, 08:29 AM
About 7 years ago we did a $40k hardscape job around a pool. The pool maintenance company came out for a meeting with me and the client. The owner of the pool company told a blantant lie to the Mrs. I had no choice but to call him out infront of her. I knew before doing so that me and the pool contractor would never ever have any sort of relationship from that point on.[/QUOTE]

Would you really want to work for that guy again because that's what I was dealing with and I wouldn't want their company on the same ground as mine. I just get irritated that other companies look at hardscape companies as almost a second class business and that we should be cheap and bend like comments when the guys were installing the pool they displaced all the customers river rock and instead of fixing it they said the landscapers could take care of it like my time was free. I really wasn't worried about my work and definatley not worried about the new company coming into redo it. They are planning on leaving all the walls and stairs and still removing all the rock base to start the compaction over again but all the base rock is part of that area so it should be interesting to see how it goes. But your right I'm happy to not be a part of it again or deal with court. It's easier for the customer to do it their way and I get that. More a case of hurt pride and in business we all know our pride can get in the way from time to time
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etwman
10-12-2012, 09:47 AM
Everyone from homeowner to pool installer to hardscape contractor are at fault. Homeowner because he didn't do his due dilegence and get some sound advice before going ahead, pool installer for installing what almost looks like an inground pool , above ground. Lastly contractor (you) for taking on a job that even you knew was going to fail. Nasty all around.

Zedosix is dead nuts on. It all comes down to cheap price and contractors who didn't have a clue what is right and a homeowner who didn't do their homework. I'd take a wrecking ball to the whole thing. There's no drainage, improper backfill (I'm not even sure if you can backfill against a shell like that correctly). Honestly, as much as I hate to say it, they'd have been better off with a deck. The attorney's are going to have a day on this.

jrmyj
10-12-2012, 10:16 AM
I agree. I told the owner the other night after hearing about the wall would have no drainage that he should forget about the pool and told him it would fail again without a doubt and he said he understood that but his wife really wanted it so now its completely on him. I've only been in a family business of manufacturing my whole life so I know ins and outs of business but that was business to business. I've only been in business for 5 years and dealing with the end product and actual consumers is much different and I definatley have a lot to learn yet and took some good lessons from this deal. Biggest lesson is to not be afraid to walk away from a job if I think it's going to be trouble in the future. I really appreciate everyone's feedback and insight
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neighborguy
10-12-2012, 11:14 AM
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jmacd
10-12-2012, 03:27 PM
The outcome wasn't very good. First off be happy that your are not going back.

I don't see this working in your favor. The pool guys will be looking for any reason to hurt you. They could sabotage your work, or just make sure that you look bad.

If you have worked on a project were the contractor's doing the work don't get along you should know how hard it is to come out with your hide in the end. In this case no option but to walk away even if the owner wanted you to do the work, the pool work and the pool is reason you had the job in the first place not the other way around.

When you first start out you have to take on what ever work comes your way to pay the bills. After some hard lessons, and paying your dues you will get to the place were you are picky about what jobs you do and who you work for. You have to be paranoid about every project you do, think about all the bad that can happen and CYA. This will come with time and experience, ( money lost).

If it was easy everyone would do it.