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Basilhayden
09-30-2012, 08:13 PM
important? My dealer has told me to use 89 octane gas in my mower and handhelds. On the other hand, I can get ethanol free gas in 87 octane. Would the ethanol free/lower octane be better to run? Thanks

cgaengineer
09-30-2012, 08:26 PM
89 in handhelds and 87 in mowers is fine...

That being said, I have not experienced but one problem that I could even relate to ethanol...I think sometimes its used as a thing to blame for crap equipment and poor mechanic work...I'm not saying this is the case all of the time.
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32vld
09-30-2012, 08:50 PM
Octane of 87 without alcohol and octane of 87 with alcohol is the same as far as octane rating.

kawakx125
09-30-2012, 09:12 PM
ethanol can and has been proven to be harder on seals and stuff in fuel systems of vehicles. it can eat certain rubbers pretty quickly. newer ones are designed with this in mind but older engines can have problems related to it. it's pretty standard around here to have at least 10% ethanol. the other issue i have with ethanol is there is less energy per gallon than straight gasoline, so you need more ethanol to make the same power. this translates to lower fuel mileage. granted at 10% its not a huge difference but it's still there all the same.

cgaengineer
09-30-2012, 09:26 PM
ethanol can and has been proven to be harder on seals and stuff in fuel systems of vehicles. it can eat certain rubbers pretty quickly. newer ones are designed with this in mind but older engines can have problems related to it. it's pretty standard around here to have at least 10% ethanol. the other issue i have with ethanol is there is less energy per gallon than straight gasoline, so you need more ethanol to make the same power. this translates to lower fuel mileage. granted at 10% its not a huge difference but it's still there all the same.

You've opened a can of worms now! I've said ethanol produces less energy on here before and was ridiculed.
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greendoctor
10-01-2012, 05:12 AM
Ethanol has less carbon per pound versus petroleum because of the oxygen in its molecule. The lower percentage of carbon is why there are fewer BTUs, therefore less energy released when it is burned or used in an engine. That oxygen in its molecule is what contributes to its corrosive properties above and beyond what is caused by its tendency to absorb water. In terms of fuel value: ethanol<gasoline<biodiesel<diesel.

kawakx125
10-01-2012, 08:03 AM
another thing i don't understand is why diesel is more expensive now, it's a less refined ''dirtier'' product

cgaengineer
10-01-2012, 08:14 AM
another thing i don't understand is why diesel is more expensive now, it's a less refined ''dirtier'' product

No joke...it's because we depend on it so much for transportation of food.
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easy-lift guy
10-01-2012, 08:54 AM
Use only non Ethanol fuel for your equipment. No need to support the corn lobby any more than most are forced to.
easy-lift guy

MWLawnService
10-01-2012, 09:52 AM
another thing i don't understand is why diesel is more expensive now, it's a less refined ''dirtier'' product

Tell me about it. It makes absolutely no sense.

kawakx125
10-01-2012, 10:28 AM
wasn't that long ago diesel was at LEAST a dollar cheaper than 87 gasoline

32vld
10-01-2012, 10:33 AM
To just say gasoline has more energy per gallon and then walk away leaves out a lot of important information.

If gasoline is the more powerful fuel then when are the alcohol and nitromethane users going to start losing races to gasoline running cars instead of having the fastest times?

Gasoline A/F ratio is 14.7:1.

Gasoline engines need 14.7 parts of air to burn all of that 1 part of gas up during combustion. Putting in more fuel will just be wasting it.

Alcohol has less energy though more fuel gets into each cylinder. Because it needs less air to completely burn so some of the air's volume is replaced with fuel. A/F ratio is around 6:1 with alcohol.

That means that alcohol fueled engines get 2.45 more times the fuel into the cylinder.

Alcohol has 2/3 the energy of gasoline. But 2.45 times more alcohol gets into the cylinder. So multiply .667 x 2.45 = 1.63 more energy.

Alcohol fuel has it's advantages and disadvantages. Where I live you only can buy 10% blend alcohol and gas at the pump.

When manufacturers refuse to build there equipment to be able to run with alcohol blended fuels they are refusing to face reality and giving their customers a big FU with every piece of equipment that they sell to their customers, or should replace the words sell to their customers with stick it to their customers.

Years ago when alcohol was introduced into gas by federal mandate I was a GM dealer mechanic. At the factory GM school their instructor said that GM told the gov. that it's cars can run on alcohol up to 10%.
That the ethanol should be the alcohol of choice. It is less harmful to the cars parts.

That methanol would need to be run at a 5% blend and would be more harmful to the cars parts.

Well our elected representatives in the capital let the methanol lobbist's buy their votes instead of listening to the automotive manufacturing experts.

So we had more alcohol related problems as a result. Then as happens eventually station tanks leak and the MTBE, which the added methanol was named began to poison our waters. This is when the Fed Gov prohibited MTBE as a fuel additive with replaced it with ethanol.

Common sense is when engine manufactures say ethanol is a better fuel additive then methanol. When ethanol is non poisonous (it is in our favorite adult beverages) so if it was to leak into the ground waters the environment would not be harmed. That methanol/MTBE use as a fuel additive would of been rejected by both houses of congress.

The question that needs to be asked: Why does the American public continually vote in people that are that dumb, that corrupt, or both, every election?

Maybe congress feared an ethanol shortage and the end of the three martini lunches, and all business in Washington DC would come to a stand still for they would not have the fuel and lubrication so necessary to govern.

easy-lift guy
10-01-2012, 10:42 AM
Tell me about it. It makes absolutely no sense.

Diesel cost more becuse we are exporting all excess supplies and the balance for domestic consumption pays the difference. Just returned from the UK on a business trip Two weeks ago and Diesel was $9.00 per gal. If anyone wants to complain abouit the fuel cost here in the US, you and everyone else have no idea how good you have it.
easy-lift guy

cgaengineer
10-01-2012, 11:43 AM
To just say gasoline has more energy per gallon and then walk away leaves out a lot of important information.

If gasoline is the more powerful fuel then when are the alcohol and nitromethane users going to start losing races to gasoline running cars instead of having the fastest times?

Gasoline A/F ratio is 14.7:1.

Gasoline engines need 14.7 parts of air to burn all of that 1 part of gas up during combustion. Putting in more fuel will just be wasting it.

Alcohol has less energy though more fuel gets into each cylinder. Because it needs less air to completely burn so some of the air's volume is replaced with fuel. A/F ratio is around 6:1 with alcohol.

That means that alcohol fueled engines get 2.45 more times the fuel into the cylinder.

Alcohol has 2/3 the energy of gasoline. But 2.45 times more alcohol gets into the cylinder. So multiply .667 x 2.45 = 1.63 more energy.

Alcohol fuel has it's advantages and disadvantages. Where I live you only can buy 10% blend alcohol and gas at the pump.

When manufacturers refuse to build there equipment to be able to run with alcohol blended fuels they are refusing to face reality and giving their customers a big FU with every piece of equipment that they sell to their customers, or should replace the words sell to their customers with stick it to their customers.

Years ago when alcohol was introduced into gas by federal mandate I was a GM dealer mechanic. At the factory GM school their instructor said that GM told the gov. that it's cars can run on alcohol up to 10%.
That the ethanol should be the alcohol of choice. It is less harmful to the cars parts.

That methanol would need to be run at a 5% blend and would be more harmful to the cars parts.

Well our elected representatives in the capital let the methanol lobbist's buy their votes instead of listening to the automotive manufacturing experts.

So we had more alcohol related problems as a result. Then as happens eventually station tanks leak and the MTBE, which the added methanol was named began to poison our waters. This is when the Fed Gov prohibited MTBE as a fuel additive with replaced it with ethanol.

Common sense is when engine manufactures say ethanol is a better fuel additive then methanol. When ethanol is non poisonous (it is in our favorite adult beverages) so if it was to leak into the ground waters the environment would not be harmed. That methanol/MTBE use as a fuel additive would of been rejected by both houses of congress.

The question that needs to be asked: Why does the American public continually vote in people that are that dumb, that corrupt, or both, every election?

Maybe congress feared an ethanol shortage and the end of the three martini lunches, and all business in Washington DC would come to a stand still for they would not have the fuel and lubrication so necessary to govern.




You backed my statement. Pound for pound, less energy. It takes more alcohol to equal the same btu as gasoline. And unless the engine is designed to run on alcohol the performance vs gasoline will be less.
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cgaengineer
10-01-2012, 11:58 AM
Two equal compression engines, one running ethanol and one gas. The gas engine would produce more power...can't be argued, goes against physics.

Change the compression ratio which adds more air to the combustion process allowing the lower energy, but higher octane alcohol to produce more power.
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cgaengineer
10-01-2012, 12:01 PM
And once again...everyone brings out race cars using alcohol vs gasoline.

Your daily driver is not a race car, a race engine or a high compression engine...nor is your "designed for 87 octane" mower or trimmer.
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kawakx125
10-01-2012, 01:13 PM
alcohol also has a higher octane rating, and the extra fuel also equates to some extra cylinder cooling. Yes, when you are talking full on race engine alcohol has plenty of advantages. that makes up a very small portion of engines out there, and they aren't on the road. even with the 10% ethanol being sold in pumps now there IS a mileage drop, and with the drought we had this year i doubt ethanol has much savings at all. If you compare e85 to gasoline i don't believe there is any cost savings. E85 is only at max 40-50 cents cheaper around here. I get 17mpg on gasoline and i've heard i'd get maybe 11-12 with e85.

today gasoline was 3.65 at quiktrip. that is 22 cents per mile at 17mpg for me.
E85 is 3.20. that is 27 cents per mile at 12mpg. for me, it's actually MORE expensive to use e85

32vld
10-01-2012, 02:57 PM
Two equal compression engines, one running ethanol and one gas. The gas engine would produce more power...can't be argued, goes against physics.

Change the compression ratio which adds more air to the combustion process allowing the lower energy, but higher octane alcohol to produce more power.
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Changing compression ratio does not change the amount of air that a naturally aspirated engine can draw in.

Alcohol engines do not produce more power because they run at a higher compression. They produce more power because more fuel gets into the cylinder. Lower energy fuel is put in quantity greater, 2.45 times more fuel, enough greater volume of fuel that more power is produced.

cgaengineer
10-01-2012, 04:34 PM
Changing compression ratio does not change the amount of air that a naturally aspirated engine can draw in.

Alcohol engines do not produce more power because they run at a higher compression. They produce more power because more fuel gets into the cylinder. Lower energy fuel is put in quantity greater, 2.45 times more fuel, enough greater volume of fuel that more power is produced.

My analogy on compression ratio was described wrong.

Please explain to me how more fuel would get into the cylinder of a stock engine running alcohol vs gasoline. Both equal engines, same carbs same everything.

When I ran karts the carb jets were drilled larger for alcohol but no power gains were achieved from running alcohol. Dyno testing proved this. Same engines, same carbs...change one jet to run alcohol, now change the jet to run gas...same power.

Now try to run the alcohol engine on gasoline or vice versa and they would not run properly if at all.
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32vld
10-02-2012, 12:01 AM
If you are going to put the same amount of fuel is one thing.

The advantage of why you can use alcohol to get more power is because you can put more fuel in a cylinder and it will completely burn. Where extra gasoline won't get burnt and will go out the tail pipe.

Why do alcohol dragsters go faster?

Is it because alcohol weighs less then gas so the weight reduction makes them faster?

Or is it they can get more power out of alcohol?

Yes different fuels have different btu producing ability. That fact alone is misleading because ignores what can be done in the real world.

CL&T
10-02-2012, 01:34 AM
To answer the original question, all 2 stroke manufacturers tell you not to use lower than 89 octane. I don't know of any 4 stroke manufacturers that tell you that. So unfortunately if all you have in E0 (ethanol free) is 87 you are stuck with using E10 89 octane in your 2 strokes. I see no problems and only advantages to using the E0 87 octane in your 4 stroke stuff.

CL&T
10-02-2012, 01:53 AM
Incidentally they are trying to push through the requirement for E15 (15% ethanol) even though any more that 10% is prohibited by all small engine manufacturers and will harm many other equipment and older cars. Both will likely be available from the same pump which will lead to huge misfueling problems from people not knowing what their car can run on. The government has even come up with the stupid idea that where both E10 and E15 are available from the same hose and pump that there be a 4 gal minimum purchase of E10 just to purge the pump and hose of E15 to make sure the ethanol content of the E10 is not greater than 10%.

cgaengineer
10-02-2012, 04:17 AM
If you are going to put the same amount of fuel is one thing.

The advantage of why you can use alcohol to get more power is because you can put more fuel in a cylinder and it will completely burn. Where extra gasoline won't get burnt and will go out the tail pipe.



Why do alcohol dragsters go faster?

Is it because alcohol weighs less then gas so the weight reduction makes them faster?

Or is it they can get more power out of alcohol?

Yes different fuels have different btu producing ability. That fact alone is misleading because ignores what can be done in the real world.



Alcohol dragsters go faster because the engines are built for alcohol, but once again...we are talking mower and trimmer engines, not supercharged high compression engines DESIGNED to run on ALL alcohol.

Btus are still btus...in order to make more power out of less btus something has to change internally inside an engine...so they increase the compression ration and install superchargers that can utilize the higher octane ethanol, though lower btu and in turn they overcome the lower btu output of the fuel.
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GMLC
10-02-2012, 07:26 AM
This has been talked about before. Yes ethanol has less BTU's than gas but has more energy density. Higher ethanol produces more HP. Below are the results from many studies done to prove this. Sorry its hard to read because the chart doesnt copy and paste just the text. Ethanol content is the second line down and HP is second from bottom. Results are listed in order from E10 up to E85.


Table 4. Heavy-Load (4.7 L Engine)
Fuel Ethanol Content 10% 20% 30% 85%
BTU content (BTU/gal) 111,070 107,140 103,210 81,595
% change in BTU’s per gallon 0% -3.5% -7.1% -26.5%
65 mph
Hp 50.8 52.1 52.0 54.4
Gph 5.96 6.08 6.27 6.93
Mpg 10.7 10.5 10.3 9.3
BTU’s per mile 10,347 10,237 10,016 8,744
Gallons per hp hr 0.117 0.117 0.120 0.127
BTU per hp hr 13,035 12,514 12,431 10,393
Fuel Trim % -2.6% -1.0% -1.4% -0.6%
Injector Pulse Width (ms) 8.5 8.6 9.1 11.6
% change in pulse width 0% 0% 7% 36%
50 mph
Hp 34.5 33.0 40.4 33.3
Gph 3.81 3.91 4.01 4.51
Mpg 13.1 12.8 13.1 11.1
BTU’s per mile 8,459 8,348 7,908 7,338
Gallons per hp hr 0.110 0.118 0.099 0.135
BTU per hp hr 12,271 12,678 10,253 11,043
Test Cycle
Mpg 12.7 12.4 12.2 10.9
% change in mpg 0% -2% -4% -14%
BTU’s per mile 8,738 8,348 7,908 7,338
% change in BTU’s per mile 0% -1% -3% -14%
Cost per mile $0.193 $0.196 $0.198 $0.183
% change in cost per mile 0% 1.6% 2.6% -5.2%
Other
Max hp (2nd gear) 195 197 198 202
Max torque (2nd gear) 235 241 240 247

cgaengineer
10-02-2012, 07:38 AM
This has been talked about before. Yes ethanol has less BTU's than gas but has more energy density. Higher ethanol produces more HP. Below are the results from many studies done to prove this. Sorry its hard to read because the chart doesnt copy and paste just the text. Ethanol content is the second line down and HP is second from bottom. Results are listed in order from E10 up to E85.


Table 4. Heavy-Load (4.7 L Engine)
Fuel Ethanol Content 10% 20% 30% 85%
BTU content (BTU/gal) 111,070 107,140 103,210 81,595
% change in BTU’s per gallon 0% -3.5% -7.1% -26.5%
65 mph
Hp 50.8 52.1 52.0 54.4
Gph 5.96 6.08 6.27 6.93
Mpg 10.7 10.5 10.3 9.3
BTU’s per mile 10,347 10,237 10,016 8,744
Gallons per hp hr 0.117 0.117 0.120 0.127
BTU per hp hr 13,035 12,514 12,431 10,393
Fuel Trim % -2.6% -1.0% -1.4% -0.6%
Injector Pulse Width (ms) 8.5 8.6 9.1 11.6
% change in pulse width 0% 0% 7% 36%
50 mph
Hp 34.5 33.0 40.4 33.3
Gph 3.81 3.91 4.01 4.51
Mpg 13.1 12.8 13.1 11.1
BTU’s per mile 8,459 8,348 7,908 7,338
Gallons per hp hr 0.110 0.118 0.099 0.135
BTU per hp hr 12,271 12,678 10,253 11,043
Test Cycle
Mpg 12.7 12.4 12.2 10.9
% change in mpg 0% -2% -4% -14%
BTU’s per mile 8,738 8,348 7,908 7,338
% change in BTU’s per mile 0% -1% -3% -14%
Cost per mile $0.193 $0.196 $0.198 $0.183
% change in cost per mile 0% 1.6% 2.6% -5.2%
Other
Max hp (2nd gear) 195 197 198 202
Max torque (2nd gear) 235 241 240 247

This is an engine designed to run on either fuel and would naturally have ways to ret@ard timing when using straight gas to prevent preignition. Engine is tuned to generally run e85.
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GMLC
10-02-2012, 07:51 AM
This is an engine designed to run on either fuel and would naturally have ways to ret@ard timing when using straight gas to prevent preignition. Engine is tuned to generally run e85.
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These results are from a stock 2005 Dodge Ram with 4.7L Magnum. Test was also done on three other vehicles with similar results but I didnt want to copy and paste a bunch of the same stuff(I can if you want). Final conclusion was less BTU's per horsepower are needed with higher ethanol but more fuel was burned droping MPG. This was a HP and MPG study.

Ridin' Green
10-03-2012, 01:38 AM
To answer the original question, all 2 stroke manufacturers tell you not to use lower than 89 octane. I don't know of any 4 stroke manufacturers that tell you that. So unfortunately if all you have in E0 (ethanol free) is 87 you are stuck with using E10 89 octane in your 2 strokes. I see no problems and only advantages to using the E0 87 octane in your 4 stroke stuff.

Just for clarification- Stihl 4 mix engines may run on 2 stoke mix, but they are still 4 stroke. So are the Shindy C4 machines. They recommend 89 or higher octane as well for all their equipment to keep it from running too hot.:)

Lean_Mean_Green_Machine
10-03-2012, 02:55 AM
Diesel cost more becuse we are exporting all excess supplies and the balance for domestic consumption pays the difference. Just returned from the UK on a business trip Two weeks ago and Diesel was $9.00 per gal. If anyone wants to complain abouit the fuel cost here in the US, you and everyone else have no idea how good you have it.
easy-lift guy

The reason why diesel is more expensive than gas in America, I believe, is because of the need for it to be ULSD. In alot of other countries, diesel is half the price of what their gas is, keeping in mind that it does not have the sulfur refined out of it..

32vld
10-03-2012, 12:23 PM
Alcohol has been in gasoline since at least the early 1990's. It's there to reduce emissions the way diesel has limits on sulfur to reduce harmful emissions.

To those that complain that alcohol is in gas, remember the days when dry gas (alcohol) was added in the winter?

This means that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix.

As to the price in diesel. I tried to google a chart on truck freight history that would point out what is common knowledge to know how diesel fuel demand has grown.

The change over from rail to truck has steadily grown from the 1920's.

Post WWII, the switch to diesel began. By the 1960's most 18 wheelers where diesel While many large straight trucks were still gas. In 1964 my local fire dept bought it's last gas powered fire trucks, two 1,000 gpm trucks.

By 1970's Diesels were replacing gas engines in large straight trucks.
I don't remember when school bus went diesel but their are no more diesel school buses whether full sized or mid sized.

1980's small and mid size trucks started to switch over to diesel.

Then since the 1990's the mall haulers, you know the 2,500 and 3,500 pickups whether SRW or DRW's, look like they are never used to carry anything but their wives shopping bags from the mall to their home have diesels in them.

Supply vs demand controls price. Not only have the number of trucks on the road have increased the number of gas powered trucks has decreased the diesel powered trucks have increased.

CL&T
10-03-2012, 01:02 PM
Alcohol has been in gasoline since at least the early 1990's. It's there to reduce emissions the way diesel has limits on sulfur to reduce harmful emissions.

To those that complain that alcohol is in gas, remember the days when dry gas (alcohol) was added in the winter?

This means that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix.

I think it's a stretch to say that ethanol has been in gasoline since the early 90's. I remember going from lead to MBTE. That disaster was banned starting in 2004 and replaced with ethanol, another disaster.

You also can't compare the use of dry gas. A few ounces added to a tank of gas- the percentage would hardly approach the 10% and up we have to deal with today. Further, I doubt anybody used it for small engines.

So your statement that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix is hardly inaccurate.

cgaengineer
10-03-2012, 03:02 PM
I think it's a stretch to say that ethanol has been in gasoline since the early 90's. I remember going from lead to MBTE. That disaster was banned starting in 2004 and replaced with ethanol, another disaster.

You also can't compare the use of dry gas. A few ounces added to a tank of gas- the percentage would hardly approach the 10% and up we have to deal with today. Further, I doubt anybody used it for small engines.

So your statement that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix is hardly inaccurate.

Yeah, 8oz of methanol fuel treatment in a 20 gallon tank is no where close to 10%. This was used to absorb water due to condensation which would help the water mix with the fuel since it attaches itself to the alcohol. I too can only remember ethanol being added to fuel within the last 10 years...
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cgaengineer
10-03-2012, 03:05 PM
2005 was the year when ethanol was required in fuels...
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kawakx125
10-03-2012, 10:52 PM
are you saying that the gasoline demand has gone down? i'm talking about the steep increase in price of diesel just in the past 10 years, compared to gasoline. 10 years ago diesel was much cheaper than gasoline, now its more expensive.

32vld
10-03-2012, 11:30 PM
I think it's a stretch to say that ethanol has been in gasoline since the early 90's. I remember going from lead to MBTE. That disaster was banned starting in 2004 and replaced with ethanol, another disaster.

You also can't compare the use of dry gas. A few ounces added to a tank of gas- the percentage would hardly approach the 10% and up we have to deal with today. Further, I doubt anybody used it for small engines.

So your statement that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix is hardly inaccurate.

Not a stretch and I did not say ethanol I said alcohol since the early 90's.
MTBE which had methanol as the form of alcohol was chosen by the Fed Gov/EPA to be mixed in the gas at 5%. In 1992 I sat in the class at a General Motors Training Center. Things I have been stating were taught to me there.

Then methanol was replaced with ethanol when MTBE was banned. Since the 90's when alcohol was added to fuel whether methanol then later ethanol you could not buy gas that was alcohol free where I live. Small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to get ready. They chose to drag their feet.

If alcohol was so harmful, people had no problem putting in two cans at a time of dry gas, isopropyl alcohol, in their gas tanks.

32vld
10-03-2012, 11:43 PM
are you saying that the gasoline demand has gone down? i'm talking about the steep increase in price of diesel just in the past 10 years, compared to gasoline. 10 years ago diesel was much cheaper than gasoline, now its more expensive.

Can you point out where I said gasoline cosumption has gone down?

I do know that every decade there are more cars on the road then the previous one.

I do know that big luxury cars in the late 1950's and 1960's got 12 mpg.
That luxury sedans today get double that.
That my 2001 full sized suburban will get 20.7 mpg

What I don't know is how much increased cars and light trucks on the road is offset by much better gas mileage to say exactly how much gas consumption has grown.

What I did point out was a response to why diesel demand has geatly increased and this is why diesel costs more the gasoline. That there are so many more diesel trucks every decade since the 1940's. Where by the 1970's so many types of truck beside 18 wheelers have gone to diesel power.

CL&T
10-04-2012, 12:17 AM
... are you saying that the gasoline demand has gone down?

Yes. Actually it has because of more fuel efficient vehicles and less miles driven because of high gasoline costs. That has really thrown a monkey wrench into the government requirement of yearly increases in ethanol consumption. They were counting on increased gasoline consumption which is what they promised the "corn cartel". But the opposite happened and E85 never caught on which is why they are moving to up the ethanol percentage to 15%.

... i'm talking about the steep increase in price of diesel just in the past 10 years, compared to gasoline. 10 years ago diesel was much cheaper than gasoline, now its more expensive.

As much as I looked I really can't find a satisfactory answer to that. Low sulphur and increased consumption are factors. Some places say that refinaries are geared to gasoline production so diesel production is less but then I see that we produce more diesel than we use. So all I can think of is that somebody is making money off of it.

CL&T
10-04-2012, 12:59 AM
Not a stretch and I did not say ethanol I said alcohol since the early 90's.
MTBE which had methanol as the form of alcohol was chosen by the Fed Gov/EPA to be mixed in the gas at 5%. In 1992 I sat in the class at a General Motors Training Center. Things I have been stating were taught to me there.

Then methanol was replaced with ethanol when MTBE was banned. Since the 90's when alcohol was added to fuel whether methanol then later ethanol you could not buy gas that was alcohol free where I live. Small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to get ready. They chose to drag their feet.


MTBE is not methanol, it is derived from methanol and isobutylene.

Forgeting for the moment that ethanol and MTBE will destroy rubber compounds which include fuel lines and other fuel system components, there is nothing that can be done about phase separation where the gasoline and ethanol laden water separate out. This is not something manufacturers could "get ready for" by doing anything about.

If alcohol was so harmful, people had no problem putting in two cans at a time of dry gas, isopropyl alcohol, in their gas tanks

Well, lets see. Two cans of dry gas is what, 40 oz? Mix that with 20 gallons of fuel what do you have, about 1.5% if my math is correct.

32vld
10-04-2012, 09:50 AM
MTBE is not methanol, it is derived from methanol and isobutylene.

Forgeting for the moment that ethanol and MTBE will destroy rubber compounds which include fuel lines and other fuel system components, there is nothing that can be done about phase separation where the gasoline and ethanol laden water separate out. This is not something manufacturers could "get ready for" by doing anything about.



Well, lets see. Two cans of dry gas is what, 40 oz? Mix that with 20 gallons of fuel what do you have, about 1.5% if my math is correct.

30+ years ago when GM learned that the Gov. mandated that alcohol be added to gasoline changed the rubber composition and other parts of their fuel systems to withstand the use of alcohol. GM did so could the small engine manufacturers of done that.

Back then GM said told the Gov that it's cars would have no problem with 10% ethanol but only could go to 5% methanol. Anything over 5% methanol would dissolve the TERN anti rust coating on the inside of the fuel tanks to prevent corrosion. Because the TERN coating contained lead and that lead would mix with the fuel eventually ruining the catalytic converters.

As to separation which you brought up first I say one can't be lazy and leave fuel in tanks to long or use stale fuel.

32vld
10-04-2012, 10:04 AM
The only further alcohol talking I will participate is about the kind Homer Simpson uses.

CL&T
10-04-2012, 10:29 AM
More to the point I really don't know why you seem to be pro ethanol. It does nothing except damage equipment and line the pockets of corn farmers and politicians. This is just another government program that benefits special interest groups at the expense of everybody else. Indirectly you even show that we would be better off with straight gas because of the problems ethanol causes.

kawakx125
10-04-2012, 10:35 AM
exactly my point, somebody is making money off of it. diesel, by all accounts, should be cheaper than gasoline regardless of how much we need. someone saw an increased demand and started jacking up prices, it's pretty simple given its very steep price increase in just the past 10 years. if you were to plot the price of diesel vs demand in the past 10 years, i'd almost guarantee that price is a much steeper graph. when diesel goes up everything else goes up too because they use diesel to stock your stores with everything.

CL&T
10-04-2012, 12:17 PM
Also don't forget that diesel is also #2 heating oil. Last winter was very mild in many parts of the country that use oil for heating so I'm not surprised that they want to recoup the loss. I also think the cost of #2 oil is even more unconscionable than diesel. At least truckers can jack up their prices to cover the increased cost of diesel. But here they have people over a barrel trying to heat their homes.

32vld
10-04-2012, 05:04 PM
More to the point I really don't know why you seem to be pro ethanol. It does nothing except damage equipment and line the pockets of corn farmers and politicians. This is just another government program that benefits special interest groups at the expense of everybody else. Indirectly you even show that we would be better off with straight gas because of the problems ethanol causes.

Not pro alcohol unless we are talking beverages though I am pro cleaner air. But agree that many laws only get passed to make special interests rich and gov. intrude into and control our personal lives.

The only damaged equipment comes form the small engine manufacturers that refuse to use upgrade the quality of the materials they choose to use in the manufacture of their products. And users of such equipment leaving gas in the carbs for extended time without running dry or starting them up once a month to get the stale gas out of the carb/fuel injector/fuel lines, as well as those that continue to use stale gas are equal to the blame. You know the ones that have gas sitting in a can since Nov and pick it up in April to use.

Alcohol in gasoline has not caused me fuel system problems.

Patriot Services
10-04-2012, 05:10 PM
Also don't forget that diesel is also #2 heating oil. Last winter was very mild in many parts of the country that use oil for heating so I'm not surprised that they want to recoup the loss. I also think the cost of #2 oil is even more unconscionable than diesel. At least truckers can jack up their prices to cover the increased cost of diesel. But here they have people over a barrel trying to heat their homes.

Partially correct. The largest reason diesel is more expensive is when they converted to ultra low sulphur. The added refining costs more.
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CL&T
10-04-2012, 05:30 PM
Partially correct. The largest reason diesel is more expensive is when they converted to ultra low sulphur. The added refining costs more.

Yes, I realize that. I have to laugh also after watching the debates last night. Does anyone realize that the government subsidizes the oil industry to the tune of billions of dollars when their profits are in the billions? What this country needs is regulation and price controls on diesel and gasoline like other countries that subsidize their oil industry. You want billions? Gasoline sells for $2 a gallon, diesel for $1.75 and can't be raised without approval. I'll tell you, if they did that it would jump start the economy almost overnight.

32vld
10-04-2012, 06:33 PM
I like my alcohol beverages in bottles. Can't stand the metallic taste that one gets from cans.

Color of the glass is secondary to me. I prefer green or clear glass bottles over brown colored glass bottles.

Won't touch no alcohol if it's in light beer bottle.

Then no alcohol from a box either. They can keep that wine in a box.