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View Full Version : Just about ready to put a class action lawsuit together against the goverment


White Gardens
11-21-2012, 12:37 AM
I purchased a Stihl SH85 earlier this summer.

Just crapped out on me the other day. My employee was using it and it just quit and locked up. Was able to get it free and start it, then it locked up again.

A couple of weeks ago, I took it to the dealer because of it running rough. Took the spark arrestor screen out and it was solid black with residue.

First thing the dealer asked. "Are you running high ethanol fuel?"

I proceeded to tell him that I run premium through it.

"You must also run it at full throttle all the time to keep the screen clear".

:hammerhead:

Then again today when I took it to the shop to have it looked at for warranty they asked what fuel I ran.

Looking at the the spark plug at a glance, it looks like it was running hot.

Small equipment should have these problems, especially related to fuel. I'm ready to sue the EPA and Whoever is in charge of forcing ethanol fuel down our throats. Not even sure if there is any gas stations locally that sell non-ethanol fuel.

So who is in? Anyone? Takes a group of people to start a class action suit.


.....

easy-lift guy
11-21-2012, 06:28 AM
You still have a choice by using non ethanol fuel in your state. If you have any Marinas
nearby you should be able to find your fuel type. If you decide to file your CA suit just remember the EPA is growing more powerful everyday and I suspect your suit would be shot down very fast by the Corn lobby. In the future having issues with ethanol fuel will not even be a foot note compared to what the EPA and CG have planned.
easy-lift guy

yardguy28
11-21-2012, 06:41 AM
leave me out of it.....at least for the 6 years I've been in business so far I run the cheapest grade fuel and up until 2 years the cheapest 2 cycle oil I could find.

I've never had a single fuel related issue.

now that has changed in the last couple of weeks since I bought my stihl br 600 magnum blower. for once I decided to read the manual and for once I've decided to follow it. so from here on out all handhelds will receive 89 instead of 87 fuel. and for the past 2 years they've been getting the gray bottles of stihl oil since that trimmer I bought requires it.

oh I also always run all handhelds at full throttle 90% of the time. the only time I throttle down is if I'm close to vehicles or working around loose debris such as stones. otherwise all trimming, edging and blowing is always done at full throttle.

RussellB
11-21-2012, 08:00 AM
I haven't had issues with any of my equipment.

herler
11-21-2012, 08:28 AM
Although it can be frustrating because this should have been done already but the carburetor probably needs to be adjusted.

White Gardens
11-21-2012, 08:44 AM
Although it can be frustrating because this should have been done already but the carburetor probably needs to be adjusted.

To hit on that note.

It's not like you can adjust it yourself. You've got to take it to a shop now and have them do it. Then it's more money and time away from your equipment.

I did find one local gas station that carries non-ethanol fuel. Looks like I'll be going there from now on to get gas for small equipment.

I've honestly never had any problems up until recently. My mini skid had gunk in the fuel line and plugged up a fuel filter that was 6 months old and hardly any hours.

Rotted fuel line on my snow blower, even after drained and run dry last season.

Then my hand-held blower craps out.

Just getting frustrating to say the least. More time and money coming out of our pockets in order to be in compliance.


.....

Smallaxe
11-21-2012, 10:26 AM
Sue the people that made the regulation about that stupid screen... if there is fire danger where you are working then common sense says, "don't work there", but our PC, dumbed down, undiscerning, ignorant masses are told that it will be fine IF you have the screen...
Good luck finding a lawyer to take the case... :)

Kkane97
11-21-2012, 12:54 PM
To hit on that note.

It's not like you can adjust it yourself. You've got to take it to a shop now and have them do it. Then it's more money and time away from your equipment.

I did find one local gas station that carries non-ethanol fuel. Looks like I'll be going there from now on to get gas for small equipment.

I've honestly never had any problems up until recently. My mini skid had gunk in the fuel line and plugged up a fuel filter that was 6 months old and hardly any hours.

Rotted fuel line on my snow blower, even after drained and run dry last season.

Then my hand-held blower craps out.

Just getting frustrating to say the least. More time and money coming out of our pockets in order to be in compliance.


.....

I went on amazon and got a huskqvarna,, carb adjustment tool for 5.10 shipped, best investment I made lol. Now I can adjust them to how ever I like on my own time. I can help you find your stihl one if you wish :waving:

jsslawncare
11-21-2012, 01:03 PM
I run 87 and what ever oil. I've never had a problem either and over half the time I'm at half throttle. 2 cycle oil use to be 30 wt ND oil too.

32vld
11-21-2012, 02:05 PM
I bought some new sthil equipment this year. Owner books say 89 octane to keep the engines running cooler and not over heat.

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
11-21-2012, 02:52 PM
Yeah I run 89 Octane at all times which is Mid grade with 10% ethanol and have never ever had a problem with my equipment ever, but I also run my fuel through my equipment constantly meaning nothing ever sits with fuel in it for very long.... So Idk if you could prove this point of the ethanol being the problem....

ed2hess
11-21-2012, 05:06 PM
Maybe you might want to consider Echo....their 2 stroke engines are still solid and with carb adjustments you can tune them for long life.

Kkane97
11-21-2012, 05:21 PM
My echo back pack, uses flat head screws to adjust :-D
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Paradise Yard Service
11-21-2012, 05:49 PM
So sorry to hear the new stuff is failing!

I am not convinced yet on the eth issue. Brazil is going strong with it, they make the best ethanol (all from sugercane). Hawaii can do the same, and it would revive a dead industry. Ethanol is a renewable resource.

All my equipment has been here in Califrisco...Lawnboy, HRC, Shin Blower, Kawi trimmer/hedge trimmer, and this little bitty...my favorite saw (two pulls...one pop, and away she goes). All of my toys have been on the Cali Ethanol 10% for past ten years. No rot to speak of.

I clean my stuff regularly no gum in carb/spark/muff. This is why I am just dumbfounded by what we see as legitimate claims of new equipment failing.

Again sorry to hear this...hope you get solution.

White Gardens
11-21-2012, 08:34 PM
Busted out the old-school John Deere 2E hand held blower today to use while my stihl is getting looked at for warranty claim.

Basically the yellow and black version of the PB210.

http://www.echo.ca/old_site/main/echowebsite/PRODUCTS/power_blowers/media_powerblowers/PB210large.jpg

Took the carb out, shot it with carb cleaner, put it back together, two pulls and it fired right off. Started easier than any other piece of newer equipment I have.


.....

White Gardens
11-21-2012, 08:43 PM
Sue the people that made the regulation about that stupid screen... if there is fire danger where you are working then common sense says, "don't work there", but our PC, dumbed down, undiscerning, ignorant masses are told that it will be fine IF you have the screen...
Good luck finding a lawyer to take the case... :)

Taking a risk of incriminating myself, I think the screen, at least on my my SH85 is coming out.

I really feel the issues with my SH started when the screen started to get clogged. And on top of it, it's not like my FS90 where it's just a flat peice of screen, or my TS400 that has the external screen. It's a stupid barrel shaped design with a tighter screen that I feel trapped any soot from the exhaust and started the over-heating issue.

..

adam.neusbaum
11-24-2012, 06:17 PM
I bought some new sthil equipment this year. Owner books say 89 octane to keep the engines running cooler and not over heat.

I didn't know there was a combustion temperature difference between 2 cycle oils. Years ago I tried going super-cheap & used Outboard Engine oil & over time my Husq edgers plastic engine housing started to melt & droop. Outboard burns at 180 degrees or something like that.

CL&T
11-25-2012, 02:05 AM
Just wait until it goes to E15 and we'll see if you guys who say you have no problems are still smiling. I find that the older stuff has fewer problems with ethanol than the new stuff. I have a generator that is probably 30 years old with a B&S 8 hp engine that always starts on the first pull. Other than running the carb dry when I store it it has never been serviced except for oil changes. With newer stuff I find that if you run it every day you have fewer problems from ethanol. Let it sit for just a few days a week and that's when the problems start. So you guys that claim no problems have you been running it every day?

If you are skeptical about ethanol just do some Googling on the harmful effects of ethanol. There is much, much more evidance than presented here and also how it's a complete sham.

yardguy28
11-25-2012, 09:18 AM
Just wait until it goes to E15 and we'll see if you guys who say you have no problems are still smiling. I find that the older stuff has fewer problems with ethanol than the new stuff. I have a generator that is probably 30 years old with a B&S 8 hp engine that always starts on the first pull. Other than running the carb dry when I store it it has never been serviced except for oil changes. With newer stuff I find that if you run it every day you have fewer problems from ethanol. Let it sit for just a few days a week and that's when the problems start. So you guys that claim no problems have you been running it every day?

If you are skeptical about ethanol just do some Googling on the harmful effects of ethanol. There is much, much more evidance than presented here and also how it's a complete sham.

I run my equipment 4-5 days out of the week and have never had a problem.

as for googling ethanol, that still doesn't convince me. I go by what I have experienced not by what some website or book tells me.

adam.neusbaum
11-25-2012, 10:17 AM
I run my equipment 4-5 days out of the week and have never had a problem.

as for googling ethanol, that still doesn't convince me. I go by what I have experienced not by what some website or book tells me.

Then we'll trust that you'll never ask anyone's opionion here on Lawnsite?
Reviews aren't there to convince anyone but rather a personal experience shared with the public. Your review of ethanol is obviously a positive one, unfortunately many others haven't been so fortunate. Let's remember that a suggestion to Google something is as it were 30 years back when we'd suggest you "Go to the library then" if you don't trust my personal opinion where you'll find a MULTITUDE of research options & not just a singular source. My advice (take it or not) be happy you aren't having to drive out of your way to fill up 30 gallon containers of ethanol free fuel @ $4.35/gallon each week & have some sympathy on the rest of us that do. For everyone else's benefit I'll post some very interesting youtube links hereafter.

adam.neusbaum
11-25-2012, 10:21 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3Tnx1HSRQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tCp_sEAQSo

And the list goes on & on & on, oh like GOOGLE.

Duekster
11-25-2012, 10:33 AM
Someone told me Stihl check gas stations around Austin Texas and they found more than 10% at many stations.

The Gray bottles of Stihl oil has a fuel conditioner in it.

I may have to go that route if Amsoil does not start doing this too.

yardguy28
11-25-2012, 07:01 PM
Then we'll trust that you'll never ask anyone's opionion here on Lawnsite?
Reviews aren't there to convince anyone but rather a personal experience shared with the public. Your review of ethanol is obviously a positive one, unfortunately many others haven't been so fortunate. Let's remember that a suggestion to Google something is as it were 30 years back when we'd suggest you "Go to the library then" if you don't trust my personal opinion where you'll find a MULTITUDE of research options & not just a singular source. My advice (take it or not) be happy you aren't having to drive out of your way to fill up 30 gallon containers of ethanol free fuel @ $4.35/gallon each week & have some sympathy on the rest of us that do. For everyone else's benefit I'll post some very interesting youtube links hereafter.

I was actually referring to the post I quoted that suggested if we are skeptical about the ethanol to google it like that will make me not skeptical.

also the thread is about suing the gov over ethanol. I'm not on board with that either.

just stating my opinion like all the others.

adam.neusbaum
11-25-2012, 08:07 PM
Ok so here it goes: Personally, I've always had a buried passion for writing. I loved Creative writing class in gradeschool but despised "school" itself. So while we here at Lawnsite and many other forums I would suppose may continually seem as though we're seeking an opportunity to pipe-in with our opinion, it might just be we're simply wanting a chance to exercise our sentence structure & grammar skills. Just as the teacher instructed I always take the time to re-read it entirely before submitting & also because I never want to sound aggressive. So in short, thank you. Adam
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NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
11-25-2012, 09:41 PM
I also think 99% of the problems associated with ethanol has to do with the fuel sitting in a machine that's not being used regularly, which I for 1 never have this problem because of regular use on a consistent basis, I may have a chain saw or tiller that doesn't get used all the time that I pour out the the gas when I know I'm not going to use again for awhile, but I can say in the last 5 years the only problem I've had that may or may not be ethanol related is a small pin hole in a primer bulb and that the only problem I've had period...

CL&T
11-26-2012, 12:36 AM
... also the thread is about suing the gov over ethanol. I'm not on board with that either.

I would be on board with it and also abolishing the EPA but I believe the ethanol issue has already been tried. Basically who did you think congress sided with? The guys who cut grass or the lobbyist from the corn cartel who drops a check for a million dollars on their desk every year?

I think the only way we are going to solve this is if we convince some gas stations to put in a E0 (ethanol free) pump. Doesn't have to be every gas station, just so there is one within a reasonable distance from each of us.

yardguy28
11-26-2012, 08:39 AM
I would be on board with it and also abolishing the EPA but I believe the ethanol issue has already been tried. Basically who did you think congress sided with? The guys who cut grass or the lobbyist from the corn cartel who drops a check for a million dollars on their desk every year?

I think the only way we are going to solve this is if we convince some gas stations to put in a E0 (ethanol free) pump. Doesn't have to be every gas station, just so there is one within a reasonable distance from each of us.

I'm not on board for 2 major reasons. one being I've never had any issues with equipment or vehicles that were fuel related due to the ethanol let alone fuel related at all.

secondly I don't vote and you know what they say about people who don't vote, don't complain about the way things are run. so I don't.

CL&T
11-27-2012, 01:13 AM
It wouldn't matter if you did vote because both candidates in this election agree on the current use and expansion of "alternate fuels". Even if you don't agree that ethanol causes problems with small engines you could still agree that ethanol use in this country is a total hoax to make the American people think we are using 10% less foreign oil while nothing could be farther from the truth. The only thing ethanol use does is put money into the pockets of the corn farmers while costing us more. In fact, the production of ethanol actually uses more fossel fuel than it saves. This whole thing was started by idiot Bush when he visited Brazil. Unfortunately Brazil is not the US in terms of climate. Brazil is tropical and can produce ethanol from several crops year round. We can't. Matter of fact if we were to change over to E85 for all vehicles we would never be able to produce enough ethanol to sustain the demand. We would have to import ethanol instead of oil.:hammerhead:

yardguy28
11-27-2012, 06:35 PM
It wouldn't matter if you did vote because both candidates in this election agree on the current use and expansion of "alternate fuels". Even if you don't agree that ethanol causes problems with small engines you could still agree that ethanol use in this country is a total hoax to make the American people think we are using 10% less foreign oil while nothing could be farther from the truth. The only thing ethanol use does is put money into the pockets of the corn farmers while costing us more. In fact, the production of ethanol actually uses more fossel fuel than it saves. This whole thing was started by idiot Bush when he visited Brazil. Unfortunately Brazil is not the US in terms of climate. Brazil is tropical and can produce ethanol from several crops year round. We can't. Matter of fact if we were to change over to E85 for all vehicles we would never be able to produce enough ethanol to sustain the demand. We would have to import ethanol instead of oil.:hammerhead:

part of the reason i don't vote is because i don't pay attention to whats going on in the world. so i can't agree or disagree ethanol use is a hoax.

CL&T
11-27-2012, 06:51 PM
Well then after reading this consider yourself educated. :)

RussellB
11-27-2012, 06:54 PM
Wonder why some people have problems with ethanol and others don't. I have never had issues with any of my lawn equipment, chain saws, cars, trucks or ATVs. Heck the ATVs sit six months at time with ethanol gas in them and crank right up and run great.

hackitdown
11-27-2012, 07:30 PM
Wonder why some people have problems with ethanol and others don't. I have never had issues with any of my lawn equipment, chain saws, cars, trucks or ATVs. Heck the ATVs sit six months at time with ethanol gas in them and crank right up and run great.

I have had problems starting equipment with stale gas. And some machines do a "surge idle" thing after they have been sitting. I have just assumed it was because of ethanol. Usually that is the common wisdom. But I have no actual proof.

It does seem like carburetors and ethanol don't work together well. Fuel injected machines seem to be ok. Maybe we need a Mythbusters episode to clarify.

The USA's ethanol/corn plan does seem to be wasteful and a failed policy, based on my limited research. It seemed like a good idea to me at the time, but now...not so much. Considering the way that the federal government is pushing fracking and natural gas production so hard, maybe natural gas will be the new replacement for ethanol. I read this week that fleets are fueling small truck with natural gas at 1/2 the price of gasoline. People who heat their homes with natural gas are doing ok, too.

White Gardens
11-27-2012, 07:43 PM
It does seem like carburetors and ethanol don't work together well. Fuel injected machines seem to be ok. Maybe we need a Mythbusters episode to clarify.


Funny you mentioned that.

Was at my dealer today to get my replacement blower. Status was a cracked block. Sthil couldn't verify why it happened, so they just replaced it. The mechanic says he thinks that it ran hot from the ethanol fuel.

While I was there, he said he wouldn't be surprised if all equipment goes to an injection style system.

Called around today, and the only gas station locally that was carrying non-ethanol fuel states that they don't carry it anymore. Their supplier started showing up with ethanol fuel and there was nothing they could do about it.


.....

andyslawncare
11-27-2012, 07:46 PM
I have the same problems. Run mid grade and take good care of equip, but still am always removing and cleaning carburators. There is only 1 non-ethonol fuel station along my route, and thats not frequent enough passing to last inbetween.

Im in, start a petition.

yardguy28
11-27-2012, 08:52 PM
if ethanol were THAT bad you'd think more people would have be having problems.

until a few weeks ago I have used nothing but 87 octane in anything I own or use that requires fuel. never have had a single fuel related problem with anything.

in fact I can't think of a single person I know that uses anything but 87 octane for anything.

CL&T
11-28-2012, 01:23 AM
Called around today, and the only gas station locally that was carrying non-ethanol fuel states that they don't carry it anymore. Their supplier started showing up with ethanol fuel and there was nothing they could do about it.

Check out the fuel suppliers like Warex or Suncoast. They will deliver anything you order. Unless the guy was a branded station like Mobil or Sunoco I think he is giving you BS. Most likely he stopped selling it because non-ethanol costs him 10-15 cents more per gallon. If it was a premium octane I doubt everyday motorists were buying it so he just wasn't making any money off it.

Duekster
11-28-2012, 07:09 AM
Honda says fuel can start to go bad in as little as 15 days.

http://engines.honda.com/parts-and-support/fuel-recommendations#fuelissues

STIHL recommends storing a 2-cycle fuel mixture prepared using E10 fuel for no more than 30 days in order to minimize phase separation. In this context, "phase separation" means: the ethanol absorbs moisture from the air and settles to the bottom of the canister. This can cause engines to run roughly or not at all. Phase separated fuel is no longer suitable for use even after being shaken vigorously.

http://www.stihl.com/e10-gasohol-ethanolgasoline-fuel-mixture.aspx

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/

yardguy28
11-28-2012, 06:31 PM
Honda says fuel can start to go bad in as little as 15 days.

http://engines.honda.com/parts-and-support/fuel-recommendations#fuelissues

STIHL recommends storing a 2-cycle fuel mixture prepared using E10 fuel for no more than 30 days in order to minimize phase separation. In this context, "phase separation" means: the ethanol absorbs moisture from the air and settles to the bottom of the canister. This can cause engines to run roughly or not at all. Phase separated fuel is no longer suitable for use even after being shaken vigorously.

http://www.stihl.com/e10-gasohol-ethanolgasoline-fuel-mixture.aspx

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/

thats all fine and dandy but explain to me why for at least the 6 years i've been in business (i say that because i did have stihl handhelds prior to starting my business) i've used 87 octane gas mixed with the cheapest oil i could find.

now i will say for the past 2 years my stihl equipment has been receiving the gray stihl bottles per the trimmer i purchased at that time and for the past 2 weeks i've been running 89 octane in them per the new br600 blower i purchased a couple of weeks ago but before that nothing but 87 octane and cheap oil.

not a single issue with any of my stihl equipment. in fact my br400 (it's like 6 to 7+ years old) still starts on the first pull.

so i've experienced a different outcome than what the manuals say will happen in the 6+ years i've been using stihl equipment. which gives me no real reason to change what i'm doing just because a manual and the manufacturer says to.

CL&T
11-28-2012, 06:46 PM
Gee, it's funny how even manufacturers give advice and you dispute it. You sound like a smoker who says all that stuff from doctors and people with lung cancer must be baloney because I don't have any problems.

Richard Martin
11-28-2012, 07:46 PM
Although it can be frustrating because this should have been done already but the carburetor probably needs to be adjusted.

Good luck adjusting a Stihl carb. Some of them still have adjustment screws but most don't.

yardguy28
11-28-2012, 08:45 PM
Gee, it's funny how even manufacturers give advice and you dispute it. You sound like a smoker who says all that stuff from doctors and people with lung cancer must be baloney because I don't have any problems.

no but I tend to trust what I've personally experienced over what a manual says.

if what they print in there manual where that critical don't you think I would have had problems? why have I not had problems? I don't do anything special with my equipment.

Duekster
11-28-2012, 08:50 PM
thats all fine and dandy but explain to me why for at least the 6 years i've been in business (i say that because i did have stihl handhelds prior to starting my business) i've used 87 octane gas mixed with the cheapest oil i could find.

now i will say for the past 2 years my stihl equipment has been receiving the gray stihl bottles per the trimmer i purchased at that time and for the past 2 weeks i've been running 89 octane in them per the new br600 blower i purchased a couple of weeks ago but before that nothing but 87 octane and cheap oil.

not a single issue with any of my stihl equipment. in fact my br400 (it's like 6 to 7+ years old) still starts on the first pull.

so i've experienced a different outcome than what the manuals say will happen in the 6+ years i've been using stihl equipment. which gives me no real reason to change what i'm doing just because a manual and the manufacturer says to.

The Gray bottles have a fuel stabilizer and you use the fuel purchased quickly