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Smallaxe
12-06-2012, 11:42 AM
In a similar vein as Riggle's seeding of April 26,,, I've started the Dormant Seeding process in earnest now that we have a high frequency of the freeze/thaw cycle and a chance of snow cover this weekend...

Smallaxe
12-06-2012, 11:49 AM
I shot a dozen different photos in several different lawns but I end up with very little in the way of consistantly 'clear shots'... I can't always hold the camera still as I pull the trigger on it...

This is a good sample in that the aeration holes give a good indication of size and scope and the rough looking surface is due to freeze/thaw cycle... If anyone has photos of the 'Pimpley Ground' that occurs in the freeze/thaw routine plz post here, in case I don't get good shots of it...
This ground was an excellent example of it, before the rain hit, but I added seed and we'll see what happens to it next...

Anyone have any ideas??? :)

greenstar lawn
12-06-2012, 11:56 AM
When was this seed put down? What blend did you use?

I did aeration and dormant seeding here in s/e mich for the first time. Usually do it first week of October. My fert guy recommended that I do this since he says he has great results. I did it around Nov 12. He says he always freezes his grass seed
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Smallaxe
12-06-2012, 12:19 PM
When was this seed put down? What blend did you use?

I did aeration and dormant seeding here in s/e mich for the first time. Usually do it first week of October. My fert guy recommended that I do this since he says he has great results. I did it around Nov 12. He says he always freezes his grass seed
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I've been putting seed down in various locations since the beginning of November whenever I come across bare spots... the seed here looks like a recent application, just before/after the rains came in...
The blend is a typical Shady Mix from Jay-Mar and is made up of a couple types of Fescue, KBG and Per. Ryegrass...

I remember one lady's lawn that she said was put in by her parents and neighbors which was brand new,,, tilled, ammended and leveled bare soil... it was seeded on Nov. 10th a lot of years ago... one of the best lawns that I have ever had the pleasure of caring for... in fact it would probably be a great example of a 'mature lawn'...

good luck with your venture... :)

RigglePLC
12-06-2012, 06:11 PM
Nice shot, Ax. This should be interesting. I have some seed I applied November 17, 2012. Looks about the same. I used 3 ounces seed on one square yard, just over 20 lbs per sqft. Seed was Scotts perennial rye. Neglected, lawn with no irrigation. Had lots of weeds and crabgrass. No soil preparation at all. Light rains. Temp 39 degrees at the moment. Also same seed sown in a cup outdoors plunged into the soil. So far, no sign of germination. Inside--same seed...germinated and about 4 inches tall at the maximum.
I will probably sow more seed in the months ahead--probably on top of snow.

Smallaxe
12-07-2012, 10:34 AM
I'm hoping to get out there and get some shots of the tiny volcanoes formed by freeze/thaw working the seed into the soil, tomorrow... our snow chances have been reduced to 5 hours overnite, tonite...

One thing about next Spring's Germination, it will be easy to tell the regular Fall plantingfrom the dormant seeding because our regular seeding has already matured enough to see that it is older...

Smallaxe
12-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Here we have a couple of shots that shows the pimply ground starting to swallow the seed during the freeze/thaw cycle...

AI Inc
12-11-2012, 11:54 AM
Seems like a lot of moss there. Is that lack of sun ?

Smallaxe
12-11-2012, 12:06 PM
Almost all of my lawns are shaded and moss will grow in the barespots,,, so having the seed plant itself makes it nice... :)

jbell36
12-11-2012, 10:50 PM
subscribed...i never thought of the freeze/thaw "pimples" when dormant seeding, as i have never done it, but i know exactly what you are talking about now that i think about it...this is very interesting small axe, i want to see the results in late winter/early spring already...

RigglePLC
12-11-2012, 11:03 PM
Good shot of the pimply freeze-thaw ground, Ax.
Now can you drop a tiny light down into one of those aeration holes and tell us if the seed is germinating down there? The deeper soil must remain warmer...right?

No germination around here from similar seed sown on November 17, ( except the sample planted inside). Not much rain; about 32 today. About a half inch of snow fell, which melted in a few hours.
Oddly enough, my neighbor, (whose new lawn failed due to heat and drought) planted some seed on his weedy failed lawn about 30 days ago. Pennington seed. It was about an inch high today.

Smallaxe
12-12-2012, 09:16 AM
Thanks,,, I'm glad I got those pictures when I did and I'm glad they turned out as well as they did... I figured that once everyone saw what was happening, they'd identify it at once...

I'm anticipating that by Spring those aeration holes will be leveled off by the constant heaving under the snow and the seed will not be visible at all... right now the seed is covered by at least 4" of snow, which is a big relief... no chance of germination in the base of those aeration holes... too dry... :)

dKoester
12-12-2012, 12:42 PM
This experiment is very useful. Thanks for the pics.

greenstar lawn
12-12-2012, 03:15 PM
I planted this grass seed from jdl about 7 weeks ago and the area was bare and flat. I also already mowed it 2 weeks ago and you can see the little bubbles in the soil. Seed came in pretty good to and I never wagered it either.

Smallaxe
12-13-2012, 10:16 AM
Throw some seed on those pimpled/pitted bare spots now for the Winter and by Spring it should be all filled in... :)

RigglePLC
12-17-2012, 03:07 PM
Amazing. I checked the seed I planted outdoors in a cup which was plunged into the soil in a garden. Today after 30 days--I can see a tiny sprout or two--about an eighth of an inch tall. Weather has been warmer than normal--daily high temps in the 40's.

americanlawn
12-17-2012, 06:47 PM
http://www.iaturf.blogspot.com/2012_09_01_archive.html

Smallaxe
12-18-2012, 08:21 PM
Let's not get distracted by the thoughts of seed germinating in the current "Fall" season of the year planted/sowed...

The seed in the pictures with this particular climate is merely being "Planted" by the pimpling soil...
[/b]Soil Contact[/b] is occuring via the Feeze/Thaw cycle of bare soil areas of the lawn...

The significant impact of this process,,, IS,,, No need to break up the surface of the soil b4 placing the seed down...

Hopefully, there will be some cold frame pix to follow... :)

Smallaxe
12-20-2012, 11:35 AM
We had another snow event coming up,,, so yesterday I walked around a large section of woods and tossed seed where I see there was none...

I noticed from the previous freeze/thaw plus rain/snow that the seed was still visible on the surfae of the ground...possibly as much as 85%... but,,, that is the hard surface ground...
Soils that still had a more open structure really "heaved", with the freeze/thaw and those pimply bumps swallowed up the seed to a point of,,, maybe 15% remaining visible... In fact,,, some areas I initially thought I'd missed...

This 'open soil structure' allowed more water to soak into the surface,,, which in turn created more ice crystals in the soil and thereby moving more soil particles,,, creating an even more open structure...

Now it's all under snow again so we wait to see about germination in Mar/Apr...
Can't wait... :)

RigglePLC
12-20-2012, 05:10 PM
Well now I have 4 tiny one-eighth inch sprouts from Scotts perennial ryegrass planted on November 17, 33 days ago. Temp is 43 today, and snow expected. Seed was planted in plastic cups and plunged into the soil in a garden, outside.

So far no sprouts were visible where the same seed was planted November 17, 2012 on a weedy neglected lawn (no soil preparation).

On Sept 24th, my new north side immigrant neighbors a couple of blocks away in their back yard at their new construction house...rototilled and planted Scotts Quick Repair (which is high in Gulf annual rye) which was mixed with Vigro TTTF mixture, (which unfortunately, listed weed seed as 9 annual bluegrass per pound). It was somewhat green by october 19. Today after 88 days--it looks fairly green and fairly good, at least from a distance Not sure--it may have been mowed for the first time. They used sod for the front yard--looks good. Sod came from AAA Turf in Hudsonville.

mikesturf
12-20-2012, 09:54 PM
We had another snow event coming up,,, so yesterday I walked around a large section of woods and tossed seed where I see there was none...

I noticed from the previous freeze/thaw plus rain/snow that the seed was still visible on the surfae of the ground...possibly as much as 85%... but,,, that is the hard surface ground...
Soils that still had a more open structure really "heaved", with the freeze/thaw and those pimply bumps swallowed up the seed to a point of,,, maybe 15% remaining visible... In fact,,, some areas I initially thought I'd missed...

This 'open soil structure' allowed more water to soak into the surface,,, which in turn created more ice crystals in the soil and thereby moving more soil particles,,, creating an even more open structure...

Now it's all under snow again so we wait to see about germination in Mar/Apr...
Can't wait... :)

I just spent the weekend at the Wisconsin Dells (is that near you?). From watching the weather you are getting over a foot of snow with blizzard conditions!

Thanks for starting this thread. I've been thinking of dormant seeding, but your thread is getting me into action. I'm going to buy some seed and spread it on some lawns that got some severe drought/sod webworm damage this year and see what happens in the spring.

Smallaxe
12-21-2012, 04:44 PM
WI Dells is about 2 hrs South from my location... we didn't get the 12" in all locations in that rain began to mix in and 'settle' the volume down to 8" in areas near the water... heavy and wet this morning... I took a nap after cleanup...

Good Luck with the dormant seeding...

For the past several years I'e done more and more dormant seeding and results were variable, but after the great success of last Spring I went all out this year... it is under a lot of snow and slush right now so all I can do at this point,,, is wait... :)

suzook
12-21-2012, 06:43 PM
Dormant seeding sounds great, but putting down pre m in march will just prevent it germinating...no???

Smallaxe
12-21-2012, 07:45 PM
With cool season grasses starting up that early in the Spring, you can easily NOT pre-m it until after it is large enough to endure...
My experience last year was that the new grass was green almost before the ground was actually warmed...
(I'm thinking it may be possible that the seed germinates under the snow and it is actually the embryo in suspended animation so it is ready to emerge before you would want to apply pre-m...)

This reminds me...
For the cold frame test I want to do,,, I need a good soil thermometer, that I can poke into the ground and leave it so that when at any time I chose to snap a photo it is reading what the current soil temp is...
Does anyone have any good recommendations??? Niether of our 2 best nurseries carry anything of the sort...

RigglePLC
12-21-2012, 09:04 PM
That is a toughie, AX. I use an auto air conditioner metal stem dial thermometer, available for $5 at any auto parts store. Perfect for soil temps...but...the numbers are too small for photography.

I also have a wireless thermometer on the porch, which reads out by radio signal to a little LCD screen on my desk. But it takes batteries and I am not sure the moisture, the batteries, and the radio signal under the soil would work satisfactory.

I have another one that sticks to my window with an LCD readout...numbers big enough...but probably not suitable to bury.
Good question, is your soil not frozen, under the snow? Will the temp rise due to the insulating effect of the snow--assuming the deeper soil is warmer?
Very windy here, but only about an inch of snow fell.
I have about 4 tiny sprouts from perennial rye seed I planted in a cup plunged into the soil on November 17th. Air temp is 33 tonight.

Smallaxe
12-22-2012, 09:55 AM
That is a toughie, AX. I use an auto air conditioner metal stem dial thermometer, available for $5 at any auto parts store. Perfect for soil temps...but...the numbers are too small for photography.

I also have a wireless thermometer on the porch, which reads out by radio signal to a little LCD screen on my desk. But it takes batteries and I am not sure the moisture, the batteries, and the radio signal under the soil would work satisfactory.

I have another one that sticks to my window with an LCD readout...numbers big enough...but probably not suitable to bury.
Good question, is your soil not frozen, under the snow? Will the temp rise due to the insulating effect of the snow--assuming the deeper soil is warmer?
Very windy here, but only about an inch of snow fell.
I have about 4 tiny sprouts from perennial rye seed I planted in a cup plunged into the soil on November 17th. Air temp is 33 tonight.

If they don't make actual soil thermometers I'll check into that air conditioner... thanks...
The soil is or was frozen before the snow , but many areas will actually thaw under the snow... the frost was less than 4" deep in most areas...
Nevertheless, where I'll be placing the thermometer will be in the soil outside around the foundation planting of the house... It will be protected by what most people call a 'porch',,, gardeners call a 'cold frame'... that will freeze and thaw quite often during the season...

I doubt we've had anything germinate since Nov. 17th... Good job observing your side of the Lake... Do you expect your P. Rye Sprouts to survive the winter??? My guess is that those tiny sprouts have roots all the way to the bottom of the cup already...
I understand you guys got mostly rain from Blizzard 'Brianna'...

mikesturf
12-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Dormant seeding sounds great, but putting down pre m in march will just prevent it germinating...no???

As an experiment, I have not put down a pre emergent on my lawn for 4 years and I have had no crabgrass. I've also done this on a few dozen of my customer's back yards who have dogs and want to add seed every spring in bare spots-never had crab grass. In my area (Chicago suburbs), it seems that only the parkway area and along the driveway needs pre-m. I've seen foreclosed homes that have not had any lawn fert service for a few years and I have seen crabgrass. But those lawns are very thin to begin with. Give a lawn a quality fertilization program along with having them mow no shorter than 3" and you will need less and less pesticides (no I'm not a tree hugger, just looking to use less chemicals and save money).

I'm most worried about the new seedlings lasting throughout the summer if we have another drought.

Smallaxe
12-26-2012, 09:47 AM
As an experiment, I have not put down a pre emergent on my lawn for 4 years and I have had no crabgrass. I've also done this on a few dozen of my customer's back yards who have dogs and want to add seed every spring in bare spots-never had crab grass. In my area (Chicago suburbs), it seems that only the parkway area and along the driveway needs pre-m. I've seen foreclosed homes that have not had any lawn fert service for a few years and I have seen crabgrass. But those lawns are very thin to begin with. Give a lawn a quality fertilization program along with having them mow no shorter than 3" and you will need less and less pesticides (no I'm not a tree hugger, just looking to use less chemicals and save money).

I'm most worried about the new seedlings lasting throughout the summer if we have another drought.

That should become another thread, about getting the turf healthy and thick enough to NOT require any kind of pre-M, every Spring...

One section of one lawn was neglected by the client during the drought this season... a lot of the turf actually died and the CG 'recaptured' this particular area... Several years ago CG was prolific in that area... I did an early Spring seeding while freeze/thaw was stilltaking place and the dead bodies of the CG was used for cover... it grew up thick enough that there was no longer CG there, UNTIL this year...

I realize that the Squirt&Fert guys need to do the pre-M all the time to make the money,,, like TGCL... I have never limitted myself to ONLY one aspect of the business so I don't think about just killing weeds but rather devote most of my energy to growing grass... The lawns in which the client believes in TGCL(or the wannabees) do not get much improvement and I really don't bother with those lawns much any more...
So I can see why many LCO's are reluctant to attempt any sort of lawn improvement...
One might put a newly seeded lawn toward the end of the rotation, thereby giving it a chance to establish before the root inhibitor is put down on it...

The great advantage of Dormant Seeding is that it can only improve the situation...it requires no machines to plant,,, no dethatching,,, no aeration,,, no slit-seeders,,, no fertilizers,,, no herbicides... just toss the seed in areas of bare soil or even amongst the dead bodies of Fall killed weeds... :)

Smallaxe
12-26-2012, 09:55 AM
Obviously another drought and subsequent neglect by the H.O. can eliminate the seedlings,,, but at least the grass was there and had a chance... this past drought killed the seed that was successfully growing in Sept of 2011, becuz this h.o. didn't take care of it correctly either...

RigglePLC
12-26-2012, 11:15 PM
Perennial ryegrass was planted in a cup planted outdoors, plunged into the soil, on November 17. Temps since then have fallen from about 45 as a daily high to about 35 as a daily high. Seedling sprouts are now about 1/8 inch tall. Grand Rapids is probably warmer than your town, Ax. Snowing hard today.
Specific weather data, and daily temps:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KGRR/2012/12/3/MonthlyHistory.html

Smallaxe
12-27-2012, 09:26 AM
Perennial ryegrass was planted in a cup planted outdoors, plunged into the soil, on November 17. Temps since then have fallen from about 45 as a daily high to about 35 as a daily high. Seedling sprouts are now about 1/8 inch tall. Grand Rapids is probably warmer than your town, Ax. Snowing hard today.
Specific weather data, and daily temps:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KGRR/2012/12/3/MonthlyHistory.html

We had our snow last Wednesday/Thursday and finally stopped on Friday,,, did the cleanup and been sick and in the house ever since...
The ground was well frozen, before the snow and there was ice forming under it(periods of rain occurred during the storm), but I expect that,,, in many places the ground is thawing out in that actual snow cover remains around 8" deep...

The grasses that germinated before the ground froze are certainly well protected and moisturized... the seed that was sitting on the surface should not have moved around much, rather a continual connection to soil particles should be building as the moisture melts out of the snow and soaks into the thawing ground...

Our air tempuratures out in the natural world(away from heat islands) have not been above 25 degrees since the snow came...

Will the grass in your cups remain under the snow for the duration or will the snow likely be gone in a couple of weeks???
Did you ever check to see what the roots looked like at 1/8th inch green growth???

I saw your storm on the national map and I'm glad we're on the outside edge of it... :)

Smallaxe
01-21-2013, 11:57 AM
Here we have an indoor seed bed from a couple of different charcoal mixes...
The first picture actually has seed floating in standing water becuz these peat pots are currently frozen solid...
My ambition for these photos , is to observe the freeze/thaw effect when the weather starts to warm a bit...
This porch area can be 10 -15 degrees warmer than the outside temps, so it might be a while before we see what happens with the seed, when the process starts...

grassman177
01-21-2013, 02:08 PM
i really like your thread, if i was a facebook user, then i would "like" lol

RigglePLC
01-21-2013, 07:04 PM
Good plan, Ax; this should be interesting. So this seed was planted this week? And kept outside in a semi-protected location.

My plastic cups planted with perennial rye and plunged into the soil on November 17, 2012, remained snow free for most of December, and managed to grow to about a half inch tall. Now it has snowed and turned cold--a low of 4 degrees expected.

SmartLawnCare
01-21-2013, 07:39 PM
Nice thread! I am concerned about Perennial Rye/Tall Fescue seeding done October 22 (NE Ohio). We've had a mild winter and last week one of my tech's said he saw new grass coming up all over about 1" high. Now we are going to have true winter weather. Will the new grass make it? I doubt it. Should we go over it with more seed? Had about 1" of snow today, temps between 10-20 for the week.

PS My dad would always put grass seed in the freezer before he planted it and it worked!

RigglePLC
01-21-2013, 08:34 PM
I think the new ryegrass will be mostly OK; the gradual cooling off is better than sudden cold; a bit of snow will protect it to some degree.
Let us know what happens, OK?

In fact--good question--how much will snow protect it? What is you soil temperature? Is the soil temp higher under the snow? Under thick turf? Does any warmth come up from the deeper layers of earth?

cpllawncare
01-21-2013, 10:04 PM
I'm going to take it from reading this thread that seeding with tall fescue now will yield good results come March April? I'm in the deep south.

Smallaxe
01-22-2013, 09:59 AM
Regular Perennial Cool-Season grasses should not be subject to winterkill even if newly germinated... What does happenis that when the snow is gone and the days warm up and the nites continue to freeze the 'green leaves' do dry up and turn brown...

That is true of even the mature grasses... the baby grasses should survive the same way, if they've already germinated... as long as there is still adequate moisture in the frozen soil as it thaws...
That, however is ONLY my belief and can not say for sure that baby grasses germinated in early Winter will survive to the end of Spring...

One thing I have noticed when germinating seed in my garden years back was that when the grass was 1" tall, the root I pulled up was about 4" long...

Smallaxe
01-22-2013, 10:13 AM
I'm going to take it from reading this thread that seeding with tall fescue now will yield good results come March April? I'm in the deep south.

Fescue should germinate and grow, once the 'soil temps' are around 50 degrees...

What I'm hoping to observe first hand is the seed planting itself and germinating quickly as the freeze/thaw cycle begins... does the soil in your part of the world, ever freeze solid??? :)

Crimson Lawn
01-22-2013, 10:50 AM
Good Thread.
We have been dormant seeding here for few years with good results.

cpllawncare
01-22-2013, 11:04 AM
Axe,

Rarely do we get a deep freeze, we avg about 50-60 air temp we're getting ready to go into the coldest part of the year for us late jan -feb, this is why I was asking we'll probably stay in the 30's and 40's for the next month or so, but I have two customers that want to overseed with Tall Fescue, I was advising them to wait a few weeks? Sounds like I would be safe to go ahead?

RigglePLC
01-22-2013, 11:46 AM
I cannot advise you on tall fescue. Most grass seed will remain dormant when it is too cold, although they may absorb water. I feel that they will begin to grow--but slowly--in the spring when soil temps hit the proper range, rather like what happens in nature. My opinion, is that a dry spell just after seedling emergence, is the biggest risk.
In my experiments on new rye seedlings placed into freezers...I saw that the area of rapid growth about a half-inch above the soil was most affected. That area turned brown and new grass bent over at the half-inch point.

Smallaxe
01-22-2013, 11:54 AM
I remember when I first started out, there was this idea that if the seed was put in the ground too early in the Spring that it would 'rot' before it got warm enough to germinate... that turns out to be absolute nonsense... I believe now that there is never a bad time to put down seed...

The seed needs to acclimate to the soil and soil conditions so that when the time is right it germinates on time... When you wait for the time to be right before you put the seed down, now you have to wait for it to acclimate...

That is my view and it seems to be correct for cool-season grasses, but I don't know if the university system has any real info on it.... :)

Smallaxe
03-18-2013, 10:02 AM
Here we have an indoor seed bed from a couple of different charcoal mixes...
The first picture actually has seed floating in standing water becuz these peat pots are currently frozen solid...
My ambition for these photos , is to observe the freeze/thaw effect when the weather starts to warm a bit...
This porch area can be 10 -15 degrees warmer than the outside temps, so it might be a while before we see what happens with the seed, when the process starts...

Spring is really coming slowly, but we'll soon get to see what happened to this process of self-seeding due to the freeze/thaw cycle...

Smallaxe
03-18-2013, 10:25 AM
This was then...

RigglePLC
03-18-2013, 03:35 PM
Weather has been abnormally cold this year. We got an inch of snow followed by cold rain this week. Probable new snow in next two days. Prediction calls for highs of slightly above freezing to persist for another week.
Unmelted snow banks from plowing drives are about 3 feet tall.
Here is seeding applied to snow in early March. It is about 3 feet from road in background. 3 ft by 3 ft area. Metal ruler in center shows snow depth of about 3 inches. Photo about March 9th, 2013.

And here are cups planted with seed and plunged into soil. Right to left: November, December, January, February, March and planned April. Scotts perennial rye. Temp was 32 as a high today.

RigglePLC
03-18-2013, 03:44 PM
Weather has been abnormally cold this year. We got an inch of snow followed by cold rain this week. Probable new snow in next two days. Prediction calls for highs of slightly above freezing to persist for another week.
Unmelted snow banks from plowing drives are about 3 feet tall.
Here is seeding applied to snow in early March. It is about 3 feet from road in background. 3 ft by 3 ft area. Metal ruler in center shows snow depth of about 3 inches. Photo about first week of March.

And here are cups planted with seed and plunged into soil. Right to left: November, December, January, February, March and planned April. Scotts perennial rye. Temp was 32 as a high today.

Smallaxe
03-19-2013, 09:55 AM
The snow is still coming here... about a foot deep before the snow started yesterday... my coldframe porch has basically turned the snow I put over the grass seeds to ice... I'm gradually raining the ice away with the sprinkling can just to have a look at the seed again...
I set up a lot of dormant seeding last Fall and am anxious to see how it worked...
Out 10 day forecast is about the same as the past 10 days... how's your forecast across the Lake???

jfoxtrot9
03-19-2013, 11:16 AM
Subscribed.

frotis
03-22-2013, 05:33 PM
What temps does dormant seeding usually start to germinate in the north east? What if daytime temps are averaging 50 but night time is high 30's. Does it need to be above 50 night and day?

Smallaxe
03-23-2013, 09:00 AM
What temps does dormant seeding usually start to germinate in the north east? What if daytime temps are averaging 50 but night time is high 30's. Does it need to be above 50 night and day?

Soil temperatures are the important ones... reportedly 50+ degrees F. for soil temperatures to get cool-season grasses to germinate... soil temps of 55+ for crabgrass...

Here is where the sun beating down on the soil , or the soil being shaded by grass, makes a big difference as to,,, what germinates and when...

RigglePLC
03-23-2013, 10:04 PM
We usually do not seed until the grass has greened up--perhaps about mid April in an average year. Air temps of about 50, as daily highs. Naturally, seedling emergence is slow, and below 32 at night happens often. I think I have seen new grass emerge in late April--but not sure--so I want to try it for myself.
We still have snow in shaded areas.

Smallaxe
03-24-2013, 08:35 AM
We usually do not seed until the grass has greened up--perhaps about mid April in an average year. Air temps of about 50, as daily highs. Naturally, seedling emergence is slow, and below 32 at night happens often. I think I have seen new grass emerge in late April--but not sure--so I want to try it for myself.
We still have snow in shaded areas.

Wow, you guys are better off on that side of the Lake... we still have snow in sunny areas,,, over a foot of it in most places...

Lawnut101
03-25-2013, 01:07 AM
Wow, you guys are better off on that side of the Lake... we still have snow in sunny areas,,, over a foot of it in most places...

True story. I'm hoping the slit seeding we did in September and October pops up this spring, after the extremely dry fall we had. I'm thinking most of the KBG 50% should have went dormant, or started growing roots right before it got cold. Good luck guys.

frotis
03-25-2013, 09:28 AM
I don't think my dormant seeding in CT will have time to germinate before its time to put down Pre-Em.

Smallaxe
03-25-2013, 09:40 AM
Same here... we got virtually no new grass last Fall once the irrigation went off and there was so much damage to take care of because of irrigation issues,,, so most of my eggs went into the dormant seeding basket with the first major snowstorm...

RigglePLC
03-25-2013, 10:25 AM
I did some tests with Dimension crabgrass control granules. I treated new grass seedling in flower pots at only only 7 days old, when they were 2 inches tall. I used perennial rye at near ideal seeding conditions--moist soil and temps in the eighties. There was no death of the seedlings, but there was some slight stunting.
Seedlings treated with Dimension at 23 days old and about 3 inches tall were not injured. Sept 2011.

I think it may be possible to treat new grass with Dimension if you can get it up to 3 inches tall before treatment. I hope to try this this year. Clearly there is a narrow window of time when the new grass is 3 inches and yet crabgrass has not yet germinated. I think the label says the new grass must be well-established. You must accept some risk.

If anybody tries this let us know what happens.

frotis
03-25-2013, 10:29 AM
I did some tests with Dimension crabgrass control granules. I treated new grass seedling in flower pots at only only 7 days old, when they were 2 inches tall. I used perennial rye at near ideal seeding conditions--moist soil and temps in the eighties. There was no death of the seedlings, but there was some slight stunting.
Seedlings treated with Dimension at 23 days old and about 3 inches tall were not injured. Sept 2011.

I think it may be possible to treat new grass with Dimension if you can get it up to 3 inches tall before treatment. I hope to try this this year. Clearly there is a narrow window of time when the new grass is 3 inches and yet crabgrass has not yet germinated. I think the label says the new grass must be well-established. You must accept some risk.

If anybody tries this let us know what happens.

I am worried about the dimension hurting the seeds before they have a chance to germinate.

Smallaxe
03-25-2013, 10:49 AM
I am worried about the dimension hurting the seeds before they have a chance to germinate.

The idea here is that if the cool season grasses have a hard time germinating, then it is very likely that the CG is having an impossible time germinating...
By the time the CG gets the correct temps etc.,,, the perennials should be well underway...
If the sunny lawns are not growing Spring lawnseed and you're getting nervous, they may be the ones you pre-m, just to be safe...
BUT,,, give the shadier lawns more time and at least give it a chance... :)

What I do with spots that may come in with CG,,, I fill-in with AR after Memorial Weekend,,, I can safely give our soils up here at least that long to NOT produce CG...

RigglePLC
03-25-2013, 09:05 PM
Dimension will definately prevent germination of grass seed if Dimension is used before sowing the seed. Been there...done that.
But if you can get your new grass up to about 3 inches tall before applying the Dimension crabgrass control...and crabgrass has not yet sprouted...Risky, but it should work out OK.
I hope to try this on a bad lawn test site this year. Better test than using flower pots.

Smallaxe
10-30-2013, 09:10 AM
I don't know if lawnsite let me repost the pix or not, but here we are with the old thread and the pix are on page 1... :)

foreplease
10-30-2013, 11:18 PM
Well, axe, I read every bit of this. Where are the pictures or description of results?

What is difficult for me to imagine or accept is that this process seemingly gives us little or greatly reduced control over just which spots germinate. When I fix something it has to be all the way fixed and normally has to occur in some teams's off-season. One of the football fields here (one I do not work on) often broadcasts KBG and refers to it as dormant seeding. Occasionally they will use an Aeravator to seed. Seems to work well on their practice field anyway

Smallaxe
10-31-2013, 10:09 AM
Not sure what you were asking about,,, but the results appeared 5 months later as green grass...

There is generally another freeze/thaw cycle in the Spring which is why the grass that stayed green all Winter under the snow turns brown, before the ground thoroughly thaws out... So this sometimes works in the Spring as well... :)

foreplease
10-31-2013, 08:29 PM
I meant that the process and thought behind it was thoroughly presented but that not a word about or photo of the typical results was included. It would have been helpful and interesting.

Smallaxe
11-01-2013, 09:35 AM
As Riggle points out, pix of green grass is difficult to tell the difference of old vs. new... the photos of the pimply ground was the target... it showed the seed planting itself...

When you are out and about this Fall see it for yourself,,, or if the snow comes before the ground freezes then watch for it in the Spring... You do better with pix than I... regardless I plan to broadcast seed for the winter after the final cleanup before snow... :)

americanlawn
11-05-2013, 06:01 PM
Midwest 2013 dormant seeding.

We have about 50 of these lined up. Plan to seed November 11 - 27.

1) Mow the areas short
2) Spread the seed (mostly turf-type tall fescue, but some KBG)
3) Then aerate the areas 3 - 6 times, depending.

Thoughts?

RigglePLC
11-05-2013, 09:22 PM
Should work. What are the temps and soil temps?
Do you plan to drag it to incorporate the seed--perhaps improve seed to soil contact? Maybe break up the cores?

Its very difficult to determine which exact procedure works best in an overseed situation. Would you mind dragging part for comparison?

What variety of seed? Do you plan to see any seed sprouting before January?

Smallaxe
11-06-2013, 10:31 AM
Midwest 2013 dormant seeding.

We have about 50 of these lined up. Plan to seed November 11 - 27.

1) Mow the areas short
2) Spread the seed (mostly turf-type tall fescue, but some KBG)
3) Then aerate the areas 3 - 6 times, depending.

Thoughts?

I've never liked the holes in the lawns the following Spring from aerating this late in the season,,, but it seems more like tilling up the barren areas with that many passes... It would be easy to picture the difference with that much tilling in the "Before & After" pix that foreplease wanted... That would be fun for all of us to see and give us even better ideas of how to make it successful... :)

I do the Dormant Seeding in areas that I didn't have time or water to renovate earlier in the Season... The nice thing about Dormant Seeding is that the seed can be broadcast on the surface, then,, it will plant itself, establish excellent soil contact on its own, and germinate naturally in the Spring when conditions are right...

foreplease
02-05-2014, 11:40 PM
Here is an article (http://www.wndu.com/news/headlines/Mysterious-noises-traced-to-rare-frost-quakes-243841221.html?device=tablet) that seems somewhat related to your pimpley ground theory. Frost heaving and the freeze thaw cycle is what I've always thought you meant. Same phenomenon that destroys our roads?

Record snow and cold here. Hope everybody is hanging in there!

RigglePLC
02-06-2014, 10:33 AM
Thanks, Fore. We are doing the best we can. No sign or sound of frost quakes. Seed sown on top of snow is doing fine--dormant--except that it now has 22 inches of additional snow on top of it.

I wonder what the snowmold situation will be? This has to be tough on rye, poa and bentgrass.