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jbailey52
12-20-2012, 07:25 PM
Hey, would like to know everyone's approach on laying the paver field.
My particular job right now is a 2700 sq ft driveway. It runs from the sidewalk on one end, to a detached garage on the other. Half of the left side will run along the house. For this job, would most of you start at the detached garage, and dump sand with a skid steer and screed backwards? I've seen guys lay and then drive over the just laid pavers with the skid steer but I can see anyway this would not mess something up. I.e. going up and down the same path with a loaded bucket or forks with a pallet of pavers. I know it will hold a vehicle but the skid steer I feel will tear something up. fYI the shallowest depth of a modified base is 17" due to how awful the soil was when we removed the driveway. We loaded 210 tons of modified.

zedosix
12-20-2012, 08:39 PM
Hey, would like to know everyone's approach on laying the paver field.
My particular job right now is a 2700 sq ft driveway. It runs from the sidewalk on one end, to a detached garage on the other. Half of the left side will run along the house. For this job, would most of you start at the detached garage, and dump sand with a skid steer and screed backwards? I've seen guys lay and then drive over the just laid pavers with the skid steer but I can see anyway this would not mess something up. I.e. going up and down the same path with a loaded bucket or forks with a pallet of pavers. I know it will hold a vehicle but the skid steer I feel will tear something up. fYI the shallowest depth of a modified base is 17" due to how awful the soil was when we removed the driveway. We loaded 210 tons of modified.

Screed from top to bottom, lay from bottom to top. Running perpendicular with house is best. If you must drive on the base, place sheets of plywood and use your skidsteer if you must. Tracked units are a little less likely to do any damage.

alldayrj
12-20-2012, 09:01 PM
X2 for what zedo said. Seems like the only way without seeing pics
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DVS Hardscaper
12-20-2012, 10:31 PM
I need a drawing or pic. my attention span isnt long enough to read all that and try to imagine.

I would NEVER drive a skid steer over pavers that are installed and not compacted. never.

A tracked machine is just as damaging as a tire machine. The only machine that isn't is a TRACTOR.

We did a 6500 SF paver driveway back in 2008 on a hill. The only way to install the pavers was from the top to the bottom. We had to work our way out of the property. People on this forum said "how could you lay from the top to the bottom, you're an idiot, blah blah blah...." Well, in all reality - it wasn't a big deal. 4 yrs later and all is well. It's laying block on the ground, it's not complicated, unless you want it complicated. And it's 12/20/12 and the world hasnt come to an end yet. And it's already tomorrow in austrailia.

alldayrj
12-20-2012, 11:55 PM
Just humor me here, when all is said and done, what did it end up costing the customer per SF On a job that big bailey and dvs? Im sure it wont be in a couple years, but those numbers are so crazy to me right now, my most is 900 sf in one location.
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DVS Hardscaper
12-21-2012, 12:28 AM
Just humor me here, when all is said and done, what did it end up costing the customer per SF On a job that big bailey and dvs? Im sure it wont be in a couple years, but those numbers are so crazy to me right now, my most is 900 sf in one location.
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First of all - the client supplied the pavers. He bought them from Belgard for $1.00 per sf. Yes, I will install what a client supplies. Money is money, I'm not going to turn it away.

Second - an excavating company installed the aggregate base. This driveway was very long. So they were able to install and compact the base in 1/2 the time it would have taken us

Third - that was 16,327 beers ago. I don't remember what the cost was. Maybe around 6 to 8 per sf?




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zedosix
12-21-2012, 07:07 PM
I would NEVER drive a skid steer over pavers that are installed and not compacted. never.

A tracked machine is just as damaging as a tire machine. The only machine that isn't is a TRACTOR.


Not to stir the pot but why would you think a skid with tracks could do more damage than a tractor, I don't see how that is possible. We have done it countless times, no issues. Maybe if you're not familiar how to use a tracked ss then maybe it could be an issue. But with plywood and a tracked skid I would bet that there is less psi than a tractor.

scagrider22
12-21-2012, 07:17 PM
The psi of a tracked machine is much less than a tired machine, I try not to drive over the pavers but I have done with no issues.

DVS Hardscaper
12-21-2012, 11:40 PM
Not to stir the pot but why would you think a skid with tracks could do more damage than a tractor, I don't see how that is possible. We have done it countless times, no issues. Maybe if you're not familiar how to use a tracked ss then maybe it could be an issue. But with plywood and a tracked skid I would bet that there is less psi than a tractor.

People get on this PSI kick. Great for a skid steer sales rep, but in the real world PSI quickly has no more meaning.

If you're talking driving a skid unit (tracked or tired) over uncompacted pavers that are like the size of a parking lot - all would probably be well.

But for a residential application, if you can't come straight in and go straight out - when you turn the unit - it can turn the pavers up.

A tractor doesn't skid. Put it in 2wd and no pavers would get turned up. Interlocking pavers are often used for vehicular use. A CTL has less PSI than a Toyota 4Runner.

Tracked machines do greater damage turning than tired machines. Because the tracks slice the ground.

Buying plywood at 25 bucks a sheet (american not canadian) is crazy. If I were pricing such a job, I'm going to find a way to get the pavers down without having to factor in plywood, etc., I'll sell the job. And guarantee it.

zedosix
12-22-2012, 07:58 AM
Straight in and out works fine if there is turning to do then I agree that there could be some damage. We always bring plywood to our jobs I buy around 20 sheets each spring so for us it's always on site. The old days we just used a wheelbarrow on strips of plywood.
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alldayrj
12-22-2012, 09:55 AM
Or if its not boxed in, drive the skid up fhe grass along side it, drop the skid, and make those laborers earn their keep
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big daddy b
12-23-2012, 11:26 AM
There have been particular jobs where we have had to drive over our work in able to proceed with the job. We've even staged pallets on freshly laid pavers to bucky off from.
Different situations for every job. Some jobs we laid an inch of stone dust over 6" of concrete and we have driven over that with a tracked skidsteer, not a single problem.

A tractor or rubber tire skid will definitely cause much more damage than a tracked skid. At least that's what we have found out with our equipment and our climate. We run almost all tracked skids and tracked equipment. We have a couple rubber tire machines we use once and a while when the situation is right.

jbailey52
12-23-2012, 11:36 AM
Ill post the pictures soon. We just started at the top and screeded our way our of the driveway while bringing in sand and pallets in front of us. I wouldn't chance driving on them uncompacted, but someone posted that video of the machine that laid those brickstone pavers, and looked like an asphalt machine and they drove a loader right on the laid pavers so it had me thinking. It's funny I feel like I'm walking on ice anytime I goto a job my guys are on before the pavers are compacted, then I are other installs and they are all over the new pavers.
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DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 07:24 PM
Not many Hardscape contractors own a tractor. But I do :) and I have a rubber tire. And a tracked machine. The tractor is the least destructive, hands down. Not theory, jus first hand knowledge :)

We have a demo job coming up in Jan. gotta traverse over masonry brick patio in a confined space. The tractor is the answer, because it doesnt skid all about the place, the wheels merely turn like a car. And no contractors around own a tractor, so that made it for an easy sale for me.
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DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 07:33 PM
Ill post the pictures soon. We just started at the top and screeded our way our of the driveway while bringing in sand and pallets in front of us. I wouldn't chance driving on them uncompacted, but someone posted that video of the machine that laid those brickstone pavers, and looked like an asphalt machine and they drove a loader right on the laid pavers so it had me thinking. It's funny I feel like I'm walking on ice anytime I goto a job my guys are on before the pavers are compacted, then I are other installs and they are all over the new pavers.
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I have seen first hand people traverse over geotextile fabric back and forth back and forth with no gravel over the fab. I would never do tht either. It weakens the fabric.

Like I said - if it was a wide open area where you could manuaver a skid unit with wide turns - I could see driving over it. But for a typical residential application - no way would
I do it, they're usually too confined. But thats just me. I like the pavement to be compacted with one machine so everything is uniform. After that - then drive anything you want all you want.
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big daddy b
12-23-2012, 08:50 PM
Yeah, not many hardscape contractors own a tractor because they are pretty much useless.
We have a backhoe that we mostly use to load our trucks in the yard.

What size tractor are we talking about? Like a Kubota compact tractor?
Even with those, just turning a tire on pavers will disturb them, I would think. I've never used a tractor on pavers.
But we've used tracked skids without any isses.

jbailey52
12-23-2012, 09:57 PM
Once everything is compact there would be an issue (maybe with a skid steer marking the area up). Our hard scape supply yard is all brick stone in a herringbone pattern... The entire yard! That means all the tri axles of quarry blend, their 18 wheeler oil tankers and all drive over it day after day. No issues at all and it's pretty impressive.

alldayrj
12-23-2012, 10:02 PM
Once everything is compact there would be an issue (maybe with a skid steer marking the area up). Our hard scape supply yard is all brick stone in a herringbone pattern... The entire yard! That means all the tri axles of quarry blend, their 18 wheeler oil tankers and all drive over it day after day. No issues at all and it's pretty impressive.

Same with mine. I take customers there sometimes to see displays and its a great selling point of the durability
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TomG
12-24-2012, 02:11 PM
Get your self a Bobcat A300 or A770. All wheel steer machines. You get the full lifting capacity, digging and pushing power of a full size skid, but the ground disturbance of a tractor or maybe less than a tractor. (in regards to turning not PSI) I have a A300 and in my opinion they are one of the best hardscaping tools that almost no one uses.

jbailey52
12-24-2012, 10:02 PM
Just looked up the a300.... Damn why didn't I know of this machine??

DVS Hardscaper
12-25-2012, 08:46 AM
Get your self a Bobcat A300 or A770. All wheel steer machines. You get the full lifting capacity, digging and pushing power of a full size skid, but the ground disturbance of a tractor or maybe less than a tractor. (in regards to turning not PSI) I have a A300 and in my opinion they are one of the best hardscaping tools that almost no one uses.

Thank you, Tom!

That's my whole point - TURNING, not ground psi! Ground PSI goes out the door as soon as the machine makes the first turn! How can people be so nieve about that!

Those of us with gravel parking lots, driveways, or loading areas know all too well what the gravel looks like after unloading tools and equipment after a day's work! Could you imagine if quarries used tracked crawl loaders to load trucks instead of articulated loaders??!?!!!

Although.....all this talk towards Bobcat brand and everyone I know with Bobcat always has them down for dealer repairs, and after a few years they move away from Bobcat and never look back :)
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zedosix
12-25-2012, 08:56 AM
Not to mention their hydraulics $@)((
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