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View Full Version : Cut Off Saw (chop saw) vs Table Saw


DVS Hardscaper
12-22-2012, 01:04 AM
So there has been some discussion over the years on this forum as to what to use to cut pavers.

Here is a walkway we just did with 4x8 pavers. I'm sorry, but ain't no cut off saw even with a super duper looper saw operator gonna have lines this clean and flowing! We even have pavers sliced as narrow as a quarter of an inch!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/DVS360/HollandStonewalk_zps76d31d89.jpg


PS: Hmmmm.....I just noticed that it looks like 2 pavers are turned the wrong way! LOL! On the side I was working on! How did I not catch that?! Well, regardless - that walk has some perfect cuts :)


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alldayrj
12-22-2012, 10:58 AM
How can you sleep at night with that herringboner going on?

P.s. table saw all day
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zedosix
12-22-2012, 11:55 AM
The one bad thing about doing 4x8 pavers in that pattern is the 1/4" paver. Thats why I prefer to use a random patterned brick then those slivers can be eliminated totally.

Perfect cutting is great but the flow of the walkway must be perfect or the beautiful cuts don't mean a darn! (no reference to your walkway dvs.)

Red Shed Landscaping
12-22-2012, 02:33 PM
I see you have the snap edge laying there. Do you use it to mark your lines like we do? I figured that out last year and has saved many hours rather than lining up the each border paver on top spending so much time making them just right and then marking. As you can see our perfect cuts as well with a table saw. We also have our saws on wheel barrows to be able to move where the cutting is and to put the scrap pieces in.

DVS Hardscaper
12-22-2012, 03:24 PM
The one bad thing about doing 4x8 pavers in that pattern is the 1/4" paver. Thats why I prefer to use a random patterned brick then those slivers can be eliminated totally.

Perfect cutting is great but the flow of the walkway must be perfect or the beautiful cuts don't mean a darn! (no reference to your walkway dvs.)

In a perfect would I agree random pattern is nice, quick, and easy.

But....reality is - some pavers are better suited for different applications.

I love the old look of a 4x8 clay paver (as used in my pic). It has so much character. Charm. And no 2 pavers are identical!

The walk in my picture took 3 of us 12 hrs to cut (36 man hours).

DVS Hardscaper
12-22-2012, 03:28 PM
I see you have the snap edge laying there. Do you use it to mark your lines like we do? I figured that out last year and has saved many hours rather than lining up the each border paver on top spending so much time making them just right and then marking. As you can see our perfect cuts as well with a table saw. We also have our saws on wheel barrows to be able to move where the cutting is and to put the scrap pieces in.


Now if you would follow my posts, you would have known to use SnapEdge for marking pavers :)

Yes, we use the restraint for marking the pavers.

As far as paver saws:

Buy yourself a saw that has a dedicated stand available, such as EDCO.

Our saws have stands with wheels. (we dont always use them though)

And we have placed the saw on a wheel burrow as in your picture. Not the safest. if the weight shifts while someone is cutting - injury can occur.



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zedosix
12-22-2012, 03:36 PM
How many linear feet was that walkway to take 36 hrs?!
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alldayrj
12-22-2012, 04:13 PM
i plan on adding a second saw for jobs like this with tons of cutting. looking into one of the newer lighter saws.
already have a 20 year old Target version of this bad boy
http://www.husqvarna.com/us/construction/products/masonry-and-tile-saws-product-range/portasaw-ms-355/
and a stihl ts400 for the quick and dirty.

interested in feedback on one of these... it has to be good, its called the brickie
http://www.husqvarna.com/us/construction/products/masonry-and-tile-saws-product-range/brickie-ts-355-b/
its light and sells for around $900/1000 around here.
downside I see is its dry, does this kill blades? i sometimes cut dry on my wet saw but I try not to. I cut dry probably 50 on the ts400

The other option would be a gas portasaw since I do pop a good amount of breakers but I have heard tales of blade vibration

i know, BUY AN EDCO but they are $3k. look like a beautiful machine :checks craigslist:

DVS Hardscaper
12-22-2012, 06:34 PM
How many linear feet was that walkway to take 36 hrs?!
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That's the reality of well crafted walkways. Less square footage than a patio. But way more cutting.
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mrusk
12-22-2012, 11:58 PM
That's the reality of well crafted walkways. Less square footage than a patio. But way more cutting.
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Andrew, anwser the question!

DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 12:03 AM
Andrew, anwser the question!

Sorry Matt. It's Saturday. A holiday weekend. I won't be turning my computer on until next week, I don't know linear feet or square feet off the top of my head. Nor do I know prices of our jobs. The jobs are done long after all the numbers are kabobulated, not the next day.

The walk isn't long in length. Your typical average home. The soldier course is mitered too. We don't allow gaps in the soldier pavers (like red shed's border above has :). )

I have a pretty good system to marking and cutting.

Actually less than 36 mh now that I think about it. The last day also included laying the last section of pavers.
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big daddy b
12-23-2012, 12:18 PM
That's the reality of well crafted walkways. Less square footage than a patio. But way more cutting.
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WOW. 36 man hours to cut in that walkway....Where I work 36 man hours would have been the entire job.
I would have had the entire soldier course cut in 2 hours, with a guy following behind me swapping out cuts and laying in soldier course, with a guy following behind him installing snap edge. done and done.
And don't so anything about quality of work versus production or anything like that. Go click the link in my sig, you can see the quality of work we do.
We just do it much faster and better than anyone else. haha. :usflag:

big daddy b
12-23-2012, 12:21 PM
Oh and we have one table saw, older than dirt. Probably used once or twice this year when we had to duplicate hundreds of halves or miters for a particular job.
But we have 5 demo saws, three of them get used every single day and cut hundreds of thousands of linear feet a year.
It's not for everyone, but we perfected it.

Stillwater
12-23-2012, 12:21 PM
Ya had to take less time otherwise we be lookin at over 5/6 grand in cutting for a average walk.
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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 12:47 PM
With regards to the base width on the left vs the right, looks like you thought the walkway was going more to the right? On the left it doesn't look like there is much of a base extending past the border
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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 12:57 PM
This has probably come up 100x... My guys hate the table saw. It we marked out a radius walk, the curved marked pieces are easily cut on a table saw? Is it usually a straight cut through the saw, but since its such a small portion of the curve when placed back it maintains the curve? Or is there some turning and manipulation of the paver in the table saw?
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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 12:59 PM
Stillwater, so lets say you charged your low estimate if cutting that.... Your charging $136/man hr??? Your numbers are off
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Stillwater
12-23-2012, 01:19 PM
JB ....That's not 136 a man hr... that's a paltry 45 per man per hr X 3 men is 136 per hr, rates near me would be on a higher scale.
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zedosix
12-23-2012, 02:11 PM
A good guy on the tablesaw will follow the curve no matter how tight the radius is
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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 08:10 PM
Stillwater maybe I'm confused... Dvs said he had 36 man hrs... You said you would have charged 5000-6000... If its $45 per man hour it would be $1620. You would be charging $139 a man hour to be at 5000. (we don't know how many men he had working, but that doesn't matter man hours are the total hours (3 men working for 12 hours or 4 working at 9) =36 man hours

DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 08:40 PM
Ya had to take less time otherwise we be lookin at over 5/6 grand in cutting for a average walk.
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Correct. The overall job was over $6500.00.

Work sold and performed Dec through Mid march are done for winter discount rates. Off the top of my head I'd say they saved around $500 maybe as much as $700 by doing the work during off peak season.

It's just like the construction of a Ryan Home vs a home built stick by stick. Always a difference in cost. And quality.
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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 08:45 PM
What about the base?

DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 08:48 PM
WOW. 36 man hours to cut in that walkway....Where I work 36 man hours would have been the entire job.
I would have had the entire soldier course cut in 2 hours, with a guy following behind me swapping out cuts and laying in soldier course, with a guy following behind him installing snap edge. done and done.
And don't so anything about quality of work versus production or anything like that. Go click the link in my sig, you can see the quality of work we do.
We just do it much faster and better than anyone else. haha. :usflag:

LOL

Lets keep it real buddy. Not competing to see who's manhood is bigger.

Veteran contractors come in here whining about being underbid. Because rookie contractors have no clue why they're Gettin into. Now some newbie will think that's truly possible.

This border could not have been mitered in 2 hrs as you claim. Just not humanly and physically possible. Reality is that saw can only cut so fast.
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DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 08:52 PM
What about the base?

That's a vague question. Do you mean excavation and base installation? Or are you asking what the base is?

There are two walks at this property that we did at the same time. Base prep was routine. Both walk's bases measured, marked, installed compacted, leveled, and remarked again for sand application in about 10 hrs.

Lets try to stay on subject please. Table saws. We can talk about production of different aspects of paver installation in a different thread :) I good at talkin about production, that subject is part of my sales presentation :)

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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 08:55 PM
With regards to the base width on the left vs the right, looks like you thought the walkway was going more to the right? On the left it doesn't look like there is much of a base extending past the border
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From page 2

DVS Hardscaper
12-23-2012, 09:01 PM
From page 2

Our bases always extend a min of 6" past the edge of the pavement. If there is a elevation drop - then it's accordingly more. When we do a job we do not install the base exactly where the finished product is to be. We used to do that but I found that all the measuring wasted time. So sometimes there will be way too much aggregate In places. It all gets worked out as we go.

Just like in our beginning days we used to install edge restraint first. Then, we realized that wasn't productive.

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jbailey52
12-23-2012, 09:16 PM
I need to get my ruler out!

big daddy b
12-23-2012, 09:36 PM
LOL

Lets keep it real buddy. Not competing to see who's manhood is bigger.

Veteran contractors come in here whining about being underbid. Because rookie contractors have no clue why they're Gettin into. Now some newbie will think that's truly possible.

This border could not have been mitered in 2 hrs as you claim. Just not humanly and physically possible. Reality is that saw can only cut so fast.
Posted via Mobile Device



Nah of course not, if we were competing you'd clearly lose.


What are you even talking about? Some newbie will think what is truly possible?
Just because you old farts are still doing installations the ancient ways and can't do it fast and efficient like the young bucks are doing it these days.

Maybe that's why your getting underbid. Some people have faster and easier methods with their installations.

How long was that walkway in your picture? 50' max?
Those were clay pavers?
At most, that would have taken me 3 full hours of actual cutting.
Stihl TS 420.

big daddy b
12-23-2012, 09:39 PM
So much for not turning your computer on until next week.

You definitely don't have a full 6" on the bottom left side of the picture.
I don't think that spot is even wide enough for snap edge.

Stillwater
12-24-2012, 02:35 AM
Theirs no way I could do all that cutting in 2 hrs or anyone on my crew. I would need more than 1 saw going. And when putting a proposal together I would never factor just 2 hrs. For that amount of cutting that's just silly.
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DVS Hardscaper
12-24-2012, 09:46 AM
........You definitely don't have a full 6" on the bottom left side of the picture. I don't think that spot is even wide enough for snap edge.

Wow. You're really a miserable individual at this time of year. It's Christmas. Most people are pleasant.

No computer bud. Mobile device :)

There is clearly at least 6" of base in the bottom left of the pic. There is sand covering it up. The sand you see is on top of the base. There is a portion of a shadow and the sand has been walked on making it hard to tell. At least 8-inches. But if you actually take the time to look at the picture, you know - the time you spent typing miserable comments - you would see this. But your mind is clouded with attempting to be as nasty as you can.

You can see there is plenty of aggregate and then the shadow starts and we have walked on the excess sand, what do you think the base just suddenly stopped where the shadow is?! Amazing.

Have a GREAT holiday And may 2013 be a terrific year for you and your family.
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DVS Hardscaper
12-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Theirs no way I could do all that cutting in 2 hrs or anyone on my crew. I would need more than 1 saw going. And when putting a proposal together I would never factor just 2 hrs. For that amount of cutting that's just silly.
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The amount of time consumed for cutting / mitering pavers is often downplayed the same as the time required for daily clean up at the end of each working day.

I'm not sure when, but we will be installing a 1,890 SF patio sometime this winter. For the most part it's rectangular in shape, no curvey radiused outter perimeters and borders. BUT there will be just under 2 full days of cutting pavers!

The patio is boxed in. Meaning one side is the dwelling, and the other 3 sides are retained by a huge retaining wall. So we will have mitering on all 4 sides (yes there will be mitering required along the dwelling for existing logistical site conditions.) Not to mention the multiple deck posts.

In the middle of the patio will be something like 48-linear feet of NDS's Dura Slope drain boxes that will be flush with the pavers. Just mitering the pavers to fit around the drain will easily take 2 guys 6 hours (12 MH). And to top things off - at this stage in the project we won't be able to run the saw close to where we're working because it will get dust all over the pavers and house! So this means the saw must be stationed at least 50-feet away from the furthest end!

No matter how one tries to spin it, no matter how big one's Wacker is - There simply is no Smart Phone App that can/will speed up paver cutting. (plate compactor that is)


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latux87
12-27-2012, 11:29 AM
Maybe a faster cutting blade would help? lol

zedosix
12-27-2012, 11:53 AM
Maybe a faster cutting blade would help? lol

How true. I always say you get what you pay for!

latux87
12-27-2012, 02:03 PM
Not always, only if you are a smart shopper!

DVS Hardscaper
12-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Maybe a faster cutting blade would help? lol

LOL

Do faster cutting blades come with a bigger carberator, performance pipe, silencer, and run on CAM2 race gas?
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latux87
12-27-2012, 03:59 PM
That's next years model....lol

jbailey52
12-27-2012, 06:49 PM
There is clearly at least 6" of base in the bottom left of the pic. There is sand covering it up. .
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Those are 4x8 pavers right? If you added one more paver on the outside of your border, In a soldier course the same as you have, that would fall right off the side!

It looks like you have about 2'+ of base extending past the right side, I figured the walkway moved more left then expected... and wheres that GEOtextile hanging out of the sides?!? :)

DVS Hardscaper
12-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Those are 4x8 pavers right? If you added one more paver on the outside of your border, In a soldier course the same as you have, that would fall right off the side!

It looks like you have about 2'+ of base extending past the right side, I figured the walkway moved more left then expected... and wheres that GEOtextile hanging out of the sides?!? :)

The walk is installed on a slope. After the aggregate was placed and compacted I came through on the loader on the upper side and shaved about 8-10 inches of earth out at an angle, tapering down to the walk. So where you see soil/or don't see aggregate is where I graded the soil down to taper into the walk. And the soil is over the aggregate, which gets backfilled with soil anyway.

All our jobs have not one, but two layers of fabric. The first layer under the aggregate is usually way greater than needed, never less than needed. After the base installation is completed, lines are painted for where the pavers will go, and the 2nd layer is cut to go within the lines, wasting very little, and exposing very little past the sand :) When you work with me - you learn to become very diligent and you learn that I am very specific with no room for nonsence.

You more than welcome to check out my website and attend a paver installation seminar in an area near you:
www.andrewhardscape.com/fanclub/seminartour



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jbailey52
12-27-2012, 08:14 PM
I signed up, but if I dont get free door hangers, and a jacket im going to be pissed.