PDA

View Full Version : When are guys done work


ponyboy
12-23-2012, 08:04 PM
Are guys off the clock when they finish work Atari site. Or when they drive back to shop
I pay till they are back at shop my friend pays them when they finish at last site
Posted via Mobile Device

C & T Landscaping
12-23-2012, 08:19 PM
If I had people working for me, I'd prob pay after they got back to the shop...once they get back, they can maintain the vehicles/equipment and re-fuel it for morning.

Marshman
12-23-2012, 08:21 PM
your buddy is a rat. unless he pays by the job. If its by the hour then it seems silly to me to quit paying an employee when he still has to take the truck back to the shop, unload equipment, etc, all part of the J.O.B

NIXRAY
12-23-2012, 08:22 PM
Paid to get back to shop and on the click till all of end of day work is done. I would think if they have to drive/ride back to the shop off the clock problems might arise such as speeding, unauthorized stops etc
Posted via Mobile Device

jrs.landscaping
12-23-2012, 08:34 PM
When everything is dumped, refueled, and reloaded.

weeze
12-23-2012, 08:37 PM
truck time is still on the clock by law. they are off the clock when they get in their own car to go home.

ponyboy
12-23-2012, 08:38 PM
We fuel in am nothing to dump and have box trucks and enclosed trailers
Not sure if guys should get paid window time both ways one way yes for now they do though
Posted via Mobile Device

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
12-23-2012, 08:39 PM
Back to the shop and unloaded for the day until we are done, they are on the clock
Posted via Mobile Device

JParisan
12-23-2012, 08:43 PM
This is by far one of the stupidest questions I have ever read on here. Congratulaions for reaching the upper echelon of ******ness. Do you really expect even a half decent worker to stay on with that BS?

ponyboy
12-23-2012, 08:46 PM
Let me also say in my area it is mainly illegal immigrants say 95%
Posted via Mobile Device

JParisan
12-23-2012, 08:50 PM
So do you hire out of the 95% or the other 5%? If it is the former of the two, then you are part of the problem. I can only see that comment having relevance if you have them employed.

ponyboy
12-23-2012, 08:52 PM
I have both you can not have a business with out them here I treat my guys like my family because with out them I would have nothing
Posted via Mobile Device

ponyboy
12-23-2012, 08:56 PM
The problem is more than me
First I say let them come into country give them iID so they can pay taxed get insurance get drivers liscen and work legally
I can't find Americans who want to do this work in my area I have tried
Solo companies can not survive here over head is way too much unless you don't want to own a house or car it just is not realistic
Posted via Mobile Device

weeze
12-23-2012, 08:57 PM
just pay them dude. i mean how long does it take to drive back? 5-15min at most? that's not much more money to pay someone.

when i worked back in college i might as well been an illegal alien because the boss always paid us in cash and none of us paid taxes on it. it was a very normal thing to do back in those days. no kid that ever cut grass back then paid taxes ever. it's not like we were making a killing or anything. maybe 8-10k a year lol.

ponyboy
12-23-2012, 09:00 PM
I do but I have one crew that works 1 hour away each day
Just throwing it out there
Posted via Mobile Device

jrs.landscaping
12-23-2012, 09:02 PM
just pay them dude. i mean how long does it take to drive back? 5-15min at most? that's not much more money to pay someone.

Some days ours is an hour one way, they get paid both ways and for lunch. I think they deserve it, we haul A$$ all day, I think they deserve to get paid to :sleeping: on the ride back to the shop.

JParisan
12-23-2012, 09:04 PM
That is your mistake right there. If you want to take on a job that is an hour away, the last thing that should happen is your employees paying the price for it.

JParisan
12-23-2012, 09:05 PM
A job that far needs to worth your while. If you contemplate cheating your guys then it is time to reconsider.

weeze
12-23-2012, 09:11 PM
that is a huge mistake. you are wasting 2 hrs a day driving.

jrs.landscaping
12-23-2012, 09:33 PM
that is a huge mistake. you are wasting 2 hrs a day driving.

I don't know who that was directed towards? In my case, 2 crews 2k in one day. The drive is worth it for me.

Marshman
12-23-2012, 09:34 PM
They are people though. Illegal or not. They deserve to be paid. So pay them for the hour they have to drive on the way to and from the job.. And don't think you are doing them a favor cause your not. Get jobs closer to where your office/shop is. That's gotta be business 101. Merry Christmas
Posted via Mobile Device

weeze
12-23-2012, 10:24 PM
I don't know who that was directed towards? In my case, 2 crews 2k in one day. The drive is worth it for me.

i guess it's worth it if you are making that much. if you are making that much then you can afford to pay them for the drive time then.

jlcrox2
12-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Definitely pay. Unless your guys drive separately to a job site and go home from there they are on the clock when in your truck. Proper planning could help to offset costs. Keep things running efficiently. As far as a job being far away, you bid it knowing the drive time. If you bid it too low...that's on you. Look into Microsoft streets and trips. It can be a big help with your route planning.

CL&T
12-24-2012, 12:10 AM
As has been said, you have to pay them- it's the law and they can turn you in if you don't. Another thing to consider is overtime. If someone has more than 40 hours per week you have to pay them time and a half for those hours over 40. So that job 1 hour away can cost you.

godzilla
12-24-2012, 12:17 AM
My guys get paid until they are back at the yard. If they are going home in their own cars, that's great... if I have to drive them home, then they either finish at the yard (if we go back there directly) or at the end of the job.

GreenI.A.
12-24-2012, 04:20 AM
the law here is simply if the employee is under your control then he is on the clock. Can they stop at any store they want to after that last stop on the way back to the shop? Can they go to the bar after the last stop on their way back to shop? Can they go to the strip club on after that last stop on the way back to the shop? Probably not, because they are in your truck loaded with equipment that you want back to the shop, thus they are still under your control. Basically you are telling them they should be back to the shop on xx minutes and are not free to stop where they want on the way back.

Where this can become confusing is in the example godzilla just posted, inwhich you give your guy a ride home. In the event that the employee is dropped off immediately after a job site then he is clocked out after that job is done. If you drop him off after dumping debris, then he is clocked out after that is done. If you go back to the shop to unload or load up for tomorrow, then he is paid up until that time. If you have to make other stops on the way to his house where he does not need to perform any duties, for example stop at a parts store, then he is paid for the extended time. For example he is usually dropped off 25 minutes after completeling work, but today you stoped at valvaline for an oil change and he got dropped off 45 minutes late. Then he is pd for those 45 minutes.

Even having a guy drive his own vehicle from site to site, legally, more than likely he should be on the clock. When he leaves site A, do you expect him to meet you right at site B, or do you allow him to take his sweet? Then he is on the clock. Do you have your guys ever fallow you in their own vehicle? then not only are they on the clock but if they get into an accident, your insurance is responsible for repairing their vehicle and injuries.

This is MA law, obviously every state is going to differ. Being that the OP is in NY, I know many of your employment laws are very similar, many are stricter their as well.

yardguy28
12-24-2012, 07:31 AM
your buddy is a rat. unless he pays by the job. If its by the hour then it seems silly to me to quit paying an employee when he still has to take the truck back to the shop, unload equipment, etc, all part of the J.O.B

I agree and I'm surprised he can get the employees to drive the truck and equipment back to the shop.

as far as I'm concerned if I were working for someone my work ends for the day when I stop getting paid for the day. I'd be arranging for someone to pick me up from my last stop of the day if that were the case. leave the truck right in front of the property I last finished.

it's not just silly I would think its illegal.

Toro 455
12-24-2012, 07:33 AM
This is MA law, obviously every state is going to differ. Being that the OP is in NY, I know many of your employment laws are very similar, many are stricter their as well.

A lot of these workers rights went out with the unions. They were the ones that got them passed and seen they were enforced.
Are MA & NY right-to-work (for nothing) states?

yardguy28
12-24-2012, 07:35 AM
well I missed the part about about them being illegal immigrants.

I wouldn't hire illegal immigrants in the first place.

whiffyspark
12-24-2012, 07:57 AM
I work for a large company and they prefer not to pay the drive back if we're sitting in traffic.

As far as working an hour away, we have several properties an hour away. We have a few that take all day. And a few that require 8 people all day

We just got a contract an hour away 5 days a week four people cutting grass.
Posted via Mobile Device

yardguy28
12-24-2012, 08:04 AM
by law it doesn't matter what they prefer to pay.

I'm really surprised there are people who would accept and put up with a job that does not pay you your full earnings.

if your on the clock and or in company vehicles you have to get paid by law.

whiffyspark
12-24-2012, 08:06 AM
That's what I've told them. I won't clock out until I'm going home. We have 15-20 crews going out all season

Also, I believe brickman got in a lot of trouble for it as well
Posted via Mobile Device

Toro 455
12-24-2012, 08:22 AM
http://www.nlrb.gov/reports-guidance/rules-regulations

You guys with employees might want to look thru this. There are actually LAWS governing workers rights. And paying an employee until they're back to the shop is not up for debate. It's the law!

jrs.landscaping
12-24-2012, 08:26 AM
http://www.nlrb.gov/reports-guidance/rules-regulations

You guys with employees might want to look thru this. There are actually LAWS governing workers rights. And paying an employee until they're back to the shop is not up for debate. It's the law!

This PSA was brought to you by lawnsite Thumbs Up

GreenI.A.
12-24-2012, 11:26 AM
another thing my attorney has advised me. A few of my guys take trucks home at night. For example, my irrigation tech and lead fert tech. The usually go straight to the first account of the day or supply house and at the end of the day they often do not go back to the shop. What we do to cover for this is, they get paid for the windshild time that they would have from the shop to the first shop, and from the last shop back to the shop. So if they go to the supply house which is 45 minutes from the shop first thing in the am, they get paid 45 minutes, but my irrigation tech lives only 15 minutes from the supply house, so he actually makes out and gets paid for an extra 30 minutes. At the same time, the last account of the day may be 15 minutes from the shop, but he may live 60 minutes away. He gets paid for the 15 minutes only.

GreenI.A.
12-24-2012, 11:28 AM
A lot of these workers rights went out with the unions. They were the ones that got them passed and seen they were enforced.
Are MA & NY right-to-work (for nothing) states?

No they're not right to work states

CL&T
12-24-2012, 11:36 AM
New York IS a right to work state as I believe Ma is also. I don't know what it has to do with the conversation. All it means is that if you go to work for a union company you can opt out of joining the union. You would get the same pay either way. I have never seen anybody stupid enough to do that and forgo the benefits unless the company went union after they were there and they were management suck ups.

weeze
12-24-2012, 01:14 PM
maybe this is why guys on here can't keep good employees working for them? lol

Patriot Services
12-24-2012, 01:28 PM
Driving your vehicles back to your shop is work and must be paid at their regular rate or ot if over 40 hours. Its FEDERAL labor law, regardless of what state your in. Are these illegals that you hired and are holding that over their heads? No American with an ounce of common sense would put up with that. Our timeclock is in the shop. That's where the pay starts and stops. This topic comes up several times a year and still some guys don't get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

CL&T
12-24-2012, 02:05 PM
Are these illegals that you hired and are holding that over their heads?

Legal or illegal, they have the same rights when it comes to pay. There are immigrant advocate groups that have laywers who will take their complaint and rake you over the coals with the labor laws and the IRS.

yardguy28
12-24-2012, 03:54 PM
ummm NO!!!!!

illegals have NO rights period. or at least they shouldn't.

cpllawncare
12-24-2012, 05:00 PM
SC is a right to work state and companies are moving here for that very reason, the downside is companies pretty much do as they please, with no backlash from the state. The state loves it because they can proclaim themselves as a corporate friendly state and recruit companies from all over the world, without ever looking at employee satisfaction. When boeing moved here to get away from the unions, all they talked about was they would pay the same wages as they did in washington state, but now people are seeing that it's not the wages that's the issue, it how management treats the associates, that's the BIG difference, as is the case with most all the big companies now. Who cares if you make $30-40 a hour if you get treated like crap day in day out.

yardguy28
12-24-2012, 06:07 PM
see I don't go for money like that.

I'd rather make $10 an hour where I get treated well and enjoy my work rather than make $30-$40 an hour and get treated like sheot.

but that's off topic.

It's About Thyme
12-24-2012, 07:21 PM
Why would you not pay your guys?they are in your truck with your equipment and should be paid to get there and back.law or not it's the right thing to do.put the shoe on the other foot ,would you do it?

I read a story about an illegal immigrant worker who was working under the table,was injured and sued the employer and won.employer was fined forced to pay illegal worker a fairly large sum of money.the illegal worker was deported with a fat bank account ,morale of story,illegals do have rights ,like it or not.

ELS Landscape
12-24-2012, 07:30 PM
I have both you can not have a business with out them here I treat my guys like my family because with out them I would have nothing
Posted via Mobile Device

Do not give me that crap. I live in Texas and compete very well using legal employees. I might not make as much profit as the cheaters but I sleep well.

Patriot Services
12-24-2012, 09:19 PM
I have both you can not have a business with out them here I treat my guys like my family because with out them I would have nothing
Posted via Mobile Device

Your a foul one Mr. Grinch. Your all over this site posting about ways to screw dimes out of your guys. You have an 8 year employee bailing over your lunch crap. Your business is built on their backs and will fail by your hand. Treating them like family my azz!
Posted via Mobile Device

cpllawncare
12-25-2012, 02:36 AM
The point I was trying to make was treat your guys fairly and try not to be an ass to them, sometimes it's hard, but usually they do the right thing, if they feel like they are being treated right. It's a known fact that money is usually not the top priority at the job, work environment is huge these days, if they do a good job tell them, give a lil bonus to show your appreciation when possible.

Kelly's Landscaping
12-26-2012, 04:01 PM
Their done when they reach their own cars weather thats at your shop or the job site if they just met you there. Unless the employee had to picked up and dropped off at his house then you got a reason not to pay someone for the ride home provided you do not go strait to the shop and make him unload.

32vld
12-29-2012, 04:14 PM
I do but I have one crew that works 1 hour away each day
Just throwing it out there
Posted via Mobile Device

They are in your truck they are on the clock.

ELS Landscape
12-29-2012, 05:12 PM
You can pay them by the job but you must track time and make sure they do not go below minimum wage. That is not going to work for most guys so if you pay them by the job you should make sure they actually make more money. The benifit to you is they work harder and faster so everyone makes more money.

I have not set up piece meal work yet but strongly considering it.

CL&T
12-29-2012, 08:26 PM
SC is a right to work state and companies are moving here for that very reason, the downside is companies pretty much do as they please, with no backlash from the state. The state loves it because they can proclaim themselves as a corporate friendly state and recruit companies from all over the world, without ever looking at employee satisfaction. When boeing moved here to get away from the unions, all they talked about was they would pay the same wages as they did in washington state, but now people are seeing that it's not the wages that's the issue, it how management treats the associates, that's the BIG difference, as is the case with most all the big companies now. Who cares if you make $30-40 a hour if you get treated like crap day in day out.

Right to work DOES NOT mean that you can't have or there are no unions. As I said above, all it means is that an employee of a union company can opt-out of union membership (they have the right to work there). It also means that union CONSTRUCTION jobs can have subs that are non-union (they have the right to work)- provided they pay their employees prevailing wage. With prevailing wage the payroll and workers are carefully audited and there have been cases where cheaters (employers) have gone to jail or paid big fines.

As for companies moving there, like I said NY is a right to work state also and no company wants to move here. Why? Nothing to do with unions and all to do with how the state treats businesses tax and restriction wise.

Employee satisfaction was never a function of the state. That's why unions were created, to level the playing field between labor and management and give labor the power to demand fair treatment. Without them, especially today, businesses will take advantage of their employees any way they can to maximize profit. Why do you think businesses hate unions?

Kelly's Landscaping
12-29-2012, 11:54 PM
Right to work DOES NOT mean that you can't have or there are no unions. As I said above, all it means is that an employee of a union company can opt-out of union membership (they have the right to work there). It also means that union CONSTRUCTION jobs can have subs that are non-union (they have the right to work)- provided they pay their employees prevailing wage. With prevailing wage the payroll and workers are carefully audited and there have been cases where cheaters (employers) have gone to jail or paid big fines.

As for companies moving there, like I said NY is a right to work state also and no company wants to move here. Why? Nothing to do with unions and all to do with how the state treats businesses tax and restriction wise.

Employee satisfaction was never a function of the state. That's why unions were created, to level the playing field between labor and management and give labor the power to demand fair treatment. Without them, especially today, businesses will take advantage of their employees any way they can to maximize profit. Why do you think businesses hate unions?

Both New York and New Jersey had multiple reported incidents of non union line workers being threatened assaulted one guy has his jaw broken and swears and insults thrown at them. Why because they were kind enough to drive up here 1000 miles to try to put the power back on after sandy and the morons yea I said it moron union workers couldn't look past their bias and wanted them gone. Some were with out power for more than a month and for union thugs I guess that wasn't long enough. Next door in PA there are 2 cases of construction yards vandalized this year the last this week over 500k in damage done by union thugs because they were non union. Unions need to be banned intimidation and election fraud is all they do these days.

We have a labor dept we have osha we have mining safety agency's. The reason from them existing isn't what it use to be they are greedy and redundant.

CL&T
12-30-2012, 12:57 PM
Both New York and New Jersey had multiple reported incidents of non union line workers being threatened assaulted one guy has his jaw broken and swears and insults thrown at them. Why because they were kind enough to drive up here 1000 miles to try to put the power back on after sandy and the morons yea I said it moron union workers couldn't look past their bias and wanted them gone. Some were with out power for more than a month and for union thugs I guess that wasn't long enough. Next door in PA there are 2 cases of construction yards vandalized this year the last this week over 500k in damage done by union thugs because they were non union. Unions need to be banned intimidation and election fraud is all they do these days.

We have a labor dept we have osha we have mining safety agency's. The reason from them existing isn't what it use to be they are greedy and redundant.

I did hear that one about the out of town workers but I don't think it ever went past heresay. I also heard that there was a lot of copper theft going on as well as workers being threatened and assaulted, even at gunpoint by people who wanted them to restore their power right now. I suspect the rest of what you quote is more of the same- anti-union propaganda. What could be a more perfect time, with thousands of people already looking for blood, than to blame their problems on the big bad unions.

Kelly's Landscaping
12-30-2012, 05:46 PM
http://articles.philly.com/2012-12-29/news/36052526_1_union-issue-union-members-nonunion-construction-workers that took me all of 10 seconds to find. Unions are no good I use to be forced to be in one if you can't see it I feel sorry for ya.

Duekster
12-30-2012, 06:04 PM
We should send the union to china.

CL&T
12-30-2012, 07:05 PM
The site where Chestnut Hill Friends Meeting is building a new meetinghouse was damaged by arsonists during Christmas week, and police are now "absolutely" sure the attack was the result of a dispute between members of a Philadelphia construction union and the project's nonunion contractor.

Sure, happens all the time. It was a non-union job that did not pay prevailing wage. But what's that got to do with Sandy? When I was a non-union EC a union guy threatened to throw one of my guys down an elevator shaft. The GC paid the union off and they shut up. I have a friend who is an non-union commercial interior renovation contractor. The carpenters union picketed both across the street from his office and on each of his jobs for years. They finally gave up and went away when they saw nobody was paying attention to them but he did lose a big account because the customer didn't want that going on in front of his building. I'm certainly not saying that that kind of stuff is right and you can see how right to work means nothing in cases like that.

From what I understand, the utility workers buried the hatchet during the Sandy recovery (as well as the storms before it) and worked together. The locals realized that there was just no way they were going to be able to handle it themselves.

Kelly's Landscaping
12-30-2012, 08:03 PM
Prevailing wage is a bs weasel word. You find that a lot in government contracts in heavily Dem states. Doesn't matter that the job could be done for a fraction of the money and that the tax payers who ultimately are paying the bill are the ones getting screwed. What matters is the unions money continues to flow uninterrupted to the DNC. They buy the Dems and the Dems owe them and Prevailing wage is one of the unholy pay offs. And I have seen government contracts that spelled out exactly what I had to pay my guys if I took the job. And that wage didn't reflect reality at all. Why put a project out to bid at all if your telling the contractors what the bid is going to be before they ever look at the specs.

Now I get it your pro union but your on a lawn care site whose members are overwhelmingly non union business owners. What I don't get is why your so misguided. I mentioned sandy not so I could debate sandy no I was just bringing up yet another group of recent incidents where unions don't give a damn about the rest of us or what is best for the country.

cpllawncare
12-30-2012, 08:11 PM
I worked for a very short period of time as a lineman, and was shocked at how we got treated when we went on storms, we had entire trucks get stolen while we would be a few blocks away restoring power. We went into a trailer park and were blocked in until everybodies power was back on, we ended up having to call police to get us out. I know unions aren't all they're cracked up to be, I wish there were a way to get some of these big companies to treat their workers right, BMW is constantly crying they can't get enough workers here, yet they just got rid of 500 employees for so called quality infractions, that's the second time this year they've done that, how many workers do they think they have in this area? They have to lie cheat and steal to get anybody in there now. They had the nerve to call me two weeks ago and ask if I would come back? I was like YEA RIGHT You don't have enough money to get me back.

CL&T
12-30-2012, 11:31 PM
I know unions aren't all they're cracked up to be, I wish there were a way to get some of these big companies to treat their workers right, BMW is constantly crying they can't get enough workers here, yet they just got rid of 500 employees for so called quality infractions, that's the second time this year they've done that, how many workers do they think they have in this area? They have to lie cheat and steal to get anybody in there now. They had the nerve to call me two weeks ago and ask if I would come back? I was like YEA RIGHT You don't have enough money to get me back.

Exactly the point. Do some unions abuse their power and the law? Absolutely! But overall unions have done more good for workers than any harm they are said to have created for businesses.

Prevailing wage is a bs weasel word. You find that a lot in government contracts in heavily Dem states. Doesn't matter that the job could be done for a fraction of the money and that the tax payers who ultimately are paying the bill are the ones getting screwed. What matters is the unions money continues to flow uninterrupted to the DNC. They buy the Dems and the Dems owe them and Prevailing wage is one of the unholy pay offs. And I have seen government contracts that spelled out exactly what I had to pay my guys if I took the job. And that wage didn't reflect reality at all. Why put a project out to bid at all if your telling the contractors what the bid is going to be before they ever look at the specs.

Now I get it your pro union but your on a lawn care site whose members are overwhelmingly non union business owners. What I don't get is why your so misguided. I mentioned sandy not so I could debate sandy no I was just bringing up yet another group of recent incidents where unions don't give a damn about the rest of us or what is best for the country.

It's correct that you will see union or prevailing wage in public work contracts. That's because the government has an interest in making sure the workers on those jobs get paid a living wage and benefits and the contractors aren't putting it all in their pockets. As far as contributions to the DNC, it's no different than businesses, corporations and the 1%'rs contributing to the RNC who believe that paying $8/hr is best for this country.

Actually I am not pro or anti-union. I only call it as I see it. Unions only care about their members, it's the government and politicians that are supposed to care about the rest of us and we could go on for days talking about what slime they are.

Kelly's Landscaping
12-31-2012, 10:40 AM
. Unions only care about their members,

Now thats the funniest thing you've written thus far. Now I have a sister in a public service union for the state. And when it gets tight and there is no money to give these blood suckers how do they vote. Do they vote to freeze wages that year so all their members (the members they care about) keep their jobs. NOPE they vote for raises that result in 2000-5000 of their members getting fired with out fail. What do they care its done by seniority not work quality or attitude. No you're been here 20 years your burnt out and do more harm than good you get to keep your job. Instead the 10 year and under guys the ones who still believe in their work you guys got to go your seniors want their raises.

Unions care about Marxism that is always the goal. Sometimes they slip up and mention it but usually they are careful not to use the C work but socialism or progressivism doesn't have the same impact in peoples minds yet so they gleefully admit to it and contribute too it. As for the business and corporations contributing to the RNC they tend to be industries that make under 20% profits usually under 10%. The industries that make money with out much effort Google, Microsoft, Apple, Investment banks, Insurance ,Wall street, the entertainment industry , Hedge funds , Foundations they tend to overwhelmingly give to the DNC. After all money comes easy when you push paper or use Asian non union sweatshops to make your product so why not demand others pay more its easy to demand that when you don't have a clue what your talking about.

The 1%s give to the party that best reflect them and how they made their money. The guys that own a business they built from the ground up and put their lives into give to the RNC. The guys who married into their money Senator Kerry and Wife, the actors that got their breaks because their parents were actors, Trial Lawyers who make their money extorting people John Edwards, The ones that inherited their money they give to the DNC.

CL&T
12-31-2012, 11:07 AM
Now I have a sister in a public service union for the state. And when it gets tight and there is no money to give these blood suckers how do they vote. Do they vote to freeze wages that year so all their members (the members they care about) keep their jobs. NOPE they vote for raises that result in 2000-5000 of their members getting fired with out fail. What do they care its done by seniority not work quality or attitude. No you're been here 20 years your burnt out and do more harm than good you get to keep your job. Instead the 10 year and under guys the ones who still believe in their work you guys got to go your seniors want their raises.

I haven't seen too many public service workers who care about anything but a paycheck. I do think the older workers at least have a better work ethic than the younger ones who just took the job so they can retire after 20 years with a big fat pension and benefits that we pay for for the rest of their lives. As a country this is one of the biggest problems we face in coming to terms with the economy. There is some logic in dumping the younger workers before they become life-long leaches on the system. Fire the older workers and we still pay for them.