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scagrider22
12-25-2012, 09:37 PM
Does anyone have an F-650 with a V-10? I am thinking about buying one and want some opinions from other owners or people who know somebody that owns one. Gas mileage is not an issue the truck will be driven around town and will not see much highway use. I want it with a regular cab and a 10' dump bed.

The truck will be used to haul a mini ex or skid steer to the job sites and stone/soil. It costs about $12,000 less than the highest horse power cummins at my local dealer. I believe the gearing is 6.30, how well does it tow with the v10, where I live it is very flat, not many hills.

We only drive the dumps about 15,000 miles per year so the truck rots away long before a diesel engine hits 200,000 so Im not looking for a truck I can put 400,000-500,000 miles on.

What do you guys think?

exmark user
12-25-2012, 10:03 PM
Cummins in a ford .... Stock?

LandFakers
12-25-2012, 10:06 PM
Cummins in a ford .... Stock?
I believe the F650's come with the Cummins motor. Pretty wild stuff

exmark user
12-25-2012, 10:13 PM
Really wow ??.... Also I didn't know they made an f450 and above gas motor if so must be rare at least on newer models?

BrandonV
12-25-2012, 10:25 PM
makes no sense to me get the diesel

alldayrj
12-25-2012, 10:28 PM
15k miles is above average for a passenger car and especially a truck. So i think its a bad idea. However i don't have first hand experience.
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jsslawncare
12-25-2012, 10:29 PM
Cummins or Cat. I thought V10 was in a F550 or smaller, maybe even F450. Buy not the F650. I maybe wrong.

exmark user
12-25-2012, 10:34 PM
Cummins or Cat. I thought V10 was in a F550 or smaller, maybe even F450. Buy not the F650. I maybe wrong.
Agreed I thought v10 was in 350 and below

scagrider22
12-25-2012, 10:42 PM
Really wow ??.... Also I didn't know they made an f450 and above gas motor if so must be rare at least on newer models?

Ford just started using the v10 about a year ago mainly to replace all the 8.1 Chevy moving vans.

scagrider22
12-25-2012, 10:43 PM
15k miles is above average for a passenger car and especially a truck. So i think its a bad idea. However i don't have first hand experience.
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15,000 miles in a year is nothing on a cummins, they are made to do that in one month.

scagrider22
12-25-2012, 10:45 PM
Cummins or Cat. I thought V10 was in a F550 or smaller, maybe even F450. Buy not the F650. I maybe wrong.

2011 and newer only come with cummins or v10

scagrider22
12-25-2012, 10:49 PM
makes no sense to me get the diesel

It makes perfect sense for my situation as long as it has enough power to pull a mini. I dont need a truck that will run 500,000 miles and climbs long hills.

This is why I want to hear from people that have one.

tnmtn
12-25-2012, 11:03 PM
I tow 12,000# with an old Chevy w/ a 366 gas engine. I wouldn't think you would have any problem.

alldayrj
12-25-2012, 11:09 PM
15,000 miles in a year is nothing on a cummins, they are made to do that in one month.

Yea johnny you just said you plan on doing 15k a year on your dump and are looking for a gas motor.
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scagrider22
12-25-2012, 11:25 PM
15,000 a year is nothing on a gas or diesel engine, if I drove it all day every day then diesel is a no brainer. All I'm doing is hauling equipment to jobs, most materials are delivered. I'm not looking for a gas vs diesel debate, like I said before if you own a 650 with a v10 let me hear your opinion, if not move along! I currently own chevy's with 8.1 liters and they have plenty of power for what I need, unfortunately I need another one and Chevy no longer makes them so the 650 gas is the next best option.
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LandFakers
12-25-2012, 11:36 PM
I know I have towed with my sons dodge V10 and it didnt budge with 12k. Not sure what your mini weighs but im sure its less than that

scagrider22
12-25-2012, 11:42 PM
My mini is a little over 12,000 lbs and the trailer is around 4500. My Chevy 6500 pulls it great. The dodge may not have been geared to pull that kind of weight and I could be wrong but I don't think the dodge v10 had nearly as much power.
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LandFakers
12-25-2012, 11:45 PM
My mini is a little over 12,000 lbs and the trailer is around 4500. My Chevy 6500 pulls it great. The dodge may not have been geared to pull that kind of weight and I could be wrong but I don't think the dodge v10 had nearly as much power.
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I think i screwed you up with my wording, when I say didnt budge I meant pulled it fine. haha Sorry about the confusion. I do know that the Ford V10 has less torgue than the dodge, but not sure about HP numbers. Sorry the confussion.

hosejockey2002
12-26-2012, 02:01 PM
The Ford V10 has more horsepower and torque than the old Dodge V10 although it spins at higher rpm.

To the OP, I doubt you will find anyone on here running a V10 F650 since they are relatively new. If you were happy previously with your 8.1 powered GM trucks, I would imagine the V10 F650 will work for you. It's cheaper to buy and you won't have any emissions related headaches. If you are running really heavy all the time or doing lots of highway miles than go diesel.

tnmtn
12-26-2012, 05:43 PM
forgot to add, gears are your friend, mine has a 5x2. most the time i just stay in high range when not loaded. Not sure i woud be happy with an automatic or a 6 speed.

scagrider22
12-26-2012, 06:08 PM
The only way it comes is with a 6 speed automatic with two overdrives, the rear gears are 7.17.
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Marek
12-26-2012, 09:36 PM
Ford claims it possible to be within 10 % mpg of the diesel ??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyA7rfdy7_E

scagrider22
12-26-2012, 09:52 PM
I read the same thing, if it does great if not its not a big deal. I just want to know how we'll it tows or hauls.
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Marek
12-31-2012, 11:38 AM
So what have you found out ? What is the price difference on the chassis between a 550 and 650. Did you find any mpg numbers other than the Ford video ?

scagrider22
12-31-2012, 11:57 AM
Last Thursday I went to look at new ones, I can get a f650 or a derated 750 cab and chassis for $45,000 and $9000 more for the dump body (installed). I'm not sure of the price difference over the 550 I didn't even ask, I have a 550 now and it is not big enough to haul the mini excavator. As far as gas mileage I'm not sure, everything I read says its close to the diesel but that's not a deciding factor for me. The same dealer wanted $13,000 more for the diesel. I am leaning towards buying the f650 but I am going to look at a used 6500 on Wednesday that only has 15,000 miles and it is much cheaper. I will keep you guys posted.
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Marek
12-31-2012, 12:29 PM
Did you drive a 650 with the v 10 ? Sure it would be hard to tell without a load or even body for that matter, just curious how it drove . Sounds like a 10 k differance in chassis price over a gas 550

scagrider22
12-31-2012, 12:52 PM
It seemed to have plenty of power but its hard to tell without the body on it. They will have a body on them next week so I can drive it again to get a better idea how it handles.
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Marek
12-31-2012, 01:17 PM
I would bring a loaded trailer and hook it up to it and take it for a test drive. Hopefully you have a cool dealer. I know ours lets us do whatever we want with in reason. They may like to know themselves how it will do . Nothing like real life experience.

PlantscapeSolutions
12-31-2012, 01:30 PM
Cummins or Cat. I thought V10 was in a F550 or smaller, maybe even F450. Buy not the F650. I maybe wrong.

Cat did not want to deal with DPF issues so they got out of the OTR business several years back. Eventually DPF issues will come to off road equipment as well and Cat will have no choice.

At 15K per year I would say the gas motor is going to eat you alive. Ford only speculated about the 10% number and that is likely an unloaded speculation. We all know when you load down a gasser the MPG gap between it and an oil burner gets much, much larger. This is due to the fact the 6.7 makes max torque at about 1600 rpms and the gasser will likely be around 3000 rpms.

I think you will see Fords gasser experiment will be short lived. As the economy improves the price of gas will go up and people will not touch a medium duty gasser. GM tried this experiment with the 496 V-8 and it failed. As the economy improves business's will also worry less about surviving the short term and will be thinking more about sound long term investments like a Diesel with lower operating costs.

The resale value of a gasser will also be crap where the Diesel with give you back a chunk of the initial investment at resale. At 100K I bet you will recoup most of the investment and be ahead of the game if you sold your truck. If your allowed to do DPF deletes in your area you can save even more money. You do not need to rack up 200K miles or even close to justify the cost of a Cummins. For Ford guys who canít stand the medium duty rated Cummins 6.7 being Fords engine of choice over Fordís own 6.7 donít expect that to change any time soon.

Here's a link (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/manufacturing-america-europe/ford-6-7-liter-diesel-failure-253917/#post1894900) to some 6.7 F450 & F550 failures.

scagrider22
12-31-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't know much about the dpf deletes but I will research it some more. I have not had great luck with diesel trucks even when bought new, especially fords! But I know the cummins is a great engine. I honestly don't think 15k miles is very much for a commercial vehicle, some of the other trucks we have average 35-40k miles and they are gas. If I buy this truck it will be fords last chance to gain me back as a customer, I had a 6.0 lol
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PlantscapeSolutions
12-31-2012, 04:16 PM
I don't know much about the dpf deletes but I will research it some more. I have not had great luck with diesel trucks even when bought new, especially fords! But I know the cummins is a great engine. I honestly don't think 15k miles is very much for a commercial vehicle, some of the other trucks we have average 35-40k miles and they are gas. If I buy this truck it will be fords last chance to gain me back as a customer, I had a 6.0 lol
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Fords 6.0 and to a lesser extent the 6.4 made a lot of die hard blue oval guys into Cummins or Dmax owners. The really die hard Ford guys with lots of cash even paid places like Destroked to repower their Fords with Cummins power.

The biggest thing you need to think about is the cost per mile to operate, the total number of miles the vehicle will have when sold, and the resale value. Don't let the short term saving cost you dearly in the long run. The day that gasser rolls off the Ford lot it's going to be worth $10,000 less.

LindblomRJ
12-31-2012, 04:31 PM
When you get into the 650 and 750 series that is a whole different league of truck. The v10 is a great engine. I have drove one in a F550 and it flies down the road

Cummins and Cat where options in the bigger trucks for many years. Is it worth the extra 5 to 10 K for a diesel? Yes, if you're logging many miles or need the torque. If you are hauling equipment and materials into a site and parking it, then yes, I'd look at gas. I'd even consider a gas converted to propane like a Schwans truck. With a V10 You will have to get the RPMs run up to get the power and torque.

scagrider22
12-31-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm not concerned with the resale value nearly as much as I'm worried about the diesel being broke down. I plan to keep the truck for 10 years so resale is not a factor. My 550 has a v-10 and it sucks gas but it has never broke down and that is what's important to me, (my chevy 8.1 has never broke down either)I just hope to hear from a 650 v10 owner so I can hear how it does pulling equipment and hauling stone. If it can't handle the work then I will probably look at International.
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gallihergreen
12-31-2012, 05:47 PM
http://m.trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_1206_2012_ford_f_650_dump_truck_first_test/index.html
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tnmtn
12-31-2012, 06:11 PM
for what your looking for I think you will be fine with a gas engine. I would suggest looking at more used trucks. The used 6500 series trucks are a dime a dozen and very inexpensive to own. The industrial gas engines can handle higher milage it seems than personal vehicles. I have seen many for well under $15,000. the savings can pay for a lot of repairs and gas. If it doesn't work out for you then your not out much money either.

Marek
12-31-2012, 08:15 PM
Other than a DT 466 I wouldnt touch an international. look at the great motors they built for Ford including the legendary 6.0 and 6.4

scagrider22
12-31-2012, 09:02 PM
I wouldn't ever buy an international without the dt466. Most internationals around here have them.
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hosejockey2002
01-01-2013, 09:35 PM
If your allowed to do DPF deletes in your area you can save even more money.

That's a good one. You're not "allowed" to do DPF deletes anywhere. It's against federal law to tamper with or remove emission equipment on any vehicle, anywhere. If you are in an area where they don't do emission testing you can probably get away with it-for now, that is if you don't mind giving up your factory warranty. Hopefully in a few years you will be able to buy a diesel truck again that you don't have to fiddle around with to make it get good mpg and reliability.

PlantscapeSolutions
01-01-2013, 11:20 PM
That's a good one. You're not "allowed" to do DPF deletes anywhere. It's against federal law to tamper with or remove emission equipment on any vehicle, anywhere. If you are in an area where they don't do emission testing you can probably get away with it-for now, that is if you don't mind giving up your factory warranty. Hopefully in a few years you will be able to buy a diesel truck again that you don't have to fiddle around with to make it get good mpg and reliability.

There is an entire industry that caters to the software and hardware required to do DPF deletes. My 09' is deleted mostly just to wring out an extra 2 mpg's. Plus you do not get oil dilution issues that require oil changes every 3-5K miles. If your deleted you can do 10-15K oil changes by using more expensive synthetic oil.

There are lot of hot shotters out there with 300-400K on DPF trucks from 2007.5 and later. Reliability has never been much of an issue with the Dmax and Cummins engines. The blue oval stamped international engines are what has hurt the reputation of Diesel engines the most.

Some of us Diesel guys just like to make our trucks better or have a desire for more power. With gas engines it cost a fortune to get more power out of them but with Diesels it's so cheap it can be hard to avoid the temptation.

If you own a Ford 6.0, 6.4, or even a 6.7 if it's in a F450-F550 you'd better not delete since the warranty could be worth well over $10K. If you have a Cummins or even Dmax the chances of needing any expensive warranty work is slim. If you delete early you will save as much as $3000+ by the time you hit 100K where the warranty would expire. Saving three G's makes deleting even easier.

I don't always come to a full stop at stop signs, I often exceed the speed limit by 5 mph, and I drive a DPF deleted vehicle. I have yet to lose sleep over this Thumbs Up.

dbear
01-02-2013, 09:41 AM
From H&S Press Release:

November 13, 2012
Due to our dialogue with governmental agencies within the United States, H&S Performance, LLC has decided to voluntarily suspend production of all tuning devices and EGR/DPF modification kits, effective immediately...
http://www.hsperformance.com/press-release/

They won't be the only ones. The law makes it illegal for any DPF delete manufacture and sale.

Section 203 of the CLEAN AIR ACT:
(a) Enumerated prohibitions
The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited—...
(3)
(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;...
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522

scagrider22
01-02-2013, 09:46 AM
You must be from California, who cares I just want a reliable truck!
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dbear
01-02-2013, 10:21 AM
You must be from California, who cares I just want a reliable truck!
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And you must not be very observant: Location: Hilton, NY. Also, I find it inane that you would attempt to belittle a post that held only factual information and absolutely no indication of opinion, either pro or con, regarding DPF.

The point of my post was simply that this vast aftermarket business and its associated support network will be disappearing very quickly. It has to has mandated by law. Consequently, do not bank on being able to avoid emission testing for inspection purposes for much longer regardless of where you live.

PlantscapeSolutions
01-02-2013, 11:06 AM
You must be from California, who cares I just want a reliable truck!
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That's funny. H&S should have done what Mads Electronics did with it's Smarty. Mads never sold or flaunted a device for DPF deleting. You had to buy the device and then you had the ability to download the ME (middle east) tune for DPF deleting. Mads is in Italy not the U.S. as well so they can't be shut down easily.

I think it was Hypertech that pulled the plug on delete stuff a year or two ago because they could feel the heat. It's interesting that H&S has not been pulled from the retail market and you can still buy them.

When I got my CDL and my truck was bumped to a commercial inspection sticker here in Texas it was supposed to be inspected for all emissions equipment. But lets just say I know a guy.

If you do not live in a city where smog testing is done they do not even check for gas emissions equipment here for a regular inspection. Prior to doing my delete I talked to a local inspection guy and he told me it's not his job to inspect for removed emissions equipment on gas or Diesel trucks for a regular inspection. Another example of Texas giving the Feds the bird.

scagrider22
01-02-2013, 11:23 AM
I'm on a cell phone, it doesn't show locations! I came here ask for info on a specific truck not get into a diesel debate.
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scagrider22
01-02-2013, 11:25 AM
Besides, New York, California, same thing...
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dbear
01-02-2013, 02:21 PM
...I came here ask for info on a specific truck not get into a diesel debate.
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Then why did you, and more to point, why did you feel compelled to comment on a post containing only facts?

dbear
01-02-2013, 02:22 PM
Besides, New York, California, same thing...
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Whatever, dude.:laugh:

scagrider22
01-02-2013, 02:35 PM
I could honestly care less about diesel emissions, that is one of the reasons I like the idea of a v10 f650. If I did buy another diesel I would look into the dpf delete and I still wouldn't care about the emissions.

Marek
01-03-2013, 08:48 PM
My dealer said he has not sold one yet but would be surprised to see 5 mpg out of the 650 v 10 combo. But it will spend less time in the shop

scagrider22
01-03-2013, 10:30 PM
That is exactly why I'm interested in one, less time in the shop!
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PlantscapeSolutions
01-04-2013, 12:21 AM
My dealer said he has not sold one yet but would be surprised to see 5 mpg out of the 650 v 10 combo. But it will spend less time in the shop

It's a Cummins 6.7 so I do not see where spending time in the shop versus a gasser is going to come into play. The 6.7 should be using DEF which the C&C Rams have been using for several years. This is a super reliable setup which is why Ford offers it to begin with.

From what you mentioned prior you going to put 150,000 miles on the truck over ten years. As long as you wash the truck in winter frequently it should be in decent shape and have good resale value 10 years from now. If you can afford it you appear to be easily be in the cost effective range for buying an oil burner.

I think it would benefit you to go on Cummins Forum and see what the C&C guys with 2008 and later 3500, 4500, and 5500 Rams have to say about the DEF 6.7 that has been in use for several years. Instead of speculating about it here where there are no DEF 6.7 users. I think you will find the feedback you get will make you feel very confident about the 6.7.

scagrider22
06-03-2013, 12:52 AM
The Ford dealer finally dropped the truck off last Friday! It towed my U55 really well. I have not had a load in it yet but will tomorrow.

gallihergreen
06-03-2013, 12:56 AM
Nice truck.
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ClassicLawnCareInc
06-03-2013, 08:48 AM
How much did it cost in the end? And whats the gvw?

scagrider22
06-03-2013, 11:27 PM
$55k

The gvw is 26000. I hauled and towed with it today, I'm pretty impressed how it handled the weight.
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ClassicLawnCareInc
06-04-2013, 06:37 AM
Thats not a bad price and no cdl....hmmm

Dually00-00
06-04-2013, 07:18 PM
What do you scale in at empty ?

PROPERTYLAWNSERVICELLC
06-04-2013, 08:11 PM
The Ford dealer finally dropped the truck off last Friday! It towed my U55 really well. I have not had a load in it yet but will tomorrow.

nice truck

Green-Man
06-17-2013, 09:21 PM
From H&S Press Release:

November 13, 2012
Due to our dialogue with governmental agencies within the United States, H&S Performance, LLC has decided to voluntarily suspend production of all tuning devices and EGR/DPF modification kits, effective immediately...
http://www.hsperformance.com/press-release/

They won't be the only ones. The law makes it illegal for any DPF delete manufacture and sale.

Section 203 of the CLEAN AIR ACT:
(a) Enumerated prohibitions
The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibitedó...
(3)
(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;...
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522
That's why I bought a smarty when it had the deletes in it and I don't even have a truck yet :)
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scagrider22
06-17-2013, 11:00 PM
What do you scale in at empty ?

I can't remember exactly but it was a little over 12,000
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alldayrj
06-17-2013, 11:01 PM
Did you geta rough mpg yet? That's an incredible empty weight especially for that heavy duty gallon body. What are the dimensions on the bed? My truck is 14500 empty so off the bat you're hauling 2500 more

scagrider22
06-17-2013, 11:04 PM
Did you get an empty weight and a rough mpg yet?

Not sure about the mileage, it's def not good... But that was expected. The bed is 10.5' long and the sides are 30" tall ( 36" gate) not sure how wide.
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scagrider22
06-18-2013, 01:27 PM
6 mpg around town towing and hauling.
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Green-Man
06-18-2013, 11:19 PM
6 mpg around town towing and hauling.
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ouch:dizzy:

scagrider22
06-18-2013, 11:22 PM
ouch:dizzy:

The diesel isn't much better...
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fordsrule
06-19-2013, 03:32 PM
We were getting 4 to 4.5 mpg in the 09 Chevy 7500 with the 8.1 and 5+2 speed. It was set up with a tag axle and we were legal to 53000 with a tare wait of 21000. We probably grossed out around 80000 when loaded with material in the bed and Tri axle 25 ton trailer with brick and machines on it.
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F4rm3rj03
06-22-2013, 07:24 PM
6 mpg around town towing and hauling.
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Thanks! Very valuable for me.
I'm considering replacing our C5500 8100 that gets around 6.5mpg. The thought of a slight mpg drop for more capacity is exciting. Especially for the price you paid!

scagrider22
06-24-2013, 09:24 PM
I currently have a c5500 with the 8.1 and the ford is a way more capable truck. You will be happy with the ford if the Chevy does what you need it to do.
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