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MOturkey
12-28-2012, 11:55 PM
I went ahead and bought a Gravely 460 today with the Kohler 29 EFI. They had a Kawasaki in stock as well, and although I've had no problems with the Kawasaki engines on my other mowers, I wanted to give the EFI a try. I'm just curious if any of you used this engine this past season and if you checked the fuel consumption rate? Thanks.

BigTrucks4Life
12-29-2012, 02:07 AM
I was looking at a similar set up. How much did your dealer come off msrp? I hear gravely dealers are very flexible with prices.

FastMan
12-29-2012, 02:09 AM
Been using it for a few seasons now, on a toro G3 60 inch, and getting gph around 1. And I'm at 8500 ft elevation.

puppypaws
12-29-2012, 08:29 AM
I went ahead and bought a Gravely 460 today with the Kohler 29 EFI. They had a Kawasaki in stock as well, and although I've had no problems with the Kawasaki engines on my other mowers, I wanted to give the EFI a try. I'm just curious if any of you used this engine this past season and if you checked the fuel consumption rate? Thanks.

I am not saying this will be the best engine you've ever owned (it could be mechanically defective), but I will say there will be the difference of night and day between this fuel injected engine when comparing to any standard carburetor type engine you've owned previously.

Once you own and operate a fuel injected mower, you would hate the thoughts of going back, I did. The last 72" Super Z I bought this fall was only offered with a carburetor engine, so I was forced to take the 35 hp Kawasaki FX1000V. I have a 2006 year model Super Z with a Kohler 28 EFI (new engine, maybe 20 hrs.), and I can walk outside right now with the temperature around 40°, raise the throttle lever on the fuel injected mower, turn the key switch, and it will start instantly. I can then walk over to the new mower, pull the choke fully up, turn the key switch, and it may or may not fire immediately, but once it does I must play with the choke a few seconds to keep it running.

Once it is warm there is no problem, but this is something I've not needed to do in six years. The 28 efi I just replaced never failed to crank and run perfectly throughout its entire life, not once did it ever fail to crank if the engine turned over twice. Most people would still be running the engine I replaced, but I found some weakness in one cylinder, needed to spend some money before the year end, so I had everything replaced. My wife (and myself) liked this mower so much, I had a new engine, new hydraulic pumps and wheel motors, new clutch, new spindles, new wiring, new hoses, new control panel, new seat, new fuse holder and relays installed.

I would not have done this if not for the fact I know how meticulous my mechanic is, look at this picture and pay attention to detail; such as routing of hoses and wires, and how he secured everything extremely well, even to the point of installing new plastic sheathing around the wiring.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=259997&stc=1&d=1352418457

weaver
12-29-2012, 10:27 AM
I went ahead and bought a Gravely 460 today with the Kohler 29 EFI. They had a Kawasaki in stock as well, and although I've had no problems with the Kawasaki engines on my other mowers, I wanted to give the EFI a try. I'm just curious if any of you used this engine this past season and if you checked the fuel consumption rate? Thanks.

Don't forget the pics....:waving:

MOturkey
12-29-2012, 10:56 AM
I was looking at a similar set up. How much did your dealer come off msrp? I hear gravely dealers are very flexible with prices.

I never quibble over prices with my dealer. He treats me well, and has done me some favors in the past. The unit I bought was a demo, they didn't have a "new" unit in stock, and I was wanting to purchase before the first of the year for tax purposes. But, to answer your question, I think I bought it for about $2,200 below list price.

MOturkey
12-29-2012, 10:58 AM
Don't forget the pics....:waving:

I'm letting the dealer keep it until spring, so I won't have to try and cram it in my garage with all my other stuff.

ELS Landscape
12-29-2012, 12:42 PM
I'm letting the dealer keep it until spring, so I won't have to try and cram it in my garage with all my other stuff.

You gotta put it into service to claim the tax deduction. Need some Pics for the IRS :laugh:

puppypaws
12-29-2012, 01:28 PM
You gotta put it into service to claim the tax deduction. Need some Pics for the IRS :laugh:

You are correct, I went through an extensive IRS audit this year, the kind so extreme they come and physically look at everything you own, make you prove every penny spent, and then show why it was spent. This is a tremendous amount of work to provide all documentation required by these people, I keep very good books, and was required to go outside what you would believe necessary to satisfy their wants. I bought a piece of equipment late in the fall of 2011, and I had to jump through several hoops for the IRS before they allowed the in-service deduction.

This is the second audit I've been through in my life, and by far the toughest. I would not wish an audit of this magnitude on my worst enemy.

ELS Landscape
12-29-2012, 01:37 PM
You are correct, I went through an extensive IRS audit this year, the kind so extreme they come and physically look at everything you own, make you prove every penny spent, and then show why it was spent. This is a tremendous amount of work to provide all documentation required by these people, I keep very good books, and was required to go outside what you would believe necessary to satisfy their wants. I bought a piece of equipment late in the fall of 2011, and I had to jump through several hoops for the IRS before they allowed the in-service deduction.

This is the second audit I've been through in my life, and by far the toughest. I would not wish an audit of this magnitude on my worst enemy.

I should have used this :cry: instead of this :laugh:

I have not been through a physical audit before but several paper distant audits. I have a buddy that has at his place of business. He keeps meticulous records. I suppose I could buy a few more file cabinets and add another room of my house to the home office deduction just for storage.

weaver
12-29-2012, 01:44 PM
I'm letting the dealer keep it until spring, so I won't have to try and cram it in my garage with all my other stuff.

Hey what mower did you replace when buying this one? Did you get that cool suspension seat on it ..

JDGlandscape
02-02-2013, 04:33 PM
does anyone have much experience with these motors with what they are rated for? I know GMLC has the gravely 52" cut with the smaller engine and it is fine.. I am more wondering about the gravely 460 with either the kohler efi or the kawasaki 850..

I have heard they have had trouble with the 850?.. I just dont want to be underpowered bagging with it on hills

retrodog
02-02-2013, 09:11 PM
I ordered my first 29efis for stock cause i heard so many good things about them. I will let you guys know how they hold up. $8500 retail for 61" puts it up there a little for us with no suspension, but we'll see how they go...
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puppypaws
02-03-2013, 08:03 AM
I ordered my first 29efis for stock cause i heard so many good things about them. I will let you guys know how they hold up. $8500 retail for 61" puts it up there a little for us with no suspension, but we'll see how they go...
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Take my word for it, electronic fuel injection is far superior in every way to conventional fuel delivery, and Kohler uses the best (Delphi, same as in your vehicle) components for their system.

This does not mean you can't have problems, because anything mechanical is prone, but it does mean you will get the best fuel economy, the best ease of starting, and the best performance from your engine. You will achieve more feel of power due to no throttle lag (as with a conventional governor), this means the engine senses load much faster, enabling the fuel to be delivered quicker; which in return keeps the top end operating rpm's from dropping as easily.

Ridin' Green
02-03-2013, 03:34 PM
does anyone have much experience with these motors with what they are rated for? I know GMLC has the gravely 52" cut with the smaller engine and it is fine.. I am more wondering about the gravely 460 with either the kohler efi or the kawasaki 850..

I have heard they have had trouble with the 850?.. I just dont want to be underpowered bagging with it on hills

I'd take he FX850 any day over the 29EFI Kohler. Kohler is still labeling their engines with the old rating system stickers which is false advertising IMO. The 29 efi is actually only 25.3 HP/38.7 ft lbs torque using the new system of rating, while the FX850 is true rated at 27hp/44.6 ft lbs torque.

I agree on having efi when possible, but not unless it is providing the same HP output as a carbed engine.


http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/productDetail.htm?productNumber=Command PRO EFI ECV749

http://kawpower.com/engines/fx/fx850v

puppypaws
02-04-2013, 09:07 AM
I'd take he FX850 any day over the 29EFI Kohler. Kohler is still labeling their engines with the old rating system stickers which is false advertising IMO. The 29 efi is actually only 25.3 HP/38.7 ft lbs torque using the new system of rating, while the FX850 is true rated at 27hp/44.6 ft lbs torque.

I agree on having efi when possible, but not unless it is providing the same HP output as a carbed engine.


http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/productDetail.htm?productNumber=Command PRO EFI ECV749

http://kawpower.com/engines/fx/fx850v

You can add 2 hp to an efi engine, in other words, a 29 efi will perform equally to a 31 hp carburetor type engine rated by the SAE J1940 standard. This means with Kohler still using to old hp rating standard (SAE J1940), they are allowed to list their hp rating to within 15% of actual checked hp without an air cleaner or muffler. Their hp may not fall the full 15%, but only means this is allowed.

By explaining that fuel injection adds hp to an engine from a performance standard, you will understand why the FX1000V engine I have on my 72" is listed at 35 hp, whereas when you move to the FX1000V-DFI you gain 2 hp, and now have the fuel injected model which Kawasaki lists at 37 hp.

Ridin' Green
02-04-2013, 11:24 AM
You can add 2 hp to an efi engine, in other words, a 29 efi will perform equally to a 31 hp carburetor type engine rated by the SAE J1940 standard. This means with Kohler still using to old hp rating standard (SAE J1940), they are allowed to list their hp rating to within 15% of actual checked hp without an air cleaner or muffler. Their hp may not fall the full 15%, but only means this is allowed.

By explaining that fuel injection adds hp to an engine from a performance standard, you will understand why the FX1000V engine I have on my 72" is listed at 35 hp, whereas when you move to the FX1000V-DFI you gain 2 hp, and now have the fuel injected model which Kawasaki lists at 37 hp.

I took the new HP numbers for each engine right from their sites puppy. The 29 Kohler is still not the equal of the FX850 even though it is fuel injected. The torque numbers are even farther apart.

I'll be glad when the day finally comes where they are all EFI/DFI.

puppypaws
02-04-2013, 06:04 PM
I took the new HP numbers for each engine right from their sites puppy. The 29 Kohler is still not the equal of the FX850 even though it is fuel injected. The torque numbers are even farther apart.

I'll be glad when the day finally comes where they are all EFI/DFI.

The Kohler 29 efi is listed at 44.3 lbs. of torque, and the FX 850 is listed at 44.6, really no difference. This tells me the engines will be pretty equal in power, the difference will be seen in reaction time to load; which will make the 29 efi feel stronger.

The method (SAE J1940) Kohler uses will allow them 15% less than true hp, this is not to say the engines actual hp will be 15% less, only that it is possible.

I was running a 60" Hustler Super Z with a 25 hp Kawasaki when my new 60" Hustler Super Z with a 27 hp Kohler was delivered. I pulled out of the grass I was cutting when the truck drove up, after swapping out, I went back into the same exact grass I was cutting, with the exact same mower, the only difference being; the new mower had a 27 hp Kohler engine, whereas the year old mower had a 25 hp Kawasaki. The grass I was cutting would cause the governor to react on the Kawasaki, the new 27 hp Kohler never changed sounds. I new immediately the Kohler was definitely showing it was 2 hp stronger, but this was also during the time Kawasaki was using the SAE J1940 hp rating method.

I was cutting with the same 60" Hustler Super Z that had the 27 hp Kohler; when the truck drove up delivering my new 60" Hustler Super Z with a Kohler 28 efi engine. The 28 efi is nothing but the same 27 hp Kohler engine I had previously; that has now been fuel injected. The same; as I could tell a difference in power with the 27 Kohler being stronger than the 25 Kawasaki, I could tell even more difference in the 28 efi feeling considerably more powerful than the previous 27 Kohler I was running.

There was so much difference, I started paying close attention to how the engine reacted in different size grass. I could tell immediately there was not a noticeable difference when the engine required more fuel for extra power, there was no noticeable lag time as seen with a conventional governor. The efi would hold the high end of the engines operating rpms more easily than would the carburetor type engine. This told me the efi was sensing much more quickly its need for fuel, and this in itself caused the added power to feel much smoother in transition.

The Kohler 29 efi should perform as a 31 hp engine by the SAE J1940 rating method due to fuel injection alone, with the worse case scenario being a 15% hp drag, this would bring the efi back into a 26.5 hp range, so close to the FX850 you would never know a difference.

This is why you see the Kohler 29 efi, which in actuality may be rated at 26.5 hp by the SAE J1995 method Kawasaki now uses; being listed at 44.3 lbs. of torque, and the Kawasaki 27 hp FX850V being listed at 44.6 lbs. They will both be pretty equal in power, with the difference showing up in better fuel economy and quicker response time with the fuel injected Kohler.

I own both the carburetor type Kawasaki, as well as the fuel injected Kohler, meaning I have no preference. I am only educating people on the differences, which comes from my hands on experience.

Ridin' Green
02-04-2013, 06:11 PM
The 29 efi is actually only 25.3 HP/38.7 ft lbs torque using the new system of rating, while the FX850 is true rated at 27hp/44.6 ft lbs torque

puppy, you're not listening to/reading me here. The numbers I posted in my first post are not my "figures", they are taken right off of Kawi's and Kohler's sites. They (Kohler) show the J1940 rating for the main listing, but below it at the bottom of each spec chart is the J1995 rating, and they are as I posted above. The 29EFI Kohler does not equal the FX850 by any rating measure, especially in torque.

puppypaws
02-04-2013, 09:06 PM
puppy, you're not listening to/reading me here. The numbers I posted in my first post are not my "figures", they are taken right off of Kawi's and Kohler's sites. They (Kohler) show the J1940 rating for the main listing, but below it at the bottom of each spec chart is the J1995 rating, and they are as I posted above. The 29EFI Kohler does not equal the FX850 by any rating measure, especially in torque.

I see exactly what you are saying, and you are correct...

QUOTE:

1) Max Power (hp) and Max Torque (lbs ft) specifications for Kohler general purpose engines are rated pursuant to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1940 based on gross output testing performed according to SAE J1995 without the air cleaner and muffler. Actual engine power and torque are lower and affected by accessories (air cleaner, exhaust, charging, cooling, fuel pump, etc.), application, engine speed, ambient operating conditions (temperature, humidity and altitude) and other factors. This J1940 / J1995 rating provides consistent measurement to customers who may want to control the intake and exhaust features of the engine. For more information, contact Kohler Co. Engine Engineering Department. Kohler Co. reserves the right to change product specifications, designs and standard equipment without notice and without incurring obligation.

I am now wondering if Kawasaki is giving correct hp, and honestly don't see how they could unless their engine it is checked with all accessories attached, and knowing all applications are different.

I would think the only fair way hp could be advertised would be if the engine was checked with the air cleaner and muffler attached. We all know you can generate more hp with the air cleaner out, and no muffler.

I would love to hear feedback from someone running the same machine with both engines. I doubt there would be a great deal of difference in feel of power, fuel injection just makes for a stronger and more responsive feeling engine.

Ridin' Green
02-04-2013, 10:56 PM
I see exactly what you are saying, and you are correct...

QUOTE:

1) Max Power (hp) and Max Torque (lbs ft) specifications for Kohler general purpose engines are rated pursuant to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1940 based on gross output testing performed according to SAE J1995 without the air cleaner and muffler. Actual engine power and torque are lower and affected by accessories (air cleaner, exhaust, charging, cooling, fuel pump, etc.), application, engine speed, ambient operating conditions (temperature, humidity and altitude) and other factors. This J1940 / J1995 rating provides consistent measurement to customers who may want to control the intake and exhaust features of the engine. For more information, contact Kohler Co. Engine Engineering Department. Kohler Co. reserves the right to change product specifications, designs and standard equipment without notice and without incurring obligation.

I am now wondering if Kawasaki is giving correct hp, and honestly don't see how they could unless their engine it is checked with all accessories attached, and knowing all applications are different.

I would think the only fair way hp could be advertised would be if the engine was checked with the air cleaner and muffler attached. We all know you can generate more hp with the air cleaner out, and no muffler.

I would love to hear feedback from someone running the same machine with both engines. I doubt there would be a great deal of difference in feel of power, fuel injection just makes for a stronger and more responsive feeling engine.

puppy-
I am not sure if it is still in their writings on this subject, but Kawi was stating in their little piece they had posted on their site about the Critical Power rating, that they were being tested by the group over in Germany, and engines were set up as they would be while in real applications with airbox/filter, and muffler.

puppypaws
02-05-2013, 07:04 AM
I wonder why Kohler would not follow what Kawasaki has done so everyone could be on the same page...this can be somewhat confusing to the buying public. I sure wish someone could explain the reasoning from Kohler's point of view. The end user only wishes to see in hard numbers exactly what they are paying for, and I believe this is what Kawasaki is now attempting to provide. I just have a hard time understanding why one engine manufacturer would provide hp information gathered from one testing procedure, and one from another.

clydebusa
02-05-2013, 08:26 AM
Have the Kohler EFI on two 72" and love it. And like several have stated will convert all to EFI eventually.

puppypaws
02-05-2013, 09:39 AM
Have the Kohler EFI on two 72" and love it. And like several have stated will convert all to EFI eventually.

I love the efi technology, but there have been many scared of trying efi due to fear of the unknown. I have never really understood this for the fact everyone has the same technolgy used in the vehicles they drive everyday, and would never go back to a carburetor mechanical governor setup.

I've been running the Kohler, Bosch efi system since 2006, and have loved everything about it. The new Delphi components Kohler is now implementing are supposedly the best in the industry, the same as used in our vehicle fuel injection. I feel assured you have the new Delphi system, and once anyone ever owns and operates a mower with fuel injection, they never wish to return to the old style fuel delivery.

I have checked a preciously owned Kohler 27 hp engine on the same mower as my 28 efi, and the fuel savings due to the fuel injection was 25 to 30% constantly. The 27 was at 1.3 to 1.4 gph, and I have checked the 28 efi down to .93 gph. The check I did was to physically measure the height of gas in the tank at full, then fill back to the exact same height by ounces; after cutting exactly one measured hour, meaning my check was very accurate.

Ridin' Green
02-05-2013, 11:24 AM
I wonder why Kohler would not follow what Kawasaki has done so everyone could be on the same page...this can be somewhat confusing to the buying public. I sure wish someone could explain the reasoning from Kohler's point of view. The end user only wishes to see in hard numbers exactly what they are paying for, and I believe this is what Kawasaki is now attempting to provide. I just have a hard time understanding why one engine manufacturer would provide hp information gathered from one testing procedure, and one from another.

I'm not sure this will answer your question well enough puppy, but last summer one of the members here sent Kohler an e-mail while we were having a similar discussion about the new ratings system regarding Kawi's vs Kohler etc. He posted the reply from Kohler and it was something very close to this-
"We have always rated the true hp of our engines and follow the current guidlines....etc etc", followed by something along the lines of "we continue to offer our customers the best that they can buy...." type of PR blather. Their reply got several people kinda wired up since it was a typical "cover our butt" type of reply.

I belive they knew they'd have to eventually make the switch in rating systems to avoid losing potential sales, but have tried to make it slowly enough to be able to sell off all remaining inventory of old rating labeled engines already crated and stored. Once that supply is gone, they will most likely switch completely over to the new rating numbers. JMO

ELS Landscape
02-05-2013, 06:43 PM
At the price of gas today, how many hours do you have to run the unit to recover the up cost?
Meaning, I am not going to sell a 1/2 used mower to get better consumption.

puppypaws
02-05-2013, 07:28 PM
At the price of gas today, how many hours do you have to run the unit to recover the up cost?
Meaning, I am not going to sell a 1/2 used mower to get better consumption.

It depends on the dealer price difference...I talked with the Bobcat factory and was told they did not offer the carburetor version of the big block Kawasaki for the fact from doing their own fuel study; they found a difference from 2 gph on the FX1000V (carburetor model), to less than 1.5 gph on the FX1000V-DFI (fuel injected model). They said to them this was a no brainer, especially since they got a good price break from buying so many of the DFI model.

From what they are saying, you could expect 1/2 gph less fuel useage from the DFI, and probably more. They said some of their studies had shown a drop all the way to 1.25 gph.

Lets just use the 1/2 gph less consumption as an example.

8 hr. cutting day you would save 4 gal., this times, lets say $3.50 would equal a savings of $14 per day. Say you can run 32 weeks per cutting season at 40 hrs. per week, this is 32 wks. x 40 hrs. = 1280 hrs. mowing time. Saving $70 per week x 32 wks. = $2240.00 / Just saying for instance the DFI engine option cost $700.00 more than the carburetor model, it would take 10 weeks to pay the difference, but the savings from that point forward would be very significant.

JDGlandscape
02-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Have the Kohler EFI on two 72" and love it. And like several have stated will convert all to EFI eventually.

How are they powerwise for such a big mower? I am trying to find out if they would be powerful enough to use on a 60" cut with a bagger