PDA

View Full Version : Overseeding in Jan?


wegomow
01-03-2013, 03:39 PM
A customer wants me to overseed his lawn with Winter Rye. We are in eastern NC and avg. daily temps have been in mid 50's and avg. nights mid to upper 30's. Also we have had a few frosts and freezes already. Is it too late to overseed?

dKoester
01-03-2013, 04:43 PM
Go for February. You should be fine then.

RigglePLC
01-03-2013, 08:26 PM
According to my experiments it should be OK. Slow of course.
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=392836&page=3

I am planning to do some experiments with newly sprouted rye grass raised inside in containers at room temperature. I will put some of them outside or in a freezer for 24 hours. And bring the containers back inside--will grass be killed? What is your prediction? I will keep an eye on my neighbor's grass that was planted about late October and a second neighbor planted about the first week of November. 30 degrees and 4 inches of snow on the ground at the moment.

I plan to plant some grass every month this winter--and watch the results. Four inches of snow now. I can find the flower pots outside in my garden...but...snow is covering the vacant lot where I have been doing experiments. I will seed on top of snow, but I am not sure how to mark the plots--maybe I can hammer in iron nails with plastic labels. Plots are one square yard. Snow often remains with us until the first week of March--but--we expect a brief thaw in about 4 days. Not sure if we will see our grass in January or February.

Hopefully I will be able to do my chickweed control experiments during a brief thaw this week. Four weed control products to compare. I have transplanted chickweed to containers inside, and it is growing fine now--very small leaves yet. I will move it outside for the actual spraying--and then after the odor has dissipated move it back indoors into my office.

Smallaxe
01-04-2013, 10:31 AM
The freezing of unprotected grasses over a period of time is evidenced every year here in Centro Wisco... Right now all of the perenial grasses are still green and edible by the deer and rodents of the wild... these grasses are under snow that is over a foot deep and that is the reason for it as we have been down below 0 degrees F already this season and haven't gotten out of the teens for a high daytime temperature for quite a while...

Oats will stay green(unprotect) down to 26 degrees is what the local farmers say... Annual Ryegrass(AR) has survived temps in the low teens, that I've witnessed(and likely goes colder as long as it doesn't last too long)... Perennial cool season grasses have stayed green all winter, even w/out snow cover, but turn brown and die in the Spring once the ground starts to thaw...

Once a person understands why this happens, then you'll have the answer to your question...
To me it is silly to wait until February to sow AR in the South, because the reason for AR in the South is for Winter GREEN...

Does your region actually get cold enough to kill AR???
My guess is NO... :)

wegomow
01-04-2013, 11:05 AM
Thank you for you responses. Riggle PLC are you planting sprouting the grasses outside as well as indoors in containers?
I understand the grass will survive the winter, will it germinate is really the question I should have asked. The reason for planting is to prevent soil erosion on his lawn.

dKoester
01-04-2013, 07:28 PM
I was just considering germination time. It was 25 last night. All my crops were fine uncovered. Its going to warm up this week. Go ahead and put it down.

RigglePLC
01-04-2013, 08:16 PM
Some perennial ryegrass seed was planted in a container plunged into my garden soil on November 17, 2012. After 30 days the seed had sprouted to about 1/8 inch tall.
You can view the temperature records here:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KGRR/2012/11/3/MonthlyHistory.html

Compare your temps with ours. I computed the average temperature...Nov 17 to Dec 17, 2012. It was 40 degrees F.

Snow covers it now.

wegomow
01-05-2013, 07:17 AM
I will get it seeded asap. Thanks again.

agrostis
01-05-2013, 08:50 PM
If your main goal is erosion control, then seeding with rye is about your only choice. You will have warm enough day's to get germination but it is going to be slow. You need to keep the water on those seedling's to get the most growth. 1/4" - 1/2" tall ryegrass is what you can expect, but that's what happen's when you overseed at the wrong time of year. In the spring though, that grass will take off and will seriously compete with whatever you have overseeded, that will degrade whatever grass is there now, then that rye is going to check out in May, just be aware of that.

Smallaxe
01-06-2013, 10:02 AM
If your main goal is erosion control, then seeding with rye is about your only choice. You will have warm enough day's to get germination but it is going to be slow. You need to keep the water on those seedling's to get the most growth. 1/4" - 1/2" tall ryegrass is what you can expect, but that's what happen's when you overseed at the wrong time of year. In the spring though, that grass will take off and will seriously compete with whatever you have overseeded, that will degrade whatever grass is there now, then that rye is going to check out in May, just be aware of that.

Now again it seems we have a consistancy problem...

My understanding about Southern Grasses is that they go dormant when it becomes a little chilly in the Fall so people had gotten in the habit of sowing cool season grasses to keep their lawns green for the Winter...

In the Spring/Summer it becomes too hot and the Warm Season grasses flourish on the dead bodies of the cool season grasses that could tolerate the heat...

Is this the procedure??? or not???
I suppose I don't need to know,,, but it is a curiosity... :)

agrostis
01-06-2013, 10:58 AM
[QUOTE=Smallaxe;4634604]Now again it seems we have a consistancy problem...

My understanding about Southern Grasses is that they go dormant when it becomes a little chilly in the Fall so people had gotten in the habit of sowing cool season grasses to keep their lawns green for the Winter...

In the Spring/Summer it becomes too hot and the Warm Season grasses flourish on the dead bodies of the cool season grasses that could tolerate the heat...

Is this the procedure??? or not???
I suppose I don't need to know,,, but it is a curiosity... :)[/QUOTE


Seeding for erosion control is totally different than overseeding for color, and this sound's like a case of erosion control. Warm season grass's don't flourish on cool season grass's. It cause's major problem's for warm season grass, competition is the big one. If you overseed with a cool season grass too heavily you can really set back your bermuda, zoysia or st. augustine. I'm a big fan of not overseeding at all, but a lot of homeowner's like that winter color. Seeding at a low rate is the key to making this work right.

RigglePLC
01-06-2013, 11:42 AM
Overseeding is fine...BUT...the transition back to Bermuda as the rye dies out in the spring is problematical.
Not my opinion, according to Fred Yelverton:
http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_removing_overseeded_ryegrass/

It appears that considerable skill and experience is needed--along with selection of a perennial or annual rye that will fade out quickly in spring.

And:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CHwQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ag.auburn.edu%2Fagrn%2Fweedsci%2Fdocuments%2Foverseedingbermudagrass-fieldscience.pdf&ei=qKbpUJHOJInuqwHn7oGIBg&usg=AFQjCNF_9lfgsiHth5E-T-He4Fwh2gYgyg&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.aWM

agrostis
01-06-2013, 12:42 PM
Overseeding is fine...BUT...the transition back to Bermuda as the rye dies out in the spring is problematical.
Not my opinion, according to Fred Yelverton:
http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_removing_overseeded_ryegrass/

It appears that considerable skill and experience is needed--along with selection of a perennial or annual rye that will fade out quickly in spring.

And:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CHwQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ag.auburn.edu%2Fagrn%2Fweedsci%2Fdocuments%2Foverseedingbermudagrass-fieldscience.pdf&ei=qKbpUJHOJInuqwHn7oGIBg&usg=AFQjCNF_9lfgsiHth5E-T-He4Fwh2gYgyg&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.aWM

There you go. You might get a green to green transition one year in twenty, the rest of the time, it look's like a$$, that's another big problem.

Smallaxe
01-07-2013, 08:57 AM
Now I understand it... thanks... :)

RigglePLC
01-09-2013, 09:25 PM
I planted Scotts perennial ryegrass in plastic containers of potting soil inside the house. After grass sprouts were about 1-inch tall I moved one container to outside at 28 degrees for 24 hours. The second container was moved to a freezer at 19 degrees for 20 hours, (not cold enough), and then moved to a freezer at minus 4 degrees F. for four hours.

48 hours later the seedlings (left) held at 28 degrees were not damaged. Sprouts held at 19 and then four hours... at minus 4 degrees F. (right) were severely damaged. (Perhaps not killed--this will be determined after a few days.)

Smallaxe
01-10-2013, 06:53 AM
Ground protection is something you can't get in cups... their entire root system is wrapped in frost like a popsicle, whereas the roots in the earth have opportunity to dormant as the earth feezes over time... the greenery under the snow now, will turn brown when the snow leaves in the Spring, but the roots will be protected from dehydration and alive...

I would guess that the cups you put in the freezer had extensive root damage and dehydration...

RigglePLC
01-13-2013, 10:52 PM
I reused the left over sprouts from last week. And I tested the ryegrass in the cup that was healthy, and about 2 inches tall...by placing it in a mild freezer at 19 degrees for 24 hours. The grass was injured. Most of the time it collapsed and bent over at a point about a half inch above the soil surface. I am assuming this was the delicate area of most rapid growth. And yes, the soil froze hard. I am not sure if a more gradual onset of cold would have allowed the new grass to adapt to the cold. Clearly a sudden cold snap to 19 degrees is detrimental.

ed2hess
01-14-2013, 09:30 PM
Overseeding is fine...BUT...the transition back to Bermuda as the rye dies out in the spring is problematical.
Not my opinion, according to Fred Yelverton:
http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_removing_overseeded_ryegrass/

It appears that considerable skill and experience is needed--along with selection of a perennial or annual rye that will fade out quickly in spring.

I never had any problem getting the rye to die back in bermuda. We fertilized the perennial rye heavy and when temp got to 90F the rye would disappear. And rye does fine when subjected to freezes. It may get a little brown but hardly ever affected it.