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deerewashed
01-13-2013, 06:38 PM
Hey guys. I always come around here every now and then. Just thought i would get some input for pros like you.

How do you guys buying used equipment cope with buying used equipment from really far distances from you, and also from private sellers? It seems like such a gamble for a purchase over 20, 30, and sometimes even 40k.

Also, I dont want this to become a battle of the brands. But i know some brands are more prone than others to have problems around certain periods of its life. I know there are many variables in the life span of a machine. But i would still like some input.

We currently rent a mustang mtl16, and sometimes mtl25 track loader, as well as an me3503 mini excavator. We rent these during the landscaping season, and use them AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, due to the hassles of rentals, and daily prices etc. Between the track loaders, and mini excavator, we spend about 15k a season on these two machines alone. I am confident i can find over 20k worth of work if we owned.

This 20k may seem low, but we would only put around 100, to 150 hours a year on each machine. Dont question my pricing etc. I know how to charge for what i do, and it works well.

So down to the questions.

How many hours should i cut off at when searching for a piece of used equipment? 1400 hours? 1600 hours? 2000 hours?

what brands provided the most bang for your buck with longevity, future problems/maintenance and price?

i Know i can spend 80k and get 2 solid machine, but i really only want to spend 40k right now. Should i spend 40k or less and get one of the 2 machines i need, and keep renting the other until its paid off?

I am looking for a 3.5 to 5 ton excavator, and up to a 100hp track loader. I wish i could get buy with wheels for the price point. But it simply will not work.


*****
I know i may not be clear as to what i am looking for from you guys, but any input/help, and any questions would help.

If this isnt clear let me know, if im crazy let me know, if i talk to much let me know. I will try and fix it.

Thanks!
Hank

tnmtn
01-13-2013, 07:09 PM
what kind of work in particular do you use the equipment for? tight quarters, minimal turf damage, clearing, grading, on pavement, for example.

deerewashed
01-13-2013, 08:00 PM
primarily use on newly built or renovated houses. Turf damage therefore is not a concern. Both machines are used for grading. track loader is primarily used for B&B and offloading trucks. Moving large amounts of material, whether it be loam, or fill, or stone; also it may move pallets of sod from front yard to back on a rare occasion.
On occasion tight quaters, but if it cant fit the conventional tail swing 3.5 ton machine,we will do it by hand. Usually all the areas we can fit the 3.5 ton machine we can fit up to a 5 ton machine. Mini excavator will be used for grading, trenching, occasionally stumping. digging holes for large trees etc. Moving plant material, and ocasionally removing boulders, and ripping up concrete/pavement(note: we usually rent a jackhammer for this)

deerewashed
01-13-2013, 08:03 PM
ALL of our work is in the landscape design and build business. Design/build landscapes, also a lot of hardscaping as well. We only use natural stone, nothing usually comes on a pallet, except for flag stone and flat stones. all of our work is medium to large projects that take from a week to up to a few months. (every 2 years or so we get a project that takes a year or two.)

4 seasons lawn&land
01-13-2013, 08:06 PM
You describe a very similar situation to mine. I would say I rented a little less than you and do a little less hours than you on each machine. You can tell how much I dont like renting, it doesnt work. I went with under 1000 hours on a skid and under 2000 on a mini. Ended up at 800 and 1800.

deerewashed
01-13-2013, 08:11 PM
if you dont mind me asking how much did you pay for your machines? did you buy them locally? do they both have cabs? I would like a cab on the mini excavator, but have gotten away without renting a machine with one, and could continue to do so.

larryinalabama
01-13-2013, 08:31 PM
I would invest in a plane ticket before I spent 20k, I did spent 11k one time without seeing the equiptment but it only had 7 hours on it.

AEL
01-13-2013, 08:36 PM
I personally dont like to buy used equipment unless it has really low hours, and has been well looked after. I would never buy a machine without seeing it , and going over the entire unit.

4 seasons lawn&land
01-13-2013, 08:43 PM
I paid 20 for the Taki and stole the Kubota at 25k. Both have cabs. The kubota has hyd thumb, auto idle, heat/AC, and had new rubber tracks. 5-6 ton minis should have cabs IMO. The door on the skid is a pain in my ass but I leave it on cause I want a brush hog and harley rake for it eventually. The skid was local the mini was 2 hours away.

deerewashed
01-13-2013, 08:46 PM
25k?!?!?!?!?! ill give you 26. lol

tnmtn
01-13-2013, 09:03 PM
have you considered a tlb? Not the best but with the limited hours you use it it could give you the ability to get a digger and loader at a lower price point. I do pretty much what you describe with a backhoe.

deerewashed
01-13-2013, 09:19 PM
i have considered a tlb, but it does not fit what we do well. we work in a lot of small backyards. and we would need at least a jd 110tlb. It is too long, and not having a full 360 degree spin on the backhoe end would be worthless to us. Thanks for the idea though!

4 seasons lawn&land
01-13-2013, 10:36 PM
ya nothing like a skid and mini. New certainly doesnt make sense for what we do though.

deerewashed
01-13-2013, 10:54 PM
yeah, I have searched every used equipment site. Looks like if i want both i am just gonna have to shell out 50 to 70k. I really want to spend more and get the same brand, but i dont think my wallet can handle it. Which sucks because i truly believe uniformity is key.

Junior M
01-14-2013, 08:18 AM
If you aren't in a big rush, you could just keep searching around your area on Craigslist and trader papers and find both machines that you want at a decent price.

That's what I did, took most all summer until I found a used machine that I liked and was comfortable with. But I've got into a machine a lot of attachments for less than I wanted to spend originally..
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4 seasons lawn&land
01-14-2013, 09:47 AM
Thats what you have to do is be diligent in looking over the course of a year. Its never taken me that long to find a good used deal on anything. Theres alot of used equip out there. Equipment sites are usually higher than local craigs/paper ads. I hear you about matching equip looking cool but other than that its a waste of money. Local dealer happens to have both my brands to simplify service stuff.

ksss
01-14-2013, 11:47 AM
Getting both for 40K in the hours and condition that you want may be a challenge. You might keep an eye on Iron Planet. There are some deals from time to time. Maybe consider which you want to purchase now and only make one purchase (mini ex or CTL) this year and pickup the other next year or later in this year.

stuvecorp
01-14-2013, 07:34 PM
CNH Capital...

meets1
01-14-2013, 09:30 PM
Not to steer away from the tide at hand here but recently a friend of mine bought a Nice T 300 wtih 400 hours on it for CHEAP out of ohio. Got the thing and could barely keep it running to unload it. Tried it but really no power. They brought it in to the dealer here in town. Lifted the seat and oh my - been on fire! After numerous calls to previous owner - they decided to split the cost ( bobcat came down and basically re-wired the machine). It was bad. So moral is be careful. Ask for alot of pictures and if your going to spend 20K plus, a $1000 plain ticket is cheap insurance.

mxridernorth
01-15-2013, 06:44 PM
Thats what you have to do is be diligent in looking over the course of a year. Its never taken me that long to find a good used deal on anything. Theres alot of used equip out there. Equipment sites are usually higher than local craigs/paper ads. I hear you about matching equip looking cool but other than that its a waste of money. Local dealer happens to have both my brands to simplify service stuff.

You got a good deal on your KX161. I've been on the hunt lately and there are precious few under the $40K mark. Those that are, go fast. So if you come across any let me know.

deerewashed
01-15-2013, 11:13 PM
recently saw something about a rent to own program from Bobcat. I may check that out, and rent a mini excavator for 8 months or so to get me from the spring till fall. That way i can build up some money and then try and purchase the machine if i can.

deerewashed
01-15-2013, 11:16 PM
Also, the fact that i want an e50 really badly doesnt hurt either.

4 seasons lawn&land
01-16-2013, 12:14 AM
I saw several great deals on almost new machines when I was looking but cant afford or justify those ones. Heres a very good one and its in CT
http://nwct.craigslist.org/grd/3498642800.html

deerewashed
01-16-2013, 12:39 AM
i cant spend 45k right now, i need to keep it at least under 40 and close to 30. Also the steel tracks are a huge turnoff and i dont feel like spending another couple thousand for rubber ones. I am gonna look into this rent to own deal tomorrow. seems like it might be a good idea.

mxridernorth
01-16-2013, 12:44 AM
I saw several great deals on almost new machines when I was looking but cant afford or justify those ones. Heres a very good one and its in CT
http://nwct.craigslist.org/grd/3498642800.html

I've seen that already. IMO the 161 is a better model. Also, unfortunately, I need rubber tracks.

AWJ Services
01-16-2013, 09:39 AM
The U45 is a nice machine and very versatile. It is a step under the Kx161 in ability but a better Choice than a KX121.

It is really hard to beat a KX161 in ability and price. They really hold there value and where not as overpriced as some brands when new so resale is a better value even though they depreciate less than say a Cat in this class. Not many machines in it's calss that will outperform it.

rvon99
01-16-2013, 10:18 PM
That is a good deal on the 161. They are great machines, I bought a 2010 this year with around 500hrs on it and 4 buckets for $4500. It has rubber tracks but I wouldn't have a problem with steel tracks.

deerewashed
01-20-2013, 01:16 AM
the guy at bobcat veered me away from the rent to own program due to the intrest rates when it comes time to purchase.
he did tell me/recommend to me the lease program they have.

Here are the rates i got please give me some input on these.

Both are for a 4 year lease:
bobcat t650- fully loaded, bucket and pallet for around $1000 a month(wouldnt get it fully loaded, so it would be less.

bobcat e42- open cab, thumb 2 buckets. $800 a month.


for these prices i feel as though i might as well buy for similar monthly rates, without the worry about having to give it back, especially for the few numbers of hours it will be used, due to constantly getting in and out.

alldayrj
01-20-2013, 11:23 AM
As far as cabs go i have no input on te ex, but my skid steer i have the cab kit and unbolt the door for 99% of the year due to the hassle. I just put it on for snow. And i agree, leasing is the worst way to go about this. Either go used and put the saved$ aside for repairs in the future or put that money into a payment. My motto is you either pay the mechanic or the bank. But someones getting paid
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AWJ Services
01-20-2013, 12:10 PM
the guy at bobcat veered me away from the rent to own program due to the intrest rates when it comes time to purchase.
he did tell me/recommend to me the lease program they have.

Here are the rates i got please give me some input on these.

Both are for a 4 year lease:
bobcat t650- fully loaded, bucket and pallet for around $1000 a month(wouldnt get it fully loaded, so it would be less.

bobcat e42- open cab, thumb 2 buckets. $800 a month.


for these prices i feel as though i might as well buy for similar monthly rates, without the worry about having to give it back, especially for the few numbers of hours it will be used, due to constantly getting in and out.

Youe need an excavator with a reduced or zero tail swing like the E45 or E 50

deerewashed
01-20-2013, 02:15 PM
Youe need an excavator with a reduced or zero tail swing like the E45 or E 50

You really think thats best? i have gotten away with conventional tail swing for a while now. He does have a used e45 for sale for a little over 40k with 360 hours...maybe i will take a look at it.



On another note:
We are considering getting a switch n go on an fl70 like etwman, so i am trying to keep the weight of the machines under 6 ton, not necessary because i can tow it, but would be nice....

stuvecorp
01-20-2013, 02:41 PM
I agree, you have to have a zero turn excavator when doing hardscape projects.

AEL
01-20-2013, 04:20 PM
I would never buy a mini without zero swing. So nice to have when working in tight spots or next to a building /object.
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deerewashed
01-20-2013, 04:39 PM
seems like the general consensus is a zts machine is key.

AWJ Services
01-20-2013, 07:21 PM
The E50 has a minamal tall swing like the KX161 has. Niether is zero tail swing but the overhang is minamal. As far as having a conventional tail swing I see no advantage except maybe a bigger cab?

bobcatexc
01-20-2013, 09:54 PM
Both are for a 4 year lease:
bobcat t650- fully loaded, bucket and pallet for around $1000 a month(wouldnt get it fully loaded, so it would be less.

bobcat e42- open cab, thumb 2 buckets. $800 a month

First I'll admit I've never looked into leasing a machine but at the end of 4 years you've payed out $86,400 for a machine with very low hours that you turn back in and have nothing to show for??? That's crazy to me. I agree with alldayrj you pay to work on the equipment or you pay the bank, but when the work stops the mechanic bill stops but a loan don't stop because of lack of work.

You mentioned that you rent a mtl16 and 3503 mini for all your work, I see mtl16/tl130 with 1000hrs or less going for 20-25K all the time and I see Takeuchi TB125 on average of 15K with usally 1,500hrs, It may take a little bit of time but there's deals out there to keep you at your 40K budget, they might not be the biggest, nicest and newest CTL and Mini but they get the job done and don't cost you fortune when just starting out. Start with equipment that you can live with and sleep at night and that makes business sense.

Yes ZTS is nice if your buying a new machine, but conventional tail swing will work also if you buying used and its a deal.

AEL
01-20-2013, 11:54 PM
Accounting wise Leasing a machine for a few year term with a $1 buy out at the end always works out the best for tax write off purposes.

Hollowellreid
01-21-2013, 10:32 AM
We picked up a 2005 TL130 this summer for 11,000

A 2006 35D for 9,000.

Both are basic machines that needed some TLC but are tight and strong. I and a few of the other guys that work for us were able to fix the little things they needed so it wasn't a problem. I probably spent 4 months looking all over every day.

I don't care for having huge payments as this allows us some flexibility in working, what we are doing, and having some down time in winters.

SunriseGardens
01-21-2013, 09:40 PM
My best advice is to take the time to research the different equipment brands. You know what sizes that you need, you know what your budget is, you know that having a tail on your excavator is no big thing. So........

Find equipment that is simple and has the fewest weak points. The Mustang/gehl/Takeuchi TL 130 are a great machine, I bought mine (2000 hrs, 2002 year) for $16500. bucket, forks, no cab. It was ugly, but a few hours and some paint, she looks pretty nice. Last year I purchased a 2007 IHI 35n for $19000 with cab 2000 hrs.

I spent literally years researching on this and other sites. I had to drive 12 hrs for the Tak - found on machinery trader. The IHI was a hour away found on Craigslist. I did not buy site unseen, I test drove both machines before writing the check.

Anyway, long story longer, my stuff looks nice and is dependable and does what I need for minimal cost, my monthly payments equal one days rental for each machine.

deerewashed
01-24-2013, 12:21 PM
to get 2 new machines financed, i am looking at a little under $30,000 in payments....looks like i better find more work, or find cheaper equipment.

stuvecorp
01-24-2013, 01:58 PM
to get 2 new machines financed, i am looking at a little under $30,000 in payments....looks like i better find more work, or find cheaper equipment.

That seems crazy? I had two skids and an excavator(all bought new) and it was less then that per month?

deerewashed
01-24-2013, 06:48 PM
no per year....

stuvecorp
01-24-2013, 07:19 PM
no per year....

Per year or month that just seems way high to me?

deerewashed
01-24-2013, 09:37 PM
bobcat e50, cab, 24" bucket, 52" bucket, multi machine rebate, 60 month no money down finance- 1220 a month, machine would cost 69,900

bobcat t650, cab, bucket, forks, multi machine rebate, 60 month no money down- 1157 a month, machine would cost 64,548

deerewashed
01-24-2013, 09:38 PM
e42 was like 100 bucks less a month, so the way i feel, i might as well get the e50 that has zts, and much more power.

cab option would only save me around 100 bucks as well so might as well spend it.

alldayrj
01-24-2013, 09:43 PM
2500 a month in payments sounds like a good deal. Post pics as soon as you pick them both up.
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deerewashed
01-24-2013, 09:48 PM
im still on the fence about it....as of right now we primarily use machines like this for landscape install. If i used them the same amount i do now, (as little as possilble) i would be losing money. If i used them more often then i have with rentals in the past, then i still would be in the hole. I am thinking that in order to just get by until the payments up i am going to have to advertise more work, such as land clearing, storm cleanup, and whatever else you guys reccomend. lol

Junior M
01-25-2013, 07:19 AM
For the amount of work you have, I don't think it justifies buying brand new equipment. I think you'd be better of shopping around and being able to pay for something up front. That way there is no worry about how the payment is gonna be made this month..

Plus it's not like you use it every day in a production type atmosphere..so buying used wouldn't be that big of a risk as long as you didn't buy a pos..
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tnmtn
01-25-2013, 06:14 PM
I'm with Junior on this. Too many good used machines that will do the minimal hours you are talking about.

AWJ Services
01-25-2013, 08:33 PM
I personally think buying new with the CTL is a smart move unless you find a killer deal. Excavators on the other hand just do not wear near as much per hour so getting one used is no big deal. My KX161 is nearing 2000 hours and I am amazed at how the machine has almost no wear. The tracks still look new.

My CTL with 1200 hours looks like it was rolled down a cliff.LOL