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mss222
01-14-2013, 11:05 PM
I live in South Florida and when I moved into a new home in February of 2012 the front yard was all weeds/dirt so I paid a gardening company to re-sod the whole front lawn. It looked great this whole time, and in the last month it is almost completely dead with brown patches all over the place. It is devastating.

I checked my sprinklers and there is adequate coverage of water. I water every Wednesday and Saturday (First 90 days I watered 4-5 times a week for the new sod) and I water for 12 minutes at 6:00 A.M.

Now in certain parts of the front lawn I have these weeds that have grown in all over (Do I pick them out..it's hard without killing the actual grass) and there's dying patches all over the front lawn.

How can I figure out what is killing everything, revive it, and protect the grass from this happening again?

I am really tight with money right now, otherwise I'd hire a professional to diagnose and repair. Thank you so much guys!

http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/lawn1.jpg
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/lawn7.jpg
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/lawn5.jpg
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/lawn4.jpg
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/lawn3.jpg
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/lawn2.jpg

Landrus2
01-14-2013, 11:40 PM
Ok when you install new sod water is the most important thing
You forgot to put a a keep it green program in place
You have to feed it and treat it
Ok you as home owner you probably have to work with home-depot products
First thing you have to do at this stage would be to treat it for weeds and fungus or grub depending on your area
2 to 3 weeks later you have to rake those brown bare spots put seed down and top dress with peat moss or top soil:weightlifter:

mss222
01-14-2013, 11:43 PM
Thanks, I watered the new sod back in February 2012 4-5 times a week for 90 days, it had plenty of water and was very healthy looking up until about a month ago!

Yes what homedepot product would you recommend in my situation? What type of seed do I buy and where? The brown patches are definitely dead?

Above Par Lawns
01-14-2013, 11:55 PM
You need to take a soil test first to figure out the underlying problem. Turf cannot grow in poor soil conditions no matter how much you water. Maybe you watered too much? This link should help you with the soil test. It's inexpensive and you'll have your results within a couple weeks. http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/ph.shtml
Become a regular visitor on this site as well http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/ph.shtml. There is a ton of information out there for your specific conditions. Whoever put down the sod should have tested the soil and added whatever amendments necessary to balance the soil first.

Valk
01-15-2013, 12:37 PM
Consult your regional/county horticultural extension office as many issues can be quite local to your area. I'm not knocking advice given here, but you are in a sub-tropical environment with year round issues that most of us 'up North' don't have to contend with.

turfmd101
01-15-2013, 04:31 PM
With all due respect. You asked what was killing your turf and unfortunately its you. The type of irrigation practices you described leads me to believe you set the stage for this poor performance. You probably had the classic rain help making it look as though you were doing a good job but when the real dry weather settled in...the errors of your ways were exposed.
Someone needs a good lesson in herbicide applications also.
Before you take in more responses. Make sure you get the better pictures for responders. Pulling up a couple of runners trying not to damage the roots. Lay them on the blacktop to ensure visibility so all can see the nematode activity before they give any product suggestions. I can not suggest any products at this time or tell you if these areas will survive. They can but unless you get proper cultural practices implemented most products will give false hope.

Start with correcting your irrigation management as well as keep that blade sharp and HIGH.
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turfmd101
01-15-2013, 04:38 PM
By the way your root system has multiple issues. MUST START THERE.
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gunsnroses
01-16-2013, 09:00 AM
Previous remark about too much water is correct. Unless you want to pay someone, that will be for you to figure out in terms of how much overwatering you are doing. Without knowing your soils,rainfall, and your irrigation system, it is hard to say for a guy behind a computer. I am gonna guess that you can cut it in half as of now. You have lots of dollar weed (loves water), and brown patch...(loves water). You can grow out of your brown patch, and you can kill dollar weed, so yer in luck. If you want to do it all yourself, contact your local extention service for help on whats and hows....st augustine can be a pain, even more so in the warmer months. More water, fertilizer, and a bunch of chemicals probably wont work how you like. Get the extention service program and follow it as close as you can. I would guess you could also use a rain sensor on your irrigation clock, and possibly drainage improvements. BTW, there is no seed for st augustine, so dont think that is an option....only sod.

Landscape Poet
01-16-2013, 09:47 AM
Looks like your lawn is Brown patch crazy and I agree with turf md that you most likely are causing the rapid decline of the turf by overwatering and creating the environment perfect for this disease to thrive.
The over watering is not only obvious by the dollar weed present in the lawn but also explains the huge outbreak of brown patch.
I know you say things are tight right now and you can not afford professional service, but think about this, how tight are things going to be when you have to resod that lawn and the HOA is on your tail to replace? You need someone who can treat the brown patch as well as help you ensure your irrigation system is getting good coverage so you are not overwatering to compensate for poor design. As a general rule you should be watering 1 time a week now until daylight savings time change. Then you can figure on twice a week. As far as time nobody is going to give you a perfect answer over the internet without knowing the layout of heads, the output of the system and area to be covered. A general rule that we tell customers is to run pop ups for 25 to 30 minutes, rotars for 45 minutes to a hour once a week during the winter and twice a week at those times during the summer. This usually gets them in the area where they can fine tune the irrigation from there however this by no means is perfect as there is lots of things to consider such as is the pop up in a full shade area or full sun. Your lawn appears from the pictures that it can be saved vs resodding at this point but if conditions are allowed to stay the current courses you will be resodding very very soon.

turfmd101
01-16-2013, 10:35 AM
In my experience. There is only one way to properly irrigate..."as needed".I believe this to be successful for residential and commercial turfgrass under most all environmental conditions experienced. Should apply anywhere.
1. Must have even coverage while hitting target areas.

2. "Calibrate". Find out how long it takes for each zone to apply 1" of water evenly. Set that time and never change it unless to correct up/down for the 1" minimum.

3. Irrigation should Finnish by 9am. Once calibration has been completed. Its math time. Total of complete system run time (all zones ◊ minutes of run time).
Ex: 7 zones ◊ 45 min per zone = 315 min or 5.25 hrs to run complete. Deducting 5.25 hrs from 9 am would leave a 3:45 am start time.

4. Once all calibration is complete. Turn off the system.

5. When 50% to 60% of turfgrass areas start showing drought (wilt) it will be time to turn on the system, let it run its cycle then turn it off again until 50% to 60% of drought return.

6. Number 5 will ALWAYS apply. Environmental factors cancel our ability to set a programed irrigation schedule.

7. You can not rely on technology ( rain sensor or programs ) for proper irrigation management. This will fail at some point. You must manually use your BRAIN.

8. There will always be, at times localized drought stress even after instituting proper irrigation management. Under extreme drought conditions soil can become hydrophobic ( localized hot spots ) they can vary in size 2' sq and up.
Normal irrigation cycles for these areas might not become sufficient and require additional hand watering.

9. Under heavy rains turf problem will occurs but if you are managing irrigation properly as described the impact will be minimized.

10. YOU MUST RELY ON YOURSELF FOR PROPER IRRIGATION NOT YOUR SYSTEM.

I believe at this time if you make the irrigation changes then start applying 0-0-62 at rate twice per month until turfgrass starts to show improvement. Then back off the 0-0-62 and apply under any stressful conditions.

After about 6 to 8 weeks you will be in better overall condition. Continue practicing what I described and as time goes by things will become easier.
Wait till you see your water bill from this practice.:)
With all due respect to Poet. I think no Brown patch, now known as (Large Patch). Too dry environmentally. JMO.
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turfmd101
01-16-2013, 11:02 AM
This is alone because its important. The reason for applying irrigation water is zone specific. Do not water all zones when needing only to water specific zones. Not only will the turfgrass start giving you its best ability to perform you will start growing turfgrass instead of weeds. Eventually the zones will become more synchronized in there watering needs making it easier on you, easier on the environment and ever important putting $ back in your pocket in which you so seem to need. Who doesn't want $...take advantage. Its there
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Valk
01-16-2013, 12:42 PM
Turf needs stress WAY more than it needs babying...especially in the cooler/Spring months. You'll get stronger/hardier turf with deeper roots = being more heat/drought resistant.

Customers who turn on their irrigation systems for 10min here and there are the one's who seem to have the most issues in my neck of the woods. I think that 'they think' their fulfilling some kind of perceived need that their lawn has...when in actuality they are creating a poor environment for their lawn to thrive when Summer conditions arrive.

Smallaxe
01-16-2013, 01:12 PM
I can't speak much to Southern grasses, but I find it hard to believe that 12 minutes twice a week is too much water... We do that much every day just to wash dog urine...
If one is adept in noticing what water-stressed grass looks like before irrigation, that is good, but my idea is to look at the soil in the root zone first hand... if there is enough moisture or not can more easily be determined that way, IMO...
But either way you do it, you'll want to do it as noted on turfmd101's listed #5... allowing the roots to dry a bit at the surface enhances aeration and microbial activity of greater variety, each of which enhances soil structure and soil health...

A question about applying K, this time of year and even in the Spring for Northern areas,,, What's up with that??? We sometimes do K apps in the Fall for winter protection, but it is generally not that needed of a nutrient... Has this notion changed??? and should I be thinking about more potassium on a regular basis???

turfmd101
01-16-2013, 02:31 PM
K is only for when soil temps are suitable for active growth. The irrigation side is a seasonal, blanket rule I follow. I don't change that ever. I feel it would work in most all soil types. Dry is Dry, Wet is Wet know mater how deep you dig.

I asked for a root system picture. But have yet to see. In my area nematodes are always actively disabling root activity as well as disallowing the proper development of healthy root tissue. Especially when the tissue is so damaged from poor soil attention. Any time we have strong stress in St. Aug nematodes are present. The root structure will surly dictate recovery ability and time.

The actual amount of time to irrigate would be dictated by the amount of water any given system outputs vs the soils rate of absorption. All else apply blanket. IMHO.
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turfmd101
01-16-2013, 05:27 PM
I can't speak much to Southern grasses, but I find it hard to believe that 12 minutes twice a week is too much water... We do that much every day just to wash dog urine...
If one is adept in noticing what water-stressed grass looks like before irrigation, that is good, but my idea is to look at the soil in the root zone first hand... if there is enough moisture or not can more easily be determined that way, IMO...
But either way you do it, you'll want to do it as noted on turfmd101's listed #5... allowing the roots to dry a bit at the surface enhances aeration and microbial activity of greater variety, each of which enhances soil structure and soil health...

A question about applying K, this time of year and even in the Spring for Northern areas,,, What's up with that??? We sometimes do K apps in the Fall for winter protection, but it is generally not that needed of a nutrient... Has this notion changed??? and should I be thinking about more potassium on a regular basis???

My feelings about K needs are as follows. Turfgrass lives in a world of continual battles. Mowing, improper irrigation, drought, record rains, etc...no, these problems do not always exist but definitely will at some point. Applying K frequently will enable turfgrass to build on vigor and strength. IMHO I feel N will mostly provide growth and turfgrass grows fert or not. That's why lawn maintenance company's don't require fertilization to keep the mowers running. K frequency should be based on CEC and environmental stress factors. I also believe P & K shared together is more beneficial for overall vigor but in Florida P is phasing out. Frequent K applications will provide your turfgrass with the tools it requires to minimize and relieve stress. Which will allow optimum performance even under adverse conditions.
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Biogreen
01-16-2013, 05:53 PM
There are some nice circles, thats what the brown patch looks like up here in NC

turfmd101
01-16-2013, 06:09 PM
Looking at the pictures on my laptop. I do notice that golden glow and twist that BP has when activley growing. Starving it for water should knock it down.
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Patriot Services
01-16-2013, 06:16 PM
Your going to end up sod patching the brown areas. After it takes good hold you can deal with the dollarweed. Patience is key here. You can get rid of most with big box supplies. Stick with granular and apply as directed. Let it grow to at least 4.5". This alone fixes most weed problems in SA. Apply a fungicide since we still have heavy dew and rain. Call a good independant CPO and get an estimate for a program. Do not call Trugreen.
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Florida Gardener
01-16-2013, 07:55 PM
That is def brown patch. IMO, get a CPO out ASAP to treat the BP. You may be surprised how much you can salvage. Once the BP is not spreading, I would put down a K heavy with slow release N to get lateral growth going. You want fill in. Quick release N will only exacerbate the BP problem. I would also have the dollar weed sprayed at the same time. Whatever areas are to big for fill in, resod. IMO, dollar weed isn't always from overwatering. It will also pop up from standing water meaning those areas might be compacted and not draining well.
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Landscape Poet
01-16-2013, 08:42 PM
With all due respect to Poet. I think no Brown patch, now known as (Large Patch). Too dry environmentally. JMO.
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I respect your opinion turf as you are the licensed applicator however the reason I would say Brown Patch is the appearance leads me to say that with the large circles and yellowing leaf and the current soil temps have been perfect for this disease to show its side effects especially because of the cooler evening hours. The environment being dry would be accurate except in the OP's statement he noted that he is running the irrigation twice a week AND 12 minutes in the morning as well. I can not be positive as I do not know the amount of water he is applying in those two applications a week but I can almost assure you with the aid of the additional 12 minutes EVERY morning the root system is next to nothing in this lawn as the lawn never has to look for water and therefore it has not roots established to fight off stresses . It would be my guess the BP spores are present and he is promoting it with over watering ..also evident by the dollar weed. Also remember he installed this lawn this winter, and stated he watered 4 to 5 times a week for the first 90 days.
This turfgrass has never established any root system
On the watering I agree with your advice except most home owners are not willing to put that much time into their lawn so it has been my experience although you can tell them this, they will simply not do it and take advice from someone else on how long to water their lawn.

One thing the OP will have to be advised of , it the lawn has been that heavily watered since install.....I would bet it would show signs of stress daily for awhile as again the roots have been made to look for water. If allowed to go without monitoring daily....he will lose more turfgrass to stress. I have a feeling it will take awhile for the turf to get to off its immediate need for water. Especially if he is applying 0-0-62 as you suggested because would the chlorine in that product just put it under more stress? With respect to your turf as you are the applicator and I am simply a lawn guy...would he be best advised to NOT apply any fertilizer until the BP is under control and the lawn irrigation practices are better as the lawn does not need any other stresses.

Also OP if I am correct and that is Brown Patch. If you mow your own lawn or if you have someone do it....you need to stop IMHO 1. until the turf is taller as Patriot stated in the 4.5 to 5 inch range and then only if 2. there is signs of the BP not being active anymore IE the blades do not pull out with ease, they do not smell , and the yellowing is gone as you are most likely helping spread it throughout the lawn.

As I stated in my first opinion....I think you need to hire a small well respected fert and squirt company to get this under control. IT WILL BE CHEAPER THAN REPLACING THE LAWN

I agree with Florida too...you will be surprised how much of that will come back under proper mgmt and care with proper irrigation and mechanical procedures.

Not trying to be rude to anyone on here but rather just trying to help the OP out with my opinions and I do not claim to be the best at turf disease mgmt so many of my statements are just guesses.

doobs41378
01-16-2013, 09:27 PM
Sweet S4 in the driveway....

turfmd101
01-16-2013, 10:20 PM
Poet, I did catch the BP thank you. 0-0-62 MOP is cheaper per 1,000 than K-mag or 62 SOP which would probably be a better choice but I don't believe its necessary. As for the chlorine. I feel the root tissue benefit out weighs the small amount of chlorine.

BP mostly destroys foliage and rarely causes plant death. This guy has so much activity he has no choice but to drought out the BP. Fungicides will only contain the BP spoors. If it killed them, BP would not be so easily occurring in the same areas the next year. People who treat there BP have the same issue with people who don't ( they will probably get it again next year ). The only effective way I have found to kill BP is not when its active but the next year when environmental conditions are getting lined up to pull BP out of dormancy you start making sure to force drought. Not drought damage. But drought. I believe if the BP can not come out of dormancy and feed it will start dieing off. I have practiced this method since 1995 and have never had an issue with BP reoccurring once I know a property has been getting it in the past. I still believe Florida's current conditions temp wise (soil ) is starting to effect BP negatively and will continue to.

Yes this HO will suffer a ugly transition period following my irrigation suggestions. His root system is probably toast ( mostly anchor roots with no feeder hairs and poor tissue from rot as well as nematode activity) but my suggestion still applies " water when dry ". It could be daily still. But drought has to determine irrigation know matter how frequently it occurs. IMHO my irrigation suggestion applies to one day old turf the same it does to 20 year old turf. When dry know matter the frequency.
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Smallaxe
01-17-2013, 08:48 AM
... The environment being dry would be accurate except in the OP's statement he noted that he is running the irrigation twice a week AND 12 minutes in the morning as well. I can not be positive as I do not know the amount of water he is applying in those two applications a week but I can almost assure you with the aid of the additional 12 minutes EVERY morning the root system is next to nothing in this lawn as the lawn never has to look for water and therefore it has not roots established to fight off stresses . ...

I didn't go back and reread the OP's wording, so I'll take your word for it...
that is to say I missed that scheduling thing... If we did that with cool-season grasses we'd also expect problems...

Smallaxe
01-17-2013, 09:17 AM
If we were(northern scapers) going to the irrigation schedule suggestted,,, the best transition would be made following an aeration and compost application... even seeding if needed...
That should prevent an "Ugly Transition" as mentioned... Just a Thought... :)

turfmd101
01-17-2013, 11:00 AM
If we were(northern scapers) going to the irrigation schedule suggestted,,, the best transition would be made following an aeration and compost application... even seeding if needed...
That should prevent an "Ugly Transition" as mentioned... Just a Thought... :)

In central Fl in my experience St. Aug is at its best, looking like..."ERR" ILL KICK YOUR A##"...and you can almost hear it roar "GREEN" becoming truly beastly March through May. Temps in 80's day, mid to hi 60's at night. The goal is to hold that "ERR" as long as possible. IMO in this HO's area he will have these favored conditions longer than I. Don't miss the gravy train. Perfect for transition. Much shorter period with minimal wasted turfgrass energy. Its the time of year people who fert and the ones who don't have the same overall health.
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mss222
01-19-2013, 03:33 PM
Everybody thank you for all your help, a lot of the terminology is above my head. Also I may have not been clear but to clarify:

The grass was not installed this winter, it was installed February 2012. Furthermore I water twice a week, (Wed and Sat) with my sprinkler system. This is for 12 minutes in each zone. I do NOT water everyday.

At this point it seems like I guess I have to hire a local pesticide company to see what can be done. Are you guys suggesting that I let the grass grow out for a long time before cutting it again?

Patriot Services
01-19-2013, 03:46 PM
Yes. Healthy SA is at least 4". Any less and it is stressed.
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Smallaxe
01-19-2013, 04:37 PM
... The grass was not installed this winter, it was installed February 2012. Furthermore I water twice a week, (Wed and Sat) with my sprinkler system. This is for 12 minutes in each zone. I do NOT water everyday. ...

OK, that is what I thought... very few systems will put out adequate water for 1/2 of a week in 12 minutes...

You'll want to look at the soil, to see if the root zone is dry, to make sure,,, but my guess is that you are letting your grass die from lack of water... if you have a sandy texture for your soil, there is a very good chance that if you boosted your irrigation volume, a lot of your problem would go away...

Bottom line is,,, you can't tell by looking and feeling the top of the grass to tell if you have adequate moisture in the roots...

mss222
01-19-2013, 04:43 PM
OK, that is what I thought... very few systems will put out adequate water for 1/2 of a week in 12 minutes...

You'll want to look at the soil, to see if the root zone is dry, to make sure,,, but my guess is that you are letting your grass die from lack of water... if you have a sandy texture for your soil, there is a very good chance that if you boosted your irrigation volume, a lot of your problem would go away...

Bottom line is,,, you can't tell by looking and feeling the top of the grass to tell if you have adequate moisture in the roots...

Sorry to sound stupid but what do you mean by look at the soil and see if the root zone is dry. What actions do I take to investigate the soil.

I thought the brown patch fungus comes from too much watering and people are saying I'm overwatering?

So you are saying I should water more? More days or more per zone? How many minutes per zone?

turfmd101
01-19-2013, 06:22 PM
Sorry to sound stupid but what do you mean by look at the soil and see if the root zone is dry. What actions do I take to investigate the soil.

I thought the brown patch fungus comes from too much watering and people are saying I'm overwatering?

So you are saying I should water more? More days or more per zone? How many minutes per zone?

1. Force more drought (environmental conditions allowing) than usual for your nornal watering schedule. Yes, it is correct to say too much water enables BP. There are many ways to have too much water in the soil,,, many things factor this. Over watering your case? Maby. In the end over wet soil is the problem. Finding the trigger will ensure you know, "WHY".

2. If you must mow avoid active areas especially the fringe,,, the outer, highly active ring,,, has a nice golden to twist look. When the golden color fades out and your left with green grass and a white to light brown color, activity is greatly dying out. GOOD NEWS. Mowing at this point may be OK. Especially if foliage spoors are coated with a fungicide. Any areas normally dry,,, no golden glow and a good 3ft away from any glow should be OK to mow now. I'm not one for collecting clippings but when you have BP this can minimize more so spreading through mowing,,, if your nervous about mowing.

3. Don't force issues,,, meaning try not to force recovery. Your environmental conditions through April are favorsome. Helping your turfgrass take advantage of this will out perform forcing recovery. That will be more grey for you but that's the separation between getting professional aid or doing it yourself. The most important tools are learned not taught,,, because there's no way to teach them they require self teaching because its something you see not something you touch. Recovery ability will be based on all these factors.
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Smallaxe
01-20-2013, 10:58 AM
turfmd101, mss222 said he was watering ONLY 12 minutes twice per week...
That misunderstanding has driven this thread into mass confusion... i.e., too much water is NOT likely the problem with 24minutes/week of irrigation...

The problem is most likely drought conditions... Either way,,, this is what you'll want to do:
Use a sturdy spade or shovel and push it into the turf as far as you can,,, open up a wedge by moving the shovel forward and backwards... at this point you should have a visual into the root system and even get your hand into the dirt to feel the moisture level... like sticking your finger into a potted plant to see if it needs watering...
It would also be helpful to take a little sample of the dirt and rub it between your fingers... if it is Gritty like grits then it is sandy ,,, if it is greasy like fresh Play-doh then it is probably clay,,, if it is crumbly like old dried out Play-doh then it is possibly good soil...

Doing these little steps are as important as they would be in maintaining a window box watering... once you find out where your soil is at, then follow turfmd101's step #5...
Hope this helps... :)

gunsnroses
01-20-2013, 11:20 AM
Here is an extention service link http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/lh010 (I dont believe this has been provided yet)


It should clear any bad, good, complicated or wrong information previously given.

Watering (as needed) is what you need to work on the most, and is pretty hard to figure out.

Unless you pay for a full service company, it may be wise to "nerd" out a bit and really figure out your irrigation system. Paying someone may be wise, but that is your math equation to compute.

good luck

Smallaxe
01-20-2013, 11:43 AM
I don't know of many professionals that are willing to babysit an irrigation system so that the lawn gets water, "as needed"...
The best that can be done is to figure out how much water/time it takes to soak up the root zone for this individual lawn... then ,,, depending on weather conditions,,, see how long it takes to become dry again as turfmd101, suggests...
That's all the math necessary for a perfect lawn... too much water becuz of lots of rain??? shut off the irrigation until it is showing drought or the soil actually dries enough to get air in the structure again...

This business about "Irrigation Formula" is just another money making scheme to remove common sense from watering, "As needed"... :)

turfmd101
01-20-2013, 01:16 PM
turfmd101, mss222 said he was watering ONLY 12 minutes twice per week...
That misunderstanding has driven this thread into mass confusion... i.e., too much water is NOT likely the problem with 24minutes/week of irrigation...

The problem is most likely drought conditions... Either way,,, this is what you'll want to do:
Use a sturdy spade or shovel and push it into the turf as far as you can,,, open up a wedge by moving the shovel forward and backwards... at this point you should have a visual into the root system and even get your hand into the dirt to feel the moisture level... like sticking your finger into a potted plant to see if it needs watering...
It would also be helpful to take a little sample of the dirt and rub it between your fingers... if it is Gritty like grits then it is sandy ,,, if it is greasy like fresh Play-doh then it is probably clay,,, if it is crumbly like old dried out Play-doh then it is possibly good soil...

Doing these little steps are as important as they would be in maintaining a window box watering... once you find out where your soil is at, then follow turfmd101's step #5...
Hope this helps... :)

smallaxe, please do not take this as a challenge response,,, for I enjoy reading your post most and respect your fair, respectful insights. I don't always come a cross so respectful. My trust and respect in the industry, face to face, is my strongest mechanism. On keyboard,,, my fingers do the talking and look what they said about my face. Working on the connection... "those that know me GET me"...

Here goes... I do not factor in any of his irrigation info because there is only IMHO,,, ONE WAY TO H2O your landscape,,, as I had discussed,,,AS NEEDED...
For this reason alone,,, since the HO never mentioned the reasons for his irrigation schedule he made it up, or someone did, without using important factors that do not follow a schedule but undoubtedly MAKE IT,,, I would go against my view on Proper Irrigation Management and he doesn't know it exist to make his schedule.

I can not replay or review the things which may have created his dilemma but I can tell you,,, in my time in the field,,, there are a lot of things that can go wrong but only a hand full of problems that create from these. I believe this because we only primarily use a small arsenal of tools ( 3 types of pesticides, nutrients, soil
amendments, irrigation and our BRAIN) for all most issues.

In my experience BP needs what all things require,,, a formula to exist. BP's can not exist and survive under drought conditions,,, the dryer the harder,,, the wetter the easier,,, he is real active. Drought in Fl normally causes either drought damage or chinch bug then death if left unattended. IMHO,,,properly dried turf disables BP's trigger. He has it... over wet is not a matter of a schedule as much as it IS a matter of FACT. Its something that shows in the life that uses it. Whether its up/down.

No doubt his root system is littered with issues, ( good ones, desiccated ones, anchor roots with minimal fine hair feeder roots, swollen roots from nematodes, roots 2" to 8" roots, it was probably muck base sod and that will cause soil surface areas in week, hot sun conditions to become hydrophobic after over irrigation and rain have ceased to continue. JMHO.

That's some cliff notes to my observations of the HO pictures. I see what he has as most and after 26 years of seeing the same pictures with the usual issues. I also see the same old trail of disaster and it always Leeds to irrigation. Mechanical damage,,, another story.

I don't believe in mystery in the environment. But I do go by a certain set of factors and condition effects all created from the same recipe just a change of ingredients and I've tasted most versions.
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mss222
01-20-2013, 01:21 PM
turfmd101, mss222 said he was watering ONLY 12 minutes twice per week...
That misunderstanding has driven this thread into mass confusion... i.e., too much water is NOT likely the problem with 24minutes/week of irrigation...

The problem is most likely drought conditions... Either way,,, this is what you'll want to do:
Use a sturdy spade or shovel and push it into the turf as far as you can,,, open up a wedge by moving the shovel forward and backwards... at this point you should have a visual into the root system and even get your hand into the dirt to feel the moisture level... like sticking your finger into a potted plant to see if it needs watering...
It would also be helpful to take a little sample of the dirt and rub it between your fingers... if it is Gritty like grits then it is sandy ,,, if it is greasy like fresh Play-doh then it is probably clay,,, if it is crumbly like old dried out Play-doh then it is possibly good soil...

Doing these little steps are as important as they would be in maintaining a window box watering... once you find out where your soil is at, then follow turfmd101's step #5...
Hope this helps... :)

I just did what you said, the soil is a dark black it is not gritty, im not sure what you mean bye greasy, and it didn't per se crumble like dried out playdoh.

The soil itself definitely didnt feel like it had a lot of moisture to it, at the same time it didn't feel like it was completely dried out. At the same time it seemed pretty easy for the roots to come out of the soil.

If its a lack of watering, why would I have all of those orange circled chunks that appear to look like brown patch fungus. Doesn't that come from excessive mositure?

The spots that aren't orange but are kind of a light grey/brown and look liked dried up dead spots is that from a lack of water? Could I possibly save it by spot watering it?

I was told that twice a week with each zone being watered for 12 minutes was adequate. Maybe I'm wrong? Especially since some of them are rotary sprinklers so its not constantly watering the same spot for 12 minutes straight.

Is 6:30 am a good time to start the sprinkler system and any recommendations on what to change it to right now to try and get back the grass in shape.

I have sent emails to 3 pesticide companies to come out this week and give me a free diagnostic on what must be done and how much. But preferrably I'd rather take care of this myself if possible.

mss222
01-20-2013, 01:24 PM
turfmd101, mss222 said he was watering ONLY 12 minutes twice per week...
That misunderstanding has driven this thread into mass confusion... i.e., too much water is NOT likely the problem with 24minutes/week of irrigation...

The problem is most likely drought conditions... Either way,,, this is what you'll want to do:
Use a sturdy spade or shovel and push it into the turf as far as you can,,, open up a wedge by moving the shovel forward and backwards... at this point you should have a visual into the root system and even get your hand into the dirt to feel the moisture level... like sticking your finger into a potted plant to see if it needs watering...
It would also be helpful to take a little sample of the dirt and rub it between your fingers... if it is Gritty like grits then it is sandy ,,, if it is greasy like fresh Play-doh then it is probably clay,,, if it is crumbly like old dried out Play-doh then it is possibly good soil...

Doing these little steps are as important as they would be in maintaining a window box watering... once you find out where your soil is at, then follow turfmd101's step #5...
Hope this helps... :)

Here is an extention service link http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/lh010 (I dont believe this has been provided yet)


It should clear any bad, good, complicated or wrong information previously given.

Watering (as needed) is what you need to work on the most, and is pretty hard to figure out.

Unless you pay for a full service company, it may be wise to "nerd" out a bit and really figure out your irrigation system. Paying someone may be wise, but that is your math equation to compute.

good luck

I looked at that site and I am wondering it a lot of the areas that no longer have green and look dried out are from chinch bugs. I was told by the previous owner that his whole yard had chinch bugs in them at one point and ruined his grass, and that he paid to have them removed, but maybe they came back? How would I be able to tell.

turfmd101
01-20-2013, 01:28 PM
Probably some mole cricket damage and chinch bug dont just come back, they are invited back to feed in stress areas.They hunt for food and live where its easily accessible. Healthy turf resist damage not activity.
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mss222
01-20-2013, 01:30 PM
With all due respect. You asked what was killing your turf and unfortunately its you. The type of irrigation practices you described leads me to believe you set the stage for this poor performance. You probably had the classic rain help making it look as though you were doing a good job but when the real dry weather settled in...the errors of your ways were exposed.
Someone needs a good lesson in herbicide applications also.
Before you take in more responses. Make sure you get the better pictures for responders. Pulling up a couple of runners trying not to damage the roots. Lay them on the blacktop to ensure visibility so all can see the nematode activity before they give any product suggestions. I can not suggest any products at this time or tell you if these areas will survive. They can but unless you get proper cultural practices implemented most products will give false hope.

Start with correcting your irrigation management as well as keep that blade sharp and HIGH.
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When you say pull up a couple of runners without damaging the roots, I don't know what a runner is?Can you clarify what exactly needs to be pulled and shown on the blacktop for the picture you would like to see. Thank you.

turfmd101
01-20-2013, 01:40 PM
When you say pull up a couple of runners without damaging the roots, I don't know what a runner is?Can you clarify what exactly needs to be pulled and shown on the blacktop for the picture you would like to see. Thank you.

Google a picture of one then go find one. Know your plant.
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mss222
01-20-2013, 04:04 PM
More close up pictures to show the areas where the grass is not healthy looks like this:

http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/moregrass1.jpg
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w326/Renegade9999/moregrass2.jpg

turfmd101
01-20-2013, 04:51 PM
All that torn foil age will push off and it will look ugly. Foliage comes and foliage goes but the plant continues to grow. Understand, saving your ugly foliage will not save your plant. Still haven't seen it. If your new flush of foliage can be cut cleaner so the tissue can cure and in this continues. Your turf will hold foliage longer have less depleation of foliage become denser and stop looking like its always dying. This change in proper mowing sharpness will be the FIRST thing in new root development. A happily, healthy growing foliage system will drive the turfs desire for a healthy root system. With the new and improved growth in the foliage the plant will start repair structuring its root system to aid in the welcomed new plant growths success. " Its alive".
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Smallaxe
01-21-2013, 01:55 PM
Looks like you're looking straight down at the dirt right there...
Grab a stick and dig down a few inches... see if you can get a sense of moisture in the soil...
I am always amazed by how difficult people seem to think it is to report on soil moisture... :)

mss222
01-27-2013, 04:09 PM
Okay guys had 2 pest companies come out, one said they treat diseases, insect, and weeds and also fertilize every other month for $60 each time. The other recommended an initial treatment for $100 and then a follow up next week for $100 and then a monthly plan of $55. Over $700 a yr for a small front lawn is ridiculous.

Both said I was watering too much that during the winter/spring time I should be watering once a week. They said the dollar weed is from too much water. They said all the browning is from brown patch fungus. I asked both if they could get the brown patch to come back, they both said they the fungicide they use have some type of chemical in it that turns the grass greener. Don't know how true that is.

At this point for the issues do I really need a pest company? When I used Scott's brown patch control it seemed to stop any of the brown patch spreading. Is there something I can buy to shoot on the dollar weed to kill it myself?

Also, my main concern is where all of the brown patch is to have that area come back growing and green. Is there any product I can buy that will help achieve this? Should I let my grass grow long for a while before the next cut? The pest guys also said the lawn guys cut the grass too short causing a lot of the dying.


The MAIN QUESTION is:

Is it worth paying a pesticide company to "attempt" to fix the lawn by killing the dollar weeds and "attempting" to get the brown patch growing and green again?

Or is there something I can buy locally and do?

Realistically, can I revive the brown patch areas and if so how?

Thank you everyone you have been very very helpful so far!

Patriot Services
01-27-2013, 04:15 PM
IMHO you will spend as much on DIY products with less results than going with a pro. The first one sound reasonable. The only way to repair the damaged areas is plug or sod for instant repair or encourage lateral growth with fert and time.
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Kiril
01-27-2013, 04:31 PM
All this talk about irrigation scheduling, but nary a mention of proper methodology. Your basic water requirements on a per hydrozone (or valve zone) basis assuming no rain inputs, soil moisture content is at field capacity to start with and soil is homogeneous throughout root zone (both current and potential). A proper audit needs to be conducted.

Interval: INTz = (AWHC * RZ * MAD) / (ETo * Kl)

INTz = Zone Interval (days)
AWHC = Soil Plant Available Water Holding Capacity (in/foot)
RZ = Root zone depth (feet)
MAD = Management allowable depletion (%)
ETo = reference evapotranspiration (in/day)
Kl = landscape/crop coefficient (%) (see WUCOLS (http://www.water.ca.gov/wateruseefficiency/docs/wucols00.pdf))

Runtime: RTz = [(60 * INTz * ETz) / ARze] * RTM

RTz = Irrigation zone runtime (mins)
INTz = Interval between irrigation events (days)
ETz = Zone adjusted ET (in/day) --> ETz = (ETo * Kl)
ARze = Zone effective application rate (in/hr) --> from catch can audit (most accurate)
RTM = Runtime multiplier (a factor of DU) --> RTM = 100/DULH


Note: Other considerations need to be made here, but this will get you started in the right direction.

Above Par Lawns
01-27-2013, 04:39 PM
Yeah I'm sure that information will do the OP a lot of good.
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turfmd101
01-27-2013, 05:19 PM
All this talk about irrigation scheduling, but nary a mention of proper methodology. Your basic water requirements on a per hydrozone (or valve zone) basis assuming no rain inputs, soil moisture content is at field capacity to start with and soil is homogeneous throughout root zone (both current and potential). A proper audit needs to be conducted.

Interval: INTz = (AWHC * RZ * MAD) / (ETo * Kl)

INTz = Zone Interval (days)
AWHC = Soil Plant Available Water Holding Capacity (in/foot)
RZ = Root zone depth (feet)
MAD = Management allowable depletion (%)
ETo = reference evapotranspiration (in/day)
Kl = landscape/crop coefficient (%) (see WUCOLS (http://www.water.ca.gov/wateruseefficiency/docs/wucols00.pdf))

Runtime: RTz = [(60 * INTz * ETz) / ARze] * RTM

RTz = Irrigation zone runtime (mins)
INTz = Interval between irrigation events (days)
ETz = Zone adjusted ET (in/day) --> ETz = (ETo * Kl)
ARze = Zone effective application rate (in/hr) --> from catch can audit (most accurate)
RTM = Runtime multiplier (a factor of DU) --> RTM = 100/DULH


Note: Other considerations need to be made here, but this will get you started in the right direction.

Got it.
1. When showing suffecient drought.

2. Manage proper irrigation.

Good job explaining. Kiril
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mss222
01-27-2013, 07:19 PM
Yeah that formula means nothing to me....it seems that you all think a pesticide company is the way to go...but that all of the brown/orange areas will not be fixed without resodding those areas, which is what I was hoping to avoid. What a shame, always something as a homeowner I guess.

Is $60 a month every other month reasonable, and why did one company suggest that and the other suggested every month. Is every month really necessary?

Patriot Services
01-27-2013, 07:48 PM
Every month spoon feeding is an easy way of encouraging rapid growth. It also puts him on the property more often to stay on top of any issues. A lot of it is personal judgement on the applicators part. 60 an app is not unreasonable for a quality job. A 20 dollar TG special will get you nothing but more problems. Remember he is feeding, controlling weeds, insects, disease and showing you proper irrigation practices. Your not just paying to have products put down, but the knowledge that goes with that. Stop thinking this will fix itself, ain't gonna happen.
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Kiril
01-27-2013, 11:18 PM
Yeah that formula means nothing to me

If you want to properly manage your irrigation, that is where you start, not with over general "rules of thumb", which are most times inaccurate at best. Sorry if it is complex, but that is how professional irrigation managers do it. If you want to keep guessing or use some of the other suggestions made here, then your lawn will likely continue to suffer.

Weekend cut easymoney
01-27-2013, 11:40 PM
Hey bro, get a soil moisture probe....to eliminate at least the moisture problem...then eliminate as many of below...
Order to eliminate problems...
Water issue
Insect
Fungus or disease
Soil issue

You can get asoil moisture sensor add on to your system that will help with watering...it will allow you to runiirrigation only when needed...call an irrigator to install

Florida Gardener
01-29-2013, 09:25 AM
Yeah that formula means nothing to me....it seems that you all think a pesticide company is the way to go...but that all of the brown/orange areas will not be fixed without resodding those areas, which is what I was hoping to avoid. What a shame, always something as a homeowner I guess.

Is $60 a month every other month reasonable, and why did one company suggest that and the other suggested every month. Is every month really necessary?

I actually think that is cheap. They are driving out there, and treating multiple issues each visit. It is a great deal. Yes, I would have them come out every month until things are looking good. Either that, or plan for a re-sod.
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