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View Full Version : 3500HD GMC/Chevy or Ford F450?


mkwl
01-24-2013, 11:12 PM
Hey Guys-

First off- I know these trucks are in different classes (1 ton versus 1.5 ton). I'm a die hard GM guy at heart, and if GM still made a 4500 truck, I'd jump right on it. However, they don't. So I'm torn between a GMC/Chevy 3500HD and a Ford F450. I'm looking for it to be able to pull 10K everyday without any hiccups. Will load with mulch, leaves, topsoil, and occasionally stone- looking for one with a 10-12' dump body on it.

I guess my question is- is it worth it to go to ford for a "little" weight capability increase? Or are the new GM 3500HD's comparable in actual payload to an F450?

Thoughts? I'd likely be going gas with either as I'm deathly afraid of Ford Diesels and not in love with all the emissions stuff on either the Duramax or Powerstroke Diesels.

Thanks guys

Jaybrown
01-24-2013, 11:22 PM
Ram 4500 cummins diesel You can put any box u want on it and the new model comes with the biggest rear ever ! And now 850 ft/pounds of torque !!! That will tow 10 k easily 20 k easily. Inside is all new as well

Jaybrown
01-24-2013, 11:58 PM
The price is unbeatable

mkwl
01-25-2013, 01:18 AM
I might have to look into the dodges.... not sure I can really/want to swing the extra cost of a diesel though...

LandFakers
01-25-2013, 09:12 AM
You are wanting to buy a 3500 gas? The 3500hd will pull 10k everyday, but a diesel in the 3500 will do it with ease, no matter what brand. I like the ram 4500 is a good choice as well.

bobcat_ron
01-25-2013, 09:58 AM
Since when did GM stop making the 4500's?
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jrs.landscaping
01-25-2013, 10:02 AM
Both trucks will do what you want, I'd go with a diesel if you plan on pulling 10k on a regular basis.

Jaybrown
01-25-2013, 12:07 PM
Diesel more torque. Very long lasting engines and better fuel economy when hauling.

gallihergreen
01-25-2013, 12:10 PM
Since when did GM stop making the 4500's?
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2009 was the last year for 'em, BUT rumor has it GM will be debuting a new 1-ton based 4500/5500 Silverado/Sierra with the 2014 HD pickups.
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Marek
01-25-2013, 01:54 PM
What GVW do you want ? A 450 is 16k and a 3500 is around 13,400. For towing a 450 will also give you larger brakes as well. Remember either diesel would be a derated version of the pick up trucks.

mkwl
01-25-2013, 01:58 PM
2009 was the last year for 'em, BUT rumor has it GM will be debuting a new 1-ton based 4500/5500 Silverado/Sierra with the 2014 HD pickups.
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I'll keep my fingers crossed! A Dmax powered 4500 4x4 dump is exactly what I'd want....

Landrus2
01-25-2013, 02:12 PM
What GVW do you want ? A 450 is 16k and a 3500 is around 13,400. For towing a 450 will also give you larger brakes as well. Remember either diesel would be a derated version of the pick up trucks.

I think so to:waving:

mkwl
01-25-2013, 02:19 PM
What makes me nervous about going diesel (at least on one newer than 2007.5) is the complexity of them with all the emissions cr@p on them.... my '06 Dmax is complex enough without all that other stuff on there... makes me nervous abou the repair costs 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road (I keep my trucks for a long time :) )

mkwl
01-25-2013, 02:21 PM
What GVW do you want ? A 450 is 16k and a 3500 is around 13,400. For towing a 450 will also give you larger brakes as well. Remember either diesel would be a derated version of the pick up trucks.

Well that's what I'm asking- do guys that went with a 3500 wish they'd gone with a 450 instead? Cost wise they seem to be relatively close (1 ton vs 1.5 ton).

gallihergreen
01-25-2013, 02:22 PM
What makes me nervous about going diesel (at least on one newer than 2007.5) is the complexity of them with all the emissions cr@p on them.... my '06 Dmax is complex enough without all that other stuff on there... makes me nervous abou the repair costs 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road (I keep my trucks for a long time :) )

Get a low mileage 4500 Duramax dump without the 2007+ emissions equipment.
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mkwl
01-25-2013, 02:23 PM
Diesel more torque. Very long lasting engines and better fuel economy when hauling.

Definitely agree with the torque.... but with the myriad of issues the new diesels are having with the emissions and the CRAZY high cost of repairs (friend just had injectors done on his 6.0L PSD to the tune of $9K), it makes me second guess a diesel.

As far as the long lasting- not so sure about that one... I mean most modern gassers are going for 150K or more even heavily used, I could put a whole new engine in a gasser for $7-9K and be good for another 150K. I see a LOT of guys around here with 450 and 550's with the 6.0L's trading them in and selling after they have 50K miles on them....to me that seems insane.. from a pure cost vs. benefit perspective.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-25-2013, 09:29 PM
The whole 1/2 ton and 1 ton terminology is so out dated today I have no idea why its still used. The payloads for my ram 4500s are just shy of 7000 pounds. Does that make them 3 and a half ton trucks? Now do I wish I went smaller nope the frame is so much stronger the wheels are rated for nearly 4000 pounds each X 6. I accidentally put too much rock on mine and was around 10000 pounds for a load she just smiled at me and asked if I had any more.

As for hopes for gm to make the medium truck again I think your screwed for 4 more years till Obama leaves. He took over gm made them fire their CEO and they stopped making medium trucks which is where they made their best profits and they began making Volts which lose $10,000 dollars per car even with the subsidies. The left hates trucks and the left owns GM which is the best thing that could of happened to Dodge. They really stepped up in 2008 when they jumped into the medium work truck market.

Woodman1
01-25-2013, 11:28 PM
MKWL,
I hate when someone tells me "You don't know what you want" - I know you didn't ask about Dodges, but I am with Kelly, Jaybrown and Landfakers! I have three Dodges. The post 2007.5 trucks are all good to go - so much so that I am going to pick up a new 4500 next week. For what you are describing that you want to do with it - you aught to at least give them a look. When you get ready to buy - if you get down to the nuts and bolts with prices - hit me up - I will put you in contact with my dealer - best price ANYWHERE on the 4500!

mkwl
01-25-2013, 11:41 PM
MKWL,
I hate when someone tells me "You don't know what you want" - I know you didn't ask about Dodges, but I am with Kelly, Jaybrown and Landfakers! I have three Dodges. The post 2007.5 trucks are all good to go - so much so that I am going to pick up a new 4500 next week. For what you are describing that you want to do with it - you aught to at least give them a look. When you get ready to buy - if you get down to the nuts and bolts with prices - hit me up - I will put you in contact with my dealer - best price ANYWHERE on the 4500!

Yeah The Dodges are definitely in the running now- what are the specs on your 4500? 4x4? Auto/Standard Tranny?

Woodman1
01-26-2013, 12:07 AM
4x4 cab and chassis auto. I got a flatbed dump built and a removable dovetail is being fabbed right now.
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mkwl
01-26-2013, 12:13 AM
Nice- what did the C/C run you?

Woodman1
01-26-2013, 12:25 AM
I will have to double check the numbers because I am trading and adding this and that, but with the emergency equip package included 43 I THINK. Don't hold me to that exactly though.
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360ci
01-26-2013, 12:41 AM
Dodge diesels in the 4500 and 5500 models also use urea, like Ford and GM. The Ford F650/750 with the 6.7L Cummins I6 also uses urea injection. They might have the 6.4L V8 TD in those trucks now though.

The 4500/5500 trucks and their 4.44/4.88 axle ratios will eat more fuel, have more expensive tires to replace, and have a harsher ride. If you don't need the payload capacity or front gross axle weight rating for a huge plow, stick with the 3500 series. I'm not sure if Ford still uses the V10 gas in the 4500/5500, but for an everyday hauler it might be worth looking into if you can eat the 6-8mpg. The F350 can be had with the 6.2L V8, but if you want to stick with GM and a gas engine, the 3500 GM is hard to ignore as I find GM is the best of the big3 with ride quality.

I'm in the market and am considering a RAM 3500 dually chassis. Dodge makes the only HD truck with a manual transmission (diesel only). So it has my attention on that alone.

All gas trucks over 10K gross are de-tuned for long term reliability. As an example a GM 3500 with the 6L V8 puts out 322hp, over the 360hp of the 2500 truck with the same engine. Torque remains the same, at the same rpm, go figure that one.

I find it hard to justify the cost of a diesel from Ford or GM based on the fact that they want $12K+ for the diesel and automatic transmission option. The Dodge diesel might not have the torque numbers with the manual, but is $4K less here in Canada.

I buy trucks for the long term, so I do my homework on part costs, labour, tire cost, servicing cost, etc. Some services I can axe out as I can do those myself. For 60K miles (Canadian dollars here folks), Dodge came in first place with the diesel, last in the gas engine. GM Came in the middle for diesel, and 1st in gas engine costs. Ford came in with highest costs for the diesel and in the middle for gas engine costs. The only thing that Cummins asks is to check valve lash (I believe) at around 40K in order to be covered for the duration of the warranty, etc. I don't tow excessively and the diesel manual transmission combo with the 3.73 gears (highest available in Canada) can tow just over 13K, which is nearly 3 tons more than I really need, but it's room to grow.

gallihergreen
01-26-2013, 12:37 PM
If you're considering a 4500/5500 series truck, check out the International TerraStar too. As for what Kelly said, the commercial/fleet sales manager at my local Chevy dealer said the new 4500/5500 GM is all but a done deal. But even if what you said about Obummer is true, he and the liberals in the Senate will be gone in 2016 when the American people get tired of his class warfare/job killing agenda anyway.
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Woodman1
01-26-2013, 12:43 PM
Gallihergreen - let's hope we can make it that long!!!
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gallihergreen
01-26-2013, 12:46 PM
Gallihergreen - let's hope we can make it that long!!!
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We'll be alright. :usflag:
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hosejockey2002
01-26-2013, 01:47 PM
No good comparison in weight hauling capacity from a 3500 series to a true (not pickup) 450/4500 series. So even if you are a die hard GM guy GM is not an option for you unless you want to sacrifice big-time payload. Those mason dumps are heavy! Figure each truck will weigh about 10K unloaded. So you get either 3300 or 6000 pounds of payload. That's a no-brainer. In fact if I were going to get a little mason dump I'd go right to the 550/5500. Truck costs a little more and weighs a little more but then you can get a payload of closer to 8000 pounds. You can almost do real work with that.

On the gas vs. diesel, these days that's tough. Ford still uses the Triton V10, a tried and true engine. With diesel emissions garbage these days, the gas engine will almost certainly give you less headaches and cost you less in repairs. That said, diesel will give you better mileage so you will get fuel less often. Not saying you will save money though. A diesel will really shine when hauling heavy and towing at the same time. That's what these motors are made to do. I'd drive both and think long and hard if you are going with Ford.

The other guys did well to bring up the Ram, or Dodge, or whatever-they-call-themselves this week 4500 series. I would give them strong consideration. No gas option with Ram, as everybody knows they use the Cummins B series engine, of which there are probably about 100,000,000 of them in use around the world in countless applications. They also use an Aisin-sourced transmission. Aisin builds transmissions for Isuzu and other Japanese trucks, and have a great reputation.

So I would do your homework. In my opinion brand loyalty has no place in buying a truck for commercial use. Keep an open mind and while it's always good to keep others opinions in mind, they are all worth what they cost you (which of course is nothing), find the truck that you like and will suit the needs of your business.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-26-2013, 02:59 PM
Another feature of the Ram 4500s that can not be over looked is fuel tank size. 52 gallons is a lot of diesel. I get 550-900 miles on a tank aren't too many guys here that can say that.

Pietro
01-26-2013, 04:44 PM
Id search for an older (pre emission) diesel dump. Try to find a ford with the 7.3 or a Dmax/Allison. I was amazed when I searched craigslist in the southern states. They had a lot of 4x4 dump trucks and they were all clean, 0 rust, and decently priced. New trucks are awesome, but new truck payments SUCK! One day I will need a new to me truck, and Im prob going to be going down south to get it.

GallucciLandscaping
01-31-2013, 08:03 AM
Does anyone have reports of the mileage to be expected out of the ford v10 gasser?

As nice as the diesel is for power, these darn emissions have sure ycaused some problems for guys in my area. Add to that, the mileage from today's diesels aren't that of the older ones (fuel mileage that is)

gallihergreen
01-31-2013, 08:36 PM
Does anyone have reports of the mileage to be expected out of the ford v10 gasser?

I wouldn't expect more than 10-11 mpg.
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Marek
01-31-2013, 09:27 PM
If you are looking at a 450 w/ v10 you may see 9 mpg with a tail wind and thats it . They are limited to the 4:88 rears

J&R Landscaping
02-01-2013, 12:49 AM
My 2007 F250 V-10 with 4:10's get around 8 maybe 8.25mpg towing my 8x16 enclosed trailer.. They say the taller gears help but the v-10 is a thirsty engine, though it is a very sound engine.

GallucciLandscaping
02-06-2013, 01:31 PM
I have a 2007 Chevy 3500hd dump with the 6.0L gas and 4.10 gears. That thing only gets 7-8 mpg and it doesn't matter if I'm loaded or not. I have a few friends with F450/F550 Vito the v10 gas and 4.88 gears. They are reporting 6-8 mpg. At those numbers all you can do is hope/pray that gas doesn't go over $5

mkwl
02-06-2013, 02:16 PM
I have a 2007 Chevy 3500hd dump with the 6.0L gas and 4.10 gears. That thing only gets 7-8 mpg and it doesn't matter if I'm loaded or not. I have a few friends with F450/F550 Vito the v10 gas and 4.88 gears. They are reporting 6-8 mpg. At those numbers all you can do is hope/pray that gas doesn't go over $5

Yeah I know they don't do well on MPG's but I'm after the simplicity/lower repair and maintenance costs of a gas engine over a diesel. How's your 3500HD handle payloads/towing? I can get a new 2012 GMC 3500HD 6.0L Gas 4x4 mason dump for $31,000 so I'm leaning that way but I want to make sure I'm not buying an undersized truck...

GallucciLandscaping
02-07-2013, 08:31 AM
Mkwl, I love my 3500hd. Never had one issue with it. Hauls anything I've ever asked of it, pulls our 12k equip trailer just fine. Absolutely love it. That being said, it just doesn't have a great payload. DOT is really tough in my area and getting tougher. I'm considering purchase of an f550 to stay legal all the time and not worry. If you have side boards on the 3500 and put mulch in it you are legally overweight. I work to hard to be spending money on fines, I'd rather spend that money on a truck payment and keep working rather than being weighed with DOT all the time. I'm sure you could get anF450 4x4 with dump bed for 38-40k depending on bed and options. Really something to consider AND you can always take on bigger jobs now that you would have bigger equip.

robertsturf
02-08-2013, 05:07 PM
After doing months of research, wearing out my friends and calling or e-mailing every dealer with-in 500 miles I am buying a new 2012 3500HD 4x4, gas auto, dually with a flat-bed already on it. Reasons: diesel too expensive to maintain and very problematic, not many around in good shape, most trucks around here are the 6.0 Ford time-bombs and are still over-priced. The truck is mainly to be used for mulch, hauling mowers and for leaves in the fall. Putting my Boss V for snow. Having a hoist installed and drop down sides. This truck is the best for our business, doesn't mean it would work for everyone. Also the DOT issues are another reason to pick a 3500 over 450.