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View Full Version : Can Exmark continue to compete


Greyst1
01-25-2013, 10:38 PM
Alright guys, like all smart men i like to speculate about our industry's future and we all know price on equipment plays a role. With 2013 equipment on dealers floors now i see the prices keep getting higher and higher. Some more than others, some ridiculous.... I don't want this thread to turn into a brand war so lets keep it clean and but please do speak you mind.

I'd like to hear if Exmark users and Exmark brand loyalist think if Exmark can continue to complete at their new price points. I hear TT's are going for just under 10K and Lazer Z's X series for just under 13K (loaded).

Now, i see that Toro finally started to advertise Exmark on LS so please we know big brother will be watching and i don't want this thread getting deleted or shut down. I believe allot of good discussion can be had.

So now that's out of the way let get into the details.

Look, I really believe that Toro will either phase out the Exmark brand or they will have to reengineer their product to WOW the industry to justify their high prices. I've said this a dozen times on here how their core competency is in steel fabrication and their technology is in the deck. However, as many of us know Exmark decks are great for dry average growth but leave allot to be desired int he over all category and wet grass category.

I'm not hating at all, i started off with a Lazer Z HP and felt it was only average, but with mower mfgr's like Snapper Pro, Bobcat, Badboy, Encore i'm looking at those after i look at Ferris, Scag, Deere, Husky 1st and maybe Exmark comes in # 8 or 9 on the list. I just think they have totally lost their competitive edge.

Why, because they over priced compared to the competition and really i see better mower out there. Everyone that knows me on here knows that I think Ferris has the solution to commercial mowing with Scag a solid #2 (just my opinion). Right now i'm looking at adding a walk or a stander and i'm not even considering Exmark or Toro. I just would like to hear from other pro's if they too think they have priced themselves out of the market. Like i've said before Toro has no real reason to keep the Exmark brand alive (manufacturing & engineering tech yes.

So having said that what say you???

knox gsl
01-25-2013, 11:01 PM
I am with you on this. I have had 3 Exmark machines and like you said they are great on perfect grass but really drop the ball in less than ideal conditions. What I find funny is that they haven't really done anything to change their product line over the years except 2 things, new lazer and the vantage. Lets not forget that they have had the same walk behind lineup for more than ten years with the only update being a name change and dropping the 32" hydro Viking. The Vantage while nice and relatively new is little more than a Grandstand with a Series 4 deck on it which has been around for several years as well. That leads us to the Next Lazer Z, maybe one of the smoothest, easy to operate mowers I've ever been on. It comes with a great Series 6 deck and leaves a great finish, well unless you are mowing before 10am or the lawn has a few weeds then all you get is clumps and double cutting. As of now the only Exmark/Toro machines I will consider is a 21"/30" mower. I have bought a Scag 52" Vride and don't see myself going back.

New2TheGreenIndustry
01-25-2013, 11:01 PM
If you haven't noticed, the cost of almost everything has increased(property excluded). Have you been to the grocery store lately? It's not just mowers.

New2TheGreenIndustry
01-25-2013, 11:04 PM
I am with you on this. I have had 3 Exmark machines and like you said they are great on perfect grass but really drop the ball in less than ideal conditions. What I find funny is that they haven't really done anything to change their product line over the years except 2 things, new lazer and the vantage. Lets not forget that they have had the same walk behind lineup for more than ten years with the only update being a name change and dropping the 32" hydro Viking. The Vantage while nice and relatively new is little more than a Grandstand with a Series 4 deck on it which has been around for several years as well. That leads us to the Next Lazer Z, maybe one of the smoothest, easy to operate mowers I've ever been on. It comes with a great Series 6 deck and leaves a great finish, well unless you are mowing before 10am or the lawn has a few weeds then all you get is clumps and double cutting. As of now the only Exmark/Toro machines I will consider is a 21"/30" mower. I have bought a Scag 52" Vride and don't see myself going back.

I assume you're cutting warm season over there?

Greyst1
01-25-2013, 11:04 PM
If you haven't noticed, the cost of almost everything has increased(property excluded). Have you been to the grocery store lately? It's not just mowers.

Everything but wages, and yes things have gone up. Property has only gone up because they took huge decreases from 06' to present. I don't remember mowers dropping prices.

smallstripesnc
01-25-2013, 11:05 PM
I searched around for a zero turn and was very surprised at how expensive exmark was. I went with a gravely some due to price but because I have a gravely walk behind and really like the mower.

Its all expensive and prices will keep rising but we cant charge a ton more because of it.
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knox gsl
01-25-2013, 11:09 PM
I assume you're cutting warm season over there?

Fescue, Bermuda and Zoysia. The one that shines the most is my TThp36 mowing bermuda with a mulch kit.

Jimslawncareservice
01-25-2013, 11:10 PM
I got a quote for 2 left over vantages for 7100 each. They have over 2 dozen. 2013 are a little higher they say. It's about the same price as v rides and wrights/deere standers. X series exmarks deeres r series and Scag turf tigers are within 500 of each other. Now you get into ferris and snapper you save a ton of money especially if your not a current user.

With that said, I think too many people know the exmark name as being superior in the mowing world. More people in the residential world know toro. I myself will exmark each time over toro. I just don't care for the turbo force, plus my toro dealer sucks something awful. I think some dealers know people will buy exmark no matter what and capitalize on it. Some bigger dealers do what we do. Price high on small guys or people they may not want to deal with.
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knox gsl
01-25-2013, 11:15 PM
I've noticed the dealers around here pushing the smaller outfits to pay more but kiss up to the bigger companies. There are 2 rather large operations here both have over 200 employees each and both have Exmark and Scag in their lineup. They can't be paying what we pay for this equipment. There is another relatively large company here and they won't deal with Exmark they run Snapper and Honda mowers.

Greyst1
01-25-2013, 11:18 PM
I got a quote for 2 left over vantages for 7100 each. They have over 2 dozen. 2013 are a little higher they say. It's about the same price as v rides and wrights/deere standers. X series exmarks deeres r series and Scag turf tigers are within 500 of each other. Now you get into ferris and snapper you save a ton of money especially if your not a current user.

With that said, I think too many people know the exmark name as being superior in the mowing world. More people in the residential world know toro. I myself will exmark each time over toro. I just don't care for the turbo force, plus my toro dealer sucks something awful. I think some dealers know people will buy exmark no matter what and capitalize on it. Some bigger dealers do what we do. Price high on small guys or people they may not want to deal with.
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When i bought my Ferris i was able to score a deal, 2012 & 2013 models went up in price, i think they are running about 10,700 or so. Around here, Exmark is higher than 500 from it competitors plus they come complimentary with poor services dealers. Another issue to worry about at least for me. I will agree there has been an increase industry wide, just Exmarks are every year, higher and higher.

weaver
01-25-2013, 11:23 PM
I thought so to at first about Exmark pricing, but the more i compare brands the more i find they're not the only one's. Compare a full top of the line Exmark X series to gravely or a new John deere.. About the same.. It's right here on this site to check for yourself, 48" John deere R series 11k plus.. Exmark's not the only one...

LandFakers
01-25-2013, 11:29 PM
Too bad my horrible dealer sells scag and exmark so I can't look at scag. And I have seen huge price increases on Deere equipment over the last few years so it's not just exmark. It's not like exmark has brought any totally new to the market. All mowers these days have the same motor and hydraulics so it's down to the seat, deck, and frame. And the only one that really matters is deck so how different can all these mowers be? I love my exmark like nobody's business, but I'm sure it would be different if I didn't get a smoking deal on it, and it was still expensive for a used model. I wish the hustler dealer didn't close down over here, they were selling brand new 66" Super Z's for a smidge over 9k out the door. Wish I bought one when I was at the dealer that one day.... Well those are my thoughts, out to plow :waving:

Jimslawncareservice
01-25-2013, 11:33 PM
When i bought my Ferris i was able to score a deal, 2012 & 2013 models went up in price, i think they are running about 10,700 or so. Around here, Exmark is higher than 500 from it competitors plus they come complimentary with poor services dealers. Another issue to worry about at least for me. I will agree there has been an increase industry wide, just Exmarks are every year, higher and higher.

Ferris and snapper may have gone up, but for example, a snapper 48" hydro walk behind I was quoted over 6k. Being a non customer I can get it in the 4k range. I didn't get an exact quote.
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New2TheGreenIndustry
01-25-2013, 11:34 PM
I've noticed the dealers around here pushing the smaller outfits to pay more but kiss up to the bigger companies. There are 2 rather large operations here both have over 200 employees each and both have Exmark and Scag in their lineup. They can't be paying what we pay for this equipment. There is another relatively large company here and they won't deal with Exmark they run Snapper and Honda mowers.

For starters, they get a fleet discount. I talked to a large owner in ATL, and he said he gets a great deal. The main reason he ran Navigator over Walker.

Greyst1
01-25-2013, 11:38 PM
I think thats where i went wrong, i shoulda bought on fleet pricing but the initial investment was hard to swallow. Definitely plays a factor, gonna get some fleet pricing soon.

weaver
01-25-2013, 11:39 PM
Another thing it depends on where you are at. On another thread not to long ago alot of guys chimed in with there prices on new mowers and everyone was different...
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dathorpe
01-26-2013, 12:00 AM
All I've ever owned have been 500 series Z Masters and Lazer Z's with Kohler air cooled engines. I really don't have a whole lot bad to say about those machines. Somebody on this thread mentioned he was an Exmark guy and hated the Toro Turbo Force decks. Honestly, after all these years with Exmark & Toro, I can't say I see a difference in the cut. Never have.

For me, the conversation begins and ends with Exmark, Toro, or Scag. I really have no interest in Dixie Chopper, Kubota, Ferris, JD, or any others. The only other brand mower I would ever consider owning is Scag. I've always admired Scag machines. I just never had a reason to switch from what I've always used. Until this year.

It just seems Exmark's build quality is going down. I don't like plastic pulleys. And I can get Turf Tigers with Briggs 35 engines for considerably less than an Exmark. ...And the velocity deck is very appealing.

I still want to demo a new X series Exmark 60" before I make up my mind. But the price tag, along with a few other things, has me leaning heavily in the direction of Scag.

Ridin' Green
01-26-2013, 01:14 AM
They are all going up in cost, no doubt, but here, Exmark is just rediculously overpriced compared to any other brand. I don't like the fact that they are a dry cut machine only if you are wanting a top notch cut, and I will never buy one either because of that, and the price difference. Ferris here is just a touch higher than JD, and Hustler and Scag are really close to JD for price. Snapper Pro is a lot less money, and a heck of a machine for the price. Toro is about as bad as Exmark here these days. Gravely makes an excellent machine, but their top end mowers are about the same price as JD, Hustler and Scag.

skorum03
01-26-2013, 01:41 AM
I'm pretty new to the lawn care community, but from what I've read of people's opinions, what it seems is that people seem to think that exmark is superior in the commercial mowing field, much like many residential home owners believe a john deere lawn tractor is much better than anything out there too when the comparable product of, say, a husqvarna is significantly less expensive. Just an observation.

YardBros Outdoors
www.yardbros.com

PabsMaster
01-26-2013, 01:45 AM
For me, the conversation begins and ends with Exmark, Toro, or Scag. I really have no interest in Dixie Chopper, Kubota, Ferris, JD, or any others. The only other brand mower I would ever consider owning is Scag. I've always admired Scag machines. I just never had a reason to switch from what I've always used. Until this year.

It just seems Exmark's build quality is going down. I don't like plastic pulleys. And I can get Turf Tigers with Briggs 35 engines for considerably less than an Exmark. ...And the velocity deck is very appealing.

Agreed, Exmarks in my area are ridiculous, and the build quality is decreasing. BUT the prices have gone up for all machines in my area. It just happens that Scag has the best bang for the buck were I live.

ddixon7
01-26-2013, 02:26 AM
I will continue to buy Exmark. The reason is because we only have one dealer close, and he only sells Exmark and Grasshopper. And, I think their walk behinds suit me better because they don't have pistol grips to get tangled with objects like chain link fences..

But, if another dealership was close enough, I would take a look at other walk behinds. I am going to buy another Encore 36". I feel for a 36" that is only going to get used on 20 back yards a week, I am not going to spend 6 grand on a Exmark 36". My Encore 36" has lasted me about 20 years, and was my only big mower for 2 or 3 of those 20 years. I used to run all Encore until my dealer switched to Exmark (and Encore quit making its 52 hydro walk behind also).

dathorpe
01-26-2013, 08:50 AM
I think their walk behinds suit me better because they don't have pistol grips to get tangled with objects like chain link fences.

That is very true. I'll probably continue using Exmark for walk behind work because of the ECS handles... and the Turf Tracer hydro is still tough to beat.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-26-2013, 03:31 PM
I'll be dropping 30k on 2 new exmarks this spring I am very impressed with how much innovation they have in the 2013s over the models I presently own. Governed EFI motors 16 cc pumps with the wheel motors in one unit. Yes the price is a lot more than when I bought my 27 hp 60 inch lazer in 2003 for 8k plus 2k for the vac system. But were also talking 34-38 hp EFI motors 33% larger pumps 20% faster cutting speeds. Its not the same machine plus the costs of everything they use as gone through the roof steel is not cheap tires are now ridiculously priced. So I do not see the prices as outrageous and if they are over priced were talking 5-15% range not 50%.

Greyst1
01-26-2013, 09:06 PM
I dont buy the argument of increase steel prices, inflation, or the popular "everything has gone up". My background is manufacturing and when manufactures take increases on components and raw materials they make a decision, either to pass it on to the customer or offset the price increase through other means. Other means = sourcing materials and purchased parts trough new suppliers, low cost country sourcing, redesign, BOM changes, assembly outsourcing, lower grade components and innovations. Now that last design from Exmark is about 5 years old now which i believe was good but it's still nothing to pay 13K over.

Anyhow, 2 machines = 30K, just wow is all i can say. I mean if your product is Exmark's cut quality then your job is to maintain the quality with your customers so i can see not wanting to switch or anything but for 15K you can get two snapper pro's and pocket the other 15K.

weaver
01-26-2013, 09:13 PM
It's funny everyone complains about what's wrong with a mower, but when the manufactuer fixes the problems they complain about price increase. Exmark is way better than 5 or 10 years ago..
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Kelly's Landscaping
01-26-2013, 09:29 PM
I don't set the prices they did I am working with that they offer I will be getting to lazer Z X models one with a 60 inch deck the other with a 72 inch deck. The 60 will have a 34 hp EFI and the 72 will have the 38 hp EFI they will both have trac vac systems. And with any luck I will get out of there for 30k after taxes but that remains to be seen. As much as Id like the diesels the idea of dropping 40k for 2 mowers was to much to handle.

yardguy28
01-27-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't know if they can continue to compete or not. I know how popular they are in my neck of the woods and that's pretty popular. most guys use exmarks and toros.

one thing I've noticed is that brands seem to be differently priced in different locations. I've been seeing people talking lately about how high priced exmarks are and in my neck of the woods I'm just not seeing it.

here's the dealers website I use:

muttonpower.com

you can find some prices on some of there equipment. if you can't let me know and I'll post a direct link to a few.

here exmarks and toros are the cheapest prices wise.

I love there quality and feel they are right up there with the rest, the rest for me being scag, walker and wright stander. so I will continue to use exmarks and toros exclusively.

mowcrazy
01-27-2013, 08:20 PM
I don't think there going anywhere but I will put forth my .02.....

First off, I can get scag tiger cats for $8,400+tax out the door with a 27hp koehler, suspension seat, and the velocity deck. Anyone who has owned both the ultracut and velocity machines........ well, there is just no comparison in my area when it comes to cut quality. We have lots of weeds and weedy grasses in this area and the velocity is hands down the winner.

For the comparable exmark with the cushy seat which is nice but still not as absorbing as the suspension seat on the scag, with ultracut deck which isnt as good of a deck as velocity I would have to shell out right at $10,500+tax.......

no brainer:hammerhead:

Its amazing honestly....... in my area im kinda the company every knows of and I have a lot of folks ask my opinions and my opinion is go to our local dealer and ask to demo everything they have brandwise. Our dealer carries wright, exmark, bobcat, and scag.

I always tell them that I lean towards scag but why not demo them all for yourself and so far ALL of them have orange mowers now. Why not, there cheaper and cut better in this area........ Not to mention the best deck on the planet to date for less than the competitors...........

None of them have anything bad to say about the orange mowers..... Our local dealer now carries gravely and he saids hes been selling the heck out of those, approx as many as scags he sells and thats pretty impressive.

weaver
01-27-2013, 08:24 PM
I don't think there going anywhere but I will put forth my .02.....

First off, I can get scag tiger cats for $8,400+tax out the door with a 27hp koehler, suspension seat, and the velocity deck. Anyone who has owned both the ultracut and velocity machines........ well, there is just no comparison in my area when it comes to cut quality. We have lots of weeds and weedy grasses in this area and the velocity is hands down the winner.

For the comparable exmark with the cushy seat which is nice but still not as absorbing as the suspension seat on the scag, with ultracut deck which isnt as good of a deck as velocity I would have to shell out right at $10,500+tax.......

no brainer:hammerhead:

Its amazing honestly....... in my area im kinda the company every knows of and I have a lot of folks ask my opinions and my opinion is go to our local dealer and ask to demo everything they have brandwise. Our dealer carries wright, exmark, bobcat, and scag.

I always tell them that I lean towards scag but why not demo them all for yourself and so far ALL of them have orange mowers now. Why not, there cheaper and cut better in this area........ Not to mention the best deck on the planet to date for less than the competitors...........

None of them have anything bad to say about the orange mowers..... Our local dealer now carries gravely and he saids hes been selling the heck out of those, approx as many as scags he sells and thats pretty impressive.

Those new Gravely 460,s do look awesome but they're pricey as well...
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Snapper Jack
01-27-2013, 08:52 PM
None of them have anything bad to say about the orange mowers..... Our local dealer now carries gravely and he saids hes been selling the heck out of those, approx as many as scags he sells and thats pretty impressive.
The Scags and Gravelys have a coulple things in common in regards to cutting and that's having a deck that'll perform exceptionally well in all conditions wet or dry not just biased for one condition. There are several LCO owners who've made the switch from Scag to Gravely and those Gravelys lay down amazing cut wet or dry. I hope to own a Scag with a Velocity deck some day:drinkup:

mowcrazy
01-27-2013, 09:22 PM
The Scags and Gravelys have a coulple things in common in regards to cutting and that's having a deck that'll perform exceptionally well in all conditions wet or dry not just biased for one condition. There are several LCO owners who've made the switch from Scag to Gravely and those Gravelys lay down amazing cut wet or dry. I hope to own a Scag with a Velocity deck some day:drinkup:

I actually got to try one of the new gravelys out. It was the one with the air ride seat and that was a SUPER IMPRESSIVE part of the machine. there was one thing that I wasnt a huge fan of on the gravely I tried and that was how high you sat on the machine. Used this mower in a few of my usual yards and I couldnt get under the trees that I could get under with my tiger cats which did in turn make me have to trim more and Im fat so that was definetly not good!!! LOL the tiger cats you sit very low which im a fan of. Not tearing your head off on low hanging limbs most times.

I always thought that scag dispersed grass better because the huge discharge opening but your right the gravely did an exceptional job with the small opening.......... The deck is impressive for sure.

GMLC
02-01-2013, 06:48 PM
What I do now is spend enough to qualify for fleet pricing. I bought my Gravely 452 with a bagger for 10600 or so. I had to spend over 12k which I was over with the one mower. 20% off really brought the price down to reason.
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Greyst1
02-01-2013, 08:12 PM
What I do now is spend enough to qualify for fleet pricing. I bought my Gravely 452 with a bagger for 10600 or so. I had to spend over 12k which I was over with the one mower. 20% off really brought the price down to reason.
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Right there should tell everyone how much margin there really is on selling new equipment.

mtmower
02-02-2013, 12:49 AM
The Scags and Gravelys have a coulple things in common in regards to cutting and that's having a deck that'll perform exceptionally well in all conditions wet or dry not just biased for one condition. There are several LCO owners who've made the switch from Scag to Gravely and those Gravelys lay down amazing cut wet or dry. I hope to own a Scag with a Velocity deck some day:drinkup:

I actually got to try one of the new gravelys out. It was the one with the air ride seat and that was a SUPER IMPRESSIVE part of the machine. there was one thing that I wasnt a huge fan of on the gravely I tried and that was how high you sat on the machine. Used this mower in a few of my usual yards and I couldnt get under the trees that I could get under with my tiger cats which did in turn make me have to trim more and Im fat so that was definetly not good!!! LOL the tiger cats you sit very low which im a fan of. Not tearing your head off on low hanging limbs most times.

I always thought that scag dispersed grass better because the huge discharge opening but your right the gravely did an exceptional job with the small opening.......... The deck is impressive for sure.

Gravely certainly has a lot of things going for it. In my area, with the fleet pricing, it put Hustler SZ out of the park by about 3k diff, but definitely demo it in your type of grass before pulling the plug.

IXINRGIXI
02-04-2013, 10:47 PM
i was and die-hard exmark fan i have own a 48" viking for 2 years and a 52" turf tracer for three years. i do agree with you as well that they have become over priced thought my dealership, which is the #2 dealership in sales, says that they are not over priced at all when the price tag say $8,700.00 ... lol ya right. but recently a really good friend of mine got a scag turf tiger and a grasshopper 335. both those mowers cut WAY better then exmark would have ever dreamed of and have a price range that is VERY reasonable. i no longer a exmark fan. ill be selling my turf tracer as soon as i have the fund to buy a brand new walkbehind mower which will be in a year or two.

IXINRGIXI
02-04-2013, 10:50 PM
That is very true. I'll probably continue using Exmark for walk behind work because of the ECS handles... and the Turf Tracer hydro is still tough to beat.

i heard through a scag salesman and an owner of a dealer that scag is coming out with a new walkbehind VERY VERY shortly and will have something REALLY similar to the ECS handles so keep your eyes peeled

yardguy28
02-04-2013, 11:01 PM
maybe I need my eyes checked.

I'm looking at the pieces at my dealership and I'm not seeing a huge increase from 7 years ago when I got into the business. I'm also not seeing another mower on the market that screams quality over any other brand.

I have exmark, toro, scag, walker and wright stander available to me. exmark and toro are the cheapest in price of this brands. and the others don't scream anything that makes them any better than the toros and exmarks I use that would make me pay the higher price. I see a similar quality of cut in all of them.

if you ask me what's high priced I'd say scag, wright stander and walker. I can't find a mower in any size of any those brands for under $10k.