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View Full Version : Announcement for educational purpose only.


Kirk
02-17-2003, 11:08 AM
I just think this is the best thing to hit landscaping since the Power screed was introduced to concrete floors and will hit the market like vinal siding did.

Hi Everyone,
I found a product that Landscapers and natural stone path, patio and driveway installers may (oh heck,,) "will" find useful. It's called Immobest Sandbinder. It's been used in Europe for over 20 years and is now available in North America. I found out about this through my wife who was a landscape engineer in Munich Germany for the past 15 years.
It's a liquid that you mix with silica sand that offers a bond in the gaps of new and old projects. The nice thing about it is, it is really easy to use. Sabine, my wife, absolutely insisted that we use it, and now I can see why. She installed a mix of slate and granite for our floor and then used the sandbinder mix to grout. She was done in around 1/2 hour after she laid the rock of course (took around 8 hours to lay the rock) and by her-self I might add. The sandbinder mix hardens a rock remaining semi-flexible, preventing the growth of weeds, grass and moss but still allows water to pass through to eliminate standing water. I have never seen a product like it before. Unlike concrete, there is no mess and unlike polymeric sand there is little to no room for error. Sabine was able send out her even "moderately experienced" workers to install, which saved her time and (if you really THINK about it) made her a lot of money.

How it works, mix the sandbinder with sand for about 4 to 5 minutes, poor in small piles over your floor. Use a hard bristle broom to sweep into your gaps, use a soft bristle broom to sweep off any left over sand mix, let cure for 12 hours for light use and 24 hours for heavy use. That's it. The floor looks awesome with sand between the grout and holds its look for at least 15 years that we know of so far.

One more good point I think you should know is, Sabine had no callbacks as far as Immobest was concerned in the 15 years of using it.

Although Sabine's main business was design, planting and pruning, she used Immobest weekly, and in the non-planting season she used Immobest daily. There are many companies in Europe that actually use Sandinder as their primary business installing new projects and re-grouting old project.

I hope everyone finds this information usefull. I have several other businesses myself and don't have the time to fit installation of Immobest into my already congested schedual. If anyone would like to know more, please feel free to ask and I do my best to answer your questions.

All the best and happy gardening.
Kirk

Lanelle
02-17-2003, 02:32 PM
Welcome Kirk! We've used polymeric sand in the past so this is very interesting. Thanks for the great post. Hope there will be lots more from you.

Kirk
02-17-2003, 03:09 PM
Hi Lanelle,
Thank you for the kind words.

Personally, I am actually curious about how polymeric sand works for you. My wife tried it once in Germany and took it out because it didn't look right. The owners weren't very happy with it. I haven't had a chance to work with it myself over here in Canada. It seems if you are using it, it must be at least usable. What benefits and problems do you find there are using Polymeric sand?
Kirk

AGLA
02-17-2003, 04:17 PM
Is this used as a filler for an expansion joint? ... or what?

Kirk
02-17-2003, 04:44 PM
No, it's used in the spaces between your stone or tile, just like as if you were to grout your bathroom tile but in your landscape instead. It's mainly for grouting slate, natural stone, pavers, brick, and just about anything else that doesn't come to mind at this moment. It's recommended while you lay your patio, path or driveway that you leave a minimum of 3/8" space between your rock to be filled with the sandbinder mix.
Here's what it looks like, not a very good pic, but should give you an idea




http://24.150.96.172/pics/finished2.jpg

bruces
02-17-2003, 05:09 PM
Where is this available?

Company, website, etc.

Seems interesting.

SCL
02-17-2003, 05:28 PM
I just received my 2003 list from Probst/Pave Tech and they have a product that sounds quite similar called Sandlock. Mixes with your sand to stabilize the joints. Been around a year or two. I currently use poly sand and love it. Spreads like sand, harden when wetted. You can find sandlock at <a>www.pavetech.com<a/>

Kirk
02-17-2003, 06:17 PM
Similar, but still seems there may be a problem with accidentally washing out grout lines and the fact that Sandlock is water based which adds up to the problem of braking down over time due to rain. What's with the tamper? Wouldn't slate be destroyed by a tamper? Sandbinder is 95% natural made of linseed oil and is impervious to water. Have you tried Sandlock yet?

Here is the company that offers it by container and by the pallet but didn't offer to sell it by the bottle, their phone number is 1-866-791-1934. They are the only importer in North America and are looking for retail outlets to stock. I called them when I needed some and they directed me to a place here in Canada called Battlefield. I don't have Battlefields phone number though but I can find out if you’re interested. I passed the number to a few landscape friends around here already and they told me they are going to push their suppliers to get it in.

Just for laughs I asked how much came in a pallet, they told me 400 liters. More than I needed but I thought the information would be helpful to at least someone. If I were back in Germany I wouldn't hesitate so much. It would take us about a year, being already established, I would have no problem moving that much Immobest.

Kirk

Lanelle
02-18-2003, 01:12 AM
Polymeric sand is swept into the joints of interlocking pavers. The joints are smaller than you mentioned (about 1/8") and don't show as much. It is used in place of washed concrete sand. The point of this type of joint is to establish the interlock and maintain joint flexibility.

Kirk
02-18-2003, 11:04 AM
That makes sense for interlock. Interlock blocks do offer a nice uniform look if that is what the customer is looking for. I still like a little more joint to show, with the possibilities of using a combination of different rocks types like we did here with Granite and Slate. The possibilities seem endless. I'm not sure how many people have had a chance to visit Europe. Their talented methods for creating sidewalks and roads using granite are simply artistic (I use the term "simply" quite loosely). We have searched for a tumbled granite supplier here in Canada and had very little luck finding anyone who has it.

Stonehenge
02-18-2003, 11:28 AM
I've been introduced to a product from Canada called Enviro-Bond. It's an organic versus polymeric.

Haven't had a chance to try it, but have seen and felt pieces of it after wetting, and i've seen some test photos. Seems promising and will likely test a little this year.

The only problem I see with an organic is, well, that it's organic. Anything organic breaks down over time. That's the nature of organic things. I just wonder how long that process is, and if there are any negative side effects to it.

Kirk - I notice a yellowing in the joints in part of the pic - does that product hold stains?

As for tumbled granite, I know a few places in Wisconsin where it can be had.

(And Kirk, check your PMs).


Jeff

Kirk
02-18-2003, 11:46 AM
Sorry, that picture is the result of bad film or a poor scan. Immobest coats the sand grain and does resist stains. I have had no experiences with stains in the past using this product. I do imagine if you spill a can of oil-based paint and didn't clean it up right away it would be a pain to get out. Of course, this would be true with any surface. The nice thing is you can fairly easily chip out the old grout and replace it with new. Immobest really is a great asset to exterior grouting. Based on it factors in my personal opinion, there isn't anything that stands up to it as far as ease of use and maintenance. It's just an outstanding product plain and simple.


Do you have the name of that supplier? I really would like to talk to them and see what they have available.

Kirk
02-19-2003, 05:34 PM
I changed the picture above to a more recent one. The old one was a job we did years ago and it was a scanned picture and wasn't a very good picture to begin with.
This one better shows how easy it is to use wide and thin joints along with different types of rock and sizes.

Stonehenge
02-20-2003, 02:14 AM
Looks like the sand is staying pretty smooth. What I want to know is, why did your wife do all the work?

Kirk
02-20-2003, 12:02 PM
Hi Stonehenge, my name is Sabine...I am Kirk's wife. I did all the work, first of all...because I love laying floors, second of all, I was specially trained in designing, flower beads and natural stone laying in Germany. I don't really like sharing a projects to much :) I always had my employees helping me in Germany, and it seems, the more people who work on a project, the more inconsistant your work looks.

Kirk
02-24-2003, 12:08 PM
Here is the site for Immobest you requested.
Immobest (http://www.outofthewoods.ca/immobest.htm)

Kirk
03-15-2003, 07:00 PM
Immobest now has a new web-site www.sandbinder.com
Also, for the first time ever, brilliant colors are being introduced to exterior grouting.

Let me know what you think.
Kirk

Kirk
06-03-2003, 11:17 AM
Let us know if you need any information. How's the natural stone industry doing? Have there been many requests for natural stone paths? and have you been copping-out by talking your customers into inter-loc?

:D

Sorry I haven't been on in a while, We have been doing really well and time has been very limited. I hope I haven't missed anything.

Talk to ya soon,
Kirk