08-26-2000, 04:11 PM

08-26-2000, 04:24 PM
1. For an established lawn 4-pounds per 1000 sf. For a renovation 6-8 pounds per 1000 but I do not aerate renovations.

2. If dry have customer water the day before and day of if possible. Soil test, mow, aerate, seed, fert, and instruct customer on water, water, water, water, lightly 3 times a day if possible.

3. $24

08-27-2000, 06:51 AM
thanks kirby.
by reading your post and replys seems like it helping a lot of the forum members.

[Edited by anthonygrelli on 08-27-2000 at 11:44 AM]

08-27-2000, 07:41 AM
Would it not matter what type of grass????

John DiMartino
08-27-2000, 06:55 PM
I do exactly what Ray siad,but if I can,i drag back in the plugs and seed,this makes the lawn a lot cleaner and increases germination percentage and you get grass faster this way.This is not practical on all lawns,but at the golf course and on my own lawn or any other open areas this is the ideal way to finish the job,along with a shot of starter fertilizer.

08-27-2000, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by excel25
Would it not matter what type of grass????

Good point, that's my routine for cool season grasses, mainly tall fescue.

08-27-2000, 08:47 PM
kirby:what blend or mix

08-27-2000, 09:05 PM
Here in NC I use the Lesco Transition blend Tall Fescue, in NJ I'm not sure what would be the best. Maybe someone else from the NJ area will post or check with Lesco if around. John D., your in NY, what do you use?

08-27-2000, 10:14 PM
Richard, what relevance does Home Depot and the size of the NC stores have to the content of the post?

John DiMartino
08-27-2000, 10:34 PM
What I use depends on whos lawn im on,one guy has a beatiful bluegrass lawn,which as you know required thatching more.that one gets bluegrass,owner suppies it from home depot I think.Mine is perennial rye,I go light on the seed,I cant be exact because i use an old pull behind spreader that throws it 40 ft,but im guessing im around 2-3lbs/1000.At the golf course we use a rye/bentgrass mix on tees,with Certified Oregon providence creeping bentgrass for greens and collars.We blend in some penncross bent when we verticut in spring.Fairways get perrenial rye at 4lb/1000 twice a year.Rough gets tall fescue/rye blend.Im going to try to blend some more tall fescue into my lawn to keep it greener in the summer heat,I just wonder how itll do up here in the cooler weather spring and fall.

08-28-2000, 06:43 AM
thank you all for the replys.
when you do this process is the core-aeration single pass or dubble pass for $24.00/m.
i was doing the math and at that price there is nice profit.

i am going to format make my flyers to say....
1.single pass core aeration
2.over seeding useing _______ grass seed at a rate up to ____ lbs of seed per 1000 sf.
3. at a price of 24.00 /1000 sf


how about starter fert,and lime if needed , would it be more per m.

what type of gar-ren-teeeee do you give.

sprinkler heads? they mark them or do you?

does this process have it own place in the market or do all the lawns that you seed you core aerate. seems to be a lot less work for me.

i think it will work out well if the seeding part works,lot less work then renavating with a lesco power seeder, no more rakeing up, replace the burnt belt,worn cable,spend 3 hrs. on blade replacement, spend $60.00 on 1 gal of lock tigth and pore it all over the mechine! (i lost more parts)

thanks again

[Edited by anthonygrelli on 08-28-2000 at 08:22 PM]

08-28-2000, 01:52 PM
I usually do single passes except where there are thinned out areas, then I work that area more, but that's no extra charge. Lawns that require 3-4 passes in my opinion are not lawns I would aerate because they would be too thin before starting and I would plan on renovating and starting a new lawn. Lawns that are that thin usually end up growing to look like a baby dolls hair, growing in big plugs, down rows, in a pattern.

Starter is included in my price, lime is not. The only way to know if you need lime is testing the soil. Remember, the guys out in the Midwest sometimes have high pH and need to apply sulfur to lower it, so testing is recommended.

Guarantee? None. I will guarantee that when I'm finished they will find seed covering every part of their lawn at satisfactory amounts. Since watering is the most important part, and the part that is out of my hands I cannot guarantee that it will get done at all, or that it will be done correctly.

They mark the heads, I count them upon arrival, when completed I re-count, if a head is damaged and no flags are missing they forgot to mark it, not me.

I don't put seed on the ground without preparing the ground in some way, mostly either aerating or aeravating.

Hope that helps a little.


08-28-2000, 05:19 PM
ray:how do you explain to the cust. there is no guarantee?

08-28-2000, 09:28 PM
kirby do you use a plug aerator? of verticutter? I have been using turfco's slitseeder for aeration and have had good results . I am intrested in your opinion on this method.

08-29-2000, 11:26 AM
Anthony: There is now way to guarantee the grass will grow, period. No matter how good the product, no matter how good the service, if the grass seed does not receive ample amounts of water on a daily basis, and preferably several times a day, either by rain or irrigation, it will germinate slowly, if at all. The longer the germination process the more risk the lawn has to erosion from heavy rains or flooding from hurricanes. I have no way of monitoring the lawn to ensure it gets watering, so I can't guarantee it will grow.

This puts the customer is a no loose situation, if they forget, go out of town, or whatever and the lawn dies or fails to grow, just call you back and get it done again for FREE! Does anyone here offer a guarantee the grass will grow?

Mountian: I use a core aerator or an aeravator, depending on the terrain and grass condition. I only use a slit seeder for seeding warm season grasses. Because it does not really "aerate" the soil, I do not use it for those purposes, I only use a aerator/aeravator.

Hope that helps.

08-29-2000, 11:35 AM
I am with Kirby on the guarantee. I will not guarantee growth either for the same reasons. Also, opinions may differ, but I won't completely guarantee a new lawn install or renovation in that I tell the customer what needs to be done, but not to expect a lush full lawn in all spots. Some reseeding will most likely need to be done at some time in the future due to seed washout, birds, poor irrigation practices, etc....

08-29-2000, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by richard2
does north carolina have some really great home depots? i just aerate then drop seed via broadcast spreader then spray fulvic acids on the mess....mineral chelation....fully available minerals....( means an amino is now present and allows for passage into membranes)

Richard, I'll ask again, what relevance does Home Depot and the size of the NC stores have to the content of the post? Is this what you're going to do now, just follow people around making comments about what they post? We already have enough people doing that, woe about adding your opinion to the post.


08-30-2000, 09:13 AM
I have read in Pedrotti's book that you can help get better seed to soil contact by rolling the lawn afterplugging and seeding.
Does anyone do this?

08-30-2000, 09:58 AM
Ed, I think it depends on who you ask, and maybe where you live. Most of my reading says don't roll the lawn and I know of no one who does it around here.

08-30-2000, 11:18 AM
The key ingredient in turf seeding success is seed/soil contact. Grass seed should ideally be planted 1/16" deep in soil, but this is not easily accomplished, especially in an overseeding. Speed of germination is accomplished by light intermittent waterings: the seed actually germinates by absorbing water, then drying out and swelling - over and over, until the hull cracks and seed can then grow. It is good also to have the soil loosened so the new seedlings can root easily.
Putting this together, for an overseeding, the best procedure would be to aerate (loosen soil and provide soil contact), then slit seed or broadcast seed at proper rate. Must be aware of germination rates (from memory, may not be exactly right):
overseed by throwing seed over existing lawn = 15% germination
overseed after flail powerrake (or dethatch) = ~20% germ
overseed after core aeration = ~30-50% germ (depends on amount of soil brought up)
slitseeding = 65-70% germination
For a new lawn, tilling is possible to provide loosened growing medium, "planting" after broadcast seeding can be accomplished by dragging lightly with some tool to incorporate seed into soil- must be careful not to get seed too deep!

Irrigate very good to settle seed and soil, and moisten soil to 6" depth at least. Until germination, apply light irrigation 2-3 times a day, allowing soil surface to dry between irrigations (varies with weather and region). After germination starts, increase length of watering so soil doesn't dry for a few days. Then start reducing water to encourage rooting.

Fertilization: best results for me have been application of a starter fert at time of germination at rate of 1#P/1000. All P is then available for rooting.

But do you need to overseed? Depends on your location and turf stresses in immediate past. Kirby does it as a regular practice because he is managing a cool season turf in a borderline warm season area. Turf type tall fescue will get wide blades just like the weed pasture grass, if plant density is not maintained. So summer heat stress losses are compensated by new overseed each year. In our area, overseed has only been necessary 3-4 times in last 20 yrs, and not on all properties. Judgement case by case is necessary.

08-30-2000, 11:28 AM
Very good post Jim, right on the money!

08-30-2000, 03:57 PM

Uninformed new guy here. What type of aerator is an aeravator and what are the advantages?

Garry S. Smith

08-30-2000, 05:27 PM
sounds like this topic is doing well.
thanks for the replys.

i am lineing up my aerating/seeding jobs,my line of work is fertilization,no mowing,thank GOD.BEEN THERE HELP STINKS.
HOW long do i tell the cutters to keep off thr lawns.most of the lawns are still growing well.(lot of rain in n.j.)if they miss to many cuts they are going to be pissed.
what do you think?


08-30-2000, 05:33 PM
Anthony, I only wait a week after I aerate til I start mowing again. Especially this year. I couldn't imagine letting it go 2 weeks!

Eric ELM
08-30-2000, 10:52 PM
Good question, I've been wondering that too. I've never heard anyone talk about it but Kirby.

08-30-2000, 11:01 PM
I mow it shorter or have the homeowner mow it short and mow it 2 weeks later. For my contract customers I give a fair adjustment on the aeration charges to compensate for the skipped week.

08-30-2000, 11:01 PM
Aeravator uses solid tines, which twist when in ground, to fracture soil. See it at http://www.1stproducts.com/. Will take a while to load, except for lucky guys with DSL.

08-30-2000, 11:03 PM
Jim, the Aera-vator is by far the best tool I have ever used, I love it! Do you use one?

08-31-2000, 01:00 AM
I think what Anthony meant was aerating & SEEDING, and how long to wait. Its not good to run new seedlings over with the mowers. I mow short before, and then wait until it looks like my mower might have trouble getting through, to give the new seed bed as much time as possible to establish. Now, if its my maintenance customer, I factor into the price the extra costs to double cut & bag the lawn when the seed bed is established. If its a customer that mows their own, I offer to mow that first time (for a price), so they don't kill their Crapsman, or their body, in the jungle. If they have another contractor mowing,well I haven't run into that yet, so I don't know what advise to give about that. This has worked well for me. Any comments? Do I really not have to worry about running over a new seedbed?

08-31-2000, 07:07 PM
If you are really concerned about mowing new seedlings, simply treat lawn with Primo, mow 3-4 days later to 1-1/2", then do your aerate/seeding. Won't have to mow for at least 3 weeks.

08-31-2000, 09:35 PM
primo cost more per m then the seeding job.
but it will work.
thanks for the reply

08-31-2000, 10:07 PM
Kirbster- Do you have an Aeravator? Stand alone or 3 piont? How do you like it? Do you try to sell it as a "deluxe" areification? Do you charge more than for a regular aerification?

08-31-2000, 10:49 PM
I use the PTO driven Aera-Vator, there is not a stand alone model (that I know of), only the PTO and Gra-sshoper model. If I had my way I would never touch a aerator again! I do not own one because a good friend lets me use his, it's a $15,000 rig and I just pay him. I charge $41.00 per 1000 sf and normally seed at 8 pounds per 1000, 4 pounds applied prior and 4 pounds after application, then fert is applied. Make a plush, thick lawn. I only "up sell" if the lawn is thin with less than 70% or so gr*** coverage, or weed infested.


08-31-2000, 11:51 PM
Sorry, Ray, didn't see your post last nite. I do not use one, but have seen them often at trade shows. Wonder if subsurface compaction might be a problem with them, like a regular aerator. I'd really like to have a pedestrian Verti-Drain though. Just saw new model month ago at Purdue field day. Almost bought an old one 3 yrs ago. They penetrate 6", and give a 5°-8° kick at bottom of plunge.

09-01-2000, 12:19 AM
Jim, the harder the ground the better! Turns it into powder, I'll post a photo when we get started.

09-02-2000, 10:24 PM
thanks for the replys

09-03-2000, 10:34 PM
Couple more questions,for overseeding, you'all just aerate then seed?. In the past i have tried slitseeding(no aerating)results sucked total waste of time. Then went to running a dethatcher over, then aerating, then seed, this worked pretty good, lots more soil contact. This is after cutting low. If i can skip the dethatching step it'd make everything simpler.What do you think?

09-03-2000, 11:27 PM
good question todd. i was thinking the same.
tired of breaking my hump. it core works with seeding it will be a nice thing.

09-06-2000, 07:50 PM
Just wanted to bring this one back to the top to see if i can get a reply?
Do you guys just aerate then broadcast seed and fert.?
I'm going to try this tomm. on a lawn that's pretty decent already, but i think i'm going to roll it after also to make sure it gets good contact.

09-06-2000, 08:39 PM
If you guys just pull plugs then seed, do you use a creeping type grass that will spread via rhizomes, or do you guys use a bunch type grass that will spread very little? I would think that you would need some blue or one of the fine fescues to have a lawn fill in nicely.

On the guarentee, if it will help sell the job, why not? Only catch is that they have to pay for it. Example, seeding job with no guarantee, $250.00. Same seeding job with guarantee, $375.00. This extra $$$ will cover your butt if you have to stop back and drop some seed. If not, then more $$$ for you.

Many of the home supply stores do this with water heaters. The heater is the same, only the guarantee is different. THey have done the math to figure out exactly how to make the most $$$.

09-06-2000, 10:46 PM
After i aearte i over seed the lawn with a chest mounted spreader. I use a seed blend of prennial rye, blue grass and creeping re fecsue so its a sun/shade mix basically.

John DiMartino
09-06-2000, 10:58 PM
Todd,from my experience(11 yrs),you will get better germination by dragging in the seed and cores than rolling,I know this isnt logical,but you get more seed to soil contact this way and thats what grows grass.It is also a lot faster to drag a 5ft piece of fence around than roll it,it cleans up the plugs nice too.I have a nice greens grade mat,but a piece of chain link fence will do.Just do it when its dry or youll make mud and pull seed onto the mat.