Is it a dream or nightmare?

[Envy Lawn Service]

OK I was contacted by a local bank big-wheel. He said "I've seen and like your work. I'm not sure the bank can afford your services. But anyways, I'd like to get some some full service landscape proposals from you for the 2 local banks I'm in charge of." So we scheduled a meeting.

During the meeting I asked what he wanted included in the proposal. He said "well, even though they are far from it, I'd like to get both places in perfect condition. Type up your professional opinions & suggestions about what needs to be done for annual service to put both places in perfect condition & submit it when you are finished."

So I went out and inspected both locations. My overall first impression was cha-ching $$$$!!!! I typed up a maintenance schedule and called him back for a meeting. We sat down and I went over all the aspects of what I put together for him. Then I told him "review all that I have put together, compare it to what is currently being done, hash it out & decide from all that what services you wanted included."

Recently he called to notify me that he had made some decisions and had a list prepared for me. So we set a meeting for today so that I could pick up the list. I also went ahead and planned to measure the properties today so I could put together a proposal ASAP.

When I got there I was extremely surprised. I came with clipboard in hand to take notes only to find he had typed up a 3 page document detailing all that he wanted included in the proposal. I had not scheduled time to proof read a 3 page document. So I took it kindly and went ahead with my measuring.

Both properties were very detailed and it took quite some time to measure things off. After really getting out there all over the properties, I realized I seriously mis-judged things with my earlier quick inspections.

Even though it's 1.3 acres, there is a lot less turf and a lot more landscaping than I 1st thought on one property. Actually the turf area is smaller than I generally accept and the landscaping area is larger than I generally take on. On the other, there is a ton more turf than I thought. There is actually a section of 12,000 sq ft that I didn't know was a part of the property. But that's good. The snag came when I got out back and around the side. I realized there is a deep valley with 2 steep sides surrounding the rear and side parking.

To add to it, when I got back to the office with all my data and sat down to go over his document I found the following. He laid the document out in detail from start to finish. There was extreme detail about everything as I had put in my suggestions I presented to him. He took most everything I suggested for full service less only a few things like bi-weekly edging instead of weekly, less the January fert app, ect. But he also added some things to weekly and bi-weekly service that I suggested be done as needed. I'm guessing these are things he thought were particularly good ideas?

The only bad thing is that I kind of feel like a fish out of water on this one now! I am out of my normal realm on one of the properties. Some things like leaves are in the document as a numbered visit service. I always have that part as an open ended extra service not included in the contract. I also charge regularly for "as needed" services and only actually do them when needed. I do this to cover my backside on new properties when I'm not sure just how often an "as needed" service will need to be done. This way I break even if it's often and I make a little if it's rare. Or I do not include the "as needed services" and bill for them separately as the need doing and I do them. This is one thing I do to lower my overall bid at times.

Also he has requested that I include and supply materials in the contract. That is not a normal practice for me either. I don't include materials and supplies in annual contracts because it drives up the contract price. Plus the prices for materials and supplies fluctuate over time. I don't like eating the increases. So I bill them separately as extras.

I Know maybe I shouldn't worry so much because I'm getting the full service 12 month deal here. But have a lot of time invested here and I'd hate to turn off someone who's sold on the annual full service with what they might think is a staggering price. Sometimes it takes a lower bid to get them, then the add-ons for the rest. Once they have the service 1 year it's much easier to see the value.

Now I'm not so sure rather this deal is dream or a nightmare....

(I'll come back later for help. My fingers are tired)

[MOW ED]

Obviously this could hurt you or help you in big ways. The visability of the properties by the general public is great so your presence and work will be advertising for you.
I don't know what to tell you as far as the detailed contract except that it may seem like its out of your comfort zone but truthfully, anything is possible. If there are problems because you werent sure of the property boarders then you have a reason to talk to the guy and explain that your initial impression of the property was different than described.
You have to cover your expenses and I guess that is where you have to put the pencil to the paper and see if you will be profitable with the properties. Like you said after a year of service they will see the real value. Its up to you to really shine on this one. Just remember all the people that are going to walk into and drive by those banks. That exposure is great especially if you are taking some rough properties and making them look great. I wish you luck.

[HOMER]

If you under estimated one and over estimated the other then shouldn't it work out in the long run?

Sounds like you have an opportunity to really promote your services and make a statement about your quality of work. I wouldn't pass on it so quickly. It always seems that if your doing a business like that then there are one or two more that work inside that are using the same guy...........could lead to more profitable work.

Have you priced it yet?

Can't beat a 12 month contract even if it's close to your usual and customary pricing.

Why fert in Jan.?

[Richard Martin]

It sounds to me like the problem you have with this deal is an inability to add on extras as you go.

They want to know exactly how much it is going to cost them.

It would be impossible for them to set an accurate budget if they don't know what the service contract will cost if you can add to it later. If you knew anything about corporate types you would know that they hate not knowing what something will cost.

You are fortunate enough to have someone (the manager) who is noticing what you have missed in your bid and is pointing it out. These specifics would no doubt have been included in the contract.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by MOW ED
Obviously this could hurt you or help you in big ways. The visability of the properties by the general public is great so your presence and work will be advertising for you.
I don't know what to tell you as far as the detailed contract except that it may seem like its out of your comfort zone but truthfully, anything is possible. If there are problems because you werent sure of the property boarders then you have a reason to talk to the guy and explain that your initial impression of the property was different than described.
You have to cover your expenses and I guess that is where you have to put the pencil to the paper and see if you will be profitable with the properties. Like you said after a year of service they will see the real value. Its up to you to really shine on this one. Just remember all the people that are going to walk into and drive by those banks. That exposure is great especially if you are taking some rough properties and making them look great. I wish you luck.

Yes, visibility and high quality immaculate work is my method of advertising. That's how I got the "invitation" to bid these properties in the first place. That's how it has been for me since I got my first account in a high traffic area. I went after that particular account at that time because I knew my work would stand out from the crowd and speak for itself. I haven't had to ask opportunities to bid since. They seek me out.

[darryl gesner]

Sounds like a nightmare to me. You're already finding surprises and haven't even got the job yet. No offense, but if you think you're in over your head, you probably are.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by HOMER
If you under estimated one and over estimated the other then shouldn't it work out in the long run?

Sounds like you have an opportunity to really promote your services and make a statement about your quality of work. I wouldn't pass on it so quickly. It always seems that if your doing a business like that then there are one or two more that work inside that are using the same guy...........could lead to more profitable work.

Have you priced it yet?

Can't beat a 12 month contract even if it's close to your usual and customary pricing.

Why fert in Jan.?

No I haven't priced the job yet.

On the first account I under estimated the amount of landscaping and over estimated the amount of turf. I gave both properties the quick once over to check the general condition and make suggestions for what I thought should be included in an annual contract to bring them up to my standards. So I was paying more attention to condition than volume really. But I did draw false conclusions. That's why I always measure before pricing.

I can't see how some folks just shoot from the hip on pricing and come out. But I guess I'm no good at that because I have always measured everything right down to the last sq ft, eliminating the need for guesstimating. I guess I'd be better at it if I did it that way and really bit it a few times.

I have no intentions of passing on the work. Quite the contrary. I want to do everything in my power to get these 2 accounts. I have too much invested in consulting the guy not to get the work. In addition, I actually have more pressure on me now to make sure I do land them.

This banker recommended me to another area banker who is also in charge of 2 banks for another local chain. He called out of the blue today. I'm scheduled to meet with him and take measurements for those two bids on Monday. One of his locations is very high profile. The building is the most modern comeporary designed buliding in the area. It looks like a mini sky-scraper which is very high profile for this hick town.
:D

I don't mind the 12 month contract at all. In this case I welcome it very much becuase it breaks the price up more and will take more of the bite out of the bid. It's out of my comfort zone for other reasons.

I do the January fert because it's part of my annual fert schedule. Ideally for healthy, dense fescue turf, I apply ferts in March, September, November and January. I think of the March app as the last chance time to make an app before the grass gets active and the temps increase slowly to the summer heat. Then I refrain from Nitrogen ferts until it begins to cool down in September. The September app I think of as a make up and recovery app. The November app is the winterizer and the most important app of the season. The January app I think of as a dormant root feeding. Even though the turf may not be acitively growing, the root system is still active. So the January app is important for root support and health. But it is less important that the November app for that.

So in my opinion, if an app were going to be skipped, I would normally rather it be the January one than any of the others. To me, my last chance, recovery and winterizer apps are more important.

I hope you understood my babbling and I hope that answers you question sufficiently.

[o-so-n-so]

He said "I've seen and like your work.

I'm not sure the bank can afford your services.

Type up your professional opinions & suggestions about what needs to be done for annual service to put both places in perfect condition

Your good, and he knows it. Hope he don't take your professional opinions and suggestions to the low baller for a reference on what to do to get his BANKS ($$$$) in perfect condition at the low ball price.

[brucec32]

You do realize he's going to take your specifications and measurements and call other guys to beat your price, don't you? This of course happens in lots of trades.

Alarm bells would go off if someone called me up and wanted such a high degree of specifications for two measley banks. Just doesn't seem typical to me. There's the "$300 a month for your property" type quotes that are too sparse, but I'm getting the impression he's wanting to nail down every tiny detail in advance, and is more than willing to nail you for every little thing that comes up and making you eat the expense. The problem with trying to bid in for contingencies is that it makes your bid higher, which means you will probably be underbid by someone inexperienced who forgets these items and comes in with a lower bid, but will take the hit later.

Your system of considering these things as extras to be paid for as needed is a wise one, I think.

All these meetings and work for 1.3 acres....it's not like it's the Pentagon contract.

[mowngrow]

sounds like a dream come true to me. if you over estimated on one and under estimated the other prop. then as long as you get them both it will work out just fine. as far as the price increases, i would pre-pay my mulch in bulk, that way if the prices do go up in say six months you still get it for what you paid six months ago.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by Richard Martin
It sounds to me like the problem you have with this deal is an inability to add on extras as you go.

They want to know exactly how much it is going to cost them.

It would be impossible for them to set an accurate budget if they don't know what the service contract will cost if you can add to it later. If you knew anything about corporate types you would know that they hate not knowing what something will cost.

You are fortunate enough to have someone (the manager) who is noticing what you have missed in your bid and is pointing it out. These specifics would no doubt have been included in the contract.

Richard, I know exactly where you are coming from and believe me I understand you point and I also understand things from the corporate point of view. I am a corporate type myself.

They want to know exactly what it's going to cost them. But so do I as well. I don't have a problem with not getting add-ons. I just like to price them as extras at the time of service and charge accordingly. By waiting I can know exactly what my cost is going to be for materials, supplies and delivery. This saves me from eating a price increase, extra materials needed, ect.

That's the only benefit in it for me. On this job the extras are going to be added on either way. Billing these things as extras will actually save the customer money if there is no price increase or if there is no need for additional materials/supplies.

If I have to price them in advance in a closed end contract, I have to add some % to the current costs plus I have to add a % for potential shortages in my numbers or unexpected extra supplies/material needed. I especially have to do this with it being my first year on the account. Everyone should cover there "you know what" in these situations, because if it can possible bite you there, you can bet it will.

A good example here is, he wants the soil test. How am I to project the cost and amounts of ferts, lime and other nutrients without first testing to see what it needs, buying the needed amount and types of nutrients? Plus I have to guess how long it's going to take to apply!

Now to the other part. He is not pointing out things I missed in my bid. I haven't submitted one yet. He asked for my opinion on what should be done for annual maintenance. I peeked at the sites and typed up my suggestions for a full service annual maintenance schedule. I included everything that would be needed to bring the properties up to my standards and all the services need to maintain appearances.

Simply put, when he put together his list of what he wanted from those suggestions, he included all the extras as standard service and added most of the "as-needed" services to the weekly and bi-weekly schedule.

Examples are... flower bed services (ferts, weeding, insect & disease control, snipping ect) is weekly, spraying expansion joints in sidewalks & curbs added bi-weekly...get the idea?

I think the best thing might be to discuss the situation with with him. The ideal thing would be to lock in most of the stuff in the contract. Then add charges for estimated costs and of course itemize a dollar figure or volume for each estimated expense that is covered within the contract. Then that would leave the contract open ended for billing additional unforeseen expenses/price increases/additional materials.

The additional could be placed on an itemized bill and brought to the table for approval during our monthly meeting prior to the uncovered expense/service. Of couse this wouldn't work perfectly in all instances because some things will come up unexpected during a particular task. But I do think it's a suitable alternative worth discussing whith him.

Don't you all think so too?

Now on to the next reply....
:waving:

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by o-so-n-so
Your good, and he knows it. Hope he don't take your professional opinions and suggestions to the low baller for a reference on what to do to get his BANKS ($$$$) in perfect condition at the low ball price. [/B]

I certainly hope he doesn't do that too. I hope he realizes from past experience that having sub-standard service, rather it be a result of a scrub or a result of being to tight to pay for the needed services is penny wise and dollar foolish. Either way things cost money. Pay more now or pay even more later.

This guy has went to great lenghts to attain my opinion and shows a genuine interest in getting things done correctly. Let's just hope his motives are honest and I'm the one who ends up getting paid to get things done! Hopefully he is aknowledging that he realizes it's not going to be cheap.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by brucec32
You do realize he's going to take your specifications and measurements and call other guys to beat your price, don't you? This of course happens in lots of trades.

Alarm bells would go off if someone called me up and wanted such a high degree of specifications for two measley banks. Just doesn't seem typical to me. There's the "$300 a month for your property" type quotes that are too sparse, but I'm getting the impression he's wanting to nail down every tiny detail in advance, and is more than willing to nail you for every little thing that comes up and making you eat the expense. The problem with trying to bid in for contingencies is that it makes your bid higher, which means you will probably be underbid by someone inexperienced who forgets these items and comes in with a lower bid, but will take the hit later.

Your system of considering these things as extras to be paid for as needed is a wise one, I think.

All these meetings and work for 1.3 acres....it's not like it's the Pentagon contract.

He may well have intentions of letting it go to a lower bidder. There is also the possibility that he could be a tire kicker. This is why I suggested the meeting part to begin with. I always try to set an initial meeting with folks like that. The meeting eats into their time some, so they are in turn giving something in exchange for me coming out.

With corporate types, often times if they are tire kickers, they will attempt to weasel out of a meeting. If they do that I don't schedule to come out and will not until they agree to meet with me.

In my opinion, if they won't take the time to schedule a meeting during the prime of their day, that lets me know one of four things are most likely the case...

#1- They are a Tire Kicker
#2- They place more value on their time than mine
#3- They place no value on my time spent accessing the property
#4 - They have other things that they regard as more important on their minds, so they do not yet have a sufficient genuine interest in acquiring my services that warrants me taking time to come out.

He set the meeting, I asked what he wanted included and he in turn asked for my opinion, I gave that in return for his time and requested that he do something else, contact me back and set another meeting in return for my suggestions. He made his selections and took time to type up a document, called me, set another meeting and now I intend to submit a proposal in return for that.

I do believe you are right about him trying to nail down the cost for every little detail because he doesn't want to have any surprises down the road.

I know all these meetings seem like a bit much in writing. But it's not as bad as it seems. The time spend measuring the properties in detail and accounting for every little thing, them hitting the office for number crunching was far worse than the details that went on prior to that.

This is actually 2 separate locations with each being a total of 1.3 acres of total area each.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by mowngrow
sounds like a dream come true to me. if you over estimated on one and under estimated the other prop. then as long as you get them both it will work out just fine. as far as the price increases, i would pre-pay my mulch in bulk, that way if the prices do go up in say six months you still get it for what you paid six months ago.

I'm doing OK with things so far because I have not submitted anything or made any sort of reference as to what I might propose in the money department.

The pre-pay for the mulch is a good idea that would help out some. I'll check with my suppliers tos ee if I can work something like that out.

Thanks

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by darryl gesner
Sounds like a nightmare to me. You're already finding surprises and haven't even got the job yet. No offense, but if you think you're in over your head, you probably are.

How can I be in over my head when I'm not even in yet?

It's not like these are huge properties I can't handle or anything. In fact, the total area of each single location is at or below my average size turf area.

One of the locations does have bit more than my average amount of landscaping. I generally have properties that are accented with landscaping, not eat up with it. But I still felt it was acceptable because it's by no means a huge amount by some standards. Plus most of it is easily accessible for mulch applications. That's the part that wears me down and I never take anything I feel i'd have a lot of trouble completing in one day or over the weekend if necessary.

The edging is hefty too at both locations. But since it's going to be a bi-weekly service, I'll try to divide as closely as possible into two separate portions that won't be visibly miss matched or simply do both locations on the same day of the week and edge one during one week and the other the next since if memory serves, the edging is fairly equal at both locations.

My primary concern with this situation is figuring out things like that to work to my advantage, and not over bidding give the circumstances. But over bidding would be better than going in the hole on it.

[darryl gesner]

Sorry, maybe I didn't read your original post carefully enough, but you sounded like it was out of your comfort zone. I guess it was just the bidding part and that's why you're asking advise.

[Jusmowin]

Envy, you can do it ! This is what I would do, walk the propertys over one more time (ASAP) take a video cam with you and tape both propertys. I would then go home and watch it over a few times and then think about prcing it out ! Also if you do get these propertys the tape would make for a great before and after shots for a web site, flyer, portfoleo or what ever! I know this might sound strange, But It has worked for me on a few HARD TO BID yards.

PS, you might want to call the manager of the bank and let him know you might be video taping the properties, so he doesnt think there is some weirdo scoping out his banks.

Just my 2 cents worth:D

[Randy Scott]

Maybe things are different in your area, but this is how the industry works. Commercial properties need a total dollar amount for their budgets. It's just that simple. If you don't want to, or are not comfortable, or don't know how to do this accurately, you may very well be passed over. You seem persisitant on wanting to price as you go for add ons. I understand soil conditioning may be very different at your location and therefore my thoughts on that may not apply. In my part of our state, you really never have any soil variation and can give fert bids accurately without any changes. In your case, I would make a clause in your contract that states any wide variation in soil tests may need an additional cost to bring to specs, something to that effect. Also, give them numbers where it may be, high and low.

On any other work, I don't understand how you can't bid accurately. This is what we all do, maintenance work, landscape work. I don't want to talk down to you, but this is what we do. You need to know these costs when preparing bids for people. Companies just don't want open end bids. If you are uncomfortable with this type of bidding, you will most likely have to adjust for it or not bid it. It didn't take me long to learn this fact, and as scary as it is preparing a bid at times for upwards of $70,000 on some sites, has to be done and you have to give final numbers. That's all that's too it. There is no easy way around this except knowing the industry and knowing your business.

I would say to prepare the bid the way they requested. If you have any clue as to bidding work in this industry, you should easily come close to being accurate, and any variation or items missed should be easily "eaten" so to speak. Not that one wants to lose money on work, but like I said, if you know the industry, you should be close and will be o.k. Have confidence in yourself. Maybe you will take it in the shorts on a couple items, but you can adjust on next years bid, and also this may propel you into more visibility and more work.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Randy,

As I mentioned before, I understand tht the want to know what it's going to cost right down to the penny. But the way I see it is this....either I can quote a price with an inflated rate to cover potential variables or I can estimate everything and submit a proposal that includes a clause as you say. This would be an itemized proposal that covers both volume and price. x amout for $x is included, anyhting else is extra.

I have had time to sleep on this a bit and think things through. I think he and I need to sit down and clear the air on some issues. I've went ove the document he typed up and wrote down some questions I need answered. Once that's done, I think things will be fine.

Now here is an example of just one thing that makes this hard to bid correctly. He wants the mulch beds mulched twice per year and maintained at approximately 3" deep. then it sys mulch over one year old should be removed to prevent mulch build up.

Now how am I to take that? Do I remove old mulch form 20,000 sq ft of beds, install new mulch, then the second time top dress? Or does that mean remove some old mulch as needed to avoid mulch build up and allow for top dressing? WHAT???

I mean there is a lot of difference there in the amount of labor, hauling, material and cost between the two. Also, either way you are also faced with the variable of how fast the mulch actually decomposes and just how much build up might need removing.I mean how is it that you comforably approach bidding something like that correctly???

I'll tell ya what I think. He tried t take my suggestions and type something up that looks good. But to me it only looks like he don't know jack!!!

[Randy Scott]

I would say meeting with him would be the best and then you can air things out. Personally, removing mulch is idiotic. It breaks down and makes good organic material for the beds and plants. As fast as it breaks down it shouldn't need to be removed. Also, removing it like you said will not be cost effective. Just meet with him and go over things, give him your professional opinion on some things and explain procedures. Sounds like this account may be a pain in the butt eventually. When the customer starts acting like they know all the detailed procedures and, in a sense, belittles you by acting so, it's time to walk. I understand some people are knowledgeable about the green industry, but there are times I've received a vibe that only what THEY say is the right way. I personally don't like that working relationship. Everytime there is discussion about something they have to have the last word or try to insist what they are saying is what I should believe. I don't care for that or those people.

I guess meet with the guy one time and see what happens. You may be worrying and spending too much time figuring this deal out that in the long run may not happen anyways. Good luck with it.