What books do u recommend? Fertilizer.

[basic lawn]

What books or websites to you guys recommend for learning about fertilizer and pesticides? What books did you use to get your licence on pest or fert application?

Basic in NJ

[Island Lawn]

I reccomend multiple thorough reading of the labels of all the fert and pesticides you will be using. Take notes if it helps. You gotta know your product.


As far as the license goes, most (if not all) states sell study manuals.


Good Luck!

[barefoot lawns]

Try the book "Controlling Turfgrass Pests" by Thomas W. Fermanian and others. Has a lot of information and is good reading. Available thru Amazon.com.

[Ric]

"Western Fertilizer Handbook" By the California Fertilizer Association. This can be heavy reading but very informative.


Below is a Copy & paste from my website. It is COPYRIGHTED Copyright (C) 2001 by Ric all rights reserved. There are 17 elements essential to plant growth. They include Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon and the 13 listed below. Now for the $ 0.05 question which element did I not list and Why??





Nitrogen, N, causes cell elongation and division (growth). It is important for the development of all tissue in a plant, but it is most important for leaf growth Nitrogen fully translocates systemically within the plant and leaches readily from the soil. Pound for pound it is one of the cheapest fertilizer chemicals to produce and shows the greatest response (green) in plants. For this reason fertilizer manufacturers overuse this product.

Nitrogen Deficiencies, cause reduced growth rate of the entire plant, then loss of color on the older leaves. Then older leaves turn yellow and a general decline occurs on the entire plant.

Phosphorus, P, is important in root development, flowering, fruiting, and germination. Phosphorus fully translocates systemically within the plant and is subject to leaching in the soil depending on its form. The Jacksonville area of Florida. has a problem with phosphorus contamination. Our area is rich in phosphorus and it has been mined here since the 1890s to the present. Most fertilizer blends sold in our area are low in phosphorus. The need for high phosphorus blend fertilizer is new sod, sod plugs, gardenias, and bird of paradise plants.

Phosphorus Deficiencies, cause purpling of lower leaves first, then move on up the plant and reduce flower production.

Potassium, K, develops vascular flow, which is important for flowering, stem strength, vigor, disease resistance and overall hardiness. Its most important contribution is root development for drought stress resistance. Potassium fully translocates systemically in the plant. Potassium leaches readily from the soil. I personally like to use potassium on a one to one ratio with nitrogen even though it is a more expensive fertilizer.

Potassium Deficiencies, first cause yellowing between veins of older leaves, then yellow specks in the veins. Leaves finally turn brown on the outside margin.

Secondary Elements

Macro Elements

Calcium, Ca, is essential for plant strength. Calcium does not translocate within a plant, nor does it leach from the soil. Luckily our soil has more than its share of calcium. Calcium nitrite is the cure for weak flushes of growth and fruit rotting at blossom end. It helps high traffic area turf.

Calcium Deficiencies, cause weak stem growth or growth of soft leaves.

Sulfur, S. functions with nitrogen to produce growth and photosynthesis. Sulfur compounds helps to reduce pH. Acid forming fertilizers are important in our area and use sulfur or sulfur combined material. The label on fertilizer will state whether sulfur is free or combined. Sulfur does not translocate in the plant but does leach out of the soil.

Sulfur Deficiencies, first cause yellowing on new growth then the entire plants slows its growth. Finally the plant goes into decline. If you have ever put fertilizer on turf and had areas grow but turn yellow, you have seen what a sulfur deficiency can do. Sometimes if we leave these areas alone they green up. The reason is that nitrogen breaks down in the soil first and is in useable form before sulfur.

Magnesium, Mg. Commonly available as Epson's salt is more important in maintaining green on older leaves but also helps new tissue. It helps in photosynthesis and helps to green up plants. Magnesium is mobile in the plant or translocates. It also readily leaches from the soil I have personally found it to make strawberries sweeter but cannot prove that.

Magnesium Deficiencies, cause older leaves to show yellowing between the veins. It looks like yellow triangles if you step back. On palm trees older fronds will yellow or brown early. Palm trees that have long ground sweeping green fronds do not have Magnesium or Manganese deficiencies.

Micro Elements

Iron, Fe. Plays a major role in photosynthesis and helps keep our plants green. Iron does not translocate in the plant. Iron will become soil bound in high pH soils and unavailable to the plant. Iron does not leach from the soil.

Iron Deficiencies, first signs are lack of dark green color on new leaves. Lack of iron causes yellowing between veins of the newest leaves first, and the green veins appear narrow. Soils with pH of 6.5 or higher lock up iron and it is unavailable to the plant.

Manganese, Mn. is used in photosynthesis and helps to keep our plants green. It is essential for new tissue development. It does not translocate in the plant and is stable in the soil. It does not leach.

Manganese Deficiencies, also cause yellowing between the veins of new leafs. Veins appear wider than iron deficiencies. On palm trees frizzle top or yellowing on new fronds is the result of Manganese deficiencies.

Boron, B, is essential to development of new tissues. It does not translocate in the plant. and does not readily leach from the soil.

Boron Deficiencies, cause interveinal or tip and marginal yellowing on new leaves as well as distorted and brittle, small leathery leaves.

Copper, Cu. is essential to development of new tissues. It does not translocate in the plant and it does not readily leach from the soil.

Copper Deficiencies, cause young leaves to become cupped, wrinkled or roughened. New leaves yellow overall or between veins and tip burn can be present. New twigs die back.

Zinc, Zn. is essential to development of new tissue. It does not trans-locate in the plant and it does not readily leach from the soil. Yes, this is word for word the same as B Cu and Mo.

Zinc Deficiencies, cause yellowing between veins on newest leaves first. New growth is tiny pointed narrow leaves.

Molybdenum, Mo. is essential for development of new tissue. It does not translocate in the plant and it does not readily leach from the soil.

Molybdenum Deficiencies, lead to distorted new leaves and stems. B., Cu., Zn., and Mo. all show the same or similar signs of deficiencies. These elements are generally sold as a minor element package, either liquid, water soluble power or granular. It is not important to know which element is deficient. Only to, treat the signs with minor elements.

Chlorine Cl. has only recently been found to be essential for plant life. Its primary function and how it works is not known. So we do not know what the signs of a deficiency are. Chlorine is a byproduct of the chemical manufacturing of fertilizer. Too much chlorine can poison the soil and burn plants. If you ever spill swimming pool chlorine on your yard you will see this for yourself. If you do not treat this with gypsum it might be a long time before you have grass. The lower the percent of chlorine in a bag of fertilizer, the better.



Fertilizer Terms:

Translocate, Refers to the plants ability to move elements or chemicals from one spot to another. This is an important concept in both fertilizer and pesticides.

Fertilizer Blends, Certain ratios of elements have been found to respond better on different plants. The top 3 numbers on a bag of fertilizer stand for Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium. N-P-K These numbers are the percentage of elements in the blend. Popular ratios are 4-1-2, 3-1-2, 3-1-3, 4-5-5, 1-1-1, and 1-0-1.

Acid forming Fertilizers, are blends which use sulfate formed compounds. As they break down in the soil, they form acid. Nitrogen source would be Ammonium Sulfate instead of Urea.

Complete Fertilizers, have most of the marco and micro elements included in their blend.

Balanced Fertilizers, have both Nitrogen and Potassium in equal parts. 1-0-1

Straight Fertilizers, have equal parts of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium. 1-1-1

Slow Release Fertilizer, There are two ways to cause granular to slow release. First is chemically form the compound in long chain bonds that take longer to break down into usable form. The second is to coat the each individual grain of fertilizer; this coating must wash away before the fertilizer is released.

[Ric]

basic lawn



See integrated pest management Thread for list of other books on pest and grass.

[Ric]

4 days and over a hundred views and no body has answered my $ 0.05 question.

Which element did I leave out and Why??

[BB36]

How about H2O?

[Ric]

Originally posted by Ric
There are 17 elements essential to plant growth. They include Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon and the 13 listed below. Now for the $ 0.05 question which element did I not list and Why??



BB36

With out Water nothing (Nada) would live. Water is a compound of two elements Hydrogen and Oxygen and is like all of the elements we add to the soil for our plants, Compound forms of these elements.

A big hint might be that this is a $ 0.05 question. The first person who can answer the element and the reason I did not list it I will spend $0.37 on a stamp to mail them $0.05. I am the last of the big time spenders.:D

[Russ]

Ain't got that book. But I didn't see Cobalt in your list. Didnt see Vanadium either. I'm going guess the answer is Cobalt because it is essential in nitrogen fixation. While concentrations in plants vary from .02 to 05 ppm some guys say it's inclusion as a essential nutrient is debatable, is that just a smidg. Now if ya want to debate let's talk about Vanadium. Does anything higher than Algae need it? By the way since B-12 is essential in folks, and cobalt is something ya just gotta have for B-12, does that suggest yet another link some guy needs to explore? Do I get my nickle? Hope so, I want that book.

[Ric]

Darn Russ

Now you got me looking in the books. No Cobalt or Vanadium are not on my list or in my books. I will be buying the book you listed today. I am taking an advanced fertilizer course on Thursday night. However this week is Spring Break. But next Thursday Dr. Lee will heard about this one. Big Big hint why am I offering $ 0.05

[Russ]

I really need that .05. Could you be refering to Nickle. Cause if I've heard right some folks think it is used with the urease enzyme to break down urea into ammonium and carbon dioxide preventing toxic levels of urea to accumulate in legumes. In grains I think it has been shown to be esential for certain enzymes which are involved grain filling and seed vialiblilty. Man you sure do make a guy work for a .05.

[Ric]

Congragulation Russ


That big big hint really worked. However Why didn't I include it in my element list and why don't commercial fertilizer companies offer it.

Re read the rules I can't send you a penny for your answer at this point it is a two part question

[Ric]

Russ

You won the nickel. The reason I didn't list Nickel is because it is still not certain what its use by plant is. It is still more of a research issue and amount used by plants is so small that supplement is not needed. Therefore commercial fertilizer companies will more than likely never offer it. Nickel is the newest fertilizer element being discovered in 1989 as a element of nutrition. I have had respect for your posts in the past and give you credit for coming forward on this one. Nickel is a little known element and at the time I wrote about fertilizer (Copy& paste above) I didn't know about it. However in another forum a member said there were 17 elements needed by plants I posted he won the nickel and I think he and I were the only ones to know.

[Russ]

You hold on to my Nickel. I'm coming down to get that nickel in a couple of years. I really thought the reason you were looking for in the app. cos. not using it was the heavy metal liability. PM me if you would on the other site.

[basic lawn]

I just found a book that covers some of the chemistry, including the essential elements, at least briefly...you could not tell by the title.

The title is "Picture Perfect" by Mellor. The author was the guy in charge of making all those neat lines in fenway Park.

thank you for your kind responses.

And here is my trivia question

what is %WIN in a fertilizer label?

[Russ]

%WIN= the amount of Water Insoluble Nitrogen

I dont know much about it but these guys do

http://www.agronomy.psu.edu/Extension/Turf/MaintFert.html

[basic lawn]

Correct, Win is H2O insoluble Nitrogen.
Win are generally slow release nitrogen, as opposed to the salts that are quick release nitrogen.

basic lawn

[timturf]

what is csrn?
what is hwin?
Give a n source for each.

[Ric]

Tim

You have me. CNR =Critical Nuttrient Range or Carbon Nitrogen Ratio. CRF Controlled Release Fertilizer.

CSRN= Controlled Slow Release Nitrogen?? Urea Formaldehyde as form of nitrogen?? but I am Guessing.

HWIN ?? I am still thinking on. Oops Hot Water Insoluble Nitrogen. I am used to seeing CWIN = Cold Water Insoluble Nitrogen. U or UF is the Nitrogen form

[timturf]

RIC,

Was hoping you where off line cause I knew you have the answer!!

CSRN is controlled slow release nitrogen . EXAMPLE IS ?? somebody besides RIC

HWIN is hot water insoluble nitrogen example was uf, or nitroform (urea formaldehyde)sp.?

Now how long for HWIN in uf to release and the mechanism for releasing? Keep quite for awhile RIC.

[basic lawn]

Mechanism: maybe microorganism action?

[timturf]

yes, microrganism break down uf, but how long to break down HWIN? 1 week? 1 month? 3 months? or how long

[timturf]

Isn't somebody going to answer?

[Ric]

TimTurf

You banned me :D I am not allowed to answer. :D Hey people we with never get to Chlorine If we can't get pasted Nitrogen. This Is a good thread and I am learning from it. With proper fertilization you have the plant battle 75% won. The other 25% is triming and pesticides. These are hard question and no one is an expert. So take chance and guess I did. I am sure Tim has forgot more about bent grass than I will ever know.

[mark2]

A long time. Depends on the temp. warm soil temp. helps break down faster. It last as long as there's product left for the microbes to eat. I would have to say that a high cec would break it down faster as well. UF is the fastest way to make good top soil in the world!! What do you think of that. I can't remember all that stuff about the expensive ferts but that's about as good of answer as I can think of for now.
Now I read back to see If I had answered properly and I noticed you said "mechanism" I can't remember the slide shows that well but I think it has something to do with sugars and conversions?

[timturf]

I was looking for how it breaks down.
answer is soil microorganism
Yes mark2, a long time and the key is soil temp.

Help, We need a better answer than a long time!

Now ric, does the cec play a role? My first impression would be to say no, but maybe, because a higher cec would indicate more om, would should indicate more microorganism. NOW RIC, don't answer how long it will take!

[Russ]

Let's see. First let's put fert in 4 basic groups 1,synthetic inorganics 2,natural organics, 3,synthetic organics and 4, coated products. Now lets look at the most complex group #3 the synthetic organics and split it into 2 groups, water-soluble & water-insoluble. We use 2 types of water soluable synthetic organic nitrogen carriers, urea and calcium cyanamide. The water insoluble synthetic organic nitrogen group is primarily composed of ureaformaldehydes(UF) and methylene ureas(MU). These two carriers are react products of urea, and its availability to the plant is measured by 3 distinct fractions based on solubility. One fraction is known as cold water soluble nitrogen (CWSN) and is immediately available to the plant. The CWSN includes unreacted urea plus some methylene ureas of low molecular weight. The second faction, cold water-insoluble nitrogen(CWIN) is less soluble than CWSN, but can still be available to the plant throughout the typical growing season. This fraction is composed of larger or heavier(molecular weight) methylene ureas that have to be microbially hydrolyzed to smaller units before they can be used by the plant. The third component of these nitrogen carriers is labeled hotwater-insoluble nitrogen(HWIN). This fraction may take years to break down into plant usable form. These carriers have similar characteristics to the natural organics including, intermediate release rate, low foliar burn potential, long residual response & high cost per unite of N. In this category N release is dependent on the activity of soil nicroorganisms, soil temps., PH, and nutrient level. Below 50d N release can be quite slow. It is important to understand the amount of CWIN in the water-insoluble groups is using them for a early spring application. And then there is IBDU. At least that is what Tom Voigt at the U of Ill had to say bout it last year. Sorry--did I try to answer the question after the answer was given?

[timturf]

Russ,
A great reply, and very informative to our members. Did this come off your head, or did you look up. Doesn't matter, a great reply!!

Calcium cyanamide, educate me!

I assume you mean below 50 degrees soil temperature the microorganism become inactive, and any win in uf is basically unavailable.

HWIN fraction in uf usually breaks down in 1 yr, but a very small amount can take years!

Tim

[Ric]

Darn Tim this is getting heavy :D Maybe Sean Adams of Lawnsite needs to start a topic called Advanced Agronomy.:D Agronomy is the science of Cultivation of land. Now this covers a wide area of knowledge, every thing from plant physiology to chemistry of soil. Chemistry of Soil is in fact the hardest science there is because there are so many variables. No two-soil samples are the same.

Now my homework assignment is “does the cec play a role?” Sure is it does, but how and why is the question. Chemistry of soil deal with many variables, each of these variables affects the other. We have already established that ureaformaldehydes (UF) is broken down by Microbial activity. So how does CEC affect Microbes?

Biota (Soil Organisms) includes plants, animals and microbes. Biota produces organic materials that enhance the weathering process and this decomposition produces organic compounds that can blind to (or chelate) cations and anions. Increased organic material in the rhizosphere or SOM decreases pH and increases CEC. This is how microbial affects CEC not how CEC affects microbial.

Now an old professor of mine use to repeatly say, “Everything is everywhere and the environment selects” An example of his statement might be Brown patch fungus. Rhizoctonia solani is the microbe that causes brown patch. Rhizoctonia solani microbes are in soil worldwide. However until we add excessive N and temperature under 90 degrees and above 60 degrees does Rhizoctonia solani start to increase in population large enough to show effect on our turf. Therefore CEC holds the compounds that are used by microbes as food. However it is AEC that holds Nitrate (NO3) the plant useable form of nitrogen.

[Ric]

FYI here is a copy & paste about soil However lets not get into it until we finish Fertilizer. I place it here only to give a little back ground for Fertilizer.


Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape. We use the soil triangle as a basic tool to understand soil. Sandy soil consists of large particles with large void spaces and water runs right through it. Clay soil has tiny particles with tiny void spaces and water is trapped by it. Loam or silt has medium sized particles with medium void spaces that both hold and drain water.


Silt allows plant root to both drink and breath. It is important to remember. The spaces between soil particles, is where roots grow. These spaces should be 50% by volume. Therefore after free drainage soil should be 50% solid particles 25% air filled void space and 25% water filled void space. The more we know about soil the better able we are to grow plants. Soil is the environment in which plants live. We do not water or fertilize our plants. We water and fertilize the environment in which they live. We must understand the relationship between all of these factors of soil. Volumes have been written about soil. I only offer a very condensed version.

The top 6 to 8 inches of the soil (rhizoshere) is where most landscape plants, from the mighty oak tree to a blade of grass, get their nutrition. The movement of air and water through this environment is important. Proper Drainage is as important as irrigation. Saturated soil does not allow air to get into the soil. Air is important to the roots of a plant as well as the beneficial aerobic microorganisms in the soil. Fertilizer, irrigation, drainage and Aeration help us manage this environment we call soil. This environment is complex and changing every minute. Spend the extra money for good topsoil on the final fill and grade if you are building a new house in Charlotte County. You will save that money many times over in water and fertilizer. Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape.

How do we judge soil? By looks, what color it is. By smell, aerobic soil has a sweet smell. Anaerobic soil has a sour or foul smell. And by feel, sandy soil will not clump in our hand or form a ball. Clay soil will clump in our hand but not break apart. Silt will clump in our hand and break apart easily. That’s Qualitative; measurement differs individual to individual (Quantitative denotes scientific measurement). We give those measurements a name and can put numbers to them. For example pH., which measures how acidic or alkaline the soil, is. In Coastal Charlotte Co. our soil is alkaline so the last thing we want to do is add lime. Instead we manage the soil chemically with acid forming fertilizers. Physical properties of soil are measured in terms like texture, structure, particle size distribution, particle shape, density, infiltration, percolation, hydraulic conductivity, and water potential etc.


Bulk density is the way we measure compaction. Compaction is why farmers plow their fields and core aeration is how we manage compaction on turf soils. Compaction of the soil closes the void spaces. Water, air, fertilizer, and roots need these void spaces for our plants to grow healthy. Chemical properties are measured in terms like cation & anion exchange, salinity, pH, redox potential, and volatilization etc. You don’t have to understand or know all of these term and reactions to have a nice yard, but the Farmer, golf course greens keeper and the nursery grower knows this science. It is this science that allows a few to feed the many.

Copyright 2001 (c) Ric All rights reserved
Copyright 2001 Global Infromation Concepts Inc All Rights Reserved

[mark2]

Just wondering if anyone actually uses uf type fert on residential customers lawns. I can see doing it to your own lawn but not to a customers.
There to expensive(initially) and after long term use you may only have to apply one uf app per year to maintain a healthy turf. Yes, it is environmentally friendly but chances are you won't have the customer long enough to see the benefits.
Perfect for Golf Course.
I hope I didn't touch a nerve, I was just curious!

[Ric]

Originally posted by mark2
anyone actually uses uf type fert..... but not to a customers.......
chances are you won't have the customer long enough to see the benefits.



Mark

If you know what you are doing and do good work. You don't have to look for customer. The customers look for you.

[timturf]

Then you can use a high quality fert like uf.

I think more applical on warm season turf, but I did use uf for dormant feed on bent greens in transition zone, and use some for my 1/3 total n for spring app!!!!!!!!

I don't believe many do, Lesco doesn't sell it!

Wonder how many knew about uf????

[Ric]

TimTurf

I believe Arbor Green paten-ed by Davey Tree and sold by Lesco under license agreement is a UF.

[timturf]

Is arbor green used on turf Ric?

Don't use much lesco, not all that familiar with their products!

[Ric]

Tim

Arbor Green is for trees, But will work on turf also. Most people will deep root Arbor Green Around Trees. It or course must be constantly mixed in the tank or it settles to the bottom right away. My area is all Calcareous Sand with a 5 CEC. With 55 inches of rain per year we really can't use it effectively. High ppm of Na in our well water also causes problems here. Water quality is a whole other area that we can discuss in the new Advanced Agronomy Forum that we need Sean to start. Hello Sean

Glad you came on board Tim.

[timturf]

surprise you have cec of 5 on sand

I agree about advance agromony form!! Hope sean gets hint, but we need to have some resrictions on it!!!

[Ric]

Tim

I am in total agreement about restrictions on it. I am sending you a private message with my toll free 800 number. We can set a time to go on Lawnsite chat room with Sean and anyone else interested in an advanced forum.

[Ric]

Oops it has been a week and no one has answered the question how long.


UF can take up to two years to break down in the soil. As stated before UF breaks down by microbial activity. Yes temperature plays a big role in microbial activity as stated before. Temperature mus be in a range for most microbes 60 to 80 degrees. In fact high temperature can cure brown patch. However so does pH play a role. Ph is one of the most important thing yet least understood. pH of 6 to 7.2 has the most microbial activity and therefore UF in soil temperature of 75 degrees and pH of 6.5 will break down faster than UF in other soils.


OK we are still on Nitrogen someone name another source of nitrogen That we can explore



x

[timturf]

I'm not done on uf

What % of uf is hwin?

What % of hwin in uf will breakdown in 1 year, and in 2 years?

607

[Ric]

Originally posted by timturf
I'm not done on uf

What % of uf is hwin?

What % of hwin in uf will breakdown in 1 year, and in 2 years?

607



UF % of CWIN= 60%

UF % of HWIN= 40%


% of UF HWIN to break down each year depends on the activity index which is only available thur the manufacture of that UF produce. Each manufacture will have a different Activity Index

UF was the first real slow release developed in the 1960. It is CWIN that is important or more important than Hwin. Cwin will start releasing in 2 to 3 month and WSN will rease in 2 to 3 weeks. HWIN can take 3 years to release 100%. SCU will take 2 year to release 100%.


Tim I hope this is the answer you are looking for. You made me go to the books. Page 142 "Western Fertilizer Handbook".


Darn Guy please help me out, Timturf has me on the ropes.:D But I am learning something

[timturf]

uf, nitroform s

activity index 40 min take 1-2 yrs for hwin to release
70% of nitrogen available in first 15 weeks

[Ric]

Timturf

1.) Two years for nitroform s to release all of the N. How Long for SCU to release all of the N??


2.) What % of SCU is released in first 6 to12 weeks.



The point I am shooting for is Economics in Agronomics.

[Russ]

From: Karl Danneberger




Phosphorus fertilization has garnered considerable press lately. In Minnesota for example phosphorus applications are banned because of levels found in surface water (whether this is due to lawn fertilization or not is irrelevant at this point). In a few other communities phosphorus can only be applied if soil test results show phosphorus to be low. On golf courses, phosphorus levels are monitored through soil test reports, however for the lawn care market this is much more difficult to do on a large geographical area.
Phosphorus is a major element that is especially critical during turf/seedling establishment. In mature stands phosphorus is critical component important in the energy (ATP) required for growth. Deficiencies show as a slowing of growth and eventually phosphorus deficient symptoms can appear (bluish color leaf blades). A proper balance between soil phosphorus levels and that needed for growth is both environmentally sound and necessary for maintaining quality turf.

Dr. Wayne Kussow at the University of Wisconsin wrote a recent article (Phosphorus fact or fiction Landscape Management 42:56-58,60,62) where he mentions 2 general hints that might help you plan your phosphorus program. The first is major nutrient analysis of leaf clippings remains rather constant for turfgrasses. The ratio of nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P2O5) and potassium (K2O) roughly falls in a 4:1:3 ratios. By using a fertilizer with an N: P2O5 ratio of 4:1 you will roughly maintain the current soil test levels of phosphorus. If you use a ratio less than 4:1 such as 2:1 or 3:1 you will contribute to the phosphorus levels in the soil. On the other hand if you use a fertilizer ratio greater than 4:1 like 8:1 or 10:1 you will slowly deplete the phosphorus in the soil. You can either build-up, maintain, or deplete phosphorus levels over time by the fertilizer you use.

In addition, from research at the University of Wisconsin, it takes roughly 1 lb. P2O5/1000 sq.ft. /year to maintain soil test levels when clippings are removed. If clippings are returned that amount drops in half to 0.5 lb. P2O5/1000 sq.ft. /year. Phosphorus levels in the soil are impacted by climate, growing season, and soil texture to name just a few. However, the 4:1 ratio and 1 lb rule for clippings removed is a good base to start designing a phosphorus fertility program.

[timturf]

Release rate would depend on thickness of coating and quality of coating, I believe. I was under the impression it would all release within 16 to 24 weeks, but I'm not a scu user, nor very informed on scu. I had too much problems in gc turf with unreliable release due to shipping and golf cart and equipment breaking pellets. I know they have improved product, but I need more education on product!

Scu is proable a good source of n for general lawn care fert applications.

Uf, would only be a good source of n for lawn care if you provide an excellent program and have little turn over!!! At 68% win, you can apply up to 10 lbs/1000, = 3.8 lbs n /1000, so using uf, you could get by with only 2 applications per season!!!!!! This makes it more economical! Since release depends on microrganism, most n release when turf is growing. Don't think it's the only source of n, but one that could fit into a program!

P2o5, is very inmobile in soil, and can be tied up in soil, so it"s unavailable to plants. I BELIEVE , even if soil is high in p2o5, you should apply .5 to 1 lbs/1000 on turf as a general rule.

Russ, think ric and I would like to discuss n sources, and after competing them , move onto another element. Lets do p2o5, after n is done.

Ric, why don't you post the order of n sources we are going to discuss?

[Ric]

Russ


In the 1880s Rock Phosphate was discovered in the Peace River here in Fla. From that day to this Phosphate is mine and shipped all over the world. Our soil is very rich with Phosphate however it is not available to our plants. Since our soil is calcareous sand with a pH of about 9.5 average it will never be available to plants. This has to do with Redox Potential or oxidation-reduction. Pe + pH = redox potential. P is the math symbol for negative log and e = electrons H = hydrogen electrons. Mining accidents have polluted our rivers and Harbors many times over and are an issue here. Run off or leaching is not as big an issue in my area.

Jacksonville Fla. Was the first place in Florida to be concerned with phosphate run off. Therefore phosphate has been taken out of fertilizer sold in that area. The rest of Florida is following suite. Starting with Northeast and moving to South East. It will move to South West Florida also. We are tech and not PhDs but as tech we have the duty not to contaminate the environment. The only way not to pollute is with knowledge and concern. Dr. Karl Danneberger PhD is a PhD and we should be concerned with his finding. 4-1-2 ratios have long been accepted as the right ratio of elements to apply to southern Turf. Dr, Danneberger research is something we should talk about. Those of us living in areas that are concerned with Phosphate pollution should be even more aware of this report. Please remember also that nitrate pollution is also an issue that has to be dealt with. Yes Russ I would like to talk more about this issue, but feel we need to start a new thread about it.

TimTurf

I think we need to start a new thread titled “N” or “Nitrogen” Advanced Agronomy. After that a new thread “P” then “K” etc. This will allow member to do a search under each element and find their answer. Yes I will start that thread as requested. I would like to start at the bottom with NO3 and work up. In the past it has been you and myself that have kept this thread alive. We need help and Russ has offered that. We need more members to joint in with the Q & A of this in order to make it a more meaningful thread. Yes we all are starting our busy season and posts will be slow. I guess that is why Tim Turf and I have not answered right away. Instead we have waited a week or so to post back so as to give other member a chance to joint in. I would like to think this is a thread that has long-term value for all member of Lawn Site. Yes it is easier to go to Lesco and ask what should I use and Lesco is a great company, however this thread might give the member the ability to know what to use and to buy it from an other company at a lower price. We have many members here that have the knowledge to add to this idea and need their support to make it work.

[Sean Adams]

I'm open to the idea..... what would you want involved? Post here or e-mail me directly and we can go over it. I think it's a great idea with genuinely helpful info from informed pros in the industry.....am I heading down the right path?

[Hamons]

Whatever happend to these threads?

Lets look at hese -- might be good Winter time discussion.

Ric -- are you up for continuing the discussion? I know that there is still a lot to talk about with Nitrogen sources, release rates, etc.

[Ric]

Hamons

I try to get an Advanced Agronomy forum here at LS. But after not having my e-mails answered by the administrator I gave up. It takes a lot of time to write these posts and they do not put any money or power in my pocket. In fact I advertised for a spray tech here and No one applied for the job. I hired a local guy and pay for his night college. He will walk away with a lot of certifications in just a few short years including Irrigation.

I am now putting my time into my own business and have even increased the size of my Nursery. Right now I am building a fog house that will do 50,000 liners a year. We are what we eat and so the same is true with Plants. Proper feeding (Fertilizer) is the key to all plant life.

Sorry but all my posting has slowed down. At present time I can't keep up with my own work. I am way behind so taking on more responsibility's is out of the question.

[dvmcmrhp52]

This is a truly informational thread. I'd like to see it bumped to the top for a while so myself and others can take advantage of it,
and perhaps continue it.
Mods/ Administration? Is this possible?

[Ric]

dvmcmrhp52

I started an other thread here at LS also about Fertilizer before this one. I again I did not get support from the administration. Another Internet forum has asked me several times to do a Classroom. Tonight I have e-mailed them with my demands. I want Copyrights to all posts in the forum. Yes I would use those post to write a book. Every time you post to a forum the forum owner has copyrights unless you state it is already copyrighted and can prove it.

Here is another thread you might learn something from

Nitrogen Thread started by Ric (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44636 )

[dvmcmrhp52]

Thanks Ric.

[timturf]

would like to see an advance agronomy form!

have sent e mails to administration, never get a reply!

how come????

[Ric]

TimTurf

Organic Forum is more Politically Correct. Who better to moderate it than a Homeowner. After all, All homeowners have a Lawn.

[dishboy]

Good thread ! Just wanted to bring this back up.

[LonniesLawns]

No more discussions like this one? How come?

[Ric]

No more discussions like this one? How come?


Lonnieslawn

I think if you read this thread you will find the answer to your question. I wish not to make further commend about my feeling on this subject. I was looking for a Quick link to post for Holistic's benefit. That is why you found it.

[LonniesLawns]

I wasn't putting any burden on you -- just noticing not as many "meaty" discussions on here as it appears there used to be.

But...unless you are gettign paid to support the pesticide side of this site -- which you basically do -- with the help of a few others now and and again, I wouldn't suggest you be the one who leads the discussion either.

However, I would also think -- that this might be the only type of discussion that really reciprocates any knowledge to you. Depends on your motrive to post -- 1) imparting your knowledge to others or 2) deepening your knowledge through useful discussion.

[Ric]

I wasn't putting any burden on you -- just noticing not as many "meaty" discussions on here as it appears there used to be.

But...unless you are gettign paid to support the pesticide side of this site -- which you basically do -- with the help of a few others now and and again, I wouldn't suggest you be the one who leads the discussion either.

However, I would also think -- that this might be the only type of discussion that really reciprocates any knowledge to you. Depends on your motrive to post -- 1) imparting your knowledge to others or 2) deepening your knowledge through useful discussion.

Lonnie

I am retired from the business I loved so much, because of health. I am in the process of trying to write several books about application. Whether I ever finish them and where and how I sell them is still up for grabs. My motavation is, both points you have pointed out.

[drobin]

I'm sorry if this is a redundant question, Anyways thank you this is excellent info guys much appreciated-Dave

[phasthound]

FYI here is a copy & paste about soil However lets not get into it until we finish Fertilizer. I place it here only to give a little back ground for Fertilizer.


Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape. We use the soil triangle as a basic tool to understand soil. Sandy soil consists of large particles with large void spaces and water runs right through it. Clay soil has tiny particles with tiny void spaces and water is trapped by it. Loam or silt has medium sized particles with medium void spaces that both hold and drain water.


Silt allows plant root to both drink and breath. It is important to remember. The spaces between soil particles, is where roots grow. These spaces should be 50% by volume. Therefore after free drainage soil should be 50% solid particles 25% air filled void space and 25% water filled void space. The more we know about soil the better able we are to grow plants. Soil is the environment in which plants live. We do not water or fertilize our plants. We water and fertilize the environment in which they live. We must understand the relationship between all of these factors of soil. Volumes have been written about soil. I only offer a very condensed version.

The top 6 to 8 inches of the soil (rhizoshere) is where most landscape plants, from the mighty oak tree to a blade of grass, get their nutrition. The movement of air and water through this environment is important. Proper Drainage is as important as irrigation. Saturated soil does not allow air to get into the soil. Air is important to the roots of a plant as well as the beneficial aerobic microorganisms in the soil. Fertilizer, irrigation, drainage and Aeration help us manage this environment we call soil. This environment is complex and changing every minute. Spend the extra money for good topsoil on the final fill and grade if you are building a new house in Charlotte County. You will save that money many times over in water and fertilizer. Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape.

How do we judge soil? By looks, what color it is. By smell, aerobic soil has a sweet smell. Anaerobic soil has a sour or foul smell. And by feel, sandy soil will not clump in our hand or form a ball. Clay soil will clump in our hand but not break apart. Silt will clump in our hand and break apart easily. That’s Qualitative; measurement differs individual to individual (Quantitative denotes scientific measurement). We give those measurements a name and can put numbers to them. For example pH., which measures how acidic or alkaline the soil, is. In Coastal Charlotte Co. our soil is alkaline so the last thing we want to do is add lime. Instead we manage the soil chemically with acid forming fertilizers. Physical properties of soil are measured in terms like texture, structure, particle size distribution, particle shape, density, infiltration, percolation, hydraulic conductivity, and water potential etc.


Bulk density is the way we measure compaction. Compaction is why farmers plow their fields and core aeration is how we manage compaction on turf soils. Compaction of the soil closes the void spaces. Water, air, fertilizer, and roots need these void spaces for our plants to grow healthy. Chemical properties are measured in terms like cation & anion exchange, salinity, pH, redox potential, and volatilization etc. You don’t have to understand or know all of these term and reactions to have a nice yard, but the Farmer, golf course greens keeper and the nursery grower knows this science. It is this science that allows a few to feed the many.

Copyright 2001 (c) Ric All rights reserved
Copyright 2001 Global Infromation Concepts Inc All Rights Reserved

Rik,

This is important info, you should talk more about the importance of soil.

[greendoctor]

Everything starts with the soil. The program I use is to get around some very bad soil conditions and produce healthy turf and ornamentals. There is no topsoil I would want to use as fill/final grade material here. What is sold as "topsoil" here is not much better than the crap it is covering up. To do it right would mean installing a drainage system and a sand/organic matter mix.

[Ric]

Question

Rik,

This is important info, you should talk more about the importance of soil.

Answer

TimTurf

Organic Forum is more Politically Correct. Who better to moderate it than a Homeowner. After all, All homeowners have a Lawn.

Slow Dog

You are slow, it is obvious you read the whole thread. But you did not understand what was written.

[Ric]

Slow Dog

You are slow, it is obvious you read the whole thread. But you did not understand what was written.

Phasthound

After sleeping on this I feel a better explanation is in order. Look at the dates of these posts. At the same time several of us were asking for an Advanced Agronomy Forum with no luck. Lawnsite Elected to go Politically Correct with a Organic Forum. While this might of been the better business move, It sure was a slap in the face to a few of us when the Advanced Agronomy Forum was never acknowledged. Since no one on this forum at that time was pushing Organics, Lawnsite brought in a Homeowner who is a retired Government Civil Engineer and had never worked in the Green Industry as the moderator of that forum. To me this was even a Bigger slap in the face. A Homeowner telling a professional what to use just didn't wash with me. I have taught at a college part time but realize I don't know it all, No one does. BTW The Homeowner Moderator appears to be gone now and I am still here.

Further More the attitude of the Orgasmic crowd turned me off even more. I believe in the value of organics but live in the 21th century of modern technology. To expect me to give up everything I know works and switch to a all Tree Hugger program just wasn't going to happen. To paraphrase a quote by former Russia leader Nikita Khrushchev. We can't expect synthetic people to turn Organic over night. But we can encourage them to use more organics until one morning they wake to find they are Tree Huggers. Of course his quote was about Capitalism, Socialism and Communism.

As I rapidly approach by 69th Birthday I realize my mind is not as sharp as it once was. I no longer have any desire or the ability to lead a discussion of advanced agronomy or soil science. My ego wants to say I have forgotten more about this industry than most people know.