Measuring a yard

[Dingo]

<br>what is the best way to measure a yard? If you use a landscapers wheel how do you use it? Are there better ways? How do you account for curves? <br>thanks for any input<br> Dingo

[thelawnguy]

Well if its for mowing I just walk it off, number of steps = number of yards, this way I can also get the feel of the terrain, trimming obstacles, what have you. <p>I only accurately measure for installations. Mowing measurements dont have to be precise.<p>YMMV<p>Bill

[MOW ED]

I just measure for fertilizing. Measure the 4 corners of the lot and measure the house, Subtract the house from the total, if you have sidewalks and driveways that bother you then subtract a standard that you know i.e. 3 ft sidewalk x 50 ft lot=-150 sqft. You dont have to get too technical after all whose spreader is 100% calibrated correctly anyway.

[lawnnut]

I use paces except on my price per pace I adjust for the fact I am not pacing 3 foot stride, or a yard. My standard pace is 7.5 sq foot not 9.<br>I have a 28&quot; inseam is all.<br>

[geogunn]

if I need to know the dimensions of a lawn I pace it. knowing your stride plus or minus the inches to make a yard in legnth is the easy and accurate enough way to measure.<p>lots of homeowners know the dimensions of their property because they measure before you get there to see if you are trying to rip them on the cost per square foot. walk off the measure right and give it to 'em straight and they are comfortable with your ability. works for me.<p>practice makes perfect. I spent about 20 years popping woodchucks at distances of up to 500 yards. after the shot you always pace it off. ahhhh...those days spent in glorious adolesence!<p>GEO

[Finecut]

Dingo,<p>Spend the 65.00 for a measuring wheel and you will find yourself money ahead. If you approach it on a professional basis from the start you won't regret having to cut someones lawn for 10% less than you should have been charging from the get go. Eyeballing a yard is deceptive and you may think your good at it but your only cheating yourself. You need to know how long it takes to mow a given area and how many square feet in that area and then you are able to develop a formula when you determine you per hour costs.

[curlawngreen]

GOOD ADVICE.

[Brad]

A question related to Dingo's post, what is an average per square foot/yard/acre, etc. that is charged? I have seen the discussion on price per hour based on cost of equipment operation and overhead, but what is a good rule of thumb for quoting? <p>Thanks to all. Appreciate the information.<p>Brad

[Retro67]

A measuring wheel is important. You can guess, but paces are really only guesses. I'd rather be able to have it nailed down precisely. The less variables involved, the better. <p>Once the mowing is figured precisely, you will be able to more accurately record and or predict performance times for other tasks. <p>Many people just eyeball. Just depends how important it is to you. Tearing a dollar bill in half and a half-dollar aren't the same thing. after spending the money, any of you would realize immediately after using it that you had made your money back just in peace of mind knowing you can more accurately predict task times. <p>I think it was finecut who said it, but yes, it is more than worth the money. Any of you old dogs not wanting to learn new tricks really should give it a thought. It took one inaccurate bid for me to quit measuring by paces. <p>Fifteen minutes or less of measuring on a small property isn't too much to invest in your future, especially if it helps you to price future work.<p>I measure linear ft of edging, sq ft of flower/bush beds and sq ft of mowing. You have to know square footage for good results and proper application of chemicals. Any pesticide certification program will tell you to measure, no matter what state you are in.&lt;p&gt;John

[cjcland]

could someone give me a list of the average price of<br>square foot mowing<br>linear feet edging/weedeating<br>thank you

[jeffclc]

While measuring is important, remember to take into account terrain, obstacles, type of grass, parking situation, location of property, gates, dog poop, debris in the yard, type of customer, ect. All these things factor into your price.<p>2 lawns can be the exact same square footage, and get the same service, mowing/trimming/bagging, but one could take twice as long to do as the other. Use your measurements as a starting point only.

[mountain man]

Jeffclc's post is correct. I feel it is critical to have a square footage especially for fertilizing. I can then budget closer how much fertilizer I must purchase as well as see if I have my spreader settings correct once I start a round.<p>I fill you must use a wheel. It gives a closer estimate on sq. footage. Plus, if the customer see you using a wheel, it shows that you are making a serious effort to give them a well though quote and service. <p>When giving quotes also look up. If you are quoting leaf removal in your maintenance, you can get crushed during leaf season. I got several accounts last year because guys quoted cheap prices for mowing but then couldn't handle the leaves.

[cjcland]

okay we all agree that square footage is great now what? #'s anyone?

[Retro67]

That is very true, terrain and general landscape must be taken into consideration for bidding. These are things you learn as you go. You'll do better some places than others. Sooner or later, you will be able to attribute that to factors you discover. Mowing a hillside or bumpy terrain would be more obvious factors that would slow you down and therefore make a property worth more than if it were flat, smooth ground.&lt;P&gt;John<br>

[mountain man]

CJCland:<br>As stated in the previous posts square footage is just a start. Alot of the quote comes from experience and learning from mistakes on what is easy and what takes lots of time. <p>An Idea if you are just starting out. Take your own or a friends yard and measure the square footage and linear footage for edging. See how long it takes to mow trim edge etc. Then multiply the time by your hourly rate ($30-40 per hour is a good starting point IMO). That at least gives you a ballpark to start from on your estimate. If you are using linear feet, remember to factor in the natural areas. Most homeowners expect you to edge these areas as well.

[Ground Effects]

I know I spare expense once in awhile (call me cheap), but my somewhat invention works and accuratly too. <br> If you don't want to spend the 60 bucks on a manufactured wheel - make your own. I made one out of a six-foot piece of 3/4&quot; pipe, an old push mower wheel, 1 drywall/wood/metal screw,and a bale counter off the back of a baler. I spent about a whopping $0.00 on it.<p> P.S. Sorry guys - I don't have any blueprints for it, but maybe Larry (jesus)can draw some up seeing how he has a good imagination :)

[cjcland]

thank you mountain man thats help me alot

[bdemir]

I hate to say it but people are reluctant or wont give out their prices . I have tried to ask before and I got about as for as you did. Best thing to do is find a friend that mows in your area and ask him. People just dont give out prices but heres my help even though i am not too experienced in the field. I think that if you break down an acre to square foot you can get your square foot price and some of these guys charge 30 to 40 per acre and thats about what i charge if i can sometimes more sometimes less it depends where you live the type of work. You can have a small job that will take 8 minutes to do but you have to charge at lest 15 per cutting then there will be a job you will have to charge 100 for 3 hours of work. When you compare the two the 15 dollar will probaly make 3 times more per sq ft than the 100 dollar job but that is just the way it is . You got your small jobs which are quickes but are fast and easy then you got your bigf jobs which are hard, long and detailed but pay alot better. So try to ask around and get ideas but dont be suprized when they wont tell you or even laugh. I found that out myself.

[Lazer]

bedmir,<br>I don't think there is a lack of helpfulness on this board, even regarding pricing. Numerous posts have stated that hourly fees should range from $30-$40 per hour.<p>As far as price per square footage goes, the variation between sites and around the country are huge. Different sites have so many different parameters that square footage prices for mowing would range greatly.<p>Range: $.70/1000 to $15/1000. <p>Perhaps 1.50/1000 + 20.00 stop fee would be reasonable for the type of accounts I service.

[PLS]

Lets look at it this way. If we tell you a price, We would have to kill you. Ahhh just kidding. price fer square foot all depends on what size mower your using and how long it takes you to mow a given area. It's dirrerent for everyone. If we give you a figure, it's not of much value to you realisticly.

[bdemir]

Sorry lazer i just ran into some peolple that laughed at me when i would ask for advice. I would ask them when they were at a gas station or driving through and they would not help me. You are right about people wanting to help. I am sorry for saying the wrong thing. I also agree with prices being differnt in every state or even city to city. You are right but i just had some bad experiences. People do help but if you go up to somenone and ask them while they are actually working on that job (like me ) then you will get laughed at i guess. Sorry, but i always help people unconditionally and sometimes im dumb enough to go up to them while they are acrually on the job and ask them for advice and i get laughed in the face. Once i asked a guy and he told me your crazy i cut 40 lawns in here. He told me he wanted to cut the lawn i was cuttign too. That affected my outlook pretty bad but then i had people help mee too. <br>I just know when not too long ago i was in his place and just wanted an idea(a price)and everone just gave me a formula. <p>I would like to say that most of my knowledge came from this site. Thank you and sorry for saying the wrong thing. Let me say that I had a few bad experinces but you should not stop asking. i learned by asking and i asked too much. Ask as much as you can and you will be answered exspecially in a helpful place like this site. Sorry for the misinformation.<br>

[accuratelawn]

You have to be kidding...a pipe with a wheels screwed to it. Professional?<br>Buy a wheel don't look like a lawn scrub!<br>As far as price, you must go out a test the market. Speak with the potentional customer. Ask questions, who serviced them in the past?, what did the other company do to lose their business?, etc. etc. You will more than likely find out prices this way. <br>If you close every lawn you bid your price is probably to low.

[HOMER]

O.K. I'm an uneducated redneck! I have never measured a yard yet. What I have done the past couple of days is work on my routes and my numbers. <p>I'll ask for any remarks anyone wants to give. Also if I have figured wrong let me know soon!<p>I took all my accounts and listed them on a sheet of paper. I then listed the amount of time, an average of course, right beside that. I have them on a 30 cut mowing plan so I multiplied 30 x .5 for the total hours a year I would be there (.5= 1/2 hr) Several of my yards varied but most can be done in .5 hrs. 30 x .5 = 15 hrs for the year. Thats what I am giving my customers and then I took the total $ amount I was charging: 100.00 x 12 = 1200.00 divided the 15hrs into it and came up with my hourly wage for each individual yard. The results were surprising to me. I found that I was actually doing better than I thought. In the above example I am making $80.00 per hour! I haven't averaged all of them up but I had several that were in the 60.00 range and a lot in the 50.00 range. A couple fell into the mid 30's which is my target anyway, but not much profit in breaking even! I will now bid all my jobs using this, maybe I just stumbled upon something everybody else already knows, either way it revealed to me that I am making a good hourly rate but thats only as long as we can keep our time down on the jobs. This has also told me what jobs I can bring in extra help on and which ones I can't based on the profit. <p>what I haven't done yet is break down the operating costs of my equipment, I think I need help on that one.<p>I know I veered off course here but measuring a yard to mow is not practical, too many variables to calculate a bid on, like MM said, look up and around at all the neighbors yards and imagine what the yard your bidding on will look like in the fall. you can't factor that into a measurement in my opinion, I think you will get stuck on a price per sq. ft. and forget about how many sticks and leaves are going to be in that sq. ft.<p>Again , I'm open to any comments, if I have figured wrong here let me have it.<p>Homer

[geogunn]

yep, what I figured is true. lots of guys running around yards with measuring wheels. I understand the need for wheel measurement accuracy for fertilizing or some of the other services but I don't advertise to do a lot of the extras. what ever works for you is the right thing to do.<p>as for me I can look at a residential/small commercial and I know what I want for the job to make money. if a 10 percent underage on what the job is actually worth makes a difference to you then you are pricing too cheap. lots of people on the forum have made comments about people that price too cheap so I wont repeat them here.<p>I have a question for the wheel users. when you wheel off a job for mowing only and shoot the homeowner a price based on your productivity/profit calculations and you send a crew over to do the job, what happens to your profit if they screw off an extra 15 minutes along the way in-between jobs?<p>IMHO there is some rocket science involved in this business but there is a larger proportion of people skills and professionalism that go into making a successful lawn care company.<p>GEO<p>

[gorrell]

This might seem off the wall, but it's never failed to work for me. When a customer asks for a quote on mowing, I'll mow it at no charge and then tell them what his cost will be. Everyone I've done this for has accepted my bid. Large commercial accounts obviously are not handled this way. I usually know the acreage and know how much I charge to mow an acre. Thanks, Lynn

[Retro67]

I'm 6'4&quot; if you'd like to know how much I charge for a yard that's 100 paces by 75 paces email me. (Don't bother, I'm making a point, here.) In my opinion, giving an estimate without a measuring wheel is like driving down the highway with your lights off guessing that you are going 55 miles per hour. &lt;p&gt;Ten percent does matter. If it is 10 percent under what I could be getting, that's 10% that could be in my pocket rather than the customer's. That ten percent could buy the measuring wheel so desperately needed by a professional.&lt;p&gt; Gorrel is the only one I have seen post that has a more accurate method (and maybe better, in some cases) other than the measuring wheel.&lt;p&gt; If you use common sense, you will realize that every 10,000 square ft yard isn't the same and you will differentiate pricing based on trimming and mowing difficulty. Lots of obstacles with alot to trim, is different than a 10,000 sf lot. You won't see that by walking it off, or with a measuring wheel. &lt;p&gt;Few, if any of the sites I mow are one rectangular square of grass. Therefore, measuring and writing down the measurements of the specific areas and adding them together is the only accurate way to determine the amount of grass to be cut. &lt;p&gt;Especially if you are beginning in the business, as the original person who posted this thread, the measuring wheel will tell you much more accurately how much mowing, edging, fertilizing, pre-emergent, etc. has to be done. A guess is a guess, a measurement , a measurement. If dingo had been doing this for two years, I'd say stick with what works. Dingo, since you have the chance, spend the money and make it back with your first measurement. &lt;p&gt;John&lt;p&gt;By the way- If I just guess how much I should charge, I'm high on price 99% of the time. Goegunn- I don't have crews, so don't know if the measuring wheel can fire the irresponsible employees you refer to. :-)<br>

[GroundKprs]

As long as I have been in business, I just cannot accurately estimate areas. I use a measuring wheel. You can measure any lot and break it up into <br>rectangles: A(area)=H(height) x W(width)<br>triangles: A=1/2 x H x W<br>circles: A=3.14 x R(radius) x R<br>& semicircles : 1/2 of circle formula.<p>While area is not an absolute difinitive in pricing, it can be very functional. By having all properties measured and logged in our planning tables, we can tell exactly how much fertilizer is needed for the next application; no need to order extra 500 lb to sit for months, or to scramble for more because we underordered. If you find a good deal for the whole year, you are ready to order all basic fert & herb at any time.<br>The time for fertilization can be estimated from other similar sized jobs.<br>Fertilizer is a salt, and absorbs moisture. If you are fertilizing on a humid day, the flow rate of product at 3:00 pm can be 10-15% (or more) less than the flow rate at 7:00 am. Especially on humid days we are calibrating on every job, in order to correct settings as humidity increases. This is not possible without knowing what areas you are treating.<p>For mowing, area is definitely not the only standard of pricing, but in time you will learn what details in a site cause time variations. Then when you are bidding a new 12K, 40K, or 2.5K site, you can take the known times on other similar sized sites as a starting figure.<p>If you are just starting out you may not want to take the time. But when you decide to stay in the business, you may want to consider the measuring. Since wheels slip on grass, you are better off with larger wheels. With slippage in mind, measure on solid surface if at all possible.<p>Probably the most obvious part of measuring is the impact on the client. It infers a degree of professionalism, no matter how much you know.<p>----------<br>Jim<br>North central Indiana<p>

[fireball]

Boy, I'm joining this thread late and there is so much to comment on. <p>Ground Effects: you missed the point of all the preaching. There are no old push mower wheels. The older it is the cheaper your investment in mowers. Secondly, why invest in a drywall screw when bubble gum from the local diner counter will work. Use bicycle wheel instead.<p>Bdemir, cjcland, lazer, pls too many to sort out who said what. I find that people who laugh at my questions are really laughing at themselves because they don't know the answer themselves and don't want you to know their ignorance. What was said is good stuff but us old guys that have been doing this a long time realize that if we tell you a price it will be wrong for you. IMHO when you use other people's numbers you will fail or at least be stuck with their dismal performance. You have to do your homework on what your REAL COSTS are. The cost of your new Scag are not the same as Larry's hippo. You have to recover your costs plus add a profit to be succesful. Mr. Nilson has several books on costs and bidding. So your costs are higher than Larry's, no big deal because that is where salesmanship comes in. The customer perceives that he is getting more value from you than Larry. We can all agree that a hippo is ugly on your front lawn. Presentation or professionalism is what seperates the truly succesful people from the rest of the pack. When you show up and measure everything, you give the impression that you know what you are doing. Use a wheel because it gives you a real number, a fact, a truism, it won't lie to you. Somebody in this thread mentioned that this was all too much bull, and he could do it by eyesight. He is right but what he fails to realize is that his skill is not transferable, he cannot teach his son how to use his eyes. When he gets old and can't go out to the job site, or he is so busy giving out cheap bids he can't get there but hires another guy to eyeball. You can't expand your business beyond yourself unless you develop a system that can be duplicated by others with the same results. You can teach a guy to measure length by width using a wheel and the number that he comes up will be the same as yours plus or minus 1%. I will share two tidbits when it comes to measuring. when in a condo and you have 15 identical units, you only have to measure the first unit, then multiply by 15.<br>when you are in a very strict town with very strong codes enforcement, you can go to the codes dept and get the blueprint and do your measurements off the blueprints. always check visually that the print matches what was actually built. Also you can go to your county planning commission, and use their aerial photos(keep in mind that some of these might be old pictures) And for some of you high tech guys we are about to get some commerical satelitte photos that are one day old and are accurate down to one meter. These satelitte photos are a little pricy right now. But if you have to measure 42 sites in a school district, it might take 2 weeks doing it the old way versus an afternoon at a desk using a 2,000.00 picture.<p>GeoGunn try paying your workers based upon production. Nobody goofs off then. Instead you end up mediating fights because the truckdriver took too long to get to the next job. Or that new lawnmower that you thought was faster turns out to be a dog. The troops suddenly want to do it the old way because it was faster. They start using sharp sticks on the old hippo side. Its amazing what incentive pay does to a hourly worker<p>

[Lanelle]

Measuring a satelite photo sounds interesting. The accuracy sounds ok too. How about the detail in the photo? Can you measure for bed edging and the other services that go into a commercial maint. bid? I trust that you still go to the site to see if you'll be cutting grass or fighting weeds.

[fireball]

I haven't seen the new high resolution(1M)pictures yet. Congress just gave the Okay to the commerical development about three weeks ago. The old ones you could barely make out beds, so what you did was measure the building and figure the bed was x amount of feet wide. For beds that were free standing such as along a driveway, you had to compare them to a little template that you made up, another words a i inch oblong was 2200 sq ft. What both a satellite and aerial picture won't do for you as yet is like under a tree you can't tell if there is grass or a bed of wintercreeper. I don't think they will ever release the oblique angle photo's which have greater detail due to security reasons

[HOMER]

Sounds like ya'll got a little private conversation going on here! I sure as heck don't understand what ya'll are talking about. Sounds like a joke, but you never know. Well, except for Grasboy! I know he's a joke!<p>Homer

[Lazer]

We've looked at a couple of commercial sites on our county arial maps. They're nice to measure condos and apartments more accurately. <p>I considered purchasing the whole set of the areas we service. Sometimes I get sick of measuring all those lawns.<p>Anyway, I've found that: 1.) I can't use them for landscape installs and 2.) New neighborhoods and office parks spring up constantly and a 1 year old map is of no use.<p>

[curlawngreen]

Grassboy please tell us what you have learned<br>in this discussion. If not please ask inteligent questions. Thank you Tim.

[Lanelle]

Another way to cut down on measuring time is to keep good records of the jobs you've measured, especially ones you bid but didn't get. Here's why: Commercial jobs will come up for bid again in a year or two and in residential areas in our region, people move alot. So the old lady who called us for a bid and then went with a neighbor boy will either call us back when she tires of him or she'll eventually move out to a retirement place. Now a new homeowner is there and we can quickly approach and bid the services they may be interested in having done.

[Retro67]

Lawnnut-&lt;p&gt;You must have an interesting stride if your pace is 7.5 square feet. I walk in linear feet, but have left the bar walking as you describe. One step forward, two steps back. &lt;p&gt;John

[yardsmith]

judas priest guys! we have a regular soap opera going on here.<br>Hey dingo-one more to add to the pot.<br>I am a believer in the measuring wheel, esp. after the first big place I bid on. Had I guesstimated, I would have either lost my butt big time or got laughed at for such a high bid. <br>Also, it definitely tells the customer about professionalism, whether true or not, it makes you look more like a pro to boot.<br>I got a measuring wheel at an auction for $15, so don't think you have to pay top dollar; & yes it works fine. If you want to stay in lawn care & want to grow, then a meas. wheel is a MUST!. Besides, it's a write off. <br>An acre of ground measures out to be 43,560 sq.ft. You need to fig. your expenses & cost of doing business, then use that to find out how much you need to charge to mow an acre of grass. You can have a few fig.'s ; one price for an acre of bare flat ground, one price for trees & a house on it, one price for an acre with hills & lotsa trim work, etc. You get the idea.<br>Take those prices & divide each of them by 43,560 (sq.ft. in an acre). That is how much you will charge for a sq. ft. of whatever kind of lawn you're looking at (your 'sq.ft. charge').<br>Go out to your bid site & measure length by width & multiply together to get total sq. ft. for the property. Times this by your sq.ft. charge according to what kind of terrain it is. That should give you an idea of what to bid. <br>It's a lot less complicated than it sounds.<br>I charge between $35 & 60 for an acre, & that gives me a fig. of $.0008034 per sq.ft. to $.0013774 per sq.ft. to mow, trim, etc. the place.<br>So if I pull up to a place to bid, & I need $50 an acre to do it (all-mow/trim/etc.), I go & measure it. It turns out to be a 400 x 400 ft. plot. 400x400= 160,000 sq.ft. <br>I take 160,000 & div. by 43,560 & I get 3.67 acres. $50 x 3.67 acres = $183.50 to mow each time. Let the math do the work for you. If it's too high for them,see if you can mow only & charge less accordingly. If not, at least you know for sure you would have lost $$ on that account. Good luck.<p>----------<br>Smitty ô¿ô<br>

[Lanelle]

Just a word about wheels. Besides the '$60 wheel' referred to many times, there are a couple of others. One is the same basic model, but it has a kickstand. Nice for open sites but miserable for measuring around shrubs because it gets hung on the lower branches. The 'gee whiz' model has a built-in memory and calculator on the counter. You can have the sq. footage for every section before you get into the truck.

[TGCummings]

Hey Folks,<p>Been doing a lot of archiving (and learning tons! Thanks!) and I had a question on one of these old threads. I want to get me a measuring wheel as soon as possible to make more 'accurate' bids, but I can't find any mention of where to get one. I don't know anyone around town who has one, and I doubt I'll find one at my dealer shop or the local Orchard Supply. <p>Where do I find 'em? Any online sites I could purchase one?<p>Thanks!<p>-TGC

[accuratelawn]

Grainger.com<br>Landscapersupply.com<br>Northerntool.com<p>I am sure you will find one here.

[TGCummings]

Thanks, AL! Found one at Grainger and Northern Tool by Rolotape. 3-foot circumference wheel, folding, and measures up to 100,000 feet (more than enough, I'm sure!). $105 at Grainger and $89.99 at Northern Tool. Appears to be the same model. I'll put aside some duckets to order the NT one in a couple weeks. Thanks!<p>-TGC

[bob]

Home Depot also carries them.

[PLS]

http://www.benmeadows.com

[Guido]

TGC, Thanks for bringing up these old posts and reading the archives before you ask questions! I wish the rest of these new guys would do the same. I kinda want to put my 2 ANAL cents in on measuring out and estimating jobs. If you don't mind taking the time, you can pin point down to the minute how long a job will take. Get your measuring wheel and measure all the turf areas in Sq Ft. Figure out how many SqFt you can cut with your 61&quot;, 48&quot;, or 22&quot;, because it will take different times with different mowers. Next take your wheel again and run it along anywhere you'd trim, along buildings, sidewalks, around trees, etc. Figure out how long it takes you to trim by the foot. Now measure all the paved areas you'll have to blow off, and figure out how long it takes you to blow per sq. ft. This will work for anything else you want to add also, edging, weeding, etc. You'll be super accurate with this and be able to see your profit a lot clearer.<p><br>I think Homer brought up how to figure out how much your equipment costs to run per hour. Heres an example:<p>Price paid for mower: $2,000.00<br>Expected maintenance over x hours you expect to get out of the machine, lets just make up a number cause it will vary greatly depending on your machine: $500.00<br>Fuel cost over x hours $500.00<br>Resale value after you put x ammount of hours on the machine $700.00<p>Now lets see: $2,000.00 new machine<br> +$ 500.00 repairs/Maint<br> +$ 500.00 fuel<br> -----------<br> $3,000.00 expenses<br> -$ 700.00 resale value<br> ------------<br> $2,300.00 total expense over x hours<p>now to find out how much per hour, just divide $2,300 by x hours = how much it costs you every hour that equipment is running. <p>It takes a while to figure it out with maintenance and fuel costs, etc, but it leaves very very little room for error when your bidding or costing a job. IT WILL PAY IN THE END!!!<p>Hope it helped a little.<p><p>----------<br>&lt;a href=&quot;http://communities.msn.com/guidosequipmentpics/&quot;&gt;&quot;Guido&quot;&lt;/a&gt;<br>David M. Famiglietti

[TGCummings]

Plus you have to factor in the costs of your trimmer, edger, and blower and time spent with each, right? Whew...<p>I've been in business for myself about six years, and before that was with this company (my father's) another eleven. Still, I'm looking at it as if I'm just starting. I've learned more in the last several weeks than in the last 17 years combined, and that's not an exaggeration.<p>Essentially, I'm tearing this thing down and rebuilding it from the ground up. Your facts and figures will help immensely, Guido, and I plan to start implementing them (or similar) ASAP. In fact, I'm working on notices this weekend that I'll be handing out to 20 longtime customers this week, essentially rebidding their jobs or dropping my service. Some of them work out so low that my profit is too embarassing to mention.<p>Some of 'em I pay for the privelage to mow. Again, that's not a joke.<p>It's easy to rebid their jobs, however, since I already know how long it takes (with my 21&quot;, that is. I'll rebid all jobs with that machine in mind, taking the extra profit my larger machine will give as I learn it more and more...), so it's a piece o' cake.<p>Once again, and I hope you folks don't get tired of hearing this, but thanks for all your thoughts and ideas. As I rebuild this cesspool of scrubitity my father left me, I'll keep you informed on how well I'm doing (or not doing as the case may be!).<p>Now, I've got some equip maintenance to do!<p>-TGC

[BRL]

Guido,<br>Thanks for your post. I was going to buy one of the books mentioned on this site all the time so I could figure out how to figure out my equipment costs. Now I can save that $ a little bit longer. LOL. I also like your idea of expanding the great mowing measurementprice calculations mentioned earlier in the thread to include the trimming & blowing measurements. What a great thread.

[Guido]

BRL - Slow Down man, you got it all wrong! You should still buy the books!!!!. Actually I think those cost estimating techniques were in them, but I learned how to do that about 3 years or so back from a Walker Talk advertisement magazine!!(Vol. 10)<p>Believe it or not!! It explains it pretty good in there.<p>Those books are a great source of knowledge and can really help you alot, ESPECIALLY with the biz side of the industry. Although you can probobly find most of the stuff in bits and pieces around here, The books are filtered out and the good stuff is in order, inside. It also kind of straightens out the jagged lines. I hope you understand. Thanks for the compliment though, but I'm just trying to pass on some info! I sure as hell can't take credt for making it all up!<p>Hope this helped though!<br><p>----------<br>&lt;a href=&quot;http://communities.msn.com/guidosequipmentpics/&quot;&gt;&quot;Guido&quot;&lt;/a&gt;<br>David M. Famiglietti

[BRL]

Don't get me wrong, I'm still buying the books! You just helped me with my most pressing question, so I can save that $ for another week or 2. :-)

[Guido]

It's oldies night here at Guido's Pad, so heres another one I think will benefit some of you new guys a bit.


Hope it helps!

[eslawns]

When I read all these posts, I couldn't believe the number of people who criticized guys like me for using a measuring wheel. ??? If you want to eyeball it, go right ahead. I did that too. Then I realized there had to be a better way.

I can tell you this: If you used CLIP or some kind of spreadsheet to "crunch" the numbers on time, area, and all that, you'd have a pretty good idea how long it will take to do any size yard. It took a lot of playing with it, but I came up with a reliable formula. I got the idea from the UPS guy that used to pick up where I worked. UPS did "time studies" to see how long EVERY STEP the driver took. If it's good enough for UPS, I can use it too.

Also, I've had several new clients tell me that the reasons they chose me over cheaper guys was 1. the wheel, 2. our uniforms. They told me it looked very professional. Ever hear you never get a second chance to make a first impression? Duh.

I'm a little curious: How many of you guys use 21" mowers for the bulk of your mowing? I have one too, but I'd rather get kicked in the grapes than use only that.

[TGCummings]

Until about two months ago, I used only a 21" for about six years (in business for myself) and for 11 years before that for the previous business owner. Now I use an Exmark 36" Turf Tracer HP and *hate* to pull out the ol' 21". If I could find a commercial mower around 28" or so with the power of the bigger machines, I'd retire my 21" come Spring ... forever ...

-TGC

[Runner]

Hey Ground Effects, Are you in Michigan?

[Island Lawn]

I got my measuring wheel Friday!
(Meterman Series 60 from Gemplers. 19" diameter.)

[kris]

geogunn

sorry i don't quite understand... if my crew screw off for extra 15 minutes it is affecting me the same as it would you ..no matter how we estimate...they are burning you whatever way you look at it.

[shorelinelawn]

I agree with all about wheel, I'll have to run over to Home
Depot and get 1 !!!
I've only been doing this for 4 seasons ( I worked with buddy for a couple of summers b-4 I got smart enough to go it on my own ) .
I concentrate on 2 subdivisions ( about 800 homes ) so most of the lots are pretty close in size. I always upcharge for a fenced yard ( more work- line trimming, gate restrictions etc. ) those cul-de-sac lots require a close look too !!
There is BIG competition in my area, so while I try to price based on a 35.00$ per hour rate, you have to be competitive with your compettition too !! Or else it's somebody else's job- not yours !!
Living in the area I work in is a bonus too ( less travel time ) The competition drops off flyers pre-estimating what MY lawn would be cut for, and I can use that to my advantage too !!. I 've also been known to have the competition estimate my friends lawn, just so I can get a feel for pricing. Kinda sneaky & underhanded , yes, but when you're just starting out, you do what ya gotta do !!
I'm a one man show- no crews to worry about, so some of the
problems you other guys have , I don't have to worry about.

As far as mower size, the old saying " size doesn't matter " is BS !! I realize there are substantial costs involved
between a 21" mower, and a 48" mower. But IF you have the lawns you can put a 48" mower onto , why aren't you ????
Time is money, and if I can cut down on how much time I spend on a lawn, I WILL make more money !! I run a 32" Bobcat, and a 48" Lesco. Burried in my garage is a 22" Craftsman, that comes out ONLY in a dire emergency. I've used it twice in 4 years. I really love it when I bid a job my 48 " fits thru the gate !!!!
Enough for now, time for maintenance !!

[Guido]

Three pages on how to measure a yard!!

INSANE I TELL YOU!!

And of course the only inteligent post in this thread on estimating yards using your measuring wheel and equipment cost figures (all broken down for your convenience)!
Is on page 2 somewhere in the middle by this sharp young guy named Guido or something like that.

Those Eye-Talians (as Homer would say) are really something ain't they!!

:)

[Lawn-Scapes]

Bringing this up again...

I've read through this entire post and... There doesn't appear to be a real definitive answer to this topic...

Everyones hourly rate varies and what XYZ Lawn Care can do in an hour ABC Lawn Service may not be able to. It depends on the equipment used.

Using a wheel, eyeballing it, cutting it for free, etc...

You're not going to charge the little ol' lady with 1 acre of grass who is just getting by on social security the same price as the the wealthy executive with 1 acre of grass. Probably not......

It all comes down to what you and the customer feel is a fair price... Right?

[KD'sLawns]

Sorry, to all of you that use a measuring wheel to figure out what to charge. If someone came to my house to give me a mowing estimate and they brought out the old measuring wheel, they would not get the job even if they were $15.00 cheaper than anyone. I use a measuring wheel for installs only. If I seen someone measuring for mowing, I would laugh and think "this guy is supposed to do this for a living and mows what? 10 to 20 lawns a day and he can not even look at mine and give me an estimate. What a joke.".

[wojo23323]

What is the formula to figure out the sq. ft. of a yard when all 4 sides are different lengths. the measurements are: front 40', right side 200', back length 250' and left side 130'. Any help would be appreciated.

[darryl gesner]

Wojo - Interesting old thread. To answer you question, you're not going to find a formula to calculate an irregular area like this. A couple of options come to mind. You can go the town or county tax assessors office and look at the "field card" or tax map. The field card will definitely have the acerage or square footage on it, the map may or may not. You can try calling the tax assessor and see if they'll tell you the acerage if it's not convenient to go there.

Or, you could sketch the property out to scale on some graph paper. I use engineering pads with 1 inch squares and some finer divisions. Make one inch equal to 20 feet or so. Then break the lawn up into squares, rectangles and triangles on the paper and calculate the area of each and add them up. Or, you can draw it and then count the squares inside the area. You have to estimate because some will be partial squares. I count those over 1/2 and don't count those under 1/2. Do it a few times and take the average. Or if you have a really accurate scale, you can cut out a 1 inch square, weigh it, then cut out the lawn from the paper and weigh that. Divide the two and multiply by how many square feet the square represents to get the answer. Or, if you have autocad or another CAD program, draw it to scale and it will calculate it for you. Or use a planimeter.

Hope this helps and your head isn't spinning.

Darryl

[GraZHopA]

WoJo. The answer to you question is 17,907.5 square feet or 0.41 acres. This was obtain by acad. However, if you do not have the cad program you can get close by using the averages. In this particular case: (40+250) /2 + (200+130) /2 = ~23,925 square feet. I hope this helps.

[wojo23323]

GrazHopa and Darryl - Thanks for the info. I used the graph paper method and came up with about 12,900. That was subtracting pool, concrete and house. I found this website that has a calculator, but I wasn't sure what meaurements to use for X1, Y1 etc... http://www.measurearea.com/calcs.html Their measuring tool seems nice also. I wonder how much it is.

[darryl gesner]

Glad to help. When I measure a lot, I try to break it up into pieces that are easy to calculate while I'm there. Makes it a lot easier IMO.

[David Haggerty]

The best method I found to measure is to actually walk the perimiter of the lawn. It's even better if you can get the customer to walk with you to point out obstacles. Plus it reminds them just how large the lawn really is.
Once I quit estimating a lawn from the front doorstep, my mistakes stopped.
I use a wheel sometimes, but it can give a false reading because it's only good on perfect rectangles, and no lawns are perfect rectangles.
This year I bought an GPS area calculator that calculates irregular areas down to the 1/100 of a square foot.
I was going to pay for it once I got the prices raised on the lawns I'd under estimated.
So I measured every lawn, and figuring in the degree of difficulty, I didn't raise anyone's price a nickle.
I think bdemir is going to find out like I did, you're smarter than you give yourself credit for.
Dave

[wojo23323]

What brand GPS area calculator did you buy?

[David Haggerty]

Originally posted by wojo23323
What brand GPS area calculator did you buy?

It's a Garmin etrex Vista

[Lance L]

who remembers this thread :p
haha i had it saved on my favorites a LONGGG time ago and was looking at the dates and noticed how many times it popped up just doin it again :D

[Lance L]

bump, omg!!