Another View, you won't like

[Bluegrass Lawn Service]

Here is my view on low ballers and you probably won't like it! I've been in this business for 7 years. I'm 55 years old and run two mowing crews, one landscape crew of 2 and starting irrigation and outdoor lighting this year. So I've been around awhile. I have been reading your post and every once in a while I'll post or make a comment.
A lot of the problem with the so call low-balling starts here. You guys are giving out all the trade secrets, telling everyone and anyone how to do, bid, repair, make flyers, give tips, on anything pertaining to this business. You tell what you charge, give pics of your lawns, equipment, everything you tell it all.
This is a great site and we all get a good deal of information, but guys this is business, your business. It's not mine or the good buddy you have never seen in Ohio or Indiana.
Do you think Kentucky Fried Chicken ever gave out that secret recipe for chicken? Did Wal-Mart tell everyone how to be the largest retailer in the world. Not on your life.
Is our business so low down that we want to give important information to millions on the web.
Most of you guys are young, under 25, wanting to grow your business and if you tell on this site that you will mow a 6,000 sq ft. lawn for $35.00. Then that tells me and millions other that I can do it for $25.00 and probably get a lot of them.
I'm sorry if you don't see it this way.

[FrankenScagMachines]

You're right but only to an extent. I have figured out that our local prices are lower than on LS anyway. I also figured out that I will be keeping some of my important secrets, a secret. I'll tell some things but they are not the kind of things that will make or break me. Yea I'm 15 and still "wet behind the ears" maybe but I have a few things I haven't told no body about! Oh but it is hard to keep a secret. I do agree with you but as they say, the damage is already been done. Also on the flip side LS can and has worked to raise prices in some cases. when i first got on I would have priced a $25 lawn at $15 because I didn't know any better, no one told me. Now I know what it's worth and charge just as much as anyone for it. I ain't no scrub either, I'm licensed, insured ($1 million liability) and have the right equipment for the job, price as high as I can (and still get the job, within reason), do the best work I have seen around (not kidding), don't hire anyone right now so quality is right up there with no careless worker tearing up the yard. Yes I do not have a license yet but I still do not think I am a scrub. Even when I had homeowner equipment I did very professional work and I doubt you could have done much if any better with commercial equipment. I always make the best with what I have.

BTW, where at in So. IN are you? Do you know where Columbus IN is at?

[cos]

I don't see it that way. If everyone had their prices within the same range, then we wouldn't have someone that preforms shotty work in a neighborhood that they don't belong.

I have no idea how many people from my area use forums, nor do I care, but this is one tool that gets used frequently.

[GroundKprs]

Life should be so simple, LOL. Lowballers exist in every trade, even licensed supposedly professional trades. Many landscapers know how to plant a shrub or tree, but digging that planting hole 2x to 3x the size of the ball is a lot of work. And many know how to mulch properly, but it's cheaper to just throw on an inch of mulch. Mr Lowball's landscape looks the same as one done professionally when it's finished, and it's only 60% of the cost - what a deal. But that great deal starts to fall apart in a month, after the bill is paid, LOL.

One of my clients got a flyer last week proposing a $30 mowing, on a property I get more than twice that amount. He laughed and handed it to me - he knows he'd be getting much less than half the care of his lawn. And he wants the best possible care.

If someone wants to lowball, he usually does without coming to LawnSite. That said, I never quote price figures here because the pricing of our work is so variable across the country. If someone bases his pricing on what he gets from this board, he could be dramatically over- or under-priced.

[Casey]

So do you think that if we didn't share prices here, that would stop some of the people that advertise 10% less than your current LCO.

[Bluegrass Lawn Service]

Yes I know where Columbus is. I'm about 50 minutes south of there. I truly hope you make a lot of money in this business and there is a lot to be made. We are in the number one cash crop in Indiana. The green industry has been growing fast for several years. I to keep my prices up, even higher than most in my area. I tell a good many new prospects that I will probably be higher than their last service. Sometime I get it and sometimes I don't.
You take a look at most of the post and see the questions that are being asked and see if you don't think we are giving away too much information. No it's not too late

[FrankenScagMachines]

So what town you in? Down in the Brownstown area?

[Bluegrass Lawn Service]

Casey
Yes I do. I wouldn't think of giving out prices to my competitors in this area. Or most any other information. Now I'll speak to them, even talk with them but I get all I can and give very little.

Take your neighborhood grocery, he'll go to Wal-mart, Kroger, and the local Piggly Wiggly to find out there prices, then he goes to his store and starts marking down a few cents to gain more business.

[Bluegrass Lawn Service]

Here is something else you probably won't like either. Just a few post down the list is a post that says " everybody is low balling "
it has 77 replys and 2582 views. I would almost bet some no smoke two cycle oil that the remaining 2505 are low-ballers or they would have replyed to the topic. What do you think?

[johnhenry]

I always believe that you should learn more everday. This site is one way to learn and help others here.There are lowballers in every industry. In a funny short of way this industry has taken a step up and things are changing all the time.We who are involved now should be thankful we are already in this industry. Because in a few years it wont be as easy to start in to. State and city laws and prices and insurance issues are just some things that will make it harder to get in to.Plus with forums like this we are learning and teaching each other faster & better ways of improving our business and quality of work at the same time.We have raised the industry standards in so many ways the last few years. We all make choices but what you learn from those choices
will predict the path you choose

[Bluegrass Lawn Service]

John Henry I totally agree with you, however there are limits to the information that we give. I'm not trying to upset anyone and I really enjoy this and other sites. However I don't think you'll find a way on the web to start banking. Or how to become a dot-com. or build a great car that will run on water. To me this is the only industry that give away so much information to millions.
Not to long ago I went on the web to find out about a tractor that I was looking at and found a great deal of information. I believe that is good. What mowers are good could be ok, however I hope all my competitors buy cheap ones that break down every day and their trimmers won't start and the wheels fall off their trailers.

[Randy Scott]

I pretty much agree with Bluegrass. I've spent too many nights up late, or getting back out of bed at 3 in the morning to write down things that have come to mind. Racking my brain trying to make sure all the bases are covered with expenses and what I need to charge to reach my goals. I don't have any major business degree and therefore try to school myself as I go. To actually figure out how many hours I have to make money a season, what it takes to pay bills and then myself. I've done trial and error on mowing times, shrub trimming times, landscape and lawn install work, I've had to guesstimate all that stuff and if I bid low, I still need to perform quality work and learn from my mistakes.

So with all that said, why should I, or anyone else, just hand the fruits of our labor over? Do you people on here actually think we would all be better off with some master pricing book everybody follows? Why should the more intelligent individuals reveal any skills they have to the less intelligent? It's not even a matter of intelligence, as much as THEIR EFFORT to learn the business aspects and what it takes to get going in the right direction with it. Does this mean we would all have all the work we could handle and wouldn't have problems getting work? Each of us would bid the same as another company on the same lawn? I don't get it. I hope that I'm better and smarter than the next guy. That will make my business better than his. I just don't get how some of you think that we would all be better off knowing and pricing exactly like others do.

To me, and what I see on this forum, is that nobody wants to put forth the effort to make their business work. They want everything given to them and their using lowballers or lowballing as a crutch, to get others to just hand their knowledge over to them. Using the excuse that it will help everyone. Well bullshirt, learn it for yourself. I get a kick out of those that say they "already have a price for something", but was curious what others would charge. What a load of ****. Besides, there are so many variables between each company and area it cannot even apply. That's just how stupid some people are though.

This site is great for exchanging thoughts and ideas on procedures and products. When it comes time to pricing, get your lazy ***** to do the legwork yourself. Don't give me your cost on sod and topsoil and rental of a skidsteer and then ask how much to charge to install it, that's what you need to figure out. The fact that questions like that are asked, just prooves you have no business sense and no idea how a business works. By giving you the answers to questions like that are only prolonging your failure. The fact that you don't know how to arrive at those numbers says a whole lot about you.

I really don't care what people think and they can just keep kidding themselves about this situation and the real solution to it. Keep crying about lowballers and scrubs, that will solve the real problem won't it? Keep asking pricing questions without knowing how they are arrived at, that'll help you succeed won't it? Big deal, you'll just go out of business next year instead of this year. :rolleyes:

Alright, let me have it now guys, I know the truth hurts.

[David Haggerty]

Originally posted by Bluegrass Lawn Service

Is our business so low down that we want to give important information to millions on the web.


Yes.

I think sharing information raises the standards of the industry.

On Lawnsite I've gained a hundred times more information than I've been able to contribute.


But if you believe the way to succeed in business is on the backs of your broken competitors, it's OK with me if you take a pass on the sharing thing.


Dave

[challenger55]

most all of us are in different parts of the u.s. so it wouldn't matter if we told secerets about the business and plus everybody is helping each other out

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

What's the whole concept of Lawnsite??? To share and exchange ideas. I have no secrets to hide. I have more work than I know what to do with. I let my work do the talking. Hey Bluegrass, if you've been in this biz for 7 years, it seems as if you would have figured it out by now and not worry about scrubs or lowballers. I consider lowballers and scrubs as opportunities. I get a large grin when I see a scrub mowing beside one of my accounts. I know it's not a question of if, but when I'll get his account due to lack of professionalism

[TotalCareSolutions]

I had about 2 pages of Philosphical mumbo jumbo and my 2 year old daughter came and hit a button....lucky for everybody it all somehow went away.

Bottom line, hes right.

....take heed to this post.

signed,
New to Life and this Forum, yet pretty successful w/ business.

[LB Landscaping]

Well said Lawns& Mower. I agree, this kind of information is why Lawnsite is such a great source for both newbies and experienced.

[Turfdude]

So what if people put a number on a service! I may quote someone $XX per hour as well as 10 others. But do we all have the same overhead?? DO some of the competitors know what their overhead is?? Does the competition know what the market will really bear??

If the answers to these questions are predominantely Idunno - then who cares?. Chances are the competition won't be around as long as an established organization.

There are many things besides price that will make you a valuable asset to your clients. It is finding this secret that will make it worth the while. I am far from the cheapest in my area, but I know that my clients get more than what they pay for in the quality of their service.

The purpose of this forum is to assist others, lend an ear to others, vent hostilities and gain general knowledge where applicable. If you don't agree w/ someone's opinion, then ignore their response. If you don't agree w/ the forum ..... then stay away from LAWNSITE.

This is my $.02 on the issue. I personally believe that this truely is the best discussion forum on the web for our industry. What Chuck, Eric (RIP) and Sean have done here speaks volumes. The time,effort and response from the LS members is second to none. This community rocks!

[BRIAN GALLO]

Here's my whole take on the situation. There are people who get in to this business, not knowing quite how to price things and come in on the low side. Many people write them off as stinkin' no good low balling scrubs! If that "new" guy really wants to make a go of things he will educate himself and his prices will come up, because they have to for him to stay in business. In that respect, then Lawnsite becomes a valuable education tool for someone who really wants to be professional. I feel a true scrub or lowballer is someone who is satisfied with taking less when more is available. Further more, that person would be an obvious moron to say "I can get $40 for this lawn, but I'll do it for $15 because I want to be a scrub". Chances are that person won't be looking for any info here because they will have a whole "rage against the machine" attitude anyway. It's like lgf says "if you're stupid, you deserve to suffer". Just my thoughts.

[mike9497]

i think giving out my info to people helps to stop the low balling.i remember when i started out.i didn't know anything about the trade i just enjoyed mowing lawns.i didn't have a POT TO P*** IN.
i was lucky to make friends with someone who has been in the field for years.i learned alot off him and if it wasn't for him i would have a job as a bagger at stop & shop.this site is to help others out.to give them some direction so they can compete with everyone else.because if we didn't help they would go out and low ball everything they did and go from 10 accounts to 100 then they would be screwed because they don't have the equipment or man power to handle them all.then they go out of biz and get a bad name.then we are stuck with bidding these places and the customer says well joe cheapo landscaping who went out of biz last year did it for half of what you want.

[roscioli]

I am not sure how I feel on this subject, I see both sides. In a way I think its great to be able to help out those who might otherwise be scrubs, because they will lower teh standards for the industry if they become scrubs. However, giving away information is just that... hard earned info, given to competitors for free. I am surprised at Randy Scott for taking the position he did, he is usually one of the more knowledgable and helpful. One thing to reply to on his post though is the talking about "I get a kick out of those that say they "already have a price for something", but was curious what others would charge." I am not on here everyday, so perhaps others have done this, but my most recent two... bidding a sod job, and bidding a regular seeding job, I had prices worked up before hand. I did adjust both of those due to responses I had, but not by more than 2-3%. I dont know if you were referring to my threads Randy, but mine were legit, I give you my word on that... and I know many others were too, though I do see some that are blatantly not legit. I think it could be a very fun excersize to bid jobs like this, though based on the very limited response, I guess I was wrong.
Equipment- I would never have known what to get as far as equipment goes... the magazines are too small to be able to objectively review any equipment (or risk pissing off sponsors), and thats where this site comes in.
Prices- We ARE in different parts of the nation, but hell, it is ONE nation after all, prices will be similar, but if you are too stupid to see that Boston prices and Wisconsin prices are going to be different, you are going to fail regardless of if you copy my prices or not. I worry about lurkers, so I guess maybe I should be more discreet sharing prices.
I will think more and respond more later

[TLS]

What gets me lately now that I'm thinking about it is....

A good percentage of us have been in business a few decades. We learned the HARD way! Someone can come on here and learn what it took me 24 years to figure out in about a week or two! :rolleyes:

Thats good for them, but I feel they may not realize what their forefathers (the rest of us) had to go through without this wealth of knowledge.

There are so many things I learned over the years just from experience. I've certainly forgot more than I posted on here to help others. Plus there's the whole experience aspect that "quick learn" Joe will be without.

I'm all for sharing, as there were a few friends back in the day that shared bits and peices along the way.

There are quite a few of us on here that are withen 30 miles of one another. I can think of 5 or 6 that I have talked to, but they still aren't close enough to cause any competition problems. Now if your posting a future prospect/contract in detail and giving the address out, then thats your own fault.


Does what I said make ANY sense whatsoever??? :confused:

Sorry, its late!

[Haley Lawn Care]

You know when you worked for someone else it was always how much you were making an hour. Well--- you work for yourself now. So you pay yourself a little more per hour plus you have to have enough to run the business and hopefully have a little left over after all is said and done. That should not be much of a problem to figure how much you need to make an hour. It is simple math. Wage plus cost plus profit equals xx dollars per hour.
Hey if some of the people have CLIP software and quickbooks software it is very simple to find out how much you spend per hour to run your company. Asking questions is okay but hands on experience is the best way to learn. So you don't ask how much per bale of pine needles. You ask yourself how many per hour installed to make xx dollars per hour. Prices will vary by location. Its the same with yards to mow or mulch to install. You can get a price here but you have to know how long it will take you to do the work by yourself so you will know how much to charge per hour. Anyway just my thoughts. :D

David ;)

[TotalCareSolutions]

Would you share as much if we all lived w/in 100 Mi of ea other?

[GroundKprs]

Yes, TotalCare. It is much easier to share face-to-face. And face-to-face is easier right here in town.

But I have driven over two hours to a face-to-face meeting with someone I met on this or other forums, I order to openly interact. And I have had others come to meet me here. Be afraid of sharing what I learned in 20+ years in the business? Never, because tomorrow I'm going to learn something new, to help me work better. Those who think they know it all, and want to guard all that valuable info, are going to be left in the dust by those who keep moving forward. And it doesn't matter whether you've been in business for 3 years or 30 years.

I'll dust you if you know it all, and you'll dust me if I know it all. But if we're both learning and share openly together, we both get better every day, and we'll both dust everyone else, LOL.

[e-RoK]

I spent my winter telemarketing. A good chuck of it was for lawn care companies. Like US Lawns, Weed Man, Earth Turf, Natural Lawn of America. The one thing I noticed it that when people are happy with their service, they won't change. Some people even considered their "lawn guys" friends. I'm sure due to good rapor with the client over time. Not many people really were swayed by the temptation of a lower price. So I would focus on quality $ good service, and I would say you would need to worry about lowballers. Eventually they'll either quit mowing, or raise their prices. I mean alot of guys are basically working for nothing or little profit. That couldn't last long. And I think if a client would leave you for a $5-$10 difference, they really aren't the type of long term clients you would want. I'm sure other industries have low ballers and scabs too. That's just a part of life. Seperate yourself by being professional. Like Jim Lewis. That dude has got it going on. I love his business philosophy.

[thartz]

From my experience this forum has been great.I stumbled onto this site by accident and found one of my biggest competitors was posting here.Now we are best of friends and respectively don't tread on each others area.We probably talk 2-3 times a day or stop and have lunch.He truly has become one of my closest friends.I see and hear the same thing at my power equipment dealers and at local trade shows and certification seminars as I do here;this is globally verses locally.It seems like it is very hard to keep secrets in this industry.Want to know someone's pricing?go bid on one of the jobs they are.50% of the time I'll hear"well so-n- so bid my lawn at X" or your too high or too low.Instant info just from feedback.To me this is a great place to read about people who go through the same successes and pitfalls I have.It's definetly an industry you have to be in to understand the brotherhood involved.

[John Gamba]

YOU said IT bluegrass!!!

[harpoonalt]

Just like home prices differ from state to state, lawn service prices differ from market to market based on the income and cost of living in an area. I know that what my friend pays for an equivalent house in CT. is about twice what the same house would be here in VT. His lawn guy charges way more than I can in my town but that is the going rate there.
Someone with $500 worth of equipment will always be able to underbid you and may even do great work. If you choose to invest in good equipment and be professional, you need to market yourself to that part of the population who wants that type of service.
Ask yourself what things do you buy and pay a premium price for? A friend of mine has a $5000 shotgun to hunt birds. He obviously feels that the money was well spent as the perceived value is important to him. Does it shoot birds $5000 better, probably not. Everyone ends up shopping for some things soley by price. I would buy a $300 shotgun because I don't see the difference. it's not important to me. He wouldn't buy a $5000 lawn mower because he does (to him) the same thing with his Craftsman.
What I'm trying to say is find the people who want a quality, professional job and market to them. Find a way to sellthem that $5000 shotgun Vs. the $300 Mossberg. Think of the reasons that you pay more for things and the places that you shop that aren't the cheapest. I pay more for service, friendly employees, convience, quality, cleanliness. Be those things and you will be worth more to the right people. The wants who shop for price alone are not your market. Ignore them.
That said, Lawnsite has been a godsend to me. I have learned more here than I could have in years of business. I agree that some things are too free. I think $20 or so a year to subscribe would eliminate the casual freeloader. It would be worth every penny to me. My .02

[Turf Dancer]

In this game marketing is the #1 Key ! I think marketing is as important as the level of service. I know you can't have one without the other for long. I know a guy who provided a great service at a more than fair price and hardly grew his business at all for 3 years but kept on going and had another job as well. When he finally got it figured out what markets he wanted he went and started getting into those markets. Bingo now things are picking up for him. I don't tell my secrets and I don't ask others theirs. I figure my method is working and I don't have the highest rates in town either. I have a market that i am targeting and it is working to an extent ! Find what works for you and go with it !

[Sean Adams]

This is a good one...with some great information and opinions....


LawnSite is designed to help anyone and everyone in this business. One's level of need may differ from another. If you can't help, or don't want to help - certainly your option and right.

But for those who have no problem helping, it is appreciated.

Side note...

Sometimes when meeting potential clients I will ask them for the prices they received from others.... I will help them breakdown how they came to that price versus how we came to ours.... it quickly becomes aware to them why we are more expensive - and they don't argue price after that.

I tell them how to save money when it comes to their lawn & landscape needs. I tell them what they truly need and truly don't need. I almost confuse them because I'm being so open and honest and helpful. Not my intent....but they soon realize, I want to work with them to make them happy and satisfy their needs.

Also, as far as us providing info for oneanother.... I look at it this way....

If someone walked up to me, handed me a map with directions written in greek that lead to a buried treasure (and I didn't know that), I'm sure the map would hit the bottom of the trash can and not a second thought would be given.

It's the same idea here....

There is a TON and a WEALTH of information at this site. Would take forever to read. This site contains many, if not all of the answers to running a successful business in this industry - marketing, advertising, taxes, equipment, management, employees, growth, etc....

Some people know how to use it....others let it hit the bottom of the trash can cause it's nothing but greek to them....

Either way, without doubt....this industry is improving because of you, the members....

[cajuncutter]

I do not know about the rest of you all but here where I am in North West Louisiana there are only a handful of us that are members or actually come here. As for people in my area learning trade secrets here and lowballing from that I would disagree. On average I talk to an LCO for the first time once a month while at the parts shop and in casual conversation ask them if they have ever heard of this site. They look at me like I am nutts. So when they say no I suggest they come here and I would be willing to be very few if any even bother to come here and read. Also for the crews with the truck load of murrays and the old run down Snapper rider clones most of those guys don't even have computers. Not trying to come across racist but most of those guys are old black fellows that have there 3 sons and 2 grandkids working for them. I have learned the reason the work so cheap is they all live under the same roof, the funds go to one place and taxes I assume are not being with held. They have no insurance and little overhead. There are no payroll checks to cut every week. That is usually the case down here and for the simple fact that there are a lot of solo operations poping up to make some quick cash to supplement their already low paying 30 to 40 hour a week job.

[Mickhippy]

Originally posted by Sean Adams
This is a good one...with some great information and opinions....


LawnSite is designed to help anyone and everyone in this business. One's level of need may differ from another. If you can't help, or don't want to help - certainly your option and right.

But for those who have no problem helping, it is appreciated.

Side note...

Sometimes when meeting potential clients I will ask them for the prices they received from others.... I will help them breakdown how they came to that price versus how we came to ours.... it quickly becomes aware to them why we are more expensive - and they don't argue price after that.

I tell them how to save money when it comes to their lawn & landscape needs. I tell them what they truly need and truly don't need. I almost confuse them because I'm being so open and honest and helpful. Not my intent....but they soon realize, I want to work with them to make them happy and satisfy their needs.

Also, as far as us providing info for oneanother.... I look at it this way....

If someone walked up to me, handed me a map with directions written in greek that lead to a buried treasure (and I didn't know that), I'm sure the map would hit the bottom of the trash can and not a second thought would be given.

It's the same idea here....

There is a TON and a WEALTH of information at this site. Would take forever to read. This site contains many, if not all of the answers to running a successful business in this industry - marketing, advertising, taxes, equipment, management, employees, growth, etc....

Some people know how to use it....others let it hit the bottom of the trash can cause it's nothing but greek to them....

Either way, without doubt....this industry is improving because of you, the members....

EVERYONE should read that! What is a forum if know one puts ideas, tips, helps one another etc. Even stories funny or not can teach a thing or two.
If you dont want to put your ideas etc why are you here? It makes my blood boil sometimes reading some of the posts that appear. Probably why I keep coming back!
Maybe you'd be happier swapping email addresses and talk among-st yourselves.

[LawnMowerMan2003]

Bluegrass:

What you are saying doesn't quite make sense to me, because you already admit that your prices are high. So why would somebody need to see them to give a lower bid? I would assume any lowballer is going to automatically bid lower than you, as well as some of your competitors that aren't lowballers, without even knowing your prices.

[Toroguy]

Originally posted by TotalCareSolutions
Would you share as much if we all lived w/in 100 Mi of ea other?

No!


One thing I see about this that makes me not fear the information exchange here is:

A football analogy. To become a professional football player takes hard work. You must practice daily and be committed to your body, health and training. But only a few people will make that sacrifice. Even with the simple formula and tons of information on health, physical fitness, conditioning, etc. And still only a few come out of college and become professionals.

With all the info and help, it still boils down to you personally.

[Fantasy Lawns]

One of my favorite quotes in life from Judge Smails in Caddy Shack

"The world needs ditch diggers too."

Bluegrass raise's a good point ..... which has some merit ....but I'll have to agree with Tom of the experience ..... they can read all the want .... n get some good direction ....but it takes real world work to but it too use

The way I look at is this .... From all the post concerning Lowballers or Scrubs .... what ever one feels they must attach some sort of demeaning "name" to someone whom either has no clue or wishes to take the risk of breaking the law ..... so be it .... let em ..... there are many lawns I do not wish to do ....n if I bid I almost double my price cause .... I don't want it .... so if someone else comes buy n bids it lower to get .... GREAT

On to other work .... that I DO want .... if I bid a job ... I make sure to EDUCATE them .....much like what Sean does ..... I explain the importance of soliciting of bids …. Yes ….just let’s make it an even play field ….. we have the Liability insurance as well as Commercial Vehicle Insurance …. The Workman’s Comp …. Fed EIN # ….License to operate in our county …. We have a list of references which we invite them to call …. We give a current list of work jobs which we encourage them to drive by n look at ….we give them photo samples of our work

If some one can operate at a lower cost to them …. Than ALL the power to them …. Will they last ….NO …. If an illegal operation wishes to bid a job …n that PM takes them on …. Great ….I don’t want to work for such a PM or Manager whom is price shopping ….MOST LEGIT Commercial bids look for the PROPER Paper work …. So scrubs or such don’t worry me !!

Most Resi’s don’t care but the Real nice homes want so much detail work that they look for image issues or previous references … n if they can’t come up they hire another … Than they get tired of the race n finally hire a Pro … I always try to Educate em soooo when I have the chance n they get tired of play’n with the boys ... They remember ME n Call

As far as gaining some Insight to this business here on the site … YES … one can get some great ideas ….much more than I was given … I learned thru the school of hard knocks …..

But unless you have the basic drive to RUN a business as well as the Ability to Learn …. Through Gained Experience ….. Flexibility & Wiliness to Adapt to Change … Responsibility for ones own Actions … Good Communication Skills … Fore sight to Future Growth & Improvement of One’s Appearance in the Community …It takes more than this ... but these ability's MUST be mixed in with ALL the Insight one gains from this Site

But Again Mike .... You DO raise a very valid point ..... that's why I won't post "certain" things which I Know are important to my successs .... but I do enjoy helping when I can n also learning from others

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Bluegrass Lawn Service
Here is my view on low ballers and you probably won't like it! I've been in this business for 7 years. I'm 55 years old and run two mowing crews, one landscape crew of 2 and starting irrigation and outdoor lighting this year. So I've been around awhile. I have been reading your post and every once in a while I'll post or make a comment.
A lot of the problem with the so call low-balling starts here. You guys are giving out all the trade secrets, telling everyone and anyone how to do, bid, repair, make flyers, give tips, on anything pertaining to this business. You tell what you charge, give pics of your lawns, equipment, everything you tell it all.
This is a great site and we all get a good deal of information, but guys this is business, your business. It's not mine or the good buddy you have never seen in Ohio or Indiana.
Do you think Kentucky Fried Chicken ever gave out that secret recipe for chicken? Did Wal-Mart tell everyone how to be the largest retailer in the world. Not on your life.
Is our business so low down that we want to give important information to millions on the web.
Most of you guys are young, under 25, wanting to grow your business and if you tell on this site that you will mow a 6,000 sq ft. lawn for $35.00. Then that tells me and millions other that I can do it for $25.00 and probably get a lot of them.
I'm sorry if you don't see it this way.

You make some good points. It's just my instinct is to help out guys starting out. And since I also ask some questions here, I guess I feel I should answer some.

But you make a good point about giving out all the "secrets". I can mow much better and faster than when I started out, and even after 11 years I still learn a trick or two each year.
I watch crews nearby sometimes and see how slow they are, even if they're trying, they're just not as effective, due to lack of experience.

I could help increase some companies' mowing effectiveness as a consultant, but nobody wants to pay for that.

For example, after some experience now with a stick edger, I can tell you that using a string trimmer to edge while also trimming is much faster for me than having to return to unload and crank up another tool. Two trips around the property just take longer than one.

[noahrules]

I agree with what some are saying about giving out info but I have to ask how the people who know how to price things learned? Most of you worked for someone else first, isn' t that the same sort of thing as sharing info? I know that I always ask what the indusrty average is and then make adjustment in my bids. We have all had some advice from outside people, be it for start-up, buying a truck, or equipment, the right way to bid. Your will always have someone cheaper than you, you knew that when your started, hell most of us were the lowballers at one time. You lived and learned and found out that you had to be able to make a living.

[Clay]

First, what we do isn't rocket science!!! It mainly just takes hard work and discipline....

Second, Thank goodness there are some lowballers around to service the PITA's :-) I don't want the unloyal price shoppers... let the scrubs fight over them... lol...

So I give out all I can to someone willing to listen and learn from another's experience... But it's not what they know that counts, only what they do! Most simply lack the discipline to do what they know....

Sure wish this site was around when I started...

Good Luck Guys, Clay

[Dependable Lawncare]

Let me tell you what, as a "new guy" I really appreciate the information found on this site. It has helped me make some crucial decisions such as the right equipment to buy for my situation, and pricing to a degree.

I've been working "regular jobs" for my whole adult life, going from place to place, giving it my all, waiting for someone to pay me what I'm worth. I've worked for idiot bosses and upper management, and dealt with co-workers that have no concept of work ethic and teamwork.

When I decided to do lawncare full time it was an easy choice. I go from working for around $10 an hour for someone else to doing small lawns for $20-$35 each. It takes anywhere from 20-45 minutes to make that money. After expenses and taxes it's still a pretty good wage for my part of the country.

Clay is right, it isn't rocket science. But judging from the current workforce in America most do not have the dicipline or drive to make it. The "scrubs" so disdained on this site will fall by the wayside. The people who are meant to succeed will, and this site alone is not the deciding factor. But thanks for the help!!!!!!!

[bobbygedd]

good god bluegrass has a brain! u r right, 110% absolutely right.

[KenH]

Originally posted by Clay
First, what we do isn't rocket science!!! It mainly just takes hard work and discipline....


Good Luck Guys, Clay

Here is where you are misguided. Make your customers believe IT IS rocket science. I have a BS degree in Plant Science, believe me, you could make it rocket science. Then you can charge the big bucks...

[Clay]

Originally posted by KenH
Here is where you are misguided. Make your customers believe IT IS rocket science. I have a BS degree in Plant Science, believe me, you could make it rocket science. Then you can charge the big bucks...

No Thanks!!!.... Not into BS....

This is one of the things I hear all too frequently, not only in this business, but business in general...... "How much can I get out of them?" "Oh man, I got 'em for $$$$"....

Why can't people simply be fair, honest, and try to develop a win-win relationship that will strengthen over time instead of trying to swindle every dime and leave a trail of disgruntled customers that want to take it out on the next guy???

If display of integrity is misguided, I don't mind being lost! :dizzy:

Clay

[accuratelawn]

I can see both sides on this topic.
I have been on this site since the start, and the others prior to LS.
My first year in lawn care, I knew very little about equipment, pricing, marketing of this business, etc. etc.
I did what every other newbie did at first. Ran an ad in the paper and bought a lawn tractor and homelite trimmer....Insurance..ha.
Shortly there after, I found lawn care message boards, and read them two to three times per day. After my P.O.S. equipment expired, I bought the RIGHT stuff, purchased the insurance that I thaught was too expensive, order the State pesticide manuals, passed the test, and got the state and city licenses that are required to be legit.
Since going about this the right way my net revenue has increased every year. Not bragging, just trying to say that had I not found these boards, I might still be mowin for cash.

[KenH]

Originally posted by Clay
No Thanks!!!.... Not into BS....

This is one of the things I hear all too frequently, not only in this business, but business in general...... "How much can I get out of them?" "Oh man, I got 'em for $$$$"....

Why can't people simply be fair, honest, and try to develop a win-win relationship that will strengthen over time instead of trying to swindle every dime and leave a trail of disgruntled customers that want to take it out on the next guy???

If display of integrity is misguided, I don't mind being lost! :dizzy:

Clay

Anyone can buy a truck and a mower and cut lawns. How many do you know with a college education in the field?? I bet not many. With knowledge comes added responsibilities, therefore higher costs. Would you let me stitch a cut on your arm, or would you pay "big bucks" to have an educated Dr. do it right?? I think I know the answer.

Fwiw--Ive been in business for 20 years, and had some customers for 15.

If you have a good relationsahip with your clients, they will not mind paying you what you are worth. (I dont know about you, but Im worth 'big bucks')

Can you please point me to the part in my previous post where I recommend raping the customers?? Please do not put words in my mouth.

[imalandscper]

If you like it stay. If you do not like it leave. If you stay and not post and just read you are a moocher. If you stay and post and read then you are gonna win. There is a ton of info here. Like sean said "you just have to know how to use it."


Andy

[Clay]

Originally posted by KenH
Here is where you are misguided. Make your customers believe IT IS rocket science. I have a BS degree in Plant Science, believe me, you could make it rocket science. Then you can charge the big bucks...

Ken,

First of all, your quote above spells out rather plainly that you feel you need to make your customers "believe" it is something that it isn't (your words)... Then you want them (and us) to believe that you should be able to charge more because you have a "BS Degree"??? It may not be, but that post sounds like you charge more for the same work???

Second, I make it a point not to direct harsh comments at anyone unless directed my way first.... To say I am misguided is to cast the first stone... I'm no rookie on this playing field and have been in business as long as you have with over 500 commercial and residential accounts that I have personally maintained.... Not only have I built and sold 8 successful 6 figure operations, I have also personally trained and mentored 8 other people to be successful in their own business as well... Proof that some of the best educations don't come in paper form... :-)

So if your post is not how it reads, please enlighten us...

Clay

[NCSULandscaper]

I really dont care what other companies do or what they charge. I just worry about my company.

[KenH]

Originally posted by Clay
Ken,

First of all, your quote above spells out rather plainly that you feel you need to make your customers "believe" it is something that it isn't (your words)... Then you want them (and us) to believe that you should be able to charge more because you have a "BS Degree"??? It may not be, but that post sounds like you charge more for the same work???

Clay

Have you ever opened up a Turf Management book?? If so, than you can agree it is rather technical...along the terms of 'rocket science.' That is my point. (I meant to imply lawn care IS involved) Inform your customers this business is A LOT more involved than slapping down a CC for a mower and truck. Dont you think it is better to educate clients as to how technical lawn care really is?? Its the attitude that "it is not rocket science" which belittles our profession and welcomes so many newcomers. This is what you have stated, and IMO is a very harmful thoery. If you believe it is that easy, than why arent more people successful like yourself?? Education is crucial, whether it be from schooling or first hand experience.

[Bluegrass Lawn Service]

I think all of you have good points and agree in some way with all of you. However I have no education in this field, but have the experience of trial and error. To me that's valuable. Not trying to say that everyone should learn the hard way but it makes you appreciate more when you succeed. I took nothing and made it into a 6 to 8 employee operation giving jobs to many that had none. I provide health care, a fair wage and give them something to be proud of. I'm not really wanting to give out all that information to my competitors. I already have had some that I laid off, fired or what ever and they take my methods to another company which helps them and I'm not really wanting to help them. On here I would like to see the equipment companies come on with some helpfull information, however you don't see them. Wouldn't it be nice to see, for example echo, toro, exmark, who ever give several demo, around the regions on larger customers lawns. Louisville Ky is a dust bowl. I would like to demo equipment in the real world. For example I mow for a school corporation that would allow this after school season.
They also could answer many questions on this or other sites

[HOMER]

It might not take a rocket scientist to do this work but I'll challenge any out there to make a site look as good as I can........then we'll see what a rocket scientist knows!

He need not ask me to do his job either:p

[Andrew S]

The difference between me and my competitors is this...

I turn up on time,provide a friendly reliable service as well as good pricing.

I also offer suggestions on how to improve their properties

If my competitors are doing the same as I am then they will have no problem retaining their customers.....if they do not then the customer will move on until they find the right contractor for them.

above all else take an interest in your customer

just my 25cents worth thanks

[GroundKprs]

Mr. Bluegrass and so many others, you seem to be stuck in the radically independant ideals of so many in the green industry. It is human nature to be drawn to plants, we are from nature and it is instinctive in us to go back to nature. Many individuals make a success in the business by their own trial and error, but they know only a small fraction of real knowledge.

A formal education is not the complete answer either. "Advanced education teaches two things. General theory in field and better thinking in a field. Practical knowledge as we all know comes from experience." (From an old LS post.) Education mostly just teaches you where to go for the right answers - yes, there is a way besides trial and error.

There are many regional and local hands on equipment displays as you ask for, but so many don't know about them because they are too independant to ask. Many manufacturers and distributors have roving display units, and often they will be at local dealers. But the operators who are so cloistered in their own world never learn about these events. Mike, have you ever been to the annual MRTF field day at Purdue in July, the IPLLA field day at Indy in Aug, the MRTF winter conference in Indy in Jan, the INLA winter conference in Indy in Jan? And there are many other activities by these groups, and local events, here and in adjoining states. One never learns about all this info and experience unless he is out there sharing and learning every day.

The first post is correct about discussing actual numbers, but not from a local competition perspective. I only discuss numbers with guys locally, because pricing and costs vary so much by locality across the country. Of course, I am selective about who I will discuss this with, LOL.

[Clay]

Ken,

The last thing I want to do with you or anyone here is to get into a pissing match... but I also don't like to see someone belittle others as if they are somehow superior.... My whole point in the reply was to point out that you don't neet to belittle someone else to state your view.... but instead of a simple "sorry, didn't mean to insult" you want to throw more insults ("Have you ever opened up a Turf Management book?")

Yes, you can make ANYTHING as technical as you want.... but the bottom line is that it doesn't matter what you know, it only matters what you do!.... While I can see that you are successful at what you do (thereby applying what you know), most don't have the discipline to do what they know.... That's not just in this business, but life....

While you obviously feel otherwise, I have never desired to overload my customers with technical information.... as I have learned from owning my own marketing company that the customer is interested in one thing... "What's in it for me?" They only care about the results, not how they are obtained...

I feel that every job (performed to the same degree of quality) is worth "X" dollars, whether you are a first year lco using a 21 walk behind or a 20 year professional using Zs..... whether you are a multi-million dollar company or a solo operator..... whether you are a college grad, or high school dropout... the result is where the value is....

After 20 years in business you have obviously figured out a way to make this business work for you (congratulations), but it is not the only way...

Now I hope we can shake :-).... agree to disagree if needed, and put this thread to rest... Too much thinking for the weekend... lol...

BTW... I like your new Mitsubishi dumper, thanks for sharing that as I am looking into a new truck.... leaning towards the C4500 with a hooklift or switch n go to trade beds.... Maybe a Super Lawn Truck... don't know yet...

Good Luck, Clay

[KenH]

Clay--Of course we can agree to disagree. Im sorry my posts came out as insulting, but I was being more direct than belittling. For example, "Have you ever opened up a Turf Management book?" Was a real question, not sarcasm. Some of these books I read through are so technical I have to read sections 2 or 3 times.

Thanks for the truck compliment...its a workhorse.I too looked at the Swaploader hook hoist, but they wanted 13000 for lift alone, no body.

:drinkup: :drinkup:

[Clay]

Originally posted by KenH
Clay--Of course we can agree to disagree.

:drinkup: :drinkup:


Thank goodness...:-) cheers... :drinkup:

[lavan]

I love this site and it has been helpful and informative. I have been in business for 4yrs and have had nothing but good times. I understand what we all say about the low baller they are all out there. I see them with driving everyday. My personal opion about the low baller is good luck!!!! I can speak for myself but we carry gerneral liabilty, workmans compensation and comprehensive auto insurance. What does this mean? It costs me $7800.00 a year for my insurance. Also means the low balling belly suckers can not bid nor get bonded on jobs that are for cities and for the state. I live in Texas and we do business with a bunch of cities and for Texas Department of Publice Safety ( highway mowing). I am not going to lie to you but you have to step your game up in this industry. This is why I love it so much. The people, advertising and competition. We do not cut many resisdentals much of our business is commercial and I know the competion and there is not many because of the requirements for bidding. I am going to go into residentals this year if I get everything done that I need to get done if not I will be ready next year. I am the guy you need to worry about. I maintain a very expensive lifestyle and I make sure my creew is very well taken care of. I do not mind giving out my secerts. I am the guy who will follow you and take notes while you cut then send my guys over there to get your property. I offer my guys incentives to get more work while they are out cutting. Yes I offer bounty fees!!!!The first question I will ask you and the first words that come out of my mouth when I go to a pre-bid meeting is “this will be our contract” and the second is “ HOW HUNGRY ARE YOU!!!!” I send a challenge out the forum… How hungry are you and how bad do want it….

“DO NOT TALK ABOUT…BE ABOUT IT !!!!!!!!"

[LawnGuy73]

I think that everyone is forgeting one important thing in this post. Yes price matters to most, almost all people. But, you also have to sell yourself to the people too. If a guy goes out and bids a $45 lawn for $20 (this does happen) but does'nt know what the hell hes talking about 9 out of 10 times hes not going to get the property. When guys like myself who have been in the business for years go out and bid a $45 lawn for $45 even $50 and know what were talking about, we will get that account most of the time........but not always.

[LawnMowerMan2003]

I would have to agree with Epic. I'm not sure about commercial accounts, but I've had some residential customers for years. Now I'm pretty sure somebody came along and bid it cheaper a few times, but the customer did not run out and hire them just because they were cheaper. I'm going to try to market customers who do not consider price the one determining factor of who they hire.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Clay
No Thanks!!!.... Not into BS....

This is one of the things I hear all too frequently, not only in this business, but business in general...... "How much can I get out of them?" "Oh man, I got 'em for $$$$"....

Why can't people simply be fair, honest, and try to develop a win-win relationship that will strengthen over time instead of trying to swindle every dime and leave a trail of disgruntled customers that want to take it out on the next guy???

If display of integrity is misguided, I don't mind being lost! :dizzy:

Clay

Well said, Clay. I got into this to get AWAY FROM having to sling BS for a living. I try to give people just a little extra and not try to squeeze every penny out of it. If I make a few grand less a year because of that, so what, it won't change my life. But pushing and squeezing for more will make it darn unpleasant.

I agree it isn't rocket science, but I've found that there really is a lot more to it than many think, even some of us in the business. I still learn new things each year, and get better and more efficient. Treating it like a commodity (something that is the same no matter where you get it) is part of the problem. From observing crews in action, I KNOW I am faster than just about anyone doing the same quality work as I do. Just little time savers I know, as well as good equipment. But I have to be more efficient just to compete with those hiring cheaper labor. You can mow with a ZTR, or you can really PRODUCE. The "science" comes from experience and training.

[HOMER]

lavan,

Thats just plain BS........going in the back door after a man leaves is just what we need more of.

If you live such an expensive lifestyle then why not stick to the big money and leave the guys that cater to the residentials alone. That in my opinion is just about as low as you can get.........go out and get your work honestly..........I flat sure ain't gonna worry about somebody like you stealing my work.

[KerryB]

I have to say that in the beginning I didn't know squat about how to price jobs. I knew very little about the right equipment. Because of LS and the many wonderful people on this forum I am more educated and informed.
I attribute this site for keeping me from becoming a scrub. If more people from my area would join maybe some of the low prices on certain props would be in line.
To my knowledge only 1 other LCO from my area is on LS. I have great respect for Tim and I think he does excellent work.
One of the most important things I have learned from LS is professional etiquette. I do not tread on another's client unless the client calls me.
I did get a call from one of Tim's customers and when I found this out I bid higher so as not to get the job. Maybe some of you think it was fair game since the customer called me but , I was lead to believe that quality was the issue. When I looked at the property and found out who was doing it I knew better. It was all about price. He was looking for a cheaper price. I will not be a low baller.
IMO I have done my part to keep prices up in my area and all due to the great advice from this forum.

[lavan]

i did not mean to step anyone's toes...the reasons why we all went into business is to make money. and if you are not in business to make money you are lying to yourself. i love the industry, the people and the competition. i love the ballers cause i can learn from them as well from others. would some one cut me if they had the chance? yes they would and thats the competition that i love..