KOHLER - Time For Damage Control?

[turfquip]

It's in their best interest to intervene while their reputation and committment to excellence is still perceived as 'strong'

I've noticed what appears to be a trend in the secondary market as resale prices are dropping due to more and more Z's with 25's hitting the market.

I don't know what can be done...I'm not on the front lines and so far, they haven't commissioned me to step in to evaluate...troubleshoot the production process. But threads continually banging on their product is bound to start pissing off dealers (and users).

[osc]

It would be nice to get some of the manufacturer reps to particpate on this forum. I have told several dealers as well as a Great Dane distributor about this forum in hopes that they would tune in.

[Lazer]

I think they're better than they used to be.

As far as having a 'strong' reputation, I think that dissolved 15 years ago when the Japanese engines started hitting the market.

What made Z's affordable (compared to Groundmasters and other out-front mowers) was that they had a lightweight air-cooled "disposable" (2000hr.) engine.

With Z's solidly having commandeered the commerical market from "front-mounts", you'll see the quality, more expensive LC engines make their way onto the Z's.

[Charles]

I have a 23hp command. been great so far. But from the honest post i have read on here. I would never buy a 25. The next lazer I buy will be a kawasaki 26 or the new deisel. I don't know about buying a gas liquid cooled though. Seem to me that alot could go wrong with that and over heating here down south would be a problem.

[Dave]

From what I have seen and heard,briggs did the same to
John Deere,JD back in the eighties used briggs until they had a lot of problems,They asked briggs to straighten out there engines and from what i was told briggs told them if they did not like there engines buy someone elses engine,thats when JD went to kawasaki,I see that they use kohlers for there bottom line of tractors,so I believe eq.manufactures will end up putting kawasaki or diesels on
there machines,I can,t believe kohler has come out with fuel injected engines and they can,t even keep there basic engines together,This is my 2 cents

[turfman99]

Kohler engines are crap. The customer service sucks. They spend all there time denying warranty claims and blaming it on us. We have had three Kohler engine failures this year. All engines with less than 250 hours, and one with 75 hours and hell, one they replaced didn't even make it out of the damn shop before it knocked. We have spent over $ 1,000 just to get the mid mow's back in service while the Kohler junk metal piles up in our shop.

But Kohler reps, (EC Distributing) in Portland, just tell us it's all us. We have called several different Kohler dealers and they all give the same canned story. "Oh, you used the wrong weight oil and thats why it grenaded." What about your asembly lube your freaking morons ?? They tell my ASE certified mechanic he dosn't know what hes doing. I am e mailing corporate Kohler, going to run the next one till it blows, then I am going to sue their ass off in small claims court in my county.

[guntruck]

funny funny..........I was just at my dealer today after purchasing a GD chariot the other day witht the 25 kohler. One of the mechanics today told me EVERY motor that has gone out since hes been there (3 months ) has had to have the head gaskets replaced. He explained it happens so often that he keeps quite a few in stock hehe. Supposedly he said when the head bolts heat up they stretch which creates the blown head gasket, so the new kit just includes the new bolts and same old head gasket and he said not 1 has been back =since. He added that he tends to mill the heaed just a wee bit for some more juice on the turh haha. just thought i'd share that.... CYA

[Evan528]

you guys are scaring the sh** out of me with all these kohlors from hell storys! I unfortunally bought my z master with a kohlor 25 last november about a week before i descuverd lawnsite. I would have only known then what i know now about kohlors no way would i have gotten a kohlor on it.... come to think of it, i think that is all toro z master offers on there full size ztrs. Ive had good luck with this engine (knock on wood!) so far... im praying my luck continues!

[geogunn]

turfequip.com wrote:
"But threads continually banging on their product is bound to start pissing off dealers (and users)."

so ed, or A-1, or whoever, what do you mean by that comment?

are you issuing a warning to posters here?

don't worry, your response to me won't matter. in my small operation I have to depend on my machine. I run a kawsaki with very few problems to report.

GEO

[Charles]

ED, it doesn't matter what kohler says in it defense. We are the ones test driving the equipment under working conditions. The bottom line is how it works in the field every day. It doesn't seem like these contractors are making this stuff up. Kkohler should listen and learn and fix the problems

[turfquip]

Not sure how my original post could be misinterpreted but perhaps I was being a bit...obtuse.

I'll try again.

With recent litigation threatening the very existance of some companies today it seems logical that a manufacturer with a defective product that affects our industry would want to respond publicly - right here, right now.

I'm asking the question...if not to myself...do manufacturers understand the new reality that the internet has created. Do they care?

Manufacturers need to know the old paradigm of isolating problems(complainers) - putting out small fires by poo-pooing customer concerns may no longer be an option.

Would anyone care to acknowledge, expand, improve or refute that last statement?

Oh, and GEOGUN please don't confuse me with other LS members - past, present or future. I'm Ed from turfquip and there's no "e" in turfquip. I'm in at a 45 degree angle and yes, I've been accused of being A-1, Stone, Nilsson, and a half dozen other unsavory characters...hehe




[Edited by turfquip dot com on 09-13-2000 at 12:14 PM]

[geogunn]

thanks ed--I now understand your point.

GEO

[Bobby]

I've often wondered if manufactures monitor this site. Kohler would'nt dare respond. It'd be like throwing bait to the sharks.
Mabey it's time for a boycott.
Attn Bob Walker; Please consider using Kawasaki's on your fine machines. ( I am well pleased with my MT42. All but the 25Kohler Command)

[turfquip]

I disagree. They would be foolish NOT to respond because, although undeclared, a boycott is already underway. How many new machine buyers who peruse this forum would choose that engine when set beside the alternatives?

Yes sir. This is where the rubber hits the road. We'll know the answers soon. Does Kohler read this forum? Does Kohler care what you guys think? Do LawnSite members constitute a meaningful market 'segment'? Is LawnSite a useful venue for communications with company officials or is it insignificant, a flash in the pan....forget it and it'll go away.

It's a matter of perception really.

[Eric ELM]

Even though I've had good luck with my 22 Hp Kohler, I didn't get one on my new Chopper. I wanted more HP and after hearing of all the troubles with the 25 HP Kohler, I decided the Yanmar diesel was the way to go. I ended up with even more HP and less fuel consumption than a gas engine. I have had great luck with the other Yanmar engines I've owned and the money saved on fuel will easily pay the extra cost for the engine, plus it will out last 3 or 4 gas engines. :)

[John DiMartino]

I have a POS 25hp also,I am baffled at how this engine even made it past the developement stages,let alone into production.It takes big ones to call it a commercial engine when any cheap residential throw away engine will outlast it.these things cant even get there first oil change without having the heads off.This is literally a joke,i stopped today at my dealer so he could check out the low power on my 25hp,again-its only got 125hrs on it,its burning oil,had headgaskets done,lifters tick like crazy,smokes when it starts,has no power.I am fed up with it.They had 3 CV25 commands brand new on the shelf,and do an average of 20-30 head gakets sets a month.I had the updated gaskets on mine,they still blew,and every one does it.I noticed that Kawis are being put in DC's more as of 2000.The only thing i am happy about is this must be costing kohler their shirts,i am glad since it has put me thru so much aggravation with a brand new mower.I should have at least 2 troublefree years with it,but instead ive had nothing but problems.This engine is a boat anchor,drain the oil and put a hook on it,thats all its good for as far as im concerned,it cant be trusted and depended upon to do a weeks worth of work without major repairs.---I feel better now that I've vented.

[Edited by John DiMartino on 09-13-2000 at 12:15 AM]

[Bobby]

turfquip
I think they should address it here also. Unless they are ready to change thier possition, they have allready spoken. Not here, but to the many individuals with the same problems. Kind of like firestone blaiming Ford for the tire problems. (It's the operators.) Funny how these lawn guys can run Hondas and Kawi's the wrong way for years and have no problems.

[Administrator]

Very good point Ed.

I wonder how these BIG manufacturers perceive LawnSite.com

Right now I see LawnSite.com in its development stages. My goal is 10,000 registered members. Lets see how much attention we get then.

[guntruck]

ok on the ealier post i put up i stated how the dealer told me that head gskets blow like crazy on these........well........let me tell you my bro and i have put 2 hours YES 2 HOURS on our chariot of course with the 25 kohler. The engine started smoking lightly and was deiseling when shut off. After observasion he says the front cylinder was weak and the rings were passing oil. He called kohler they said it may be the head gaskets ( the smoking) B*** S***!!!!!!!!!! they told me after disassembly if its the rings i will get a new motor. Now if it is or isnt if they pull off the motor im gopnna see about maybe gettin a nother motor put on there like a kaw....... just hope that maybe i can do it.... CAN YOU BELEIVE IT 2 DARN HOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Runner]

This must only happen with the Command motors, I take it. I have one of the old Magnum motors, and it's been a great motor for 6 years now. My Lazer EPS has a Command, but with a different head setup (fuely heads) on it so hopefully I won't have any trouble with that. I only have about 300 hrs. on it now, and it runs like a champ! Maybe I better pray tonight and thank God for that.

[toddman35]

I think someone should send this thread to Kohler.

[Eric ELM]

I sent them a link, now lets see if they respond and help you guys out in any way. I sure hope they do.

[eggy]

Well, I might get tossed out of lawn site but I own two kohlers one is a 25hp and I am very pleased. appx 300 hours on the 25hp and not one problem ever, day in day out this is its first season and it takes a beating and still time after time...powers the tiger well. I wonder if some of the mower/engine combos might be wrong...and some paired up right..I think I will buy another 25hp kohler...crazy I guess......I see a lot of kohler engines running around here, so yes we will hear some problems occur but it is probably due to the fact that around here there is 3 kohlers to 1 other brand running, hence the chance to hear about more problems. I hope you guys find a brand you enjoy operating as much as I do kohler.

[Edited by eggy on 09-14-2000 at 04:32 AM]

[Keith]

Hey eggy. I have had no problems with my Kohler 25....yet. It has 500 hours right now and I hope it keeps right on rollin. I bought mine before I knew all of this. I really would buy another, no questions asked if they had not had so many failures. But a reliable 25 Kohler seems to be the exception not the rule.

I have a hard time believing so many people are abusing these engines to cause these problems, especially under 100 hours.

I, too, would like to hear from Kohler regarding this.

Like I said before I would have no problem buying a new Lazer or Dixie with a Kohler if they did not have this problem. Afterall the Lazer/Kohler option is cheaper and lighter than the LC Lazers. Maybe it is time to for Exmarks and others to look into other options.

If Kohler representitives read this, please id the cause of the head gasket failure. Is it gasket material? High compression coupled with high heat or what?

[MOW ED]

I have to jump in on this one too as I "WAS" the all too unproud owner of one of the 25's from hell. Mine was in a Walker and I had all types of problems with it as many of you know if you have been on this site for a while. The only satisfaction I got was from Walker after the first problem. I know that Bob Walker is aware of these problems with the 25's and I am sure that they got worse after my experiences.
I also wrote Kohler and was almost spanked in written form for complaining about my experiences.

Unfortunatly we don't buy enough of these things to matter but this forum WILL get the word out to anyone that cares to listen.

I hope Kohler is up on current affairs and draws a parallel to the problems that Firestone is having because when quality control is gone and customers get together things happen.

I would love to contact every small engine repair shop and see how many of these 25hp's have been in for repair. Mayby the Government should be involved.

[Bobby]

I did'nt think you could go silent on this one MowEd. Some of these guys are having major problems at five hours. If my engine has a major malfunction at five hours, somebody is getting me a new one. No repairs on a new engine accepted.
I believe this forum is representative of the overall green industry's attitude. Like turfquip said, the internet is changing things. We will hold manufacturers accountable by hitting them in the wallet. It's the only language some of them speak.
A friend and dealer told me once he was attending a briggs certification class. He asked why did briggs paint the blocks of their engines. Siteing heat as the main cause of failure. The briggs rep snikered and said (your selling parts arent you?)
This attitude led to the briggs fall off.
So they regrouped a few years later and made a deal with somebody and came up with the vanguard. Not a bad engine, but the damaged reputation still lives on.
So Kohler, your at a crossroad. You make the call. Were waiting.

[southside]

Bobby,
Bob Walker visits this site. I asked him about it at a field day over here.You might be suprised to see
some of the other manufacturers lurking around this site as
well.

Karl

[turfman99]

Pissing off the dealers?? If there damn products were any good, we would not be pissed off customers asking for service.

Your kidding right ??

[Cutter1]

I understand the frustrations with the Kohler engines. I too have a Kohler that runs terrible. The only thing to do is to learn from your mistakes and move on. Trade them in and take the hit!! Tell your dealers that you will go else where if you don't get me out of this!! I'm sure I will get ripped apart about writing this, but enough whining about it!! We have all learned a lesson here, DON'T BUY KOHLER.

[Runner]

Southside had mentioned that there may be other manufacturers lurking on here as well. Well, I know atleast 1 gentleman from Exmark who gets on quite frequently. He works in Customer service.

[Mowin4cash]

I had no idea so many guys were having problems with their Kohlers. I've had a 22 Command for 4 years now with 1100 hrs on it. Only problem was a burned coil which they replaced without question. I now have a new 23 Command and haven't had any problems with it either. A buddy of mine has a 20 Magnum on his Chopper and has over 4000 hrs on it, never a problem, burns no oil. I just don't get it. Could the problem be specifically to the 674 cc block?

[landscaper3]

Like my post on this we updated all our Walker mowers that had the 20hp and 25 hp both over 1000hours. we just updated to a 1998 25hp 48"GHS and the new 26hp EFI GHS do to increased business, I cant tell ya what the problems are but I love my kohler motors.

[turfquip]

Again a simple misunderstanding. Imagine you are a dealer with a hundred thousand dollars worth of floor planned Z's with 25's. The word is spread across the country that that particular engine is trouble. End of the year comes and those units are still sitting there collecting dust. Dealers are pissed....but at who? Not at you guys - you have a right to demand products that work. Scenario two....contractors "trade up" their Z's with 25's for other equipment. Dealer uses blue book trade-in values as a basis...market becomes saturated with Z 25's. Prices drop...dealer takes the hit?

There's three things we would do well to remember here.

1) Kohler is a strong company with a history and reputation for quality products. Hundreds of thousands of Kohler air cooled units are in service every single day - the vast majority of which live out their anticipated lives in full; performing their assigned duties.

2) Let's stay focused. The engine we are concerned about right now is the Command 25; currently being sold on many top-of-the-line zero turn riders. Our specific concern with this engine is it's propensity to blow head gaskets prematurely...frequently with less than 10 hours of running time. Resulting repairs by Kohler Factory Authorized Service Centers are often inadequate, with the engine no longer performing 'factory fresh'.

We are not talking about Kohler Magnums, CV14's, Command 22's, or the engine on your grampa's tiller.

3) Let's remain dignified. We are seeking acknowledgement by rational, intelligent business minded people who would begin to recognize the power which this forum is able to generate. To this end, I would highly encourage...even insist that any of you who have used base remarks and lurid generalizations about the manufacturer in question to return to your earlier posts(this thread only) and edit out such remarks.

In case you don't realize it, there is an excellent chance this thread would receive additional press exposure. Let's create an environment that is worthy and conducive to constructive interchange.

[Edited by turfquip dot com on 09-15-2000 at 12:13 PM]

[Eric ELM]

Tomorrow evening, I'll be doing my 62nd oil change on my 22HP Kohler on my oldest Chopper. It will have 3,100 hours on it by tomorrow night and it has been the best air cooled engine I've ever owned. I sure wish everyone could have the same luck with the 25HP Kohlers. :)

[Edited by Eric ELM on 09-15-2000 at 10:18 PM]

[landscaper3]

congrads eric see those motors do last!!!!

[jaclawn]

This is what the power of the internet is all about. Had it not been for this forum, I probally would have never heard of these troubles. (Not just these problems, but others as well). Perhaps one would talk with a few other local contractors and hear of 1 or 2 problems, and not think anything of it. Hearing of all the troubles in this forum only represents a portion of the problems, what about all the users that have had troubles and are not online?

Would a dealer be likely to tell you not to purchase a machine with one of the engines in question? It would be in his interest to not inform you of the problems. Like turfquip said, if he has a shworoom full of machines with the engine in question, would he try to push an alternitive on you? Probally not.

While I am not currently in the market for any equipment, if I were, I would have seroius considerations about purchasing a machine with the mentioned engine. If it had not been for this forum, I probally would have never heard of the troubles.

Kohler has been around for a very long time, and has manafactured many engines that have run long and hard hours. I know of some pretty old ones that are still purring along like when they were new. Hopefully they get this problem taken care of, and it does not hurt their reputation as a leading engine manafactuer.

[MOW ED]

Now turfquip I hope I am understanding you correctly but you want us to edit our posts to change to a more favorable opinion of Kohler?
If you are saying that I have broadly generalized or made "lurid" remarks I have to respond to you that Kohler (a multimillion dollar corporation with endless resources) had multiple chances with me (a one person operation)to fix a problem that developed from THEIR end, not mine. I recieved little satisfaction from this company and when I complained about the service I recieved, I was made to feel like it was my fault.
I had problems with this specific Command 25 from aprox 120 hours until just before I sold it with 650 hours.
It had scored cylinders cracked rings, head gaskets, coils, intake gaskets and I found out that after I sold it, the next owner had overheating problems after 25 hours. Kohler would NOT replace this engine for me.

Some of the problems occured during the generous warranty period and were covered, some were not. What wasnt covered was the time and money I now had to spend to rent or borrow mowers while my machine was constantly in the shop.

I finally had to spend 3500 to buy a back-up mower and YES it has a Kohler on it.

So if you want to get mad you can take a lesson from me, I get mad when money is taken out of my pocket and I recieve no satisfaction in the least from a large company. The 2000.00 or so it would have "cost" Kohler to replace this engine for me could have been a gesture that brought them unbelievable praise from myself in this forum as well as in the circles I travel in.

I want to reiterate that this is my opinion based on my experiences. I have purchased another Walker mower with a Kohler engine but only because economics dictates. If by the grace of God my company gets bigger I will upgrade to diesels.
The thing to remember is the pen can be mightier than the sword. Take it for what you will but I will not change my post.

[Lazer]

$2000.00? Please! YOU can buy those for $13-1400.00

Kohler builds them for less than a G; then add couple hours install.

I doubt THEIR actual cost would be much more than $1000.00.

[MOW ED]

Lazer,
I know they do but the thing just doesn't jump into the mower and I sure as hell ain't putting it in myself. I don't know about your mechanics but these guys do pretty well.
Mayby it has to do with some companies keeping them in business???????

[Lazer]

I wrote:

"then add a couple hours install."

I don't know how much the dealership would charge for that, but I assume it would be $150-200.00

Either way -- I'M AGREEING WITH YOU -- Kohler could keep themselves a customer AND make the problem go away for a drop in the bucket.

[MOW ED]

EXACTLY,

If the 25's are not the problem then what is the difference if Kohler drops a few new ones into the problem mowers.

But I am thinking that out of the thousands that have been produced a few of us have access to this forum and the other pepole don't.

I think this engine is junk. Period. Some guys have had good luck with them but I believe more often than not there has been problems.

I could be a great ambassador for a company if they treat me right but if they treat me bad then I will speak my mind.

[Bobby]

MowEd, I strongly agree with your last sentence.

[turfman99]

turfquip,

your dead wrong on a couple of things. First off, we are talking about a variety of engines, not just one model. From what I read, it is virtually all the Kohler line.

Second, change our remarks so we don't piss off the manufactuer ?? They can kiss my ass. They have already cost me over $ 2,000 extra dollars they will not stand up to on their products.

Read the thread. Read the comments about how the dealers and Kohler respond to customer complaints and questions. Virtually the same response to all of them. Yeah, hell we're just all spread out over the country and got together to coordinate and slam Kohler.

Kohler engines are in virtually every manfactuers line. There's a reason. LOW PRICE TO THE MANUFACTUER. They got them selves down so low and did what ever it took to get the engines in those products. THEY SOLD THE ENGINES TO THE MANUFACTUER. THEY DID NOT SELL THEM TO US.We are not their customer, the manufactuer is. WHAT DO THEY CARE ABOUT OUR SATISFACTION?? They care about if the maufactuer will buy the engines for the next run. Warranty claims denial methods must be course offered by the engine maufactuer to dealers and distributors.

We are going to become a Kawasaki dealer, just to get away from this dependence on a poor product.

Bob Walker visits this site ??? Bob Walker, if you continue to put Kohler motors in your machines, I will stop buying them. I own 5 now. I need a least one or two more in the spring. Your welcome to contact me anytime.

Toro, I all ready will not buy anymore of your mid mows because of the Kohler motors. Going to buy Ryan the next time out. Toro blew me off worse than Kohler.

All manfactuers: Consider start treating these people on here like business people. They may be one or two machine operators, but that is the bread and butter of your sales across the county. They want a dependable product.

[John DiMartino]

Turfman,that was well said,along with Mow ED.When I was at the dealership,the Kohlers with problems were almost every 25 Command they sold,about 1 in 10 Command 22's blow gaskets too.The Command 6Hp vacuum motor,the one that comes on the trac-vac is a POS also,at least until 2000 so they say.I am also bent out of shape about the repair procedure,they pop on mew headgaskets like they are spark plugs.Most of these engines had been run 1-50 hrs with blown gaskets,due to not knowning they were bad or needing to finish a job.I bet no one checks those heads for flatness.Or the block too,if this were a customer paying job they would sell a head too at the minimum,possibly a motor if there is enough warpage.I also have a problem with a dirty,cluttered,dusty repair shop opening my new engine and doing work to it that it shouldnt need.I feel we are owed the same clean conditions that the factory has while they work on our engines.Do you think for one minute that any of these shops are 1/3 as clean and prepped as the factory?I doubt it.Here's the bottom line for me-At this point the only way Kohler could satify me is to replace my engine.It will never last as long as it should,being opened up at 75hrs.The peices of trash in the oil have gotten the best of something because ever since it was opened its burned oil.It is defective if it needs anything at those low hrs,that alone is enough to replace it.Maybe kohler should pay more attention to quality assembly,R&D,and tighten production tolerances.If my work were as bad as kohlers product I would be out of a job and a Pt lawn business tommorow.No denying would save my accounts or job.

[turfquip]

MOWED, if you care to, reread my previous post. Did I ask you to change your opinion of Kohler? No. I asked ... perhaps a little too forcefully that base remarks and lurid generalizations about Kohler be edited out. Specifically the phrase "KOHLER SUCKS" I felt was inappropriate FOR THIS THREAD. But be assured, the phrase doesn't hurt me and I'm certainly not offended.

The reason I suggested it was the possibility that this thread would receive national attention and be quoted word for word. It's like this...when you're trying to bring a party to the table; humble themselves and make an accounting i.e. begin to explore solutions to the problem, you don't begin the process with insults. Again, negotiations don't start like this. That's all. As for your opinion, it's your's to keep, change whatever. I really don't care. If you don't agree with my approach, I don't care about that either. Like Nilsson and so many others before, if you guys can't handle my commentary, see no redeemable value therein - I'll keep my mouth shut. LawnSite can remain a place to 'blow off steam' after a hard day instead of a place where companies can begin to be held accountable for their actions. This thread will slowly sink to the bottom...out of mind, out of site.

Another thing. I am not a defender of Kohler. I don't sell their products and have absolutely nothing to gain from any party for having started this thread. My web site is a resource for sellers to market used equipment.

A lot of you are passionate about this subject - and you have every right to be. It's your hard earned money...and don't go around thinking ole Ed from turfquip don't know where you are coming from cause folks, that dog won't hunt. I understand the mowing business.

Again, I asked for restraint and a dignified approach as we await their response. Perhaps that's too much to ask.

[Bobby]

Ed, keeping the discusion proffesional and using restraint is the way it should be.
However, as I mentioned before, Kohler knows full well about the problems. They know about Lawnsite.com. They know about this thread. Their silence is their answer.
For many years, the insurance industry took our money and raised our premiums every year. Hurricane Andrew comes along and they say they are going bankrupt. Are they out of money? No, they just don't want to separate themselves from it.
Like I said,apparently the only language Kohler speaks is money.
If I treated my customers the way they treat us, the (end user)I would be fired.

[Charles]

Turfquip, Ithink you are taking the right approach. You have good informative info on the lawn business. Companies do not respond to insults and generalizations. Specific unemotional well written to the point details is what the should respond to. Nillson bailed when the going got rough. Don't do the same. Alot of agree on certain things and alot of us don't. Alot of us are calm and cool and alot of us aren't. Thats what make a forum interesting. It's hard to keep your emotions out of a subject like this when you think a big company doesn't care about you and is not reponding to your needs. But emotional name calling is not going to help the situation. You would expect a large company to try and shoot for perfection in their product. But we got too many complaints on here to believe that kohler is turning out a quality product and service as a whole. They need to try and cut down on the % of defective motors. Upgrade their service department. Not everyone is unhappy with them. But too many of us are for them to be satisfied with the status quo.
Turfquip, just develop a thicker skin than nillson and keep churning out the post.

[turfman99]

Ok, since all you had to do was call me out on that I would have responded directly.If you feel that in your opinion was a not qualified comment, to you I apologize.

I don't know about you, but when a manufactuer does not respond in a positive manner to an end user of their product, (10 units)that is a major problem.

When over 75 % of my small engine fleet is powerd by Kohler, when I feel my parts and repair bill is too high for the number of units.

When that stuff hits the road, the mechanic and I wonder, which one and when ??.

John specifically hit on another cause of failure, relaed to the heads. If the head is warped, or the cylinder came out of round ( bore alignment), or one spot or anpther go too hot during the head gsket failure, you can be assured at mininmum, that the head gasket will go again, or the rod may go, or whatever.

[MOW ED]

I am certain that you aren't directing your definition of lurid comments at me since I haven't find the words Kohler su@#s in my posts in this thread.
I admit that I have been a "basher" of Kohler in sorts in previous posts.If someone has this opinion I am not going to disagree or agree with the way anyone feels. But people know what I think.

I think this topic is a very personal one for all involved and if people are passionate about something its hard to put inflection in your voice when you are typing it as text.
If people are upset of have a certain opinion certain words can be used to get a point across with a little harder edge. Personally the word "sucks" is not a terrible word but more of a expression of frustration. Many worse expletives could have been used. As for editing a post, I remain under the same opinion - no way.

I certainly feel for you since you seem to be in the business of selling equipment and you also can be effected in your pockets in the long run.

I am thankful for being able to participate in this discussion and hope that more people feel free to jump in and share how they feel. Have a nice day.

[Edited by MOW ED on 09-17-2000 at 05:17 PM]

[paul scholten]

To: LawnSite.com Members,

From: Kohler Engines

We have recently been made aware of this web site and would like to respond to the statements made regarding the Kohler Command 25-hp engine. First, we agree that there have been problems and have worked hard to correct those problems. For those of you that experienced a problem we apologize and regret any inconvenience.

Kohler has built its reputation by producing reliable and quality engines for over 80 years, and our work force strives to do this everyday. As with any complex mechanical device, our engines do at times encounter problems. Our goal is to produce engines with zero defects, however when a problem is identified we analyze the problem, find the solution and implement the appropriate corrective action, whether it is a recall or field fix. Notification is given to our OEM customers and distribution network and we then work with our customers to repair or replace engines in the field. We do stand behind our products and feel one of our strong points is our service network and the ability to react to field problems when they occur. The following paragraph provides a summary of the recent problem we have had with our 25hp engine and what has been done to correct it.

The Command 25, overall has been a very successful product for Kohler with the horizontal shaft version being introduced in 1993 and vertical shaft version in 1994. This new model enabled our OEM customers to provide the commercial mowing market with additional horsepower to power larger decks and add-on accessories. As you have noted though, we have encountered problems with the 25hp engine. In late 1997 through early 1998, we experienced a head gasket problem caused by our gasket vendor changing his tolerances without advising us. This problem caused poor performance, high oil consumption, smoking, or fouled plugs. We developed a field fix, which consisted of a new gasket. It is an unfortunate reality in these situations that it takes time for the problem to be identified and a solution engineered. During that time the service network is unaware of the problem and replaces the defective gaskets with defective gaskets. We know many of you were frustrated by this experience and so were we. Because of the field’s poor taste for the experience we have redesigned the entire joint to give an extra measure of assurance and believe that the Command 25hp engine now has the best head joint in the industry.

The improvement and corrective action for existing units was passed along to the field through our distributors and dealers through a series of service bulletins and training schools. We also worked closely with our OEM accounts to identify existing equipment which could be suspect and to repair those engines that had defective head gaskets. Our recent warranty claim records indicate that the fix has worked and the problem is behind us.

We welcome your input and experience and encourage you to please contact us at email address kohler.engines.service@kohlerco.com. In addition, we have included on the kohlerengines.com web site, a more detailed explanation of the corrective actions, along with the service bulletins that were sent to the field on this subject. Access the details by clicking on this link http://www.kohlerengines.com/lawnsite The head gasket problem has been resolved, and we are committed to supplying you with a quality product.

Sincerely,

Paul Scholten
Manager – Service and
Technical Publications

Cameron Litt
Twin Cylinder Product
Manager

[John DiMartino]

Paul,thank you for the response,I am happy to see someone from such a large corporation respond to a us here at Lawnsite.I purchased one fo your CV 25's on a Dixie Chopper on 4/2000.The engine was built in mid 99.I have had the headgaskets go out at 66 hrs.I didnt know the gaskets had blown initially,I check the oil every time i use it,it used about 3 quarts in 4 or 5 hrs before i brought it in.The mechanic said mine had all the latest updates,and ever since the failure it still burns oil,not nearly as much,but i feel a new engine should burn any oil in 25 hrs,it will go from the top of range to bottom in 25 hrs.It now has 148 hrs on it,I have changed the oil/filter 3 times-the dealer once.This engine also ticks from lifters often,especially if the oil has over 25 hrs on it.Finally it is not very powerful for a 25hp engine-it always sounds like it is missing on a cylinder and RPmM's fall very quickly in thick grass or on a hill.I maintain a fleet consisting of over 50 air-cooled 4 cycle small engines,i have never had any problems in the warranty period until this one,even my cheap briggs flathead engines didnt burn as much oil as this one.My dealer says it runs like a normal CV25,and to run it more and see if the oil consumption slows or stops.I feel the engine is the heart of a machine,and quite honestly i feel its a weak engine and not up to the standards that i thought Kohler had.In my fleet i have only 6 kohlers,most of them are the old K series cast iron engines.All my new equipment has or will have diesel engines,if they are available.

[turfman99]

Paul and Cameron,

I want to echo Johns thanks for a response to our problems.That is the most response and more positive than I have had in the past.I have been one of Kohlers most critical posters, simply because of the customer service issue.

Now when something positive happens I will also post that. Last week, one of our Command 20's broke the crank shaft. 640 hours. Took it to the dealer ( Fisher Implement in McMinnville OR)and they found the problem, got the warranty process going and rented us a demo unit.This dealer just went to the top of the dealer list.

Keeping good service records by us was a key factor here.

I appreciate your response's and hope you can put the word in the right spots about customer service

[tazz]

THERE SEMS TO BE ALOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE 25HP DOES THIS SEEM TO BE THE ONLY ENGINE WITH MAJOR PROBLEMS

[John DiMartino]

The 25HP seems to be the only one with a tremendous problems.Until now i had good experiences only with Kohler.Paul still hasnt addressed the oil burning issues not related to the headgasket,the smart spark,or the lifters,and the lower power issues.I do commend them for responding though.

[thelawnguy]

My guess is the spark modules are overheating, based on the number of complaints on ZTR machines. If you experience multiple module failure try relocating it to a remote area where it gets some ventilation. Bolted to the side of the shroud is fine for a WB but not for an enclosed engine.

[turfman99]

We have had a couple of spark module failures in the last couple of days. High time machines, the plastic seal on the back separates from the side and mositure gets in and everything goes then.

[Vibe Ray]

I don't know about you guys but that response sounded like the the old "copy and paste" method was used!!! Except for maybe first paragraph.....You follwing me?? Oh well, I'm not sure what I mean either so don't ask.

[KirbysLawn]

Very interesting thread. I have a 22hp Kohler on my Chariot and I also get a loud lifter tick sometimes. I agree that the letter reminds me of the response I got from for when myself and others contacted them about a defect in our truck. Funny thing is we all compaired our letters and they all were basically the same. Yea, I guess we are hard to please.

Hey Kohler, if you know what the problem is and have NEW 25hp engines that you know are good why not exchange them for the defective engines? This would allow your customers to get back to work, you could fix the engines in question, and all would be happy (well maybe not you guys).

I was looking to buy a new mower from Great Dane but not until they offer another engine besides the 25hp Command, the 23hp Kaw is going to be the choice I'm sure. I can't afford to take a chance.

Ray

EDIT: Attention Kohler, it looks like this is one of the most viewed threads in Lawnsite history, it your name and rep.

[Edited by KirbysLawn on 10-13-2000 at 03:47 AM]

[John DiMartino]

Ray,try oil-changes at 25 hrs.It helped with mine-it still does it,but not as much or as bad.try to note if it has more than 25 hr on the oil when it does it.I had been going 50 hrs ,but i have went to 25,even though its costing me more.I am working with Kohler to resolve my 25hp problems now,hopefully i will get a new engine.