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Mikal21502
05-12-2003, 03:28 PM
I have a customer whom has a drainage problem in the back portion of their yard and also has alot of moss in the area. The area is also shaded from trees. The customer wanted to know if their is a way to neutralize the moss and if how? Plus would it be better to kill it off or keep it because of the poor drainage? Help me out please on what to do!

Got Grass?
05-12-2003, 05:51 PM
Try convincing your customer on trimming up &/or removing some of thoes trees. That may solve the problem right there. If not you may need to re grade &/or install some dranage pipe.

Thats about the only permanent fix. Then you could sell him on seeding the area & the grass would actually come up.

If he just wants the moss gone, that is possible but a big bare spot will never look all that great & is only a temporary duct tape type fix.

Lawn-Scapes
05-12-2003, 11:20 PM
Aerate the area heavily, add some lime (40lbs/1000) and seed. Repeat the process for a couple of years. Aerate 2x each year. Thinning the trees would help too.

onemancrew
05-12-2003, 11:22 PM
Go with the lime!!!!!!

Mikal21502
05-13-2003, 12:08 AM
thanks

green with envy
05-13-2003, 08:57 AM
Why treat with lime ??? What is the Ph ?? If it's not low the lime will do nothing. It sounds like the problem is moisture and shade.
Lime will not help either of those....:p

timturf
05-13-2003, 09:14 AM
YES, do a soil test!!!!!!!!! DON'T TREAT WITH LIME WITHOUT A SOIL TEST!!!!!!!!!!!

pH could be > than 6.5!!!!!!!!! I have several lawns with some moss and ph is greater than 6.5. I did a soil test.

GroundKprs
05-13-2003, 12:35 PM
Mosses are just lower forms of plant life. They will not be able to compete with healthy growing grass. If you can improve the turf, the moss will disappear. If grass will not do well in this location (too wet, too shady, other??), consider another groundcover. Go to <a href="http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/publicat.htm">Turf Publications</a> and read AY-17. Other useful publications there too.

Moss is not the problem, it is just a symptom of a problem. Real problem is environment that allows moss to grow. Have taken over a poorly maintained site with moss scattered all through lawn. All moss was gone in 3 months with just proper care of turf. Have had other sites where it is too shady or wet for grass to survive, and you will have moss unless problem(s) are corrected.

Mikal21502
05-15-2003, 01:16 AM
Well I told the man about cutting back the trees or removal of them, drainage system ( some other company do it.), regrading, or lime, nevertheless, the guy is a real stubborn sob he says, "I've lived her for 40 something yrs and never had to do any of that!" Man, I was going to say"well that is why you have a bog in your back yard" then he starts to tell me well there used to be a spring back there and i said it still is back there. I don't think that the man has too many yrs left in him and doesn't want to spend the money so I'm only left to the only option of spreading lime.

ProMo
05-15-2003, 09:07 AM
i remember seeing a product at lesco called demoss not sure how or if it works

timturf
05-16-2003, 02:50 PM
don't spread lime without a SOIL TEST!!!!!!

Moss is no indication of soil ph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without soil test, you don't know ph, and if you know ph, which lime are you going to apply, dolimitic or calicitic?

Lime applied when not needed or wrong lime if needed only throw's soil chemistry father out of whack!!!!!!!

Groundkprs and green with evey are helping you, BUT EVEN THOUGH YOU ASK FOR ADVICE, you refuse to follow!!!!!!!!!!!

Take a soil test, We like to see the results in 2 weeks, base saturation of k,mg,ca,na,h, available ppm of p2o5 soil ph, buffer index c.e.c. and labs recommendations.

Doing anying for this client without a soil test is not proffesionalism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

looking for the results around june 1st

tim

green with envy
05-16-2003, 03:50 PM
Tim Turf is right. Last year we had a customer with moss in many places. Lime right? WRONG !! We did a soil test and the Ph was at 8.5 !! The last thing we want to do is kick it up more. We had to put down Sulfur to get it in balance.

Amending the Ph in soil is a slow process it will not happen overnight. Not a quick fix.

timturf
05-16-2003, 04:20 PM
Thanks green with envy, NOW what are you going to do Mikal21502?????????

green with envy
05-16-2003, 04:38 PM
I am disturbed by how many "Pros" put down lime as routine!!!

I am by no means a "doctor of dirt" but it should be common sense!!

Enviro Green
05-16-2003, 07:12 PM
Green with Envy,

I agree many do put down lime without a soil test.

This has been a common practice for many years, and in more cases than not it has been right, much like seeing certain weeds can indicate a low pH, but those weeds can also indicate a low phosphorous availability in the soil, which can be caused by low pH, and liming alone may not fix the problem.

It is a case of understanding the science and the symptoms of the problem. The soil test will put science to work on solving you problem instead of just a shot in the dark.

EG

cantoo
05-16-2003, 09:52 PM
timturf, my guess is now he is going to disapear.
The guy said the customer (the guy who pays or doesn't pay for this work) doesn't want to spend the money to correct it so I would bet that Mikal will not do much of anything. I know we all have these customers they are hoping for a quick cheap fix. You and I both know this isn't going to happen most times.
He can only do what the customer is willing to pay for or he can walk away.

timturf
05-17-2003, 10:18 AM
The first thing he should have done is told the customer he need to do a soil test.

that's being professional!!!!!!!

cantoo
05-19-2003, 12:14 AM
Darn, I'm a scrub again.
Somebody's got to write a handbook for us slow guys.

basic lawn
05-27-2003, 09:03 AM
There is a product in the common market (essentially iron) that kills exsisting moss. That product does not prevent moss from coming back.

SWD
05-27-2003, 09:11 PM
The easiest, cheapest, way to kill moss is with Dawn Ultrex antibacterial dish soap in a spray rig. About 2 tblespoons/100fsqft and you will kill it with essentially no phytotoxicity to the turf.

mower_babe
06-07-2003, 03:33 PM
OK GUYS - Once it has been determined that LIME is what the soil needs...

1)Is it true that it takes 1 1/2 - 2 years to see any effects?

AND

2)Is it true that it is virtually impossible to overlime?


I have a job that is shaded, underfed (no treatments for years) and poor drainage. Lots of moss and what is not moss - is weeds. I am supposed to improve the overall appearance - trees, lawn, and landscape. In speaking with the subcontractor (been in business long time, first year that I am using him) - I mentioned the improvements that we will be doing. I asked him about a soil test and he laughed and said that was unnecessary and he could tell by looking at it that it needed a heavy liming. I asked how heavy and he said that you can never overlime a yard. I even point blank asked him about 40lbs/1000 and he reiterated that the lawn can be white and it will never hurt. This is the same guy that told me that no chemical will kill wild violets (one of many weeds there.)

I have not started this job, b/c going to soil test this weekend first. We are going to chemically treat the weeds, trim trees, dethach to remove moss, aerate, slit seed and amend/fertilize the soil. Other projects that are planned are a large fountain, more landscaping, lighting and drainage improvements.

I usually stick to mowing and trimming and I am not very familar with chemicals and weed/feed business, but after browsing the posts, beginning to think this guy is a real doorknob.

kickin sum grass
06-07-2003, 04:35 PM
fire him asap and get another that knows what he is doing. Just cuz he has been in business doesn't mean he is good. He must have a high turnover rate with unsatisfied customers.
1. YES - u can over lime and shoot the ph out the roof. Then it will take years of sulfur to correct it. You can not put near as much sulfur down in one year as you can lime. and yes it does take a while for the lime to start working.
2. If the moron knew much about weed control he would know that you can control wild violets. not as easy as dandelions. He might not be able to control them but it is possible.

timturf
06-10-2003, 09:38 AM
kickin sum grass is correct!!!!!!!!!!!

Your right with soil test first!

When you get results, correst soil problems!

never more than 50lbs per 1000 of lime on surface, and wait 3 months between applications.

Will take @ 4-6 months to start see liming results!

If you rototill soil 6 inches deep, you can add all the lime at one time to correct soil ph, but make sure it is well incorporated in soil.

depending on mg base saturation, will depend on if you use dolomitic or calacitic lime

tim

lordohturf
06-11-2003, 03:11 PM
I hope you didn't rush out to buy the lime. If you did, you may
have to turn around and buy twice as much sulfur to correct the problem you just caused! Listen to TimTurf and GreenEnvy.
Spend the $10 for a soil test. If it calls for lime, then put it down.

Moss: Usually grows in shaded areas with damp soil and poor air circulation. High Ph levels can also contribute. Sulfur is the corrective action for high Ph!

If the guy doesn't want to spend the money then explain maybe he should get used to the moss problem.

lordohturf
06-11-2003, 03:24 PM
To carry this to the next level, why bother?

So many times people try to grow grass where it just won't work.
Early spring plant seed, it comes in, trees get foilage, grass dies, repeat cycle again next year.

This is a little off the subject (sorry) but, why not turn that moss ridden, heavily shaded, non grass growing area into a planting bed that supports growth of material which do well in heavy shade?

English Ivy, Pachesandra, Myrtle, Euonymous and I'm sure there's more in different parts of the country.

If nothing else, moss is green and you don't have to cut it! Maybe we should just get used to it!

mower_babe
06-12-2003, 12:10 AM
Good point - We are not going to fight the shade on one side. We are putting in a 3 tiered landscaped area with a few shade loving plants in a 85' X 35' section. In another section, we will be putting in a very large fountain and landscaping that will take up a big part. We are also going to plant hostas around the trees, it is traditional, but it will work. In the back - he has agreed to have us remove an extremely large, nasty, gnarly old willow tree. This will be a huge help.

osuturfman
06-12-2003, 04:48 PM
SWD hit the nail right on the head. Dawn Ultra dishwashing detergent is probably the cheapest and most efficacious thing out there. Beyond that there is a fine granular product called Terracyte produced by BioSafe Systems that you can use as well. It costs quite a bit more than Dawn but works very well when sprinkled on every 1-2 days.

Like everyone else said, get a soil test before you start applying lime. If I applied lime every time I had moss on a putting green then I would have few spots with a pH of 14 (just kidding). Hope this works out for you.

donal
07-09-2005, 09:38 AM
Is any washing up liquid good, or just the Dawn ultrex antibacterial. What rates do you use? Dawn Ultrex is not availible in New Zealand, hense the reason for asking if other washing up liquids will suit? How effective is the dawn ultrex compared to Ferrous sulphate in solution?

osuturfman
07-09-2005, 02:13 PM
To my knowledge, only Dawn Ultra is the only soap that has shown any affects on moss. In the two years since my previous post a new product, Quicksilver, has been found the control moss with hardly any injury to the surrounding turf.

In what setting are you trying to control moss (rock garden, putting green, etc.)?

Here is a useful link: http://turfgrassmanagement.psu.edu/chemicalcontrolmoss.cfm

GreenUtah
07-09-2005, 02:28 PM
In speaking with the subcontractor (been in business long time, first year that I am using him) - I mentioned the improvements that we will be doing. I asked him about a soil test and he laughed and said that was unnecessary and he could tell by looking at it that it needed a heavy liming. I asked how heavy and he said that you can never overlime a yard. I even point blank asked him about 40lbs/1000 and he reiterated that the lawn can be white and it will never hurt. This is the same guy that told me that no chemical will kill wild violets (one of many weeds there.)

but after browsing the posts, beginning to think this guy is a real doorknob.

To begin with, he could have been doing it for 40 years and be doing it wrong for 40 years. If everything he does looks like crap, everything he continues to do will as well, you did check his references, didn't you? I've dealt with pro turf managers who have actually argued with me that any fertilizer put down liquid just evaporates away,people doing it for 20 plus years and in control of hundreds of acres of turf, hundreds of acres of crappy turf. An example of how just a tiny bit of knowledge(atmospheric N-a subject for another day) can be misconstrued by someone unwilling to continue to learn. Can soil ever take too much chemical of any kind? What makes a superfund site?! lol..pros never stop learning and are always ready to evaluate new techniques and materials, but are always erring to the side of caution. Going out and snowing lime with no knowledge of the soil PH is not erring to the side of caution.

FYI Iron is widely used to control moss in nursery growing situations. Why does it work? That's for you to decide. :blob3:

Williams Services
07-09-2005, 05:02 PM
Ditto the Quicksilver post. I have used it with great success on moss.

Neal Wolbert
07-10-2005, 12:48 AM
I don't get it. What is wrong with giving the gentleman what he wants? Mix 20% sprayable ferrous sulfate at 1/2# actual iron ptsf (2.5# product) in 3-5 gallons of water and apply evenly with any kind of sprayer (license may be required in your state-if so you can't even use Dawn Ultra because it is not a registered pesticide). The moss will turn black and stop growing. New moss may grow again in a month or so. If so, just treat again and again, etc. A periodic spray program will keep the moss at bay or you may actually win the battle, who knows? If the budget allows, rake out the moss and overseed. I'm assuming your moss is similar to the lawn moss we all live with in the Northwest. Neal

donal
07-13-2005, 07:16 AM
To my knowledge, only Dawn Ultra is the only soap that has shown any affects on moss. In the two years since my previous post a new product, Quicksilver, has been found the control moss with hardly any injury to the surrounding turf.

In what setting are you trying to control moss (rock garden, putting green, etc.)?

Here is a useful link: http://turfgrassmanagement.psu.edu/chemicalcontrolmoss.cfm

Thanks for the great link, its pretty good and balenced. Unfortunately Ultra Dawn is not availible in New Zealand, so guess it is a USA product, hense the reason I was asking if other detergents may do the trick. Also Quicksilver is also not registered here. Interestingly the article does not mention some of the more common moss controls used down here such as benzalkonium chloride and also dichlorophen. I am not keen on these chemicals as they do have a tendancey to burn at times especialy on finer turf such as bent and fine fescues. I am using it in a lawn care situation and I like the iron sulphate as it is very safe, cheap and does not yellow turf. If it gets some blackening, I dont mind too much as it does grow out readily grow out. However our cycle is visiting the property once every 8 weeks, so even if you get strong control of moss on your visit, there is still lots of time for it to grow before the next visit. We have very damp winters and being so far south we have very low winter sun causing serious shade areas on the south side (opposite of northern hemisphere) of houses, fences and trees.

LwnmwrMan22
07-14-2005, 10:17 AM
And here I thought it was a thread from Randy going to the Oakland Raiders.

William J. L.
07-14-2005, 12:05 PM
Lime? Aren't you going the wrong way? Shouldn't you use sulfur?

William J. L.
07-14-2005, 12:08 PM
Use DeMoss to kill it...however you'll still have to rake it off anyway. Aerate and seed...and yes see if more light can get through. Take a soil test to check the ph..especially is the moss is reaching a sunny area.

William J. L.
07-14-2005, 12:11 PM
From the Bachman Weekly
"Just the mention of moss in the lawn can ignite a heated discussion. People either love it or hate it. Despite what many gardeners think, moss does not crowd out or kill grass, it grows where grass struggles. Most of the questions we get about moss concern how to get rid of it. To deal with moss, start by determining why it is growing in that place and find out if anything else will grow in those conditions. Moss does best where the soil is compacted, poorly drained and shady. It also likes soils that have either a very high or very low pH and soil that is nutritionally poor. To deal with the existing moss right now, you can either rake it out or use one of the products on the market that kill moss, keeping in mind that these are only temporary solutions. In our area, it is a mistake to automatically assume the soil needs lime. Soil should be tested before applying lime, sulfur or any other amendment used to adjust soil pH. For a long term solution, you need to change the conditions that favor the moss."