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First Call
05-21-2003, 07:40 AM
I may have to deal with a ban in my Town in the next year or so.
Spraying for chinch bug is big business here. what else can you do with them ?

How about weed control?

Have any of you had to deal with this?

Grassmechanic
05-21-2003, 02:11 PM
Elaborate more. What is being banned, by who, etc.

Mike

mowerparts
05-21-2003, 09:35 PM
Go to http://www.insureforlaswns.com:blob3:

Grassmechanic
05-21-2003, 09:47 PM
Mowerparts - Website told me nothing about banned pesticides, it was selling an organic program.

Mike

cantoo
05-21-2003, 10:19 PM
Grassmechanic, over here some areas are making any pesticide use for cosmetic purposes illegal. I am trying to work on a big commercial bid and they are covered with dandelions but will not allow me to use chemicals. Going to happen province wide soon.

TheGrassGuy
05-22-2003, 04:40 AM
St. John's wants to ban all 'cosmetic' pesticides in 2004.

Grassmechanic
05-22-2003, 06:45 AM
Can you get more specific? I'm looking for chemical names, who is banning i.e. local govt., county govt., etc.

Mike

First Call
05-22-2003, 09:31 AM
It's starting in thegrassguy's city. The City councill is going to bann the use of all insecticides, herbicides and fungicides.
That are used for cosmetic purposes.

So cantoo, what are you doing?

and grassguy, i know you must be worried about the loss of chinchbug bus. what are you doing? ( I'm not in your area ) You probably know who I am by the name.

TheGrassGuy
05-23-2003, 03:32 PM
I have not heard a lot of specifics on the ban but we have one councilor here who wants to push this ban through. Not sure of his reason yet (popular opinion says votes).

Chinch bug is a real problem here and I guess what is lost from spraying them will be picked up by other services in an attempt to keep the lawns as healthy as possible to reduce the impact of chinch bugs. Aeration and topdressing are becoming more popular now as well as converting lawn areas into beds etc. As I mentioned in another post, I have had a number of requests to add white clover to some lawns. I have not seen the endophyte treated rye grass here yet - has anyone used it and does it work?

First Call I don't know who you are yet, where are you located?

Grassmechanic
05-23-2003, 03:59 PM
The reason I'm asking is, here in S.E. Michigan, we are doing battle with two big problems. The first one is West Nile Virus, which is spread by mosquitoes and is killing people with weakened immune systems. The second one is Emerald Ash Borer which is wiping out all ash trees that become infected. If any pinhead politician around here was to try to ban our weapons against these pests, I'm sure they'd be about as popular as the Dixie Chicks at a White House picnic. You should try to educate those morons that are pushing for pesticide bans as to the detrimental effects it could have on you folks down the road. Round up (no pun intended) all your local lawn buddies and attend the city council meetings and let your voices be heard. BTW Merit is showing some good results on Emerald Ash Borer if it is used as a preventive.

Mike

dan deutekom
05-23-2003, 07:06 PM
Toronto just passed a ban on the cosmetic use of pesticides after a hard battle by the lawn care group. It comes into effect next year. You wouldn't believe the speeches given by the environmentalist councilors about how "beneficial and beautiful dandelions" are.:angry: Spraying will be allowed for "infestations" but the council still has to define what is considered an infestation. To top it all off they have budget almost 1/2 million $ per year to implement this bylaw creating about 5 new city jobs to stop the homeowner from doing something the federal government says is legal and safe.:angry: :angry:

dan deutekom
05-23-2003, 08:02 PM
Mowerparts as for the website www.insureforlaswns.com Just look at the before and after pictures of the lawns. Looks good. Then check the trees in the pictures and figure out the time of year the before picture is and when the after picture is. If the organic guys want some credibility then they shouldn't play these types of games

mowerparts
05-23-2003, 09:54 PM
One it is not a game. Two yes the pictures were taken at different times of the year, mainly when the accounts were taken over and sometime later in the year.

However if the lawn is nice and green then the products do work.
I have been to most of the homes and businesses on the web page and they do look better than other lawns.

Some of the lawns that they took over only had 4"-5" root system. After a year on the Insure System the roots were anywhere between 10"-14" long.

It's not about who system you go with. It's a about finding a system who you can use that gets the results that you are looking for.

It is just a mater of time before the Gov. pulls the rest of the chemicals that we use daily on our lawns. I have found that the Insure products work and are one of the the alternative to using the chemical products. I just think now is the time to find a organic system that works so that you can be a head of the curve before the game rules are changed.

One other point is that you do not need a chemical spray license because the EPA does not regulate the products. (All organic).
:angel:

cantoo
05-23-2003, 10:30 PM
First Call, I don't have a real problem with too many customers yet but it's coming. I have a few customers who call me asking what they can do on their lawns. I tell them to let me look after it or they can can an organic company and try that route. I don't force anything on anyone. I have posted here before about a couple of my customers. I just got done spraying the one customer last week they are very happy with the lawn, now we can cut back on the apps. Last year we did two blanket sprays we will likely skip the fall spraying and only spot spray. I have a customer who has poisin ivy around the edges of their property they don't believe in chemicals but after the wife spend two weeks in the hospitakl from a severe case of poisin ivy they called and said to spray it and keep spraying it on a regular basis. The good news is I bought some spray equipmentt from the City of Toronto because they can't use it now.

dan deutekom
05-23-2003, 11:03 PM
Yes it is a game. Any lawn that you take a picture of in early spring/late winter looks pretty crappy. Take a picture of the same lawn in late spring and it looks good. The real test is to take pictures of a lawn in August and then 1 year later. That will tell the true tale. Even the worse lawns in the world look good after the first flush of growth in spring. Organics can work, but the are not the panacea that environmentalists say. Grass is an unnatural mono-culture that occasionally needs a little chemical help when conditions arn't just right.

mowerparts
05-24-2003, 04:10 AM
As i said it is not a game. Pictures were takein when properties were takin over and retakin agin a few months later.
If the products did not work the lawns would not show the resaults a few months later.
By the way the pictures are from florida and most of the lawns stay green almost year round, unless we had some hard frost.
Go to http://www.bioearthinc.com/ for more info on the company.
They are on the up and up and do not use tricks to sell their products.:blush:
We have come out with a round-up replacement and a product that takes care of chinch bugs.

dan deutekom
05-24-2003, 09:05 AM
Mowerparts

It is a game. Look at the deciduous trees. B4 pictures have no leaves and the after pictures are in full leaf. Good cultural practices that includes organic, and chemical materials as required make for a good lawn. Websites that slant the truth and imply that the lawn will be cured in 30 to 120 days insult my intelligence.

B4

dan deutekom
05-24-2003, 09:07 AM
After

mowerparts
05-24-2003, 10:12 AM
It is no game! The results are from all organic products; no chemicals are used at all.
Can you get the same results with the organic products that you can use? I do not think so.
http://www.insureforlawns.com/images/bankbef.jpg http://www.insureforlawns.com/images/bankaft.jpg
All that the pictures are showing regardless of when the pictures were taken is that the products can work just as well as chemical applications can. That’s it plain and simple.
:D

dan deutekom
05-24-2003, 06:08 PM
My B4 and after pictures are March and July. The only thing used on this lawn is granular fertilizer in early spring and spot spraying of weeds with a hand sprayer in late summer. Your pictures that you posted have leafless trees and then full trees just like mine. Your after picture looks like it was doctored in a program like photo shop as well. You may believe what you like but I don't and nothing you can do will convince me unless you would like to set up a controlled test plot over a two year period with strict controls and honest documentation. I have made it a point to do these type of tests to prove to myself if any new product or method is worth it. So far the organics just don't cut the mustard when you consider cost and results. When it does I will use it but for now it is IPM (which includes chemicals when needed).

So in closing I will agree to disagree with you and I hope that someday you may convince me.

First Call
05-26-2003, 02:08 PM
Grass Guy, I'm in Clarenville.
Nothing gone to council on it yet but I get a feeling it wont be long if it passes in Town.
Where do you get the white clover from? How often does it flower?

Do you make your own topdressing? What do you use?

TheGrassGuy
05-26-2003, 04:47 PM
First Call
I get the clover from East-Chem or Gaze Seed. Gaze Seed has started mixing clover with the 40-40-20 at a rate of 7% (it changes the other percentages but you know what I mean I hope).
The last few topdressing jobs have been done with a 50/50 mix of peat and sand that I buy from Polar Construction. I also work with the city and they have bought in topdressing sand from out your way. I will have to find out for you when I am back in the office.

airborne1
05-26-2003, 11:11 PM
All natural this guy has the canadian market cornered selling about 10 million $$$$ worth to the two provinces that have banned already. go to WWW.GREENERPASTURES.NET to look.

dan deutekom
05-27-2003, 08:29 PM
WWW.GREENERPASTURES.NET is an other "organic" website that has no explanation of the actual product, it's use, how it works or dead links for the product description. At least with the chemicals you get MSDS sheets that outline all of the properties and effects of the chemical. A lot of empty claims but no proof.

airborne1
05-28-2003, 12:26 AM
The stuff at greenerpastures is made out of soy oils and beets it has a funny smell. It is mixed 50/50 and applied 1-2 gal/min. It takes a few applications for it to really take affect (3-4). I am using this product because I have a customer that has a allergic dog and wants fert/weed control, so I had to try something. It is a little slow. I applied it about 3 weeks ago, first application it is starting to burn the weeds. I applied another application last weekend and will see on friday what it looks like. Very expensive, retail $20.00/gal. I got it for $10.00/gal. bought 2 5gal containers and they gave me a free 5gal. They would have sold me a 55gal for $360.00, I think it was. Really nice people, I suppose at $10.00/gal. Anyway owner was a farmer I think and he created this stuff, his name is Mark Miles 651-646-2900.

dan deutekom
05-29-2003, 08:49 PM
Just a little to think about. I have thought about it a lot.

Comparison of Killex to Natures Weed Control

COST (Material only)
KILLEX:
As used on turf, once a year at end of season
$10.15 per acre

NWC:
As recommended by use instructions
240.00 per application X 3 applications $720.00 per acre

TOXICISTY
LD stands for “Lethal Dose”. LD50 is the amount of a material, given all at once, which causes the death of 50% (one half) of a group of test animals. The LD50 is one way to measure the short-term poisoning potential (acute toxicity) of a material.
In general, the smaller the LD50 value, the more toxic the chemical is. The opposite is also true: the larger the LD50 value, the lower the toxicity. An LD50 value of over 5000 is considered practically non toxic.2
KILLEX
Has a LD50 of >5000
NWC:
No LD50 available but manufacture states “It is 11.5 times less toxic than 2-4-D”
(LD50 of 11,204)
Killex is used at 3.5 pints per acre while NWC is applied at 20 gallons per acre (160 pints). When the toxicity of the land is compared after the application is made; the Killex treated land actually has 25% of the toxicity value of NWC treated land.
(Amount Killex) X 11.5 = Amount NWC therefore
3.5 pints Killex X 11.5 = 40.5 pints NWC
CARINOGENICITY
Extensive testing of 24D has not proven any links to causing cancer in Humans or animals.
1. http://www.allaboutweeds.com
2. http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/ld50.html


Excerpt from a Toronto Staff Report Dated March 7, 2003. Full report available at http://www.toronto.ca/pesticides/index.htm


"Weed control in parkland, particularly dandelions in general parkland, remains as a major
challenge and as a primary source of complaint from the public. 2,4-D, the most common,
effective pesticide used to control dandelions, has generally not been employed in City parks
since 1999. Several pilot projects (Sugar Beet Extract, Corn Gluten Meal and Aquacide) have
been initiated on City parkland to evaluate the performance of alternatives to chemical
pesticides in order to address this concern.
Sugar Beet Extract was tested as an organic means of broadleaf weed control in turf, based upon
claims by the manufacturer that this material would control weeds especially dandelion and
plantain. Field trials conducted in 2002 produced very disappointing initial results. Costs for both
purchasing and applying this product were also found to be prohibitive, when considered for
 4 -
application to general parkland – the area where weed infestation is the biggest challenge.
Additional testing will be conducted in 2003.
Corn Gluten Meal works by suppressing the development of new weeds by inhibiting seed
germination. A trial conducted on a sports field in 2002 indicated that it was effective in
controlling knotweed. Existing research suggests that corn gluten meal can suppress weeds
(especially crabgrass). While these results are encouraging, they do not address the need to
control broad-leafed weeds, primary dandelions, in turf. Full-scale trials using corn gluten meal
to suppress weeds will continue in 2003 with particular emphasis on evaluating its effectiveness
on dandelions. It should be noted that corn gluten meal is valuable as an organic fertilizer and
soil enhancement product in addition to any weed suppression qualities it may have.
Aquacide treatment involves killing weeds using super heated water delivered much as a
pesticide would be. A study compared the performance of Aquacide to the chemical herbicide
glyphosate (brand name “Round-Up”) for the control of weeds in hard surfaces such as patios.
Although results vary with the type of weed and time of year of application, the field study
indicated that, in general, Aquacide required from two to three times the resource expenditure
than would glyphosate to achieve the same level of weed control."

YOU DECIDE WHAT MAKES SENSE