I've been "Doing it wrong" for 23 years...

[TLS]

Still can't believe this happened!

Was mowing on Tuesday. Busy day. Notice that when I pull up to the property, that a local Landscaper was mulching a property 2 doors down. Larger type company, 4-5 trucks, couple of crews, known more for landscaping than mowing.

Anyways......

Get there, edge sidewalks with the stick edger. Go back to trailer, get string trimmer and wanted to hit a few areas that the ZTR cant reach and zip around house and edge asphalt driveway. I trimmed real good last week so it only needed a touchup. Get halfway around house (counter clockwise as I always do it) round the corner, and there is this guy standing there. Scared me!

Stop trimmer, remove Peltors. He introduces himself to me as the owner of this Landscaping Co. I shake his hand (firm as always -thanks to SCAG pistol grips-) and say "Hi". He proceeds to tell me that he couldn't take it anymore and just HAD to come over here and give me a few tips.....He says...."Your doing this all wrong" "I've been doing this for 16 years and 'had' 135 accounts, 3 crews, so I know what I'm doing" I simply nod my head. He says...."You need to mow first, then string trim" and that I'm "wasting a lot of extra time" and that I'm " trimming in the wrong direction and by going 'his way' I wouldn't get any grass in the flower beds" Which I DON'T do anyway. :mad:

He says "If you do it MY way you'll save yourself up to 45 minutes a day" and I'll "have more time to spend with my wife and kids". I continue to absorb this and nod once again. He says " Your OVER-TRIMMING by doing it first, that you don't know where you cant mow until your done mowing." Plus "when you trim first.....GET THIS.... You mat down the grass with your feet before it can get cut" :rolleyes:

I waited till I thought he was done, and just said, thanks for your ideas and reached out to shake his hand.

He closed with " I always like to help out new guys that are 'doing it wrong' so that they can improve themselves"


YEP...Thats right, according to him, I'm a new guy now! That means I've been doing it wrong for 23 years, so I better listen to this veteran with 16 years under his belt! :mad:

After he left to go back to his Mexicans, I pinched myself to make sure this wasn't a dream! I mean....NEVER in 100 years would I have the ballz to go up to another LCO and tell them that they're "Doing it all wrong". Unless they're mowing with their blades on upside down or leaking gas out of their mower, etc. Am I just too humble of myself to have NOT commented back to this nutcase? I thought of 100 things I could have said to this guy, but I think I'll let it go.

As you can see, this really got my Irish up!



Anyone ever been approached like this?

[greenman]

OMG, I would have let him now that you are very much senior to him. As far as a wrong way.....NO. Everyone does it their own way. Most people do mow first (like your Mr.Know-It-All guy), but I, like you, trim first. Usually. I know where and where not my mowers can get. Did I learn this from you? :)

[Westbrooklawn]

A guy would really have to have some brass ballz to do that! I agree that when you mow a new property the first few times it makes sense to mow first because you can then readily identify the areas that need to be trimmed, but after you have done this a few times there is no reason not to trim first......I can come within an inch of where my mower will reach!!

I think you handled it great.....let him rant on and then laugh to yourself....very funny! You are the bigger person for it......

[crazygator]

Well after the first hint of "Your doing it all wrong" statement, I think I would have cranked up the trimmer and started back again.

Yes, there are a number of ways you can do this work. And they all get the job done.

But did he think about the way you were doing it? All the trimmings get recut by the mower, which in turn leaves the place much neater. Common sense would tell him that, but then again he would have had to be thinking.....hahaha :D

Thats a good one Mr. New Guy!....:p

[Jimbo]

TLS- I would try and let it go. That guy has big balls thats for sure.

I think I would have let him talk but when he said to string trim last I would have said something. He has a good point about over trimming, but I would rather over trim than to end up with long pieces of wacked grass on my freshly cut lawn.

I agree with your process of trimming first.

Jimbo

[STAN1366]

Trimming first in the right direction is important when the grass is high(like now). As was said before, you re-cut the trimmed grass so it looks much neater. Maybe next time you see this guy working nearby, you could spend even more time w/ the trimmer, then go around again w/ a push mower(2 laps!), THEN use the big mower. Maybe that'll get HIS Irish up!

[sheppard]

Dear TLS,

When confronted by highly arrogant people the natual tendency is to think "Am I being too humble or a wimp?" No. You are not. This guy was arrogant, self-serving and a collosal clod!

You showed you were the class act by holding your cards to your chest and letting that bozo get deeper in his arrogant self. The one consolation is that in the future some guy may pop him in the mouth as he is spilling his wisdom to the next guy.

Cordially,
S.

[Green Pastures]

I think you handled it with style. When you have 23 years in the business there is no need to proclaim it to everybody you meet, your maturity and experience should shine through. I think it did in this case.

The guy's points are valid, however I do not think there is a right way and a wrong way as far as mow first trim last or vise versa.

I have noticed that since I got my Walker and mow first that I had been over trimming. The Walker really can get into places you don't think it could. When mowing with the Walker now I trim after mowing. I was surprised at how much less trimming I had to do.

It really doesn't matter to me unless it's a really high visibility area, if so I'll always trim first.

I think you did the right thing, nod your head and smile, thanks for the advice, have a great day, nice to meet you. You made his day, he feels like he helped somebody out, and you didn't lose any face. No harm no foul.

[Bluesteel]

Direction has to do with your style, so that’s not a right or wrong issue. I assume you’re blowing the trim-waste back into the yard before you mow. But don’t you have to blow after you mow as well? If so, I agree with him that you’re wasting time by trimming first. However, your method results in a much more professional appearance. But you knew that, hehe.

I admire your style as well. Sometimes it’s fun to sit back and watch someone make a fool of themself. When I’m working and someone drives up and asks, “Do you mow?”, it’s fun to offer no response. Just look at them and wait for another brilliant statement, cuz it’s coming as sure as the dawn. LOL

[Swampbeast]

TLS, you are a better man than I, I would never have been able to keep my mouth shut like you did. Very good!
I have had some wierd experiences while mowing, but never have I had a LCO come up to me and tell me how to do it. I think you handled it the best way, Grin and Nod, then keep mowing.
What we usually do is at the start, two guys grab trimmers and two guys grab mowers, and start mowing and trimming at the same time. Whoever finishes first grabs the edger and edges, and while he is doing that, another guy has finished by that time and blows the sidewalks and driveways. I think thats a combination of the two different methods.
:cool:

[Turf Dancer]

I would not have been able to hold my tongue! I would have told this guy just how much sand to pack !

[Doc Pete]

Originally posted by TLS
[B]
He says " Your OVER-TRIMMING by doing it first, that you don't know where you cant mow until your done mowing." Plus "when you trim first.....GET THIS.... You mat down the grass with your feet before it can get cut" :rolleyes:

[

Actually, by trimming first you do two things or maybe three. First, by trimming first, you "DON'T" have the big wheels of the WB or rider matt down the grass by each tree, which makes it's harder to trim level. Second, if the grass is a bit long, trimming first allows the long clippings to be chopped up by the mower "INSTEAD" of laying around the trees and looking stupid. And third, a good whacker knows about where his mower will cut and trimming first let's you mow faster by seeing where you "DON'T" have to cut.
NOW, you know why "40 years" of experience is just better:p :p
Pete

[AltaLawnCare]

Just keep an eye on his accounts...

It will be real easy for you to bid against him after that. ;)

[gogetter]

Tom, next time you see him, grab your 21" push mower and plunk it down in the middle of the yard, start it up and just start walking around in all different directions with a big happy face, bobbing your head from side to side, singing "laa laa la la".

[Strawbridge Lawn]

I know people who have been driving 35 years and still don't do it right IMO, and that is the key.. Everyone has an opinion, but whatever works for you and keeps your customers happy is
all that matters. It is up to each of us to figure out how to keep our clients happy and remain efficient.
Personally, I prefer to cut first becaue a ZTR with a stripe kit rolls the grass at the driveway edges. It is unevern after I cut it so I straighten it by trimming second. Ohh, and may I add that a good trim man never trims into a bed (Always away).

I am still trying to do it cleaner and faster

[LakeSide Lawn and Landscape]

I agree with trimming first,i also think there is alot of ways to do things and most none of those ways are wrong.Some better than others but not wrong:)

[BSDeality]

the guy was probably eyeing the property to bid on it and you caught him in the act.

[AVRECON]

I've met the same guy before. He must work all of the eastern seaboard.:D

[zfrog]

Sounds to me like he went about it the wrong way, but I believe he was trying to actulally help and had good intentions. (No it wasn't me.) I tell guys at the dump who unload their trucks manually (cultivating tines or rakes) that they should either get a loadhandler (life saver) or at least put a plastic tarp on the bed first, then you can pull it out all at once with a helper. I'm just trying to save them some time at the end of a long day. I don't mean to be, and I don't think I am at all like the guy you mentioned, I'm just trying to help. If he had prefaced his advice differently, perhaps it would be a completely different situation.

P.S. I like to mow first, then string trim. I string trim the sidewalks, drives, etc. too except for spring clean-up time when I use a gas walk behind edger for the first edge. And sometimes again in the middle of the year. The edges on pavement come out much better in my opinion if you mow first, plus it's easier as there is less resistance for the string to cut through if you mow first. Your way is fine too if that's what you like to do. I'm Hans Solo so for me the fastest, best appearance method is the only way to go. After I can't even tell you how many thousands of lawns (I will have to estimate it someday now that I think of it) I have my method that I like best too! Sorry for all the ()s.

[Lawn Dog2001]

I have absolutely no tolerance for @$$holes like that. I would have told him to keep his opinions to himself, and restarted my trimmer while he was standing there. And by the way, next time you see him ask him if you can have the 5 minutes of your life he just wasted back.

I have seen young kids just starting out between the ages of 16 and 20. I have offered, and been asked for, some advice on different things when I see them. But this is totally different. You have no time for this, especially in the rainy season. If he is such a veteran he should know that.

He is lucky, if he caught me on a wrong day I might have knocked him out. I will put on a smile and put up with anything a customer has to say, because thats my job. But I do not tolerate nonsense from pompous jerks.

All that being said I agree with his advice. That is how we trim. But to each his own.

[Tharrell]

You could have said "Gee, I've been doing it wrong for 28 years" or whatever the time was.

[65hoss]

After all that I would probably told him "well after 23 years experience I have learned 1 thing real well. How to give a haircut with my trimmer to dumb *** know it alls."

What a moron.

[ULTIMATE LAWN]

LOL!
Hoss & TLS dish out advice every day on this site.

Does that make them morons?

[Gene $immons]

Was this guy Jim Lewis? J/K

[nelbuts]

Ok, I knwo that I will take some heat here but he was RIGHT!

Mowing first will reduce your trimming time by 20% over the course of the day.

I always trim clockwise. If you are doing it counter clockwise and not getting grass then you are tilting your trimmer head downward toward you which means you are not getting the optimal power from the trimmer. Also, you can walk faster without the trimmer across your body.

So take it as I think the guy meant it, some constructive information.

[TLS]

I really cant believe I didn't get defensive with him. I usually would have in such a situation. It wasn't like he was much older, and he was even a smaller guy than me. So the intimidation factor wasn't present on either end.


As for trimming first.....................

Always have.

Always will.

Can't teach an old (not that old!) Dog new tricks! :)

Here's why.

1] The trimmings or clippings get thrown INTO the lawn before mowing to later be chopped up by the mower.

2] I know EXACTLY where my mower can and cant go. Even where it's easier to string trim so I don't waste time maneuvering the Lazer in tight areas.

3] By string edging driveways and beds, it gets it, and stands it straight up to then be cut by the mower. If you mow first, then verti-edge you will stand up stragglers higher than your cut plane.

4] This is the BIGGIE.....Get the hard work done first! Save the best (easiest) for last!


As for clock wise or c-c wise... I hold the trimmer loop with my left hand and the right hand holds the throttle area. Picture holding your right hand up about your eye level to shake Shaq's hand, put the trimmer in there and work the throttle with your pinkie. Thats how I verti-trim. Plus by walking C-C the trimmer pulls you along so to speak. No, grass doesn't get in the beds, it gets on me! :eek:



I really still cant believe he came over. I know a few people that kinda know him. I'll probably bring this situation up in casual conversation with them, in hopes that it will eventually get back to him. I consider myself fairly well respected by the local LCO's . This guy isn't in our little click (I now know why!)


Thanks for letting me vent and share this story.

[Lawn Tek]

Advice to his improper landscaping would have been a great comeback .

Or I don't want to save time , I 'm already retired ,made my fortune early LANDSCAPING , just mowing for fun

[Randy Scott]

You did the right thing, you saved your breath for someone or something that deserves it!

[Lawn-Scapes]

Well Tommy.. None of us were there so we don't know what kind of attitude he had. I see nothing wrong with him trying to help. I do think he should have asked you a few questions first.. like how long have you been in biz? ;)

I always mow first then trim. I believe it does save a little time and it allows me to touch up anything the mower may have missed. I actually prefer trimming over mowing so I guess I could say.. I'm saving the best for last. ;)

I also trim counter-clockwise because it has a more natural flow to it. However I cannot claim that I don't get any clippings in the bed.

[tiedeman]

I can't believe that you didn't say something to him...I would have said something really smarta@@ back to him. Like, ,"By the way, you are putting down the mulch too thin." "I had to say something, it's always good to help out you new landscaping companies in town.":D

[Hud]

Originally posted by TLS
Am I just too humble of myself to have NOT commented back to this nutcase? I thought of 100 things I could have said to this guy, but I think I'll let it go. As you can see, this really got my Irish up! Thanks for the great post. I don't know how old you are, but you might be an excellent example of someone who is "wise beyond their years". You handled that situation, well, in a very cool way. I especially like your line, "I thought of 100 things I could have said to this guy, but I think I'll let it go." Truth be known, you might have made this guy's day. He might have gone back to his crew, and told them what a nice, smart guy you are for letting HIM fix your problem:D

BTW, it seems science is telling us now that people who respond to life's adversities in the way you did, tend to live a lot longer than those of us who respond in more negative ways. So congratulations; the way you handled this little encounter might have added a couple more years to your life:blob3:

[crazygator]

Originally posted by Hud
BTW, it seems science is telling us now that people who respond to life's adversities in the way you did, tend to live a lot longer than those of us who respond in more negative ways. So congratulations; the way you handled this little encounter might have added a couple more years to your life

All that tongue biting and he only gets a couple? :D

[ADLAWNCUTTERS]

I would have said oh ,gave him the trimmer and said show me how it is done and went back to the truck and took a break. I'm sure you know your properties so well you know what needs to be trimmed before you cut..you did the polite thing and thats ok.:)

[Richard Martin]

You handled it very well Tommy. I actually like to hear what others have to say about my methods and techniques. I have learned alot from others. And I'm still learning to this day.

[Mickhippy]

Trim first then mow up the rubbish!
Thats all

[Tidycut]

Are you really 100% pure breed Irish? Your restraint must have been unbearable. Surely, something else must have suffered your wrath. What was it? Did you slam the trimmer into the ground so hard the shaft bent? J/k :D


"4] This is the BIGGIE.....Get the hard work done first! Save the best (easiest) for last!"

I agree with your reasons and the order in which they are done. Reason 4 is a biggie for me too. The most fatiguing part of maintenance, besides hedge trimming, is running the string trimmer, IMO.

Rick

[Albemarle Lawn]

Your profile shows your 33 but maybe you look younger.

I'm 30 and people think I look 38 YIKES!!!

I used to get mad when I was 25 and got carded to drink, now I tell them thanks and gladly show my ID!!!

Ken

[Gravely_Man]

Hopefully the guy was just really trying to be helpful and not as smart…. Don't worry about it and move on.


Gravely_Man

[Turfdude]

TLS,

On the rare (and I mean under 5 days a year) that I have to go on my own, I do it the same way too - trim & edge first!. Yes counter clockwise trimming throws debris into turf and not beds!! The only thing I do differently is the verticle trimming - "you're doing it all wrong" - LOL I too keep my left hand on the loop and trigger finger on right w/ trimmer on my right side, but for verticle trimming I personally just keep the trimmer at the same height as while trimming, but flip the trimmer so my thumb is on the throttle. The only difference is the engine is further from your head/ears (I prefer plugs).

On occasion, I will show a fellow LCO that I know well a few tips/pointers that I've learned through the years to expedite matters, and have been shown a few things in return, but that guy had brass ones!!!

[brucec32]

I usually mow first, then trim. But it's more out of habit than anything. I agree you can trim first, and hit mostly only what's needed on lawns you've done before, since you know where your mower can get and where it can't. Experience does count on this.

Another big advantage of your style of trimming first is that here people use pine bark nuggets a lot, w/o proper edging to contain them. So, when you edge the bed borders, you can get it shooting off into the lawn, which means you have to chase it around later with a blower and get it back in the beds. By trimming first, you can come back by with the mower and vac it up if you're bagging for a cleaner look.

I also usually trim counter clockwise, but it varies on the job. My goal is to minimize walking, of course.

Someone above made a good point about doing the hard part first, then doing the easy stuff last. I may try doing that more. There are a few back-to-back properties I do where I'm sucking wind near the end after all that trimming/blowing. It'd be nice to break it up some with a ride on the ZTR in between.


I know a guy like the one who stopped you. Uses Hispanic day laborers to mow his lawns. Imagine the quality job those folks are getting. I just let him have his say.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Switchless@aol.com
a good whacker knows about where his mower will cut That should of summed the entire conversation up.

[smburgess]

Too bad some GOOD advice is taken as an affront. I learn new, different, and sometimes even BETTER ways to do things nearly everyday.

I am really surprised at the responses putting down the guy that gave the advice. He may have went about giving the advice wrong, but none the less it was all good advice. It really surprised me that hardly anyone here agreed with it!

[Green in Idaho]

Trim first. Anyone who thinks it wastes time is smoking it instead of mowing it. Someone who puts 1,000 hours on a mower knows exactly where the blades will cut and where they won't- IF they are thinking while mowing. True it might save THAT guy because.. well, because....

An efficient operator can trim as fast as he can walk. A GOOD one can speed walk and trim at the same time, with a clean cut! If you have to walk to the other corner of the turf, you might as be trimming too.

Another benefit is one can scan the property while trimming; trash, toys, hoses etc. It's easier to set a trimmer down for a second or lean over to pocket trash. That eliminates a walk-through before the mower.

The only time I could see trimming afterwards is when one is not bagging anyway and the mow clippings and the trim clipping are just blended together- then it doesn't matter. But if one is bagging the trim is first.

*****
However, in my opinion there is a WRONG way to trim and a lot of opertors are doing it.

The wrong way is running along cutting a 45* (or less) angle on the trim.

A correct trim puts a 90* cut on sidewalks and driveways.

[Green in Idaho]

I don't think it's a matter of the guy having brass at all.

IF he were made of brass, he would have pulled out a stopped watch and said, "Meet at high noon next week, and I'll do it for you my way while you relax. We'll see who's faster."

And if a crew is running, I can't figure how two people could do it with the concept of trimming last... they would both have to start out mowing and at some "magical point" one would decide to trim; or one would follow the mower, but then what about the interior trim parts???

Is anyone doing trimming last with a crew? How does that work?

[TLS]

Just talked to my good friend who kinda knows this guy. He says he went wacky about 5 years ago. He used to be a decent guy, and.......get this......a car salesman! So now that my buddy knows of the situation, maybe word will get back around to him in time.

He said he is now one of the rudest people he knows. Goes to open houses (Lesco, EP Henry, etc) and brings his entire workforce and cleans house on all the hordeurves (sp?) and freebies. No plates, no toothpicks, no napkins, he just takes handfulls and scarfs them up!


Anyway,....

I'm open to learning something new each day. If you don't you'll go nowhere. But, the way in which he attempted to enlighten me, was far from human. What works for his crews of Mexicans simply will not work for me as a solo owner/operator.


And I'm not saying I know everything, far from it! But I'm almost confident that I've forgotten more about lawn mowing than this guy still remembers.

[Doc Pete]

Originally posted by smburgess
Too bad some GOOD advice is taken as an affront. I learn new, different, and sometimes even BETTER ways to do things nearly everyday.

I am really surprised at the responses putting down the guy that gave the advice. He may have went about giving the advice wrong, but none the less it was all good advice. It really surprised me that hardly anyone here agreed with it!

Actually, for working with crews that don't know each and how each other work, the advice is correct. HOWEVER, if this guy was "as good as he thought he was", he would have noticed he was talking to a "SOLO" guy, and not someone with a crew. Furthermore, there can be times when it's not "that" important whether or not you trim first or second, so again, saying there's only "one way", is still incorrect.
Pete

[snowplowjay]

That guy needs to be introduced to a flat metal shovel to the back of the head.

Jay

[Doc Pete]

Originally posted by snowplowjay
That guy needs to be introduced to a flat metal shovel to the back of the head.Jay

What, and waste a good metal shovel??:D

[smburgess]

I love being "quoted"!!!

However, I stand firmly to my statement - the advice was good.:cool:

[brucec32]

Originally posted by smburgess
I love being "quoted"!!!

However, I stand firmly to my statement - the advice was good.:cool:

Good, cuz I'm quoting you again.

There's more than one way to skin a mule. Only a donkey wouldn't understand that.

There are merits to both methods, for exactly the reasons switchless said. Inexperienced.....mow first to avoid having to pull the trimmer out twice. Experienced on a job, you can trim first and gain some advantages.

Did you read any of the previous posts? They explained in great detail some of these advantages.

Not to single yours out, but I'm really getting tired of all the "MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY" opinions expressed on these boards as fact. I find them to be very misleading to beginners looking for advice here.

New guys reading this.....I would BEWARE of anyone who regularly makes bold blanket statements about any aspect of this business. I've been doing this long enough to know that situations differ and nobody has it all figured out all the time.

[Live4Mowin']

TLS,

It's way more fun to trim first, alot more grass to cut!

[smburgess]

Good, cuz I'm quoting you again.

Thanks Again! I love it!

Not to single yours out, but I'm really getting tired of all the "MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY" opinions expressed on these boards as fact. I find them to be very misleading to beginners looking for advice here.

Was This for me? If so, how could you even remotely misunderstand my comments that badly?

Anyway the guy gave some good advice, 'nough said.

[j_loppy]

I love people that tell you how to do something! You did the right thing, though. It would have been fun to ask him if he saved those 45 minutes a day so that he could go "help" others save time!