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wissel_landscaping
06-27-2003, 06:18 PM
I just received my july copy of lawn and landscape mag.
which i enjoy reading until this issue. theres a artical on page 36 Language Lesson on how a lco is offering a spanish job application for spanish employees. then on page 94 another artical called Easy H-2B right of the bat the artical reads landscape co. across the country are discovering a south-of-the-border solution to thier staffing problems. Through the H-2B program, contractors can hire forein workers and bring them into the United States with completely legal working papers.
there are also a couple of other ads on mexican labor to me this is bull ****. I worked for a LCO had just over 10 years in and me and 20 other guys were let go so the LCO could hire mexicans at half what they were paying us all of us had car payments kids to feed but the LCO didnt care. to me these south of the border workers are cut throats taking jobs from the american people let them find there own work in mexico. I cant believe that good help is so hard to find that LCO's have to import there workers from mexico. here in Ohio there is more and more LCO's hiring mexicans, when i talk to other co. one of the first questions they ask is how many mexicans do you have. that really pisses me off
back when i did concrete the unions made sure to keep the cut throats out i think that LCO's should do the same. i cant believe lawn and landscape mag. endorses this, well this will be my last issue of there mag. sorry so long this just really pisses me off.

AL Inc
06-27-2003, 08:09 PM
Wissel landscaping- sorry you are upset, but this problem isn't going away. The reason they are here is because THERE ARE NO JOBS FOR THEM TO GET IN MEXICO. That is why they are here, and that is why they are going to keep coming.

If I didn't hire Hispanic workers, I would have no workforce. What, I'm going to rely on American kids who have zero work ethic and would rather party or sit in front of the TV? They work for a week or two and stop showing up? Sorry friend, been there, done that, not going to happen again.

Times are changing, you can either adapt or get run over by your competition. Don't blame L&L for endorsing it, they are adapting to the times.

By the way, my grandparents were first generation from Italy, they took whatever work they could find, the worst jobs, and people looked down on them like they were the lowest form of life. I see that as being the same as the Hispanic workers now trying to make a better life for themselves.

NC Big Daddy
06-27-2003, 08:59 PM
No LCO would let go 20 "GOOD" employees Mexican or otherwise! So read into to that what you will.

LAWNGODFATHER
06-27-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by NC Big Daddy
No LCO would let go 20 "GOOD" employees Mexican or otherwise! So read into to that what you will.

Ditto.

Upset or not, they are here to fill the labor shortage the USA has.

I adapted to the times. It's not the amount they are payed, it's the work ethics, and production they produce.

Green Goblin
06-27-2003, 09:31 PM
ditto to the above posts. like it or not most americans are lazy. I'm going to mexican labor force next year myself

MacLawnCo
06-27-2003, 11:07 PM
Although i know French well, im still taking Spanish classes for one reason. Take a guess why. If i ever have the need for employees, they will definately be hispanic.

gusbuster
06-27-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by AL Inc

By the way, my grandparents were first generation from Italy, they took whatever work they could find, the worst jobs, and people looked down on them like they were the lowest form of life. I see that as being the same as the Hispanic workers now trying to make a better life for themselves.

AL Inc,
The difference between your grand parents,my parents is: they eventually became part of the great tax system that most of love to pay into.

Most of the guys don't have any interest in setting roots in our soil. They just want to make money here, build there house, support their families and eventually live like kings south of the border.

I don't have a problem with any immigrant doing a job that 98% of Americans don't want to do because it's dirty, smelly etc..

The problems i have:
No intention of paying into the system or becoming part of the system.

As to what was originally posted about the hiring of Hispanics over American born: I'm in business to make a profit, so if I can get a guy that can produce the same that a higher paid person is doing at a cheaper rate, why not go with the cheaper cost person.

Before anybody says something, our family has Hispanics that have been with my dad's and uncles companies over 15 years, and my main guy over 10.
John

T.E.
06-28-2003, 12:25 AM
Well guys I'm going to here it but, I'm going to say it any way. yes most of the young people in America today are lazy and don't want to work. That I'll agree and, most if they do show up aren't dependable. That being said I for one disagree about Hispanics most of them where I'm at are illegal and don't deal in anything but, cash, duh! I wonder why that is? They under cut you and the rest of it that goes along with being scrubs. If they want to come over here and, learn our language and, be Americans then so be it. I will not hire them, no matter how good of workers they are,I worked fourteen years seven months sixteen days and was laid off permantlly and, the company kept some Hispanics that were not even legal, and it was tough stuff for me. I was born in this country I ought to have a job before an illegal immigrant.

SWD
06-28-2003, 12:56 AM
Why?
After fiftyeight (that's right 58) employees in two years - not counting those I employed on a golf course, amigos are here to stay.
If it weren't for mexicans, I wouldn't have a company.
I employee, currently, three mexicans, and one chicano.
Most profitable I have EVER been.
Hire white (gringo's) again - maybe, but that is a big maybe.
Replace what I have now - not by my choice.
As far as the border patrol - and this may result in my being banned - leave me the hell alone!!!!!
You don't like it - then come down here to 110* plus days with high humidity and see how long YOU last!

deere ZTR
06-28-2003, 01:11 AM
Anybody see anything wrong with all the jobs that we are sending to Mexico and then we turn around and here come all the damn Mexicans over the fence looking for a decent paying job. What does that say?

wissel_landscaping
06-28-2003, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by NC Big Daddy
No LCO would let go 20 "GOOD" employees Mexican or otherwise! So read into to that what you will.


I'm not gonna give the name of the LCO but they did lay off 20 guys and kept the mexicans for the winter while the americans were on unemployment then they never called us back when we called them they said oh theres no work right now. the co. was also fined $50k for the illegals they had. the bad part is this co. was know for the best quality work now there quality has dropped 60% there putting out more work but not as nice as they used to.

I didnt say they were bad workers but i have no need for them i have plenty of americans that i pay well and take care of i have a 19 year old kid working for me now i have been teaching him everything i know i couldnt ask for a better guy i pay him $12 per hour i could get two mexicans for that. i dont think so i'll stick with the kid.

yes american kids are lazy now days if the parents let them be lazy, my son is 13 he comes with me on weekends he sees how everything is done and i bust his *** i show him what its like to work and he says he enjoys working hard and wants to take over when i'm done.

little green guy
06-28-2003, 02:04 AM
I have Hondorans and Americans working for me. They WORK and they don't complian. We don't use H2B workers here though, most of the guys that come here stay for a while, become legal and then bring thier family over. Most learn some english, some get thier drivers lisence. They get paid on the books and well too. Weather anyone likes it or not Hispanics are keeping this industry afloat. There realy arn't many americans out there to do this work and the ones that are usually are bad workers, unreliable or on drugs, not all ameriacans are bad, there good ones out there, but not many. Hispanics are the way to go.

brucec32
06-28-2003, 04:26 AM
Few will admit this, but low wages relative to the work conditions (hot, dirty, physical work, low advancement potential, limited longevity, seasonality, low status, etc) are a big part of the problem. Of course few hard working Americans will do this kind of work for $8/hour. But I bet you'd have plenty of help at $30/hour. Somewhere in between these two extremes lies the solution, not the temporary expedient of hiring immigrants who would otherwise not choose to live here and who you would otherwise not probably associate with. And of course when the going rate is so far below what other more desireable work pays, you won't have many American applicants with any sense of a work ethic applying. You will, however, get mental rejects, drug addicts, and others who want some work for a day or two, but can't "handle" a real steady job. No wonder your Mexicans and Guatamalans seem so great.

I did shrubs for over an hour today for my usual $60/hour rate for non-mowing stuff, thinking all the time as the sweat poured and my arms ached...."this isn't worth it!" I wonder what the American guy being offered just $10/hour thinks about it?

Oh yeah, some related observations from this week:

1. Bizzarely, I saw not one, but TWO hispanic lawn guys having some sort of "bring your kid to work day" today. Cute. Problem is, in both cases the kids, both about 10, one a girl and one a boy, were barefoot and pushing lawnmowers. Sometimes 3rd world people bring 3rd world values. I guess child safety isn't the big deal it is here in their home countries.

2. Local radio ads are now touting government subsidized mortgages with words like "thanks to Pres. Bush" and, get this...."cash-paid laborers welcome!" FOR A MORTGAGE! Not sure about the details of how they do that. Heck, they say they'll even help you fill out the forms to apply if you don't speak English. Apparently a legitimate self employed businessman can have trouble getting a mortgage since it's harder to prove income , but someone working off the books and getting paid in cash now gets government help (assumedly in the form of loan guarantees) getting his. Vat a country!

3. Worked on a lawn yesterday where 3 hispanic guys were rebuilding a fence. Worked as long as I could on far side to stay out of their way, figuring they would of course notice me and move their stuff out of the way. Asked nicely if they could let me come in and mow around the fence for 2 minutes while they took a break. Checked back, nope, they're not moving. They then rolled a wheelbarrow and a trash barrel full of tools over and deposited it on my side of the lawn, blocking the area I was mowing. Nice guys. They just love us. Oh yeah, they sure spoke English well enough when talking to the homeowner.
(hint: maybe they're nice to you because you're the boss)

4. Saw a Hispanic employee on a Stander mowing the all front lawns in a cluster home neighborhood. I was doign the back lawn for a customer. I was 10 feet away, and intrigued by the mower, so I smiled and waved and motioned for him so I could ask a few questions and visit. Got a nasty glare and some Bermuda clippings on my shoes. Nice Fella. Loves America, obviously.

5. Hispanic guy, just convicted for murdering a local (also hispanic) cop. He was an illegal alien. Whoops.

6. American serial killer from Louisiana on the lam was here in Atlanta and was just recently caught. He was a day laborer. (gee, I wonder why a wanted criminal doesn't want to fill out a W4 form?)

I would like those who pick up day laborers and pay cash to undocumented workers to know how much we appreciate their giving criminals on the lam a source of income so that they don't rob us for the money, and helping hard working but impatient to enter immigrants afford shiny new F250 trucks with murals on the back, and new homes with the money they save paying silly stuff like taxes, social security, or health insurance premiums. I don't mind paying triple when I visit the Hospital, really. After my $500 deductible is met, heck, it only costs me 30% then.

Maybe one day I can return the favor and go visit Mexico and make it more like America, a little at a time.

T.E.
06-28-2003, 11:47 AM
Bruce you couldn't have said it better! I agree whole heartedly great post :)

gusbuster
06-28-2003, 02:21 PM
This subject line is just making me laugh so much.

For a lot of you back east of me, this is a pretty new thing in regards to Hispanics\LATINO.(By the way, I do take offense to that term because if you are of SPANISH heritage, you are Hispanic. The proper term is LATINO). This problem has been going on for over 70 years with the border states such as AZ. TX. Ca. NM.

I said it earlier and will say it again, if you can reduce your cost, have the productivity, aren't you going to make more money for yourself??? You sure can't make money by paying a guy $20 an hour while you the owner are only able to charge $60 an hour. What about your true overhead? maybe out of that $60 an hour your pulling for yourself $18. That's what it been like here in California for years. Now I'm talking only about maintenance and not installs.

The Latino workforce is here to Stay! So, a lot of people better get use to it. What gets me riled though is that people don't respect other human beings. Not all immigrants are bad. The newsies don't report about the guy that stooped a rape by tackling the rapist or the guy who donated 2 years pay to the local catholic church so it could feed the needy. Those are only local news events that will never show up nationally, but rest assured, they do do good things here.

I will say this again also, I don't like them getting freebies due to federal laws, I don't think that they should get medical services for free, only because they don't pay into the system. Should they do that, they deserve what ever help that any American citizen would receive.

John

ProLandscapes
06-28-2003, 02:24 PM
Bruce,

You hit the nail on the head. This country is going to be a third world slum within 50 years, gauranteed. I grew up in Los Angeles, California so I know what we are in for. Although I employ one mexican legally, I think our immigration flood needs to be curbed and enforced by the goverment. We will never see that day though, as long as corrupt politicians run this country.


Josh

CMerLand
06-28-2003, 07:00 PM
Bruce,

Im surprised at your post as after reading most of your others you seem to have some good business sense about you. In every one of your examples, Ive seen the same exact things occur with our american boys. I have a list of ex-employees all born in this country, that of which maybe 5 went on to do anything with their lives. The rest were just passing time on the job and probably still are on someone else's payroll.

The last kid I hired was 22 years and for over a month, I was really impressed with his work and thought maybe perhaps he might be foreman material. I truley liked this kid and liked working with him and his work ablility. Missed only one day in the first month and a half he worked for me, and then came to me and asked if I could write a letter to the court, so they wouldnt revoke his probation, which he didnt mention he was on when I hired him. I wrote a hell of a letter, praising him and he called me that night to let me know that he wasnt going to jail. My thanks? He then went on a crack binge for a week starting the very next day. He finally shows up to pick up his last paycheck, and begssss for his job back. Im like, okay, last chance pal and if you screw this up Im writing another letter to the court explaining whats happened since. He worked one day and hasnt been heard from since.

LEGAL immigrant labor is definately here to stay because these people are willing to leave everything and everyone they know and love behind, to come to a country where they dont speak the language and can earn HALF of what some guys are paying their "gringos" just because they werent blessed to be born in this country. And you think they are taking advantage of the system??? Unlikely as its usually those "American" owners taking advantage of their labor. And it has to be that same AMERICAN owner thats paying them cash so he doesnt have to pay the required payroll taxes and instead put that money in his pocket. They are just like the Italians, the Irish, the Polish and every other immigrant that came here at the beginning of the last century looking for a better future for themselves and their families.

If you reallly want something to worry you and keep you up at night, digest this thought. A few of these immigrants are going to learn the language and the business workings and eventually become LCOS themselves over the next 20 years and will have a HUGE advantage over us Americans because they will fluently speak the language of the future immigants and can say to them clearly, "Look at me and what hard work and dedication can bring in this country." Hell, twenty years from now, this american slackers might be asking those "GUATS" for a job.

Personally, Id like to see the H2B program expanded, so that for every immigrant that gets a work visa in this country, we ship one of the chronically unemployed, drunken or drugged out, cant get up for work in the morning, AMERICAN boys back to the country of the immigrant. Then after 10 months of finding out what a real struggle life is MAYBE they might appreciate all the opportunities this country has to offer and become productive citizens in this country.

Being born in this county doesnt make you a better person then someone who isnt. But it is what you contribute back to this country, by being a productive member of this society and your community that does make this country work.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

CMerrick

LAWNGODFATHER
06-28-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by CMerLand
Bruce,

Im surprised at your post as after reading most of your others you seem to have some good business sense about you. In every one of your examples, Ive seen the same exact things occur with our american boys. I have a list of ex-employees all born in this country, that of which maybe 5 went on to do anything with their lives. The rest were just passing time on the job and probably still are on someone else's payroll.

The last kid I hired was 22 years and for over a month, I was really impressed with his work and thought maybe perhaps he might be foreman material. I truley liked this kid and liked working with him and his work ablility. Missed only one day in the first month and a half he worked for me, and then came to me and asked if I could write a letter to the court, so they wouldnt revoke his probation, which he didnt mention he was on when I hired him. I wrote a hell of a letter, praising him and he called me that night to let me know that he wasnt going to jail. My thanks? He then went on a crack binge for a week starting the very next day. He finally shows up to pick up his last paycheck, and begssss for his job back. Im like, okay, last chance pal and if you screw this up Im writing another letter to the court explaining whats happened since. He worked one day and hasnt been heard from since.

LEGAL immigrant labor is definately here to stay because these people are willing to leave everything and everyone they know and love behind, to come to a country where they dont speak the language and can earn HALF of what some guys are paying their "gringos" just because they werent blessed to be born in this country. And you think they are taking advantage of the system??? Unlikely as its usually those "American" owners taking advantage of their labor. And it has to be that same AMERICAN owner thats paying them cash so he doesnt have to pay the required payroll taxes and instead put that money in his pocket. They are just like the Italians, the Irish, the Polish and every other immigrant that came here at the beginning of the last century looking for a better future for themselves and their families.

If you reallly want something to worry you and keep you up at night, digest this thought. A few of these immigrants are going to learn the language and the business workings and eventually become LCOS themselves over the next 20 years and will have a HUGE advantage over us Americans because they will fluently speak the language of the future immigants and can say to them clearly, "Look at me and what hard work and dedication can bring in this country." Hell, twenty years from now, this american slackers might be asking those "GUATS" for a job.

Personally, Id like to see the H2B program expanded, so that for every immigrant that gets a work visa in this country, we ship one of the chronically unemployed, drunken or drugged out, cant get up for work in the morning, AMERICAN boys back to the country of the immigrant. Then after 10 months of finding out what a real struggle life is MAYBE they might appreciate all the opportunities this country has to offer and become productive citizens in this country.

Being born in this county doesnt make you a better person then someone who isnt. But it is what you contribute back to this country, by being a productive member of this society and your community that does make this country work.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

CMerrick How true, ...........Good written n reading.

NC Big Daddy
06-29-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by brucec32
Maybe one day I can return the favor and go visit Mexico and make it more like America, a little at a time.

From reading your post you have no experience running multiple crews or even a helper. So stick to what you know......I'll keep on the look out for your reply on "How to get the most from the little old Lady" post.

battags
06-29-2003, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Green Goblin
Like it or not most americans are lazy. I'm going to mexican labor force next year myself



What is most? 80%? 65%? By your statement, 51% would be most, correct? Have you met most of us?

This forum is pretty diverse. We are all from all different backgrounds, regions, religions, education, etc. We all work in the same business...that is our common thread. Are 51% of us lazy?

I'm not pissed at you, Goblin, I'm just tired of having to defend my country to other people, let alone other Americans. I just wish you could qualify that statement before 'firing from the hip'. We are the GREATEST nation in the world! We did not get here by "most" of us being lazy!

Now, if you mean that most Americans don't realize how well they have it compared to the rest of the world, I agree. If you mean that ambitious Latinos you have met work harder than several of your current, or previous employees, fine. Don't forget to figure that the ambitious Latinos aren't going to be sitting on their arse in Mexico! So, if your going to a 'Mexican labor force' next year, don't go south of the border to recruit!

BRL
06-30-2003, 05:21 PM
"(By the way, I do take offense to that term because if you are of SPANISH heritage, you are Hispanic. The proper term is LATINO)."

Actually, according to Webster's; Hispanic - adj. 1. Spanish, or Spanish-and-Portuguese 2. of or relating to Hispanics - n. a Spanish speaking person of Latin American origin who lives in the US

Latino is not listed in my version of Webster's, which leads me to believe that it is a slang word possibly. I take offense to the use of the word Latino for Hispanics.

cajuncutter
06-30-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by gusbuster
AL Inc,
The difference between your grand parents,my parents is: they eventually became part of the great tax system that most of love to pay into.

Most of the guys don't have any interest in setting roots in our soil. They just want to make money here, build there house, support their families and eventually live like kings south of the border.

I don't have a problem with any immigrant doing a job that 98% of Americans don't want to do because it's dirty, smelly etc..

The problems i have:
No intention of paying into the system or becoming part of the system.

As to what was originally posted about the hiring of Hispanics over American born: I'm in business to make a profit, so if I can get a guy that can produce the same that a higher paid person is doing at a cheaper rate, why not go with the cheaper cost person.

Before anybody says something, our family has Hispanics that have been with my dad's and uncles companies over 15 years, and my main guy over 10.
John

Where some of that may be true, like living like kings in the off season etc. , when one is working in the U.S. for an extended period of time on a work visa IE. GREEN CARD, they are paying in taxes. If you are not reporting taxes on a temporary or permanent resident you will be in deep dung!! My wife is not a U.S. citizen and believe me she pays taxes like the rest of us.

As far as one being pissed off about Mexicans in the labor force, well take a good look at the future coming up. All these kids are lazy, parents make them get a job during the summer while either in high school or college for that matter. Half the time they do not show up. I have friends that have business's ranging from retail to labor and the biggest problem seems to be work ethic. Hispanics will work all day long with a smile and give no complaints where as some of these lazy kids will come up with excuses as to why they need to be off by 2pm etc. If a person was canned from a company only to be replaced by a Hispanic worker then I say you were not doing your job.

Speedy
06-30-2003, 06:50 PM
Well I must say that I'm surprised at what I've been reading. To comment to you that own your on LCO. Is it possible that the Latinos, Mexicans or what ever else you wish to call them could wind up owning their on company. Heaven forbid it would be in your area and all of a sudden you wonder where your customers went. Work them and teach them and then the teacher becomes the student. Oh yea, don't blame our kids for being lazy. We can blame ourselves for letting them. Sorry if I offended anyone, but enough is enough..Shut the borders.

AztlanLC
06-30-2003, 06:51 PM
As a mexican sometimes I get offended at how people blame anybody else for their misfortune, they keep claiming we're stealing their jobs, even tought they don't want to perform it.

I've been in this country for about 12 years now, I have to admited I came here illegally, but I have paid my dues and have never take anything for free, I worked pretty hard for 7 years before owning my own company, for those who says we don't contribute to this country, let me tell you that I have spend most of my hard earned money in here, because I was given the opportunity to become a resident, which is not usually given to anybody, how you expect someone to contribute to this country when they're not supposet to exist in it, we're allowed to work in this country and pay taxes and SS. even tought we'll never see anything back until we become legal, which doesn't happen too often and in some cases never, I'm not saying we should be allowed to get our working permit without any sacrifice, but at least I think the H2B program is a good thing, because people are only allowed to stay here for the season end then they have get back, which means they won't collect unemployment.

I respect everybody doesn't matter race or religion, but at the same time I ask for respect for myself, currently I employ 4 people of which only one is american, hard working, the company where I use to work went trought dozen of americans and only kept few, most don't like the demanding needs of this industry, is hard to do this part time or few day a week, but it's harder to do it everyday, and then have to deal with weather conditions, have to work 70-80 hour a week sometimes, then have to do it in 100+ degrees, have to work some sundays because rain 3 days in a row, that's the main reason americans don't like this job and I don't blame'em, they want a 40 hour job and then saturday and sunday off, and if it rains they like because they don't have to work, ooh but don't mention to them that following day they have to work extra hours, it's so many reason for anybody not to like this job, but I have found that most hispanic labor they don't complaing.

We all have the right to express ourselfs and this is the way I see things, some might agree or disagree but I wouldn't try to change anybody's mind.

gusbuster
06-30-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by BRL
[B Latino is not listed in my version of Webster's, which leads me to believe that it is a slang word possibly. I take offense to the use of the word Latino for Hispanics. [/B]

There are many words used everyday that were once slang terms but are commonly used in every day use of spoken American English. It's just hasn't been posted yet to a printed verion of a dictionary.

By the way, go to the eletronic version of Merriam-Webster and you would find the difinition of Latino. It's there so I guess I wasn't using slang. I would post the link, but I would hate to abuse this sites policy (lawnsite.com)of using copyrighted material without owners consent.
John

brucec32
06-30-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by CMerLand
Bruce,

Im surprised at your post as after reading most of your others you seem to have some good business sense about you. In every one of your examples, Ive seen the same exact things occur with our american boys. I have a list of ex-employees all born in this country, that of which maybe 5 went on to do anything with their lives. The rest were just passing time on the job and probably still are on someone else's payroll.

The last kid I hired was 22 years and for over a month, I was really impressed with his work and thought maybe perhaps he might be foreman material. I truley liked this kid and liked working with him and his work ablility. Missed only one day in the first month and a half he worked for me, and then came to me and asked if I could write a letter to the court, so they wouldnt revoke his probation, which he didnt mention he was on when I hired him. I wrote a hell of a letter, praising him and he called me that night to let me know that he wasnt going to jail. My thanks? He then went on a crack binge for a week starting the very next day. He finally shows up to pick up his last paycheck, and begssss for his job back. Im like, okay, last chance pal and if you screw this up Im writing another letter to the court explaining whats happened since. He worked one day and hasnt been heard from since.

LEGAL immigrant labor is definately here to stay because these people are willing to leave everything and everyone they know and love behind, to come to a country where they dont speak the language and can earn HALF of what some guys are paying their "gringos" just because they werent blessed to be born in this country. And you think they are taking advantage of the system??? Unlikely as its usually those "American" owners taking advantage of their labor. And it has to be that same AMERICAN owner thats paying them cash so he doesnt have to pay the required payroll taxes and instead put that money in his pocket. They are just like the Italians, the Irish, the Polish and every other immigrant that came here at the beginning of the last century looking for a better future for themselves and their families.

If you reallly want something to worry you and keep you up at night, digest this thought. A few of these immigrants are going to learn the language and the business workings and eventually become LCOS themselves over the next 20 years and will have a HUGE advantage over us Americans because they will fluently speak the language of the future immigants and can say to them clearly, "Look at me and what hard work and dedication can bring in this country." Hell, twenty years from now, this american slackers might be asking those "GUATS" for a job.

Personally, Id like to see the H2B program expanded, so that for every immigrant that gets a work visa in this country, we ship one of the chronically unemployed, drunken or drugged out, cant get up for work in the morning, AMERICAN boys back to the country of the immigrant. Then after 10 months of finding out what a real struggle life is MAYBE they might appreciate all the opportunities this country has to offer and become productive citizens in this country.

Being born in this county doesnt make you a better person then someone who isnt. But it is what you contribute back to this country, by being a productive member of this society and your community that does make this country work.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

CMerrick

Read my post again. I don't disagree with what you said. American young people are generally lazy. But my point was, if I didn't make it clear, that even hard working people are not going to do this work for the current low wages being paid (YES, even $12/hour isn't the "great pay" some think it is"...try living a responsible life on that kind of pay...do YOU want to share a home with 4 or 5 other adults?). The wages are low relative to other fields because of one reason. Immigration. The IMMIGRANT is not the bad guy here, though breaking any laws should not be glossed over. The guy who HIRES THEM is the real black hat . But unless you believe that America can support an ever growing population of newcomers to do our work, this is a short term fix. Our population has doubled within a single lifetime, traffic jams are the norm, pollution clouds our cities, and much of the problem is a population growing out of control. If you want to see teeming cities like New Delhi, India, in the USA, just keep encouraging mass immigration to provide labor.

You're right. They many of them will learn the language, and have a huge language and cultural advantage hiring their fellow immigrants, and will put many native american operations out of business over time if the immigration wave continues. You may be able to hire immigrants, but their fellow countrymen can offer them cultural advantages to the job that you can't. Go ask contractors in the construction business how that's been working out for them since Latino business owners have been here long enough to start their own outfits and drive longtime American contractors out of the business by undercutting prices.

You're also right that being born here doesn't make anyone any better. I was merely trying to disabuse some people of the quaint notion that all who come here just love America and are somehow more noble and hard working than we are. They work harder for less because they come from a place where relative wages are much lower and they value a job more than the typical American slacker who gets given half what he has. But they're not all princes by any means, and many harbor justified anger towards us and want only our dinero, not our way of life. They resent being treated as untouchables, good only for some grunt labor. When's the last time any of you had an illegal immigrant day laborer over for dinner? Or proudly had one date your daughter? Lots of hypocrites out there. It's just as ignorant to say they're all great as for a Klansman to say they're all inferior. Give it a generation or two and they'll be "americanized" and the work ethic people love so will fade. Meanwhile, while losing their hard-working values, many will remain uneducated, unpatriotic, and as unable or unwilling to support themselves and the current "American" underclass is today.

Some corrections, though. Read your history a little deeper. The last "great wave" of immigration caused its own problems. I think the movie "gangs of new york" may have been about some of this

brucec32
06-30-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by NC Big Daddy
From reading your post you have no experience running multiple crews or even a helper. So stick to what you know......I'll keep on the look out for your reply on "How to get the most from the little old Lady" post.

Nah, I was just operations manager for a million dollar company and had 40 employees, including 6 in management. That's all. Way to counter hard facts and a good argument with a quick unthinking comment, though. It suits you. But hey, If you can't counter an argument, just hurl an insult, right?

mtdman
06-30-2003, 11:00 PM
Some guy in Detroit got busted for hiring Hispanic immigrant workers and bringing them here from Mexico, and then putting them up in HORRIBLE living conditions and letting them go just short of some deadline which would allow them to stay in the US. Paid them ****, treated them like ****.

As far as immigration goes, the country isn't as wide open as it was in the 1800s and 1900s, I am all for immigration limits. There are only so many people this nation can afford to support, and we simply can't be the America of the 19th and 20th century with letting everyone into the country.

Just my 2 cents.

polecat63
06-30-2003, 11:16 PM
I think all you guys hiring Hispanics (Latino) workers is great. I think you should hire more. I just got two large commercial accounts this year doing common areas for high end residential communities. Wanna know why I got 'em? The homeowners were getting upset because every time they went to talk to the work crew, and even though the foreman supposedly spoke fluent English, it was always " Me no speak english." I guess that is one way to handle complaints and hide shoddy work. I have friends that have worked for the larger companies in the area for years that suddenly lost their jobs only to see crews of Mexicans a week later. The good news is that most of these guys have started their own businesses and are kickin' butt.
And then their is the local company that is now being sued by it's former Mexican work force. Seems that these guys didn't like being shacked up in the company warehouse with 30 - 40 of their countrymen. Oh, it was okay as long as they were getting a pay check, but in hindsight they need a million or so dollars to make themselves feel better.
The immigrant work force cost this country millions in lost tax revenues, medical care and now we have to educate their illegal children as well. Now they are suing past employers because they didn't bring them back the next season. Is your company next?

SuperLawn
07-01-2003, 02:34 AM
I like to listened Latin music when I am in Lawnsite.com

I have a couple of questions

Which the difference is between an AMERICAN and a LATINOS using the uniform of the MARINES?

Do you believe that the bullets of the Iraqis recognize the difference?

Why those dead Latinos in the war of Iraq have not been able to obtain the citizenship? If they are not American why they are fighting for this country? (FOR YOU)

Where you have been when we put ours life for this country without being AMERICAN? (IRAQ WAR)

Let us honor all the races of this world, and live on PEACE

GOOD BLESS AMERICA AND LATINOS

Phishook
07-01-2003, 03:23 AM
A lot of good and stupid coments here.

Not that I'm experienced in this area.

GarPA
07-01-2003, 06:34 AM
25 years ago I worked 5 seasons for a local landscape architect. I remember like it was yesterday, how they had trouble keeping people. And the few that did stay on had their own problems . As one of you said, the work is hard, and the hours long in all kinds of weather. In the last couple of years I've lost count of how many young Americans I've hired only to have them quit in a week or 2.For 8 to 10 dollars an hour and with really no future, what do we expect? We the owners are the only ones making a decent living and look at the hours we put in. I happen to love this work so I dont mind the hours and the hard work.

Mexicans in the landscape business is no different than the migrant workers who have picked our fruit for us for decades.
Why are so many Mexicans harvesting our crops? Because we Americans wont work that hard for low wages, seasonal employment, and the requirement to move from state to state to follow the harvest schedule. 25 years later nothing has changed....finding good help in our business might be the greatest impediment to all of us taking our businesses to the next level. Just last week 2 of my best workers were whining all day every day about how hot it was...I told them that if I can do it at over twice their ages, they can too. Yesterday one of them quit. He's taking a dollar less per hour to run a forklift inside, out of the elements. He said the work was too hard for what he was making....and I frankly don't blame him.

MOW ED
07-01-2003, 07:52 AM
Now don't get the wrong idea here but many of us are looking at this from being the owner of the company.

Truthfully ask what you are offering a "kid" today. Some of them see the opportunity to work outside attractive, some are good kids that do want to learn but they are few and far between. There are bad workers regardless of ethnic origin.
But take the regular kid that wants to do something with his life. A job mowing or landscaping is gonna be a temporary thing for many young people. They see it as money for a car, beer money, etc. I will tell you that they do not see it as a career or a means to keep eating.
Put yourself in a workers position and ask yourself if at the pay rate that you pay(yes include all the benefits) is enough to make you want to stay until retirement.
Even if you are paying 12.00 an hour it isn't gonna be that attractive. Now take the hungry person who may be an immigrant. That 12 bucks will make him appear to be a millionaire in his country. It also may afford him a good living in his culture here in the states. (sorry ladies I use the word him but take it as genderless)
People that are hungry will do what they have to do. Hungry is used in the broadest sense. If your back is to the wall you do what you have to do to make it. The people that make a living in the landscape industry are you and I. The "kids" that we encounter are either not hungry or not interested because they don't see a career, think that physical work is not fun, have no buy in to the job or are testing the job waters amongst many other reasons.
The H2b worker knows what it is like to be hungry, just like my grandparents did when they came from Poland. Don't blame the immigrant, they want the same thing we all do. If they are lere legally or not they have the same basic needs as you and I but they are starting at the most basic level. The need to eat and survive. Most kids have those needs met so they are more selective in what they want to do. It is a sign of the times that WE created.

Regardless of how bad the economy seems to be here in America, it is infinately better than living anywhere else in the world. Everyone wants to do better for themselves and their family, this is the premise of living in a free country. Have a safe and happy 4th of July.

lawnworker
07-01-2003, 10:00 AM
If they are illegal, people should not hire them. Breaking the law is wrong, and it should be enforced.

If young Americans don't want to do this work for low pay, it is time to rethink pricing structure from one man shows to big outfits.

It might just be the hot, hard, work though. Who can blame somebody for wanting to get a masters degree and receive a job paying $30.00 per hour with retirement benefits, which allows you to wear nice clothes all day as opposed to working in the glaring sun all day. Hmmm imagine that

Scraper
07-01-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER
Ditto.

Upset or not, they are here to fill the labor shortage the USA has.



There wouldn't be a labor shortage if the 9 million unemployed Americans got off their asses and did something other than look for their niche job.

Phishook
07-01-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Scraper
There wouldn't be a labor shortage if the 9 million unemployed Americans got off their asses and did something other than look for their niche job.

But why look for a job when you can get $300-400 for not having a job?

Heck I hear of guys hireing the unemploied all the time and paying them cash so they can still get thier unempliment ceck. They have to know that these guys arn't going to stay arround. When thier six mounths are up, they'll be out of there.

But anyway, I kind of like Lawn and Landscape.

Remsen1
07-01-2003, 05:54 PM
Its sounds like the Mexicans have hurt the profitability of being a white laborer, the same way lawn scrubs can hurt the profitability of being a Legit LCO in the scrubs' area.

The over availability of cheap labor hurts the american economy in the area as a whole. Yes, the business owner profits, but it causes more american families to be in financial distress. This is not good for local economy.

I think the legalizing of this over abundance of labor is irresponsible. Somebody is making a lot of money for helping this act to pass.

This legalization will also put a strain on LCOs cause now the LCOs will have to hire cheap labor if they are to compete. I hope none of you think this is a good thing cause the next iteration will be Mexicans owning their own LCO's based in Mexico (thus avoiding the tax burden that we are subject to). They can operate at a lower cost steal your customers and drive the other LCO's in the area out. If they do decent work they'll get your commercial customers first cause business owners are in business to make money, they'll look at their bottom line before they give a darn about you.

lawnworker
07-01-2003, 07:05 PM
Phishook, does unemployment really pay $400 per week.

GarPA
07-01-2003, 09:19 PM
Illegals aren't the problem...what we pay our grunt workers is.

Like I said, the land grunts are still at the low end of the pay scale just as they were 25 years ago. Wages for our worker bees franky ....suck.

gusbuster
07-01-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by GarPA
Illegals aren't the problem...what we pay our grunt workers is.

Like I said, the land grunts are still at the low end of the pay scale just as they were 25 years ago. Wages for our worker bees franky ....suck.

GarPA
It's not what we pay our grunts, it's what our clients are will to pay us so we can pay for help.

Second, I do pay my workers a lot better than what they would make at McDonald's or Burger King. You have to in this area if you want somebody reliable. The cost of living is so high here that the grunts are leaving this area.

John

dvmcmrhp52
07-02-2003, 12:54 AM
to maclawn co.
You are telling people how to take price and do your work because if you did not you would soon be out of business
because the newbies like me would under price you every time!!

LAWNGODFATHER
07-02-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
to maclawn co.
You are telling people how to take price and do your work because if you did not you would soon be out of business
because the newbies like me would under price you every time!! First off I don't get what you are saying in the first part, however the second part, is stupid is as stupid does.

Being new doesn't mean you need to lowball or underbid> Heck I bet you don't even know what to price.

BTW I have Mexican labor....... My price did not drop..

I got sick of filtering through the Americans to find ones that don't drink 2 cases of beer a day, that don't use drugs much less off the job, that don't have attitude problems, that don't think they know it all, that don't lie cheat or steel from you, that don't milk the clock, etc etc etc.......

Time is money and my time is worth much more than the guy who will stay 1-2 day if that cause the work is to hard and the hours are to long.

dvmcmrhp52
07-02-2003, 08:39 PM
lawngodfather,
it is just that kind of attitude that tells me I can take business away from others because being new does not make you stupid.
only stupid people think people are stupid.as for pricing I do know how to price,It came with the education.
since this is not the kind of attitude I am looking for I won't respond to any others of this kind.

philk17088
07-02-2003, 09:07 PM
Now all you wizzbang business men throw around cost savings, true overhead,etc,etc, does that include not paying workmen's comp? Unemployment taxes? Social security? Just sounds like your trying to skirt the laws of the land,

I wouldn't want to work for you either if you only were looking for the cheapest possible way of getting labor.

What a lowballing -scrub way to be.

Rhett
07-02-2003, 09:12 PM
In my area the Hispanic help figured rather quickly that they could not make enough at the wages that were offered, even living 13 or so in a two bedroom apartment. When they became a little more expensive to hire many of the major companies began bringing in labor from the former eastern block countries, African countries may parts of South America . This is not just in our industry but most of the service industry. With the influx of cheap labor our wages have not increased in years. In fact many have dropped. Why pay someone half of what they are worth when you can stack people in sub standard housing and pay them even less, while deducting from their meager pay for rent. Kind of reminds me of an indentured servant. Our children know that when they are done with school that to make a decent living they have to go else where. Skilled tradesman top out at about 12 bucks an hour. I question why anyone with something on the ball would want to work for these low wages bought about by cheap imported labor. Never own a house, decent car or any part of the American dream. Some reason the end just does not justify the means.:(

dvmcmrhp52
07-02-2003, 09:53 PM
Phil,
Don't know if I would have said it in the same way but I do like your attitude.Live the dream while creating it for others as well!

Rhett
07-02-2003, 11:31 PM
Dang thought I would see replies about how hard the imported labor works and how they are saving the industry:confused:

LAWNGODFATHER
07-02-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Rhett
Dang thought I would see replies about how hard the imported labor works and how they are saving the industry:confused: You lost them....

dvmcmrhp52; You lost me again, heck don't know what you are saying, but underbid to get jobs, scrubs, are you one of these?

H2B labor does not mean not paying taxes or WC. or because of low wages, you must qualify to even be eligible for it. H2b is to suppliment labor shortages. If you would have read my post about sifting through American trash, you might of caught that.

Before you insult due to lack of knowledge do some research so you have a small clue to what you are even going to be debating.

4 posts 4 different insults. BTW welcome to Lawnsite.

dvmcmrhp52
07-02-2003, 11:48 PM
dear lawn godfather,
you should try reading who the post is directed towards!!!then it will make sense.no insults anywhere in anything I have said.

LAWNGODFATHER
07-02-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
lawngodfather,
it is just that kind of attitude that tells me I can take business away from others because being new does not make you stupid.
only stupid people think people are stupid.as for pricing I do know how to price,It came with the education.
since this is not the kind of attitude I am looking for I won't respond to any others of this kind. Stupid is as stupid does was for lowballing to get biz.

"only stupid people think people are stupid" seems to be an insult.

Attitude.........well don't criticize what you haven't got a clue about.

Originally posted by MacLawnCo
Although i know French well, I'm still taking Spanish classes for one reason. Take a guess why. If i ever have the need for employees, they will definitely be Hispanic. Being that is the only post in this thread from him, I am having trouble figuring out what you are trying to say, but I got the gist of it.

Nothing wrong with learning Spanish, I wish I took it in school. I have had a crash course in it though. Sounds like smart planning also. Hey you might not like that fact immigrants are coming to our country for jobs, but beware what happened with your ancestors less than 100 years ago?

dvmcmrhp52
07-03-2003, 12:04 AM
Sorry I do have A clue.as for lowballing that was a generalization of what new people ALWAYS do.As for attitude just one more time for sanity's sake if you think because you have been in business longer than someone else that you are beyond learning from a NEWBEE just ask IBM about a guy named Bill Gates!

LAWNGODFATHER
07-03-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
to maclawn co.
You are telling people how to take price and do your work because if you did not you would soon be out of business
because the newbies like me would under price you every time!! I must be reading this ALL wrong then huh?

dvmcmrhp52
07-03-2003, 12:12 AM
not going to argue aint worth the trouble. talk to you later

dvmcmrhp52
07-03-2003, 12:16 AM
sorry im wrong it is not a post from him it is part of his format with a quote about not wanting to tell new people how to do business

LAWNGODFATHER
07-03-2003, 12:17 AM
OK I got it now..........:cool:

dvmcmrhp52
07-03-2003, 12:22 AM
:D

greenman
07-03-2003, 12:29 AM
dvmcmrhp52(BTW, what does that stand for?)- I never went and underbid (lowballed) someone just for the business. That is not good practice. Price yourself right out of business that way. I'm not saying not to be cheaper than anyone, because a newbie can afford to be cheaper because of smaller and/or less equipment, no employees,etc,...... but quoting/bidding a job lower ON PURPOSE just to get that account? I would never do that. If that certain account needs some attention (sloppiness, etc.), then persue that account, but sell yourself and your services, not lowball yourself.

dvmcmrhp52
07-03-2003, 12:35 AM
I agree 100 percent, personally I would never purposefully lowball a job to get it from someone else or just to get a job.I dont like working for free.

dvmcmrhp52
07-03-2003, 12:37 AM
dvmcmr is just a screen name the hp52 is one of my exmarks

deere ZTR
07-03-2003, 01:25 AM
Why would you want Mexicans working for you in the first place? I'm not saying this is true of all of them but most do not speak very good english are not good for customer relations and most customers would rather not have them in their yard. It just seems that in the time you spend trying to teach imported labor something or explain some thing to them you just as well have paid more money to an american and got it right the first time. Why does everybody on here think that american youth is lazy? They arent granted maybe 20% are but not the rest the rest just arent stupid enough to work for chicken scratch and want to be paid for what they are worth. Most of americas youth will bust *** at work around here but they have to get paid decent other wise you get the lazy druged out idiots that should be working at a telemarketing office.

LAWNGODFATHER
07-03-2003, 02:46 AM
When was the last time you placed a help wanted ad?

I am not paying $18 an hour to listen to some one ***** moan whine and complain about work. "My toe hurts, I can't work today" "I gotta get off earily today, I need to pick up my dime bag" "It's to hot out today, I can't work" Etc... you've heard them all before, I know I have.

You can keep it. And I thought of all the same problems as you posted and more, and yet haven't had one of them, mush less have to solve any of them.

I had 1 complaint in the almost 2 years I have had them, and it didn't matter if it was a mexican or not.

I wish I would have gotten them a long time ago.


I have one white American that works for me, and he will bust his tail all day with the mexicans. He don't know a lick of spanish either and has no problem communicating.

I have also found they learn much faster than the applicats I have had. I love the guy who I explain the whole deal to and tell him he will be working 10 hours when he comes in, sorry sap finds himself walking home 2-3 hours into the day, this aint for me.

Nobody wants to work for peanuts.

CMerLand
07-03-2003, 10:06 PM
Before this thread died out completely, I wanted to quickly add something to the conversation since it got way off topic towards the end and started to sound like American bashing.

I hope this is able to better change the perspective of those of us who were discusing the situation, as someone explained it to me to change my perspective.

It never helps to talk in absolutes, that all americans are lousy laborers and all hispanics are great, but try to realize the following.

The best and brightest of American kids are not going to be persuing jobs in this industry, because of the long hours, the hard work and the relatively low wages. The best of american workers are going to pursue the white and blue collar jobs or look for work in the trades such as masons, plumbers electrician etc. Thats going to leave our industry with the "damaged goods" kids who've lost there licenses, cant get up for work, are lazy and never sat down and really thought about working towards a career path.

Now lets look at the Hispanic workers who come into this country. These guys are USUALLY the cream of the crop in their own countries Why?? Because they looked around at their country and said to themselves, "SELF, there isnt **** here in this country where I can make myself enough money to support myself and my family the way I want too. Now in America they have tons of jobs and work, where I can make way more money in a day then I can in a week here at home. Sure I have to sacrifice seeing my family, I dont speak the language and Im going to have to take a meanial job, but if I work hard enough, and long enough, I will learn the language, become a crew leader, and eventually have enough money to bring my family up to join me in that great country."

Now I can absolutely assure you all that back in the little towns where these guys left from, the ones who stay and are willing to accept life as it is, are not the risk takers, the entrepeneours or those willing to sacrifice to make their lives better. And Im also certain that way on down the line of those who work, you will find guys who are way lazier, more drugged out and absolutely lost souls who will never achieve anything in their lives.


Anyone want to disagree with this????

MJM
07-03-2003, 11:35 PM
Chris you hit it on the head.

I keep hearing about cheapabor here. I guess this opinion us coming from owners who do not employ hispanic labor. Hispanics may or may not speak our language but they are NOT DUMB. They know what they can and cannot earn here. I, personally pay my hispanics MORE than I ever paid gringos. Why? Because they are worth it! The days are gone driving to work hoping everyone will show up.

Do you know what I used to do? I used to have 3 man crews for 2 men worth of work!! Why? Because I feared someone not showing up!! How smart is that? I had a gringo tell me to start paying them $5 a day to show up on time. I have heard of other companies doing such a practise. Why!!!! Tell me 1 good reason why I should have to PAY you to show up on time!!! That is your JOB!!!

Oh well, I could go on and on this topic, but I think the main problem is people who are opposed to the idea really do not have the true facts. They are not paid less, they are not the ones driving the price down , the owners drive the price down by underbidding and honestly most do not have a clue about true cost of doing buisness.

Mark

John Allin
07-04-2003, 09:29 AM
It's not the same Bruce......

jlcare
07-04-2003, 11:54 AM
All I got to say is I agree with bruce32

Ferngolf
08-13-2003, 04:11 PM
I have a new landscaping company in North Jersey and for the first year hired a few guys with suspect papers. Sure they looked good, license, ss card and immigration card, but deep down inside I knew they were not legitimate. I enrolled in the H2B program and brought in labor from another country. I cant begin to tell you the feelings of pride my crew has knowing they are here to work legally year after year. I know that my guys will be back on March 1 of next year, and you what, I wont have to retrain them time after time. The posts that I read ahead of this reply are both educated and flat out wrong. OF COURSE WE WOULD ALL LIKE TO HAVE 20 YEAR OLD, ENGLISH SPEAKING, VALID DRIVERS LICENCE, HARD WORKING, AND THANKFUL TO HAVE A JOB YOUNG AMERICANS DOING THIS WORK WITH US!!!!! They are not out there. To participate in the H2B program you must do several things, and one of them is to put an ad in the local newspaper for your specific labor need at a wage the state tells you to advertise. If you do not get a response from the ad, or enough responses to fill you labor need, you then can go on to the next step, which is dealing with The Bureau of Homeland Security. On and on it goes. And lets not forget how easy it is dealing with government agencies. Paperwork, clerks, deadlines, etc. Not very easy. But, I will do it year after year after year. I am a business person first, and because of that I must do what is right for my business. As a matter of fact, a few other companies have taken notice of the way my company is operating and asked me what I attribute it to, and it really comes back to my labor force and the H-2B program. Oh, and by the way, I am now enrolling several of these other companies in the program. They are not looking to REPLACE THE AMERICANS, but put together a labor force that will be there, year after year.
Itís a great program, please email me with questions. ferngolf@optonline.net

Rhett
08-13-2003, 09:36 PM
Heard it all! We can no longer employ people from our own country because they do not work, show up, blah blah blah. Check out page 90 of the latest lawn and landscape. Laywer add: Having problems finding minumum or low wage workers? For 2500 bucks they will help you get H2B or A workers. Disclaimer Does not iclude bus fare<INS and required newspaper adds. Why would you want to do this type of work and not be able to afford a decent place to live. Hey, how about maybe food and a car to get to work. We have created our own labor crisis. Think from now on this publication will be demoted from toilet material to fire starter

maple city
08-13-2003, 10:22 PM
Our city is becoming a very run-down area because of a big boost in the Mexican population. We have very little industry left here, and the few factories here hire Mexican labor becuase they will work dirt cheap. There are 10-20 people living in one house, hanging out on the porches. The don't mow their lawns or take care of their own living space. They drive down the property values (Who wants to live next to that?!?) They do nothing good for our city. They have such a lack of respect for our Country - they won't even bother to learn our language.

There are plenty of American men and women who are willing to work who are unemployed right now. I find it very hard to believe that no one can find an American that will do the work as well as a Mexican. What the bottom line is here is $$$. Why pay $10.00/hr. when you can find someone who will work for $5.00? Americans cannot support a family on the wages that the companies are paying. The companies are able to pay the low wages because they can hire Mexicans to do the work. Americans make demands that the Mexicans won't - breaks, good wages, benefits. Why would any employer want to put up with all those demands of the American workers?

Other people can hire them if they want to, I never will. I won't contribut to the demise of our country. In a few years, we'll have to rename it Meximerica. :blob2:


This post is in no way directed toward Mexican-American citizens who speak our language, respect our flag, respect our culture and want to make the United States a great place to live.

jasond
08-13-2003, 11:29 PM
FYI.

Simple economics are at work here...supply and demand. All day long I fight the battle of being an established lawn care company that offers full service.

Next door to one of my accounts is a young Hispanic who has saved enough money for a truck, trailer, walk-behind, and such. I quoted a price of 26 dollars per-cut, which was a good deal. The young Hispanic quoted 20 dollars per-cut. After several months of seeing him do a pretty good job, I approached the owner and asked him how things were. I also asked if Juan had general liability insurance, offered health insurance to his employees, or provided education assistance to his employees.

The response from the owner was..."I don't know, and it doesn't really matter."

So. A week ago, Juan does two things. First, he hit the Backflow preventer to the irrigation system with his mower, causing water to leak. (How do we know this...cause the backflow pipe has red paint and black tire scuffs on it from his mower hitting it) The backflow preventer broke, and its location was uphill from the house, in between the garage and the entry way. That water built up for a good while...in fact, so long that the water entered the home through the front door. (The crawlspace vents were closed...not allowing the water to flow under the house. (from a 1" pipe without pressure/flow reducing)

Well...the owner was in Austin TX for two weeks. My customer asked me why there was so much water in her backyard (we have had rain...but the water stops draining within a few hours)
So, I walked over to the back of the house and see water literally draining from the kitchen sliding glass door. I then walk around the house to the front and find about 3 feet of water standing in a pool by the front door.

Well, I shut the water meter off. My guess is that Juan hit the BFP on a Thursday...this was the following Monday. It rained from Thursday night to Monday morning (~11 inches).

It gets better....my customer calls his work, and finally gets him on the phone. He arrives that evening and nearly dies when seeing the amount of damage in his house (did I mention that these are 500K homes???)

He calls Juan, my customer and I are standing there. He literally couldn't handle it all. I have never heard a person shriek profanities in such a short timeframe...it scared me!

After a few minutes of his muttering...he laughed and said that Juan had raised the price to $25 per-cut a month ago because he wasn't making any money.

Awful, huh? Cheap bast@rd. All I could do was look at him and think that he got his dollars worth.

The estimate to repair the damage is close to 42K, not sure if that includes fixing the BFP??? The owner's insurance agent is not wanting to pay the claim (on his homeowner's insurance) and is stating that this person is considered an employee of the owners, especially since he wrote the checks to 'Juan Salazzar' .

Just so has it that Juan can't be reached anymore, the person who answers the phone he had says he went back to Mexico.

I guess in a few more weeks I will see if my $30 per-cut price is reasonable. Of course, if anything were to happen, he could file a claim, sue me, pretty much screw me for life.

When that happens, the person who answers my phone will say that I went to Mexico.

LAWNGODFATHER
08-14-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by maple city
Our city is becoming a very run-down area because of a big boost in the Mexican population. We have very little industry left here, and the few factories here hire Mexican labor becuase they will work dirt cheap. There are 10-20 people living in one house, hanging out on the porches. The don't mow their lawns or take care of their own living space. They drive down the property values (Who wants to live next to that?!?) They do nothing good for our city. They have such a lack of respect for our Country - they won't even bother to learn our language.

There are plenty of American men and women who are willing to work who are unemployed right now. I find it very hard to believe that no one can find an American that will do the work as well as a Mexican. What the bottom line is here is $$$. Why pay $10.00/hr. when you can find someone who will work for $5.00? Americans cannot support a family on the wages that the companies are paying. The companies are able to pay the low wages because they can hire Mexicans to do the work. Americans make demands that the Mexicans won't - breaks, good wages, benefits. Why would any employer want to put up with all those demands of the American workers?

Other people can hire them if they want to, I never will. I won't contribut to the demise of our country. In a few years, we'll have to rename it Meximerica. :blob2:


This post is in no way directed toward Mexican-American citizens who speak our language, respect our flag, respect our culture and want to make the United States a great place to live. And you have the nerve to blame this on a race.......

Did I see your ancestors were American Indians?

For me it's not what I pay, it's the constant baby sitting the whining, the well the list goes on......

I have paid $18-$20 an hour and got less work from then that everyone who was paid considerably less than him.

It aint the pay either.

Sorry but I believe your post was made in haste, not out of years of getting screwed by worthless employees.

Yall want to stay solo or 1-2 crews, all you're doing is buying yourself a job.

maple city
08-14-2003, 01:43 AM
And you have the nerve to blame this on a race.......

I can only report what I see. I can give you photos of the houses and people I'm talking about and the conditions that they decide to live in.

Did I see your ancestors were American Indians?

My ancestors were in the Country prior to 1700. They have served and died in almost every war this country has fought. I think my family has paid their dues and can rightfully call themselves Americans.


Sorry but I believe your post was made in haste, not out of years of getting screwed by worthless employees.

My post was not made in haste. I've not been screwed over by worthless EMPLOYEES, but worthless EMPLOYERS. You know, the ones who don't pay a decent wage because they can find someone else to work cheaper. I've watched friends and family lose their homes becuase they can't get a decent paying job around here anymore.

Could ANYONE is this forum raise a family on minimum wage?? NO. We get so mad when we are underbid by a Scrub in the business. But by hiring scrub labor, you are underbidding every working person in this Country. People in this Counrtry have fought for years to make businesses pay their employees a good wage. They have fought for benefits, safe working conditions, and even breaks. By hiring people that will accept less, you are undoing all the work that has been done. Maybe everyone will like living in this Country more when all we can expect is minimum wage jobs in sweatshops.

LAWNGODFATHER
08-14-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by maple city
We get so mad when we are underbid by a Scrub in the business. But by hiring scrub labor, you are underbidding every working person in this Country. People in this Counrtry have fought for years to make businesses pay their employees a good wage. They have fought for benefits, safe working conditions, and even breaks. By hiring people that will accept less, you are undoing all the work that has been done. Maybe everyone will like living in this Country more when all we can expect is minimum wage jobs in sweatshops. I don't get underbid by scrubs.

people fought, = unions = even more screwed.

hiring scrub labor; so now a legal alien is scrub labor?

Say what you want feel the way you do, success in the biz is bottom line oriented like any other biz, that's why you are now paying $45,000 for a diesel pick up.

Greed has killed our economy, don't blame it on out side labor.

The market rate for this line of biz hasn't changed in close to 30 years, don't blame outside labor, blame the greed in this country.

BTW I bet the ghetto is no better or worse so don't go blaming Hispanics, they stick to gather like families, not saying it's good, not saying it's bad.

BTW the Chineese started what you call sweat shops.

maple city
08-14-2003, 02:16 AM
LAWNGODFATHER,

I've read many of your other posts and I do respect your opinions on many of the topics. I cannot agree with you on this one.

Someone in our business who will work for less than we feel is appropriate is considered a scrub. Why is it any different in the labor force. Aren't people who cross picket lines and work for less considered scrubs? Someone who underbids what the American workers feel is fair is a scrub.

You are correct about Greed killing the economy. American employers have figured out a way to get a really cheap labor force and they are running with it. More money for them if they pay $5.00/hr. with no benefits vs. Mr. American who demands $20.00/hr. with a full benefits package.

I worked in the labor force until 3 years ago. I can tell you it was getting really bad. I worked a factory job. 8-10 hour days of hard work. I worked at the company for 2 years as a machine operator, and when I asked for $8.00 an hour, they laughed at me. I worked as hard, showed up on time, worked overtime whenever I was asked. But they knew there were Mexicans that would work for less than me. I told them where to shove that stupid job. Am I bitter, yes. And I can name at least 50 other people I know that have experienced the same thing.

I'm not trying to argue, just giving you a different perspective.

Moguy
08-14-2003, 02:34 AM
I agree totally with LGF. I've grown up around Chevy/Ford/Chrysler plants and have worked in one and the unions have done good for many in the area but, they have also baby sat for a larger population that wants everything handed to them while giving nothing back. Plants closing through out Michigan because of this. Its about the bottom line. Either the plant closes and moves to mexico or canada or to another state so that they can pay lower wages/benefits. They also contract seasonal help to offset expenses. Are these part time employees so called scubs? Yes, if you consider them working for a lower wage or getting a lesser benifit package to support their family. These same people go through picket lines and risk personal property or self-injury just to take a lower paying job that is used to support their family. They are all Americans. If anyone feels they have been cheated by a group of people that can do the same job for a lesser wage, the problem must lay within. This is America, a country built by small business' that supply a service to whomever. They do what they need to, to survive. I would think if anyone wants their business to grow they would do whatever they feel will be profitable. For anyone that feels that the demise of this country is soley based on a select group of people, whether it be citizens or not, have you talked to any? I'm sure they have families to support just like the rest of us. If you take a close enough look, you'll see there is a human inside of that body that is doing the exact same thing we are, trying to earn a living.

LAWNGODFATHER
08-14-2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by maple city
LAWNGODFATHER,

I worked in the labor force until 3 years ago. I can tell you it was getting really bad. I worked a factory job. 8-10 hour days of hard work. I worked at the company for 2 years as a machine operator, and when I asked for $8.00 an hour, they laughed at me. I worked as hard, showed up on time, worked overtime whenever I was asked. But they knew there were Mexicans that would work for less than me. I told them where to shove that stupid job. Am I bitter, yes. And I can name at least 50 other people I know that have experienced the same thing.

I'm not trying to argue, just giving you a different perspective. I see your prospective... My "arguing" is debating.

But ALL of my employees are making more than $8 an hour.

Don't blame all this on Mexicans either.

the H2B program is for Boznians, Cubans, French, Italians, well any person whom is not a citizen of the USA. Just so happens that most of it comes from Mexico.

I am not basing this on pay such as yourself, mine is based on able bodies to be relaible and have a steady working pace. Drug and alcahol free work place.

How many employees do you have?

What are you paying them?

What benifits do you give them?

How much chance is there for advancement at you company?

Ferngolf
08-14-2003, 09:05 AM
All of this talk about foreign labor is killing me. Didnít any of you take history in school. Who built this country?? Who laid the tracks for the railroads? Who was in the factories for the industrial revolution? Who laid the roads across America? Who built the massive damns? Who built the NY Skyline?? Take a look at The History Channel if the answers dont come to mind. These were all done by the immigration waves. Italian, Irish, Polish, etc. The difference here, in our industy, and many of you have lost sight of this as it relates to H-2B is this is seasonal work. This is 9 or 10 months a year. These laborers are not getting any closer to being a citizen by being in this program. All of my guys are paid more than $8 per hour. The state made me put an ad in the paper ($850) to advertise for these jobs before I could participate in the H-2B program. Ad stated 16 positions available, $10 per hour, overtime after 40 hrs at time and a half. I GOT ZERO RESPONSES. What should I do, tell my customers find someone else, raise my wage to $15, close up shop, what is the answer from those of you who would say that I am resopnsible for the demise of America by hiring Costa Rican workers. Also, 85% of my guys have not missed a day in the last year. The others missed, but let us know ahead of time. My time cards always read 6:45am 6:50am, never 7:00 7:05 etc. I visit many of the guys at their homes/ apartment because I think you will get a great idea about your employee looking at the way that they live. I have been shocked about how clean and neat the living space is. Their yards are not overgrown, the apartments are clean, no food or clothes anywhere, and when they are not working, they are dressed well. Like I said earlier, would I rather have the Americen guy do this, YES, but it wasnt the American guy who was sitting on top of that I beam eating his lunch as he built the American Skylines either.

LAWNGODFATHER
08-14-2003, 03:08 PM
Funny how hard it is for some Americans to grasp that. They just don't understand.

GLAN
08-14-2003, 04:10 PM
Here is what I see............


It is not the workers themselves that have created cheap labor. It is what the industry (green industry) can bear to pay for an hourly wage.

It's the fact that this industry goes by with inadequate enforcement of Licensing and Insurance regulation. That's It!!


I know that were I am the prices I am getting is not what the service is worth and I damn well know that over the years the pricing structure has stalled.


Like with anyone here I have alot out there competing with me. I and a couple others set the standards. The rest play catch up. They are only hurting themselves and affecting the industry as a whole.

New start ups feel that they don't need a license or insurance. So they can quote well below me. It's a never ending cycle.

If I am going to stay in business and remain competitive. I have to have laborers that are there on a daily basis and create no problems. I have gone through the route of American kids. It does not work out. It's not what the wage was or that they wanted more money. Truth is they were all happy with the money. Just that their problems became mine to solve.

With the immigrant worker that I hire. They are paid well. They are entitled to the benefits dictated by federal law. Worker's Comp, Disability and Unemployment and the appropriate taxes deducted from their salaries.

There is a great misconception among the average population that this industry is operated off the books. Workers work for 50 or 60 a day cash. That I as an employer is not responsible of employee insurances and so on..............

Many times have I mentioned this to clients when they call and think what they are paying is to high. My response is and has always been it's "Not High Enough!" And then we go onto tell them when have you had a realistic increase that you are aware of in the last 3 - 5 years? They can never remember. Cause I have no other choice but to knickel and dime them every year.

GLAN
08-14-2003, 04:17 PM
True that immigrant workers will work for less wage. Their life style is that of less.

Don't blame them..........

As far as this industry is concerned. I am not talking about factories or assembly lines.

In this industry if you feel your not being paid a fair wage as an employee. It is not necessarily that your employer is being cheap, rather it is based on what he can afford.

If you are an employer and can't pay your workers a fair wage or that you feel you can't get paid enough for the jobs that you do. You only have yourself to blame and the industry. The finger pointing should be at the local agencies that dictate you need to be licensed and carry insurance but do not enforce it.


Reporting illegal companies, especialy those applying pesticides without a license is your obligation. And you had better damn well do it........

Tim Canavan
08-14-2003, 07:21 PM
Sure is crazy reading some of these responses. Great subject matter though. :D

I don't really care where you are from as long as you are a good person. My three rules are don't be late, don't steal from me and don't lie to me. If you have a great work ethic and can follow my rules. Great, you're hired.

I know here in the Houston area, your just not going to find someone to do this kind of work, especially when the heat index is over 110 degrees. That's just the way it is. No sense in getting all worked up about it.:cool:

The people that bother me (hispanic, white, or whatever) are the one's who have a buisness and don't pay their taxes. Why should I bust my tail building my buisness to be where I am today and pay my taxes and Joe blow lawn care works for beer money and doesn't pay his taxes. That's the real problem, hispanic or not. It's the guys who run the business that are the one's we should have a problem with. I'm sure there are people on this site right now like that. Well, you are the problem, not the people that the legitimate lawn care companies hire. All I ask is that you pay your taxes like everyone else. Hmmm, if everyone were legit, that might even bring the prices of doing a lawn up.

Tim Canavan
08-15-2003, 09:54 AM
I guess I'm the only one who feels this way.

GLAN
08-15-2003, 08:42 PM
That's what I'm saying Tim.

Your not the only one that feels like that

dvmcmrhp52
08-15-2003, 09:11 PM
Bottom line.
Supply and demand.
It does not take much in the way of brain power or equipment to start cutting lawns.Wether you pay taxes or not or have a license or not or are certified to apply roundup or not just don't change the facts.Supply and demand.Particularly in the current economy,
lots of people have started cutting lawns to keep their mortgage paid etc.
As for the pricing structure staying flat,this is a problem in MANY industries.Machining,tooling,moldmaking Just to name a few that I am personally VERY familiar with.
It's life in the fast lane in the good old U.S.A. we are reducing our standard of living to meet that of the rest of the world rather than the world moving up to ours.
And LGF as far as greed being the problem in this country,every time someone hires a person that is not a citizen it just justifies that greed.You all buy clothing that is cheap because it is made over seas,WHY because you want to keep that cash in your own pocket rather than giving it to someone in this country so their company can afford to keep them working.And so the cycle continues.......This is getting too long gotta go,just my ramblings for now.It's a good healthy debate though.;)

LAWNGODFATHER
08-15-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
And LGF as far as greed being the problem in this country,every time someone hires a person that is not a citizen it just justifies that greed.That's just not true.

First off you have to qualify for the H2B program, it's a labor shortage supplement.

Sorry but if you aint got able bodies to do the work, you aint working. Simple as that.

Yall that don't like it, go back to the country's your ancestors came from.

dvmcmrhp52
08-15-2003, 09:54 PM
Not all non citizens come through the h2b program,so I'm not sure that applies to anything other than a small minority of the problem.Not arguing LGF just discussing..:)

LAWNGODFATHER
08-15-2003, 10:01 PM
Sorry I misread it some.... I was not arguing, it just helped me make a point clear and blunt.

You mean Illegal Alien.

dvmcmrhp52
08-15-2003, 10:45 PM
Although illegals are a real problem they don't neccessarily have to be illegal.My point is that any one who is not a permanent citizen of this country and has no stake in what happens here,does not pay taxes here etc. should not be reaping the benefits of this country. Call it patriotism,Nationalism,Whatever you like ,it just goes against my grain for us all to not support each other as citizens of the greatest country on God's green earth.Are there LAZY people here,You bet,but it sure don't take long to weed them out either,does it?

Rhett
08-15-2003, 11:37 PM
Agree with Maple> We are inundated with foreign workers. Not only from Mexico but every where. The original workers that helped build our infrastructure of our country did not come here with the intentions of sending their pay checks home and vacating but to move to our country and becoming part of our society. Our wages have become stagnant because of the influx of cheap workers. Heck now the Latin workers are complaining because they are being replaced by workers from the former republics of Russia. LawnGodfather: I guess since I am solo I will get ready for my "Job I bought" and hit the hay. Think maybe that was a bit arrogant

LAWNGODFATHER
08-16-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
Are there LAZY people here, You bet, but it sure don't take long to weed them out either, does it? Yeah it takes a long time, you might as well throw out 99.9% of all the people who call from the newspaper add. They may not all be lazy, but they have other habit's or problems that are not worth my time.




I guess since I am solo I will get ready for my "Job I bought" and hit the hay. Think maybe that was a bit arrogant Damn skippy it is........

Just like you own the country and your 1 vote means anything. Write a letter to your congressmen or women.

You don't like it go back to your country of origin. I am sure one of them will be histatic to take your place.

GLAN
08-16-2003, 12:23 AM
Saying that one hires an Alien is done so out of greed.

That is ridiculous

To go onto to say that they don't pay taxes and so on. Well who is to blame? not the worker. If the employers operated a proper business then this would not be an issue.

I hire "Resident Aliens" and those that have proper work authorization papers. They all have taxes deducted and are covered by Workmans Compensation, Disability, and Unemployment. And they collect that in the winter.

Companies that hire off the book and illegal labor does so for the simple fact that they can. There is not enough enforcement of the laws that dictate one to have a business license and insurance. These scrub companies also do not collect sales tax. Even if they do have a license and the basic liability insurance means nothing.

This also means that the majority of these "balck market" companies do not command the rates that we do. They do not hold themeselves to the highest standards either.

All that they are doing is keeping an industry from rising to the heights that it should be.

If you sit on your butt piss moaning and crying about this. Then do something about it!!!

REPORT THEM!!!!!!!!!

They apply pesticides illegaly REPORT THEM
Customer tells you that their service provider does not collect sales tax and is much lower in price than you. REPORT THEM
You know for a fact that they hire illegal workers. REPORT THEM.

We are not powerless in this situation. I know I am not.

You or they want to own a business then you had better operate a legal business. You or they want to think they are a profesional company then do what is necessary to be one.

If not?

You have me and thousands more like me out there.

GLAN
08-16-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by GLAN
Saying that one hires an Alien is done so out of greed.

That is ridiculous

To go onto to say that they don't pay taxes and so on. Well who is to blame? not the worker. If the employers operated a proper business then this would not be an issue.

I hire "Resident Aliens" and those that have proper work authorization papers. They all have taxes deducted and are covered by Workmans Compensation, Disability, and Unemployment. And they collect that in the winter.

Companies that hire off the book and illegal labor does so for the simple fact that they can. There is not enough enforcement of the laws that dictate one to have a business license and insurance. These scrub companies also do not collect sales tax. Even if they do have a license and the basic liability insurance means nothing.

This also means that the majority of these "black market" companies do not command the rates that we do. They do not hold themeselves to the highest standards either.

All that they are doing is keeping an industry from rising to the heights that it should be.

If you sit on your butt piss moaning and crying about this. Then do something about it!!!

REPORT THEM!!!!!!!!!

They apply pesticides illegaly REPORT THEM
Customer tells you that their service provider does not collect sales tax and is much lower in price than you. REPORT THEM
You know for a fact that they hire illegal workers. REPORT THEM.

We are not powerless in this situation. I know I am not.

You or they want to own a business then you had better operate a legal business. You or they want to think they are a profesional company then do what is necessary to be one.

If not?

You have me and thousands more like me out there.

Dr. Mow
08-16-2003, 12:30 AM
I use latinos and pay them more than the americans, why? because they show up on time , do not complain, work there butts off. the americans , if the show up , they are always complaining and want to call it a day by 2-00. I pay the person what the person is worth regardless of race, they do have to be legal though.

I give them quartly bonus for learning english and teaching me spanish. - works great.

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2003, 12:48 AM
Glan,
You just made MY point.
As well,you contradicted yourself by saying it is not done out of greed,yet in the same thought you say that it is the companies that hire them off the books because they can....Why?
GREED!!!!!!!
Obviously this is a touchy subject for some,so I will stay out of it from here.;)

GLAN
08-16-2003, 12:52 AM
But they are not getting the same rates as I do "dvm"


They charge less than me.


So, I don't think "greed" is completely correct.


Not for nothing, for any company or company owner to survive there has to be some smarts. If "greed" is that, then so be it. If not then why own a business?

A business is there to make money. How else does any business survive. And the premise of this thread of discussion is about the worker and wages.

Is it good business to hire someone at $20 an hour that does not put in a full days work? Show up on time? shows everyday for work? and so on.........

Or would it be good business to hire the worker that can do the job for $12 or $15 and do what is expected?

If those that were to get the $20 an hour performed the same as the others. Then this would not be an interesting discussion.

It's the American worker to blame. Not the employer.

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2003, 12:55 AM
;)

AztlanLC
08-16-2003, 04:00 PM
Same here, I'm a mexican and you'll be surpise of how many american companies underbid me, because they don't have insurance, I don't mind competition, but we all should play in the same level, if you had the same expenses as I do, your price structure would be the same, how many times have you give a price and find out someone is willing to do it for less, or people asking you what's this sales tax thing? my prior lco didn't charge sales tax, I always reply by saying this that somebody posted in this site a while ago "I don't charge sales tax I just collect'em".

Being Mexican, Hispanic or any other race doesn't mean being cheap labor, only when you grow your business and have the need for good employees, you'll understand why so many of us look for the h2b program, you may be able to find couple people willing to work in this field, it doesn't matter if you pay'em 10 or 20 dls an hour there's just not enough people willing to work in this field.

Heck I even went to the deparment of labor and had phone number from people without a job you'll be surprise at how they're rather being unemployed then working, they ask you so many questions when you call'em about the position and they came with the lamest excuse for not being able to work for you (very allergic to poison ivy, bees, sun, etc.) they even lie to the unemployment department saying you never call'em

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2003, 04:29 PM
AztlanLC,
Just to clarify,We do have a REAL need for good quality employees.
I just want to hire American citizens.
No offense implied or intended.

Tim Canavan
08-16-2003, 04:55 PM
If we could get more guys, excuse me, B]legitimate[/B] guys to talk about this, things could only get better for us. Maybe as GLAN said, we should report the illegal guys. Not illegal aliens but illegal companies. You know the guys that comes in and under bids you because he doesn't pay taxes or have insurance. I don't want to have to rat these guys out but what's right is right. Right?


As far as employing anyone no matter where they are from, the majority of them are latinos. That's all there is to it. Case should be closed.

The main focus should be on what's written above. :cool:

I am Me
09-22-2003, 04:59 PM
This is just my opinion. I am solo, no crew, no illegal alien employees. However, here is what I know and what I think.

First of all, there are valid points in almost all of the above posts.

Maple city, I know what you are speaking of when you talk about Hispanics living 20 to a house, dead cars in the front yard, etc. I've seen it, and it does drive down property values. I have also seen many, many caucasions living in busted up mobile homes with more appliances in their front yards than Sears. That drives property values down also. I've also seen it with Blacks, Asians, and American Indians. Color or race has nothing to do with it. It is a cultural class that does not limit itself to skin color or race.

HB2 Labor is here to stay. I used H-1 and J-1'a in the medical recruiting game. Why? Some was due to labor shortage, some was due to no US citizen wanting the job. There are stringent guidelines that you have to follow, and there is no margin for error. Prove your case and you can import labor. The lower cost of labor, if there is one, is a side benefit. The real benefit is that you have a labor force in order to provide a service that is demanded by the public. Example: J-1 Visa, now defunct. In order for an immigrant to qualify for J-1, they must be able to commit to an assignment for a minimum of 5 years. this had to be in a location deamed "undesirable" by the US workforce. After the completion of their service, they were allowed to pursue citizenship , and a greencard, and move to a more desirable location. Most of these locations were small towns in the Mid-west, NM, AZ, and so on. Not in Detroit, Dallas, Greensboro, or any metro area. The result. The patients were treated. The cost to import? Low. Very low. America wanted $200k, the best house, and a 38 hour work week to move there. These people wanted $80k and a chance at freedom. Different motivations.

Bottom line is this.

Our youth, as a whole, does not have the work ethic of their parents or Grandparents. Whose fault is that? Ours. College education is easy to get, and is a requirement of todays work force. It is no longer seen as "just for the wealthy" and does not carry the same prestige as it did even 20 years ago. It is no longer an accomplishement, it is an expectation. In our age of "buy it today, pay tomorrow" we have conditioned our youth and ourselves that it is not how hard you work, its how good is your credit.

It also goes back to our fabric as a society. How we raise our kids, how we discipline them. If everytime they stick their hand out and want help-not becasue they need it , but because it will be easier for them- and we ablige; we are teaching them not how to work,solve problems, and make something of their own, but how to get out easy with no effort.

Immigrant labor is not all bad if it is legal. I say the best man gets the job. If that means he is latino, asian, Arabic, or green. So be it. The vast majority of americans today want it as fast as possible with the least amount of effort. They don't want to look ahead 2 years to see where it wil lget them, they want a guarantee that it will happen tomorrow whether they work or not.

The blessed few that are on this site have realized that everything has a price and its not always money. We have returned to our roots - Work hard, pay as you go, make your own way.

Isn't it funny...that is the same ethic that our immigrant labor has - legal or illegal.

Nuff said.

cuttingchris
09-22-2003, 06:03 PM
after half way down the first page i was so outraged that i quit reading im sick of people sayin how lazy americans are today and you all say that american teenagers are lazy well im 18 i own my own company and probly make as much money as you do i have some of the best employees around and do by far the best work and the money i would save by hiring mexicans is saved by the speed and quality that these guys work at and there all under 20 years old. if were so lazy and mexicans arent why is our country so much better off then theres why dont they use there non-lazyness. and lastly everyone can say that our unemployment rate is going up because of president bush but it has no other direction to go when were bringing in 1,000's of mexicans a year to take over americans jobs. i dont care how desperate i get i will NEVER hire a mexican employee to work for me i will always support american and give americans my money.

cuttingchris
09-22-2003, 06:06 PM
oh and i forgot to mention the i live in one of the richest citys in the country and have one of the best school systems in the country and anyone who comes out of our schools can go to college but all the kids still need jobs and they work had i just read a post about how easy it is to get into college. and i do not see how college bound people are differnt then non-college bound people

I am Me
09-22-2003, 07:04 PM
Cuttingcris,

Congratulations on your success in owning your own company. However, you are a minority in your age group. Most kids do not have the desire or the work ethic that you have demonstrated. Once again, great job.

College verses No College. Here are the facts. I am a recruiterin my full time job. Thats what I do, I broker people. My clients are Fortune 100 - Mom and Pops.
Fact: 99% of all Corporations that are publicly traded require a degree for professional, white collar jobs. If you don;t have one, you don;t get in. There are many people currently employed with these corps that do not have a degree, but chances are they have been there for a long time.

Fact: For your age group and those to follow in the next 1 years. If you do not have a degree, you will be FORCED to accept lower paying positions, blue collar positions, or own your own company. The attitude already is that a degree is so easy to get financially, there is no excuse for anyone not to have one. It shows commitment and the ability to follow through.

Fact: Never say never. Its a fat word to have to eat. You are young- you will hire a mexican. Otherwise somebody may come after you for discrimination. They are the fastest growing minority in the US. Get used to it. Its not all bad.

Oh, and nobody said anything about GW.

rock
09-23-2003, 12:49 AM
I have been a member here for a while,and so far i've only posted a few times,but this thread has really touched a nerve with me. I have NEVER owned a full time lco,i had a part time lco for about 3 years though. I sold it because i make way to much money at my full time job,and have a lot better future there than i do in the lawn business. First off i want to start off by saying not all young people are lazy. I'm am 27,and i have gotten where i am today by working very hard. I worked for my dad every summer full time,and at home in the garage after school,and on weekends untill i was 17. My senior year of school i worked full time at a machine shop,and went to school full time. After i graduated i worked two full time jobs for the next 2 years. After that i worked just 1 full time job,and went to college at night for 2 more years. Now after only being out of school for 9 years i'm making more than most people twice my age,and have more in retirement already than probably 90% of the people twice my age. So i take it personally when people say that todays generation is lazy. By the way my dad's business is in the lumber industry,so if you guys think mowing is hard work come on down to the sawmill at 5:30 a.m. and work till 4:30 in that 100 degree heat packing lumber,tailing the edger,and cutting timber. Now enough about being lazy. Next is the issue about the mexican labor. My dad has only had one since starting his business in 1972,and that was about 3 years ago,and he wasn't worth two squirts of duck #*!%. My best friend owns a pallett business,and he has 6 mexicans,and 4 caucasions. At first he said the mexicans where the best thing since sliced bread(that was 3 years ago)but after bailing them out of jail,letting them borrow money all the time,pulling one of them out of a ditch because he wrecked while drunk,and having to call the police on one of them for playing his stereo till 2 a.m. in the morning(not once,but twice)after telling him nicely to please turn it off at 11 p.m. he is about ready to fire all of them. He pays all of them between 10 and 11 bucks an hour,which is good for our area,and especially good for mexican labor. What bothers me is all of the so called industry experts say there is a labor shortage, the metal manufacturing sector also says there is a labor shortage(and these are high paying jobs),and most of the other industries claim labor shortages,but yet there is extremely high unemployment rates throughout the U.S.,my county here had an unemployment rate of 14.6% for the month of August. All of the big companies keep sending everything overseas. Eventually we are going to be going to Mexico looking for jobs. Most of the problem is the penny pinchers running the companies today,and the big CEO's running the country(let's face it the elected officials aren't running it) Bruce32 you made some very good points throughout this on going debate,and you make alot of sence. My job has nothing to do with any of the industries i have mentioned,but i am still concerned about where this country is headed. There are alot of really bright people out there,but the opportunities are getting less and less everyday. I would love to own a lawn business someday,but with things the way they are where i live right now i wouldn't even be able to go broke. Lawngodfather you said that if we don't like it here go back where we came from,we'll i'm Cherokee indian on my dad's side,so i believe i was here before you,so i will see you later. I don't believe that mexican labor is the problem,i believe the whole system is the blame. There are people that believe this whole country can be run from a computer,and that is the only thing they teach you in school anymore,anything that gets your hands dirty is looked on as being for the less intelligent people. I think if people quit worrying so much about money and started trying to be happy alot of the problems would fix themselves. Alot of the owners,trying to save a buck or two here and there,are the ones to blame. You as the owner have to try to show the younger generation that this can be a rewarding career,but paying them 7 dollars an hour,and making them ride a mower all day isn't going to cut it,your not going to get the guy with the good work ethic,and a good head on his shoulders,the guy down the street that shows him where he can be in 10 or 15 years if he works hard will. I'm not cutting ANY of you all down,i respect EVERY single one of you. I respect anyone that is in business for themselves(as long as it is a legal business). I hope to someday join the ranks of the self employed,and start my own machine shop doing custom machining,and building street rods,but untill then i will keep doing what i'm doing,and getting what i'm getting. C-ya'll later.

rock
09-23-2003, 12:56 AM
Sorry had a mistake. I AM 27,not i'm am 27. If there are anymore i'm sorry,getting to late.