Scared the life out of me!!!

[Envy Lawn Service]

I was cutting a new property for the 1st time today. It was pretty tall but not terrible. As I was cutting around the border I got the suprise of my life!!! I came very close to turning the mower over and hurting myself bad.

At the lower side of the house, whoever did the grading created a bank between one lot and the other. I'm talking steep enough to really need a retaining wall, literally atleast 75-80 degrees.

As I was mowing along the top at the edge the mower just kinda suddenly slowed down. I just let off the levers and sat there a second confused. The area was only maybe a 10-15 degree slope and I was confused as to why I had lost traction there. I hadn't bottomed out or anything.

So I turned off the PTO and kinda lokked around me. Then I just lightly pushed the controls, very little movement. So I leaned over and looked at the right tire. It was slipping so I let off the right and put a little more on the left to turn up away from the edge. Right then the rear kicked sideways right off the hill.

IT all happened very suddenly but I was somehow able to bail off. The mower slid on off the hill and to my amazement didn't turn over. Man I really don't know how it didn't roll...

Anyways, after calming my nerves and getting the mower on off the bank onto level ground (yes somehow it caught and stuck on it) I went stomping back up to inspect the area to try to make some sense of what happened.

With the high grass, I had mis-judged and was closer to the edge than I thought for starters. Also that high grass was hiding a washed out area. The front caster wheel was hanging over it causing a weight transfer to the left front, plus I think some of the deck weight was resting on the gage wheels.

All that cause that little loss of traction. As the mower fish tailed, the left rear tire fell into another washed out rut causing it to tip over the bank.

I guess it was just one of those multi condition situations that was hidden in the tall grass. A perfect little spot for disaster to strike!

I still don't know how I managed to get off with one stick still over my lap, nor have I figured out how it didn't roll on over or how it managed to stop and stick on the side of that place! I mean it was tumbling over when I bailed off.



Needless to say, I am counting my many blessings tonight as I sit here with no injuries and no damage to the Z. Yall be carefull out there. I just found out the hard way how you can get suprised like that when you least expect it.

[Husky]

You better becareful out there mowing those jungles like that!!! Believe me I'm daring on the thing, but what happened to you could be fatal, I would have had to ask how that got there.

I'm also SURE that is aginst some County code...

[FrankenScagMachines]

That's why I like a walk behind. Much much safer and more stable on slopes and rough ground.

[walker-talker]

Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
That's why I like a walk behind. Much much safer and more stable on slopes and rough ground.

And can't afford one.....lol:D

[FrankenScagMachines]

Can't afford what? To lose a machine because it was the wrong tool for the job and then it rolls over and about kills me? :dizzy:

[CSRA Landscaping]

Here's one for ya.

We started a new account on Tuesday & my brother took the tiger cub behind the units to cut there. The strip that goes behind them is just barely wide enough for it (48" deck) and there are AC units back there. At the edge there is a 45º slope with a 35-40 foot drop to the bypass, with a 6' privacy fence about 6-8 feet down it. He thought he had enough room to go around one AC unit and he didn't. The left tires slipped off the edge and the deck bottomed on the ridge. He came and got me and we took the other rider out back to try and pull it out.

Everything we did made it go farther & farther down, getting closer to the fence (mower weighs 1,000 lbs dry). It was raining, too, by this time. In the process of trying to get it out with the Cougar, he fell off once and rolled down towards the fence. Next time, the mower slid and almost turned over on top of him. That's when I said, forget it, we're going to get a come-along and get it out.

So we went and bought a come-along, got back, took out a section of the fence, gently winched it down the hill, and when we got it down there, pulled it out of the deep, wet, soft ditch with the truck & chain (on a busy road after stopping traffic) and got it back on the trailer, all with no damage to any equipment or, most importantly, people. Praise the Lord for no injuries.

(The reason we had to go down the hill instead of up is because there was nothing to fasten to at the top of the hill.)

Guys, be careful out there, you're worth more than the equipment any day.

[T.E.]

frankenscagmachine Isn't it past your bed time? Does your mother know your up? :D

[Pecker]

Thank God for Guardian Angels!

My neighbor bush - hogs on the weekends and he said he has to be very careful in the high grass because it will grow the same height out of a ditch as the grass on the high ground sometimes. So you can be going along and not see a drop - off. Be aware of this on the overgrown props. I have also experienced this myself while riding my 4wheeler (luckily while going slow). Be careful and don't overwork your Guardian Angels!

[Rustic Goat]

Haven't you guys ever heard of walking an unfamiliar property before blindly assume it's OK to mow? Your guardian angel may be busy elsewhere one day when you try to call them.

[CSRA Landscaping]

I did walk it. That's why we tried it with the little mower.

[rvsuper]

Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Can't afford what? To lose a machine because it was the wrong tool for the job and then it rolls over and about kills me? :dizzy:

I think Matt means that you can't afford a Z, which might be true....

[awm]

lest one ou younguns that are unbreakable try it ,an kill uself. dont do this. but i did :o , trying to flip my lazer
is about as hard as trying to flip a flat sheet o plywood 3/4 ,on a concrete surface.
in short it can be done ,but it just about takes a higher power [in plywoods case ,a good stout man.]to do it. jmo.
also if u foolish enough ,anythings possible so dont get u self killed trying to prove me wrong. in fact if u thinking ofit .DONT.

[ElephantNest]

Glad you're ok.
http://www.exmark.com/product_pics/rollcage.jpg

[cantoo]

Last week my son rolled our battery powered Ransomes greens mower on perfectly level ground. He was playing around at full speed and started to fishtail, he overcorrected and rolled it. Only bent the steering wheel arm a bit. The grass is just starting to die where the leaking acid burned it.

[pinnacle]

ROPS will give you piece of mind. I know I fell alot safer mowing slopes and near slopes
Look after your self. you only get one body!
Glad your OK

[azturfpro]

I have a rule at work and it goes like this . Before you put one of my mowers on a turf area you had better get out and walk the entire area .

[darryl gesner]

Envy - Glad you and the machine got out of that one unharmed, but this is the second time this month that you've reported getting stuck followed by your mower going down a hill without you on it. I'd be wondering if I had the right machine for the job if that happened to me. How many times did this sort of stuff happen with your old mower?

[ULTIMATE LAWN]

Didn't I tell you to put Wider Tires on that Thing?

[darryl gesner]

Yeah, they are kinda narrow, and it seems to sit a little higher than my Lazer HP.

http://www.yazookees.com/products/ztminimax.html

[rvsuper]

Originally posted by ULTIMATE ???? :confused: :confused:
Didn't I tell you to put Wider Tires on that Thing?

That is about the only comment I remember you saying in the history you've been here.

"You need wider tires."

[Envy Lawn Service]

Well, I will try to reply to everyone.....

#1 - Thank you to everyone who was conserned. I myself was very conserned with this being a situation that could easily take the life of any of us! The really scary part is how it was so unexpected. This could have happened to any of you. That's why I posted about it, to put caution in the wind.

#2 - Just when you think you are completely safe, you may find out you are not.

#3 - Where I was when it began was nearly flat.

#4 - FSM, I'll keep my Z, If I had been using a walkbehind at the time, with the way things happened it would have probably corraled me between the grips, pushed me off the bank and backed right over me. The WB is not the perfect answer to everything, nomatter how much you want it to be. I'll give you time. You'll soon learn of this just like you learned your Scag wasn't the best around.

#5 - This property was not a jungle. Probably 3 or so weeks of growth. I did walk this property very carefully. In fact I was within about 2 ft. of the wash hole that started it all. Just as ------ mentioned, it was hidden well.... and chances of finding something that small on a large sq. footage property is like finding a needle in a hay stack.

#6 - awm, I have to totally agree w/ you! It's amazing how stable these things are when it comes to rol over danger. Now I understand why they don't come factory equipped w/ ROPS. About the only way to roll one is to be going along a sidehill at speed and bounce it over on a stump or something. Or be doing like some of you do on steep stuff, mow up then back down, then while backing down, make a major mistake and pounce it over on you. However that doesn't mean it's impossible. The real danger lies in how easy you can get suprised like I did. I'm still puzzled as to how mine didn't roll...

#7 - darryl & UL.....1st let me address the tire issue. The rears are 20 x 10 - 10 and the fronts are 11 x 4 - 5. Given the size and weight of my Z, I think these are ample size. UL, I asked why when you suggested that I get wider tires, I even PM'ed you asking and you never answered. Wider tires don't make much sense to me. All that means is more ground floatation and "ultimately" LESS traction on firm ground.

#8 - darryl, yes this is the second time I have been stuck. The 1st time I was actually on a slope though, at the end of a pass and the machine wouldn't turn up nor down and wouldn't back up either. I was in a place your HP would dream of I promise you.

In all honesty I will admit I wanted an HP bad when I was shopping, but the mini max killed it on slope performance. The picture on the web-site would look strange to you if you saw one in person, also it's a 42" not a 48". Anyways I think the pic has been streched vertically some too. The Hustler mini looks a lot like it. Mine is very low, even in seat height (28" or 29" empty). Other than the seat & tanks everything's weight is mounted a 13" or less off the ground. The HP's seat height may be the same or maybe even a bit lower, but the center of gravity is not and the steeper the slope, the more you can tell it.

To end this post I'd like to stress again, be careful out there, respect your machine and stay alert. Also remember when you are the least bit unsure, turn that PTO off like I did. I could have easily lost a foot while jumping clear of the machine if conditions had been right.

And....remeber when you are zipping around singing zipity-do-da or whatever you do when you are not really concentrating on your surroundings, thinking everything is under control, that's when things can slip up and bite you in the rear!!!
;)
Freak things happen all the time. Try not to let them happen to you!

[darryl gesner]

Envy - I'm afraid that you just don't get it. Not trying to be confrontational here, but you seem to be posting your experience to warn others, when I think you are the one who needs to heed the warning.

Regardless of the circumstance details, it is alarming to me that your machine has gone off down a slope without you in the operator seat on two occasions in the last couple of weeks. To me, that says that there is something seriously wrong.

You say that the area you were mowing was only a 10 to 15 degree slope. Hello, the safe operating range for Zturn riders is generally considered to be only a 15 to 20 degree slope.

IMO you need to re-evalute the suitability of your machine for the properties you service, modify it to suit the propeties better, get a WB for use on the dicey slopes, or drop some accounts. You've had two slope-related mishaps with your machine aleady...if you don't do something to correct the problem, it's likely to happen again, and you and/or your machine may not be as fortunate next time.

Why not buy a slope degree indicator to mount on the machine so you don't have to guess what the slope is? I have one on my JD tractor and it works well. What about the ROPS and seat belt that someone else suggested.

I'm no expert, but wider tires will increase the stability on slopes due to the wider footprint.

An interesting side note - The manual for your machine says to mow up and down slopes and always turn down a slope...the opposite of what most say.

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I think you need to smell up and wake the coffee.
:)

[darryl gesner]

Here's a link for machine-mounted slope degree indicators and a photo of the one I have (there are several diffent models including those with audible and visual alarms.)

http://www.tiltmeter.com/

[GLAN]

Darryl

That meter is nice, thanks for the link

[darryl gesner]

Glan - Welcome.

I wish some of you guys would help me out here. I think that there is a mismatch between Envy, his machine and the terrain he's mowing.

I mean there are 3 basis variables...the terrain, the operator and the machine. It just doesn't seem normal to me for someone to get their machine stuck on slopes twice in a short period of time, recognize they are stuck, and still end of sending the machine down a slope unmanned. There needs to be a change to one of the variables, and to ignore that is asking for disaster IMO.

Am I wrong? If so, let me know and I'll just shut up...maybe.:D

[Envy Lawn Service]

Darryl,

I'm not trying to be confrontational here either! :cool:

#3 - Where I was when it began was nearly flat.

That's the part you seem to be missing here. This time it was not a slope issue at all, but became one very quickly since I happened to be near a drop off. The same thing could have happened on perfectly flat ground. This was something that could happen to any of us and that fact was pretty alarming to me.

As for the tire issue, UL got me thinking about that before. I did a lot of thinking on the issue because I do have some inches to play with if I wanted the machine to have a wider rear track width. It would take away my trim ability some, but it could be done.

Now in my case, this would mean that I would have to get a set of wheels with a different offset. The ones on it already hug pretty close w/ the 20 x 10 - 10's. But that's no big deal to me either if I knew where I could get some and choose the spacing offset. Ever since I got it I've been wanting to get a spare set of tires and wheels to carry for it, maybe even something w/ more aggressive tread too.

As for the slope indicator, I have one of those already. It sticks on with a magnet. I bought one early on to keep track of what is a safe operating range. The machine IS very stable and will mow some pretty steep stuff with ease.

However, after a while of using the slope indicator it helped me to learn a more important point. For the most part, the degree of slope is less important than the condition of the slope. Bumps, uneven places, rolling places, and dual pitch slopes are the more important factors to consider when deciding if something is in fact safe or not. These things cause a weight transfer and make any type of slope difficult and sometimes unsafe to be on.

NOW... a side question about your slope indicator, does the needle bounce around a lot while traveling? Mine sure does and I don't like that much. I will check out that link.

About the manual, it doesn't surprise me that it says to mow up and down slopes. Unlike a lot of Z's it will safely descend straight down anything I have the balls to go up as long as the slope is a fairly flat plane. IF it's a steep ride straight down and tilted say 20 degrees to the right or left too, then forget it! It will go up fine, but coming back down the high drive tire will scuff the turf. Also it does not do diagonal downhill passes well either on the steeper stuff. IT will go up, but coming back down it wants to lead to the low side.

But the "turn downhill part" I don't know about. You can get by with it very safely in a lot of conditions. But I wouldn't dare say "ALWAYS" turn downhill.

As for the entire manual, since you have looked, I can discuss this with you. Have you ever seen any more of a lousy excuse for a manual? Geez! I was shocked when I looked in it. I expected a nice, high detail manual with lots of pictures/examples/figures. It's nothing like that. It's only some pages printed out and stapled together. There is plenty of room for improvement there!

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by darryl gesner
Glan - Welcome.

I wish some of you guys would help me out here. I think that there is a mismatch between Envy, his machine and the terrain he's mowing.

I mean there are 3 basis variables...the terrain, the operator and the machine. It just doesn't seem normal to me for someone to get their machine stuck on slopes twice in a short period of time, recognize they are stuck, and still end of sending the machine down a slope unmanned. There needs to be a change to one of the variables, and to ignore that is asking for disaster IMO.

Am I wrong? If so, let me know and I'll just shut up...maybe.:D

Like I said, darryl, yes this is the second time I have been stuck. The 1st time I was actually on a slope though, at the end of a pass and the machine wouldn't turn up nor down and wouldn't back up either. I was mowing straight across the face of the slope without any problems. I've done it before and still do now.

That particlar time I just happened to go forward a few inches too far and got stuck that way. All it was is that there is a little hump at the end there. The left front caster was part way on it. That was enough to make it too hard to turn uphill, and since mine has a ridgid frame like most, it didn't take much on that steep of a slope to get enough weight cocked off the left rear to prevent it from getting enough traction to turn downhill or back up.

I had to get off, "unman" the machine, and push the front end around so that it would go downhill. Where it was at, that was the only option I had. NO big deal.

[rodfather]

Envy

Maybe you should seriously consider buying (if you don't have one now) a WB for some of your mowing sites? FWIW, Z's have their place, but no where like a WB can go for sure. I'll put one of my 52 or 61" WB's where no Z can get close to.

just my .02 dude.

[GLAN]

Originally posted by darryl gesner
Glan - Welcome.

I wish some of you guys would help me out here. I think that there is a mismatch between Envy, his machine and the terrain he's mowing.

Am I wrong? If so, let me know and I'll just shut up...maybe.:D


I'm with you on this......................sorry for letting you hang out there.

[darryl gesner]

Envy - Alright, just be safe whatever it takes.

You said "For the most part, the degree of slope is less important than the condition of the slope. Bumps, uneven places, rolling places, and dual pitch slopes are the more important factors to consider when deciding if something is in fact safe or not. "

I couldn't agree with you more! That's why you need to built a margin of safety in and GO SLOW.

Yes, the indicator will bounce some. You need to stop or slow to get a really good reading. That's because there has to be some sort of compromise in the visosity of the fluid to enable the ball to move with the slope and give a stable reading. R & B is well aware of this, and can, I believe, provide custom gauges with custom fluids (I'm going from memory regarding their postings on another board a few years ago). The founder of R & B is a great guy who stands behind his prouducts 100%. Give him a call...really easy to talk to.

Oh, and thanks Glan.

[ULTIMATE LAWN]

A large Hydro WB would Reduce Your Trimming & stick Better on the Hills.

[rodfather]

Originally posted by rodfather
Envy

Maybe you should seriously consider buying (if you don't have one now) a WB for some of your mowing sites? FWIW, Z's have their place, but no where like a WB can go for sure. I'll put one of my 52 or 61" WB's where no Z can get close to.

just my .02 dude.


I thought I said that already.

[ULTIMATE LAWN]

I advised him of this when he was Shopping But he Paid no Heed.

http://lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=37159&highlight=wb

[Envy Lawn Service]

Now that's THICK HEADED!!!!!!!!

Geezzz!!! As I've already said here......

#1 - This has absolutely zero to do with the slope performance of a ZTR.

#2 - This issue is not about WB v/s ZTR performance.

Yada yada yada ect....

Do I have to draw a diagram here? Maybe I am not well versed in my explanations or something?

Well here's a little diagram bank-->/lllllllllllLawnllllllllll

I was mowing on the nearly FLAT lawn, mowing next to the drop off bank. I was not ON the bank. This bank is a trimmer only job and not any other kind. So therefore I was not trying to mow the bank, just right there where the lawn ends.

One of the casters was in a pot hole if you will and I could not tell. This acted as a wedge when I was trying to turn. That caused the mower to "fishtail" off the edge of the bank.

So this was not a hill issue nor was it a WB v/s ZTR issue. This could have happened to anyone with any type of mower other than say a 21".

[darryl gesner]

Originally posted by Envy Lawn Service

At the lower side of the house, whoever did the grading created a bank between one lot and the other. I'm talking steep enough to really need a retaining wall, literally atleast 75-80 degrees.

As I was mowing along the top at the edge the mower just kinda suddenly slowed down. I just let off the levers and sat there a second confused. The area was only maybe a 10-15 degree slope and I was confused as to why I had lost traction there. I hadn't bottomed out or anything.



Maybe I am thick headed, but your original post said that you were cutting on a 10-15 degree slope (5 degress less than the typical manufacturer-given safe limit for slopes with a Z=turn rider) next to a 75-80 degree slope. How then does this not have anything to do with slopes?! :confused:

Never mind, being so thick headed, I'm sure I wouldn't understand anyway.

[ULTIMATE LAWN]

After all that shopping you End up with a unit that has a High Center of Gravity & a Narrow Footprint.

Tusk Tusk.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Originally posted by ULTIMATE LAWN
After all that shopping you End up with a unit that has a High Center of Gravity & a Narrow Footprint.

Tusk Tusk.

TIP......It does help to have some idea what you are talking about before you start to type. Since you know so much, why don't you grab your digital camera and a ruler. Then go out and take some pictures of various measurements of the Lazers you say you have, relating to center of gravity ect...

I'll be glad to compair with you and give you an education on this issue.

By the way, this visual aid will give you one piece of working knowledge about my machine, since it's obvious you have none...

Open mouth, insert foot.

[bob]

I almost lost my Grasshopper over this hill. My son was using it and it ran out of gas(my fault for not checking). It was facing toward the hill when it ran out. The parking brake ha never worked very well. It started creeping toward the hill. My son frantically tried to stop th machine with the brake and wound up putting his foot under the tire to stop it at the top of the hill. I got some large rocks to chock the wheels and got the truck to pull it to safety.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Bob, thnks for that pic. The ground layout along the edge is very much like what got me into trouble. In the case of your picture, I would have been mowing along the edge, coming from the street to the camera. At the area with the red arrow is a represetation of the little washed out pot hole I found hidden in the grass.

At the time I didn't know it was there and didn't feel a drop into it. But the front caster was in it and when I tried turning away from the edge, it just acted as a wedge. In split second the left rear was over the edge, and it was all over but the changing of underware!

[Envy Lawn Service]

The picture....

[bob]

Originally posted by Envy Lawn Service
The picture....

If you look right below your arrow, you'll see the rocks that we used to hold the mower.