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turkp15
09-01-2003, 10:44 PM
I wanted to know if you needed a license to put down organic fert.? if so is it the same as a regular License?
Thanks,
~Jeff

Popsicle
09-01-2003, 11:53 PM
I would check with your state licensing department for requirements.

Hometown Lawn Care
09-02-2003, 06:46 AM
In Massachusetts you can spray and use anything without a EPA number without a licence, Organics are 100% ok to use as long as its organic and doesnt display a EPA number.

Also.... Anytype of fertilizer (as long as its st8 fertilizer, no crabgrass killer ect..) can be used without a licence....

I am positive on this information because I had a person to person meeting with one of my state pesticide agents.

GroundKprs
09-02-2003, 08:05 AM
Perhaps MA is much more liberal in pesticide regulation than other states. Didn't have time to read the whole law, but MA law defines these terms:

""Pest'', an insect, rodent, nematode, fungus, weed, or any other form of terrestrial or aquatic plant or animal life or virus, bacterium, or other micro-organism, except viruses, bacteria or other micro-organisms on or in living man or other living animal, which is declared to be a pest by the administrator or by the department with the approval of the board.

""Pesticide'', a substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest, and any substance or mixture of substances intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant; provided that the term ""Pesticide'' shall not include any article that is a ""new animal drug'' within the meaning of section 201 (w) of the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. s 321 (w), or that has been determined by the Secretary of the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare not to be a new animal drug by a regulation establishing conditions of use for the article, or that is an animal feed within the meaning of section 201 (x) of such act (21 U.S.C. s 321 (x)).

Basically same definitions as FIFRA, the federal law. Most states regulate the application of pesticides for hire - and they regulate the pesticides allowed within the state. Just because a product has an EPA number does not mean you can use it in your state.

Hometown, and anyone else looking into chemical or alternative pest control, you had better get written confirmation of any regulation or lack thereof before you actively undertake any program. "he said it was OK," or ignorance of the law, is no defense when the law catches up with you.

woodycrest
09-02-2003, 09:15 AM
Organic fertilizer is not a pesticide.

Dchall_San_Antonio
09-02-2003, 12:33 PM
Woodycrest is looking back at the original question. From what I've seen on this list, each state has its own program for both fertilizers and pesticides. We're going to have to be careful to see that we're talking about the right issue with those two.

Popsicle's reply is probably right on.

SWD
09-03-2003, 07:45 AM
Here in the state of Texas, you have to have a Commercial Appliator's License, Catagory 3A or a Structural Pest Control License, if you receive any form of income/payment from any form of application of a pesticide. It doesn't matter if it is organic or synthetic. I have either built or maintained golf courses in seven states and noticed the application laws are remarkably similiar in scope and enforcement. With regards to fertilizer, I have never heard of specific application laws just for that.
The important point is wether or not you the applicator, receives payment.
I do work for the spokesman for the TDA, and he informed me license violation fees have gone up 3K% due to the budget shortfall. He also said contact with other States revealed fines are going way, way up as well.

woodycrest
09-03-2003, 08:01 AM
Ok...suppose you are applying corn meal as a fungicide...it is still the same product but with a different purpose.

SWD, Do you know of any golf courses that use corn gluten meal for fertilizer?

Dchall_San_Antonio
09-03-2003, 11:08 AM
I see y'all have cut to the chase.

I think that once y'all have agreed that corn meal and corn GLUTEN meal are both legitimate fertilizers, then this issue of can you apply it as a anti-fungal (in the case of corn meal) and/or a preemergent (in the case of corn GLUTEN meal) is a key concern on this forum.

I would suggest this if you believe you can do it. Apply corn gluten meal as a fertilizer in the spring and fall. Apply corn meal in the summer. If your season is long enough to work it on a 90 day cycle, then that's how I would do it. If you get a week of steady rain, you might offer a second app of corn meal "to fertilize" but really to control any fungus that might pop up. You can apply corn meal in the rain, by the way. Kinda messy but duh. I'm just saying nobody will get hurt and the grass won't be hurt.

Every organic material you apply is going to have the long term benefit of enhancing the health of the beneficial soil microbes. Organic materials also enhance the ability of the soil to prevent disease. Some just do it more efficiently. Does that make alfalfa a pesticide? -even if it is a fertilizer?

SWD
09-03-2003, 08:05 PM
Dchall, without trying to be argumentative,
however, do you have any information on the long term effects of corn gluten upon soil stability and microbial population?
Don't get me wrong, I believe organics have a place, just as synthetics do.

Dchall_San_Antonio
09-04-2003, 01:12 AM
Hi Steve,
No I don't have that info. And any info anyone might have on any other studies that were done prior to the past two years is pretty much invalidated by a recent finding.

Previously it was thought that the total number of microbe species in the soil was numbered in the tens because scientists were only able to grow about 50 species on Petri dishes in the laboratory. Now, with the popularity of DNA testing, it has been determined that there are on average 25,000 different microbial species in farm land and 45,000 different species in old growth forest.

Clearly this DNA analysis overwhelmed the previous thinking. All but 50 or so species are unnamed, let alone studied over the long term.

I can say that corn and corn gluten are digested by the microbes within a few days if there is any moisture at all. I'm not sure how you would measure any residual after digestion. Every molecule is consumed by another species of microbe or macrobe. And those microbes are consumed by other species in a food chain that is 25,000 species long and circular in places. I'd lose track of that real fast.

One more thing to add to this topic (thousands of species): I think the whole reason there is a SUDDEN increase in interest in organic gardening is this discovery of all the microbes. Because suddenly there is a reasonable explanation for why the methods and materials work. Before this discovery, the theory was this: "You apply compost, suddenly a miracle happens, and the grass gets green." Now we know that it is the microbes in the soil that manufacture plant food and share it in return for sugar in a symbiotic relationship with the plants.

I agree that organics and synthetics have their own place. That's why this forum started to keep them separated. The place for organics is on the lawns of people who want them. Hopefully with enough people writing in we can find the way to fulfill the desires of the clients without going to jail.

GroundKprs
09-04-2003, 11:39 AM
SWD and others: the main source of CGM info since later 80s has been IA State. Corn Gluten Meal Research Page (http://www.gluten.iastate.edu/) There's a better start page for overall corn meal as organic turf care, but can't find the link now.

I think the main question for all applicators is: "Can I use CGM in my state?" The EPA exempted CGM from pesticide registration requirement in the mid 90s. But since states also have to approve a pesticide also, does your state allow CGM? If they do, have they exempted licensed applicators, or unlicensed applicators for hire, from state pesticide laws for the application of CGM??? Doubtful, but you better get answer in writing from your own state.

Grassmechanic
09-04-2003, 01:05 PM
Good link, Jim. Thanks!