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lbmd1
09-29-2003, 06:06 PM
Anyone know where I can get liquid organic fert for spray applications. I have converted a 15 gallon tow behind spray unit to fit my Z rider and would like to apply organics via this method instead. Anyone familar with them and any idea on prices as well? Thanks!

Mike

Ric
09-29-2003, 11:18 PM
Texas Tea

With that 15 gallon Sprayer you should be able get your first acre finished by Halloween if you start tonight.

Nothing wrong with Texas Tea you just have the wrong set up for it. 15 gallon sprayers were made for chemicals.

Organics are great when use along with Chemicals. Chemical are what freed the world of many diseases and allowed the few to feed the many. American Agriculture is one of the last Industry that products anything for export. Without Chemicals, American Agriculture would go the way of the wind like the rest of the economy.

Chemical don't harm the environment. The people who over use them harm the environment. Use IPM and BMP along with Organics. But come into the 21st century and realize Chemical have there place. No don't over use them.

Popsicle
09-30-2003, 10:13 AM
Ric, first of all, is it possible for you to respond with a little more courtesy? He obviously felt the question was a legitimate one.

While I agree that some chemicals have their place in agriculture (I.e.: synthesized naturally-occuring compounds), your blanket statement, "chemicals don't harm the environment", is just incorrect. This is the difference between fact and opinion.

Popsicle
09-30-2003, 10:20 AM
Furthermore, there are volumes of books available regarding the fate of "American Agriculture".

Green in Idaho
09-30-2003, 11:14 AM
lbmd1
I found these with a quick Internet search:
http://www.newenglandnatural.com/orgfert.html

www.dirtworks.com


To continue your seach go to your browser search and punch
"New England" AND "Liquid fertilizer"

Exactly like that even with the "'s with caps on 'AND'.

A 15 gal is great for special mixes, or concentrations, or light doses. I think you may find out that to do full lawns for multiple properties you will want a larger tank otherwise you will be spending a lot of time searching for water refills.

As for some:
Sometimes integrated PEST management just means ignoring certain things. hint hint...;)

Ric
09-30-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Popsicle
Ric, first of all, is it possible for you to respond with a little more courtesy? He obviously felt the question was a legitimate one.

While I agree that some chemicals have their place in agriculture (I.e.: synthesized naturally-occuring compounds), your blanket statement, "chemicals don't harm the environment", is just incorrect. This is the difference between fact and opinion.

Popsicle

Sorry you are thin skinned. Yes his Question is Legitimate as was my reply.

You have only Quoted haft of my statement. People are the ones who harm the environment not chemicals. Chemicals do not get into the environment by themselves. Man must put them there in large amounts to do harm.

Education is the Key here. Unfortunately The Green Industry is labor intensive and does not attract many people who are willing or able to be Educated. The Agriculture Industry is now starting a "Certified Crop Applicator" and it will become a requirement in years to come. I believe that Organics have a place along with chemicals. That is the only reason I lurk here.

Yes I Apply Chemicals and Organics for a living. But I would like to think I have social conscience. In my 60's I got a degree in Horticulture. And I still I take two classes a week of which I must drive 100 miles to class.

We must solve this problem with Reason and not Emotion.

Popsicle
09-30-2003, 11:33 PM
Thin skinned, I am not, Ric. I don't believe your intent was to discourage future inquiries though your response was less than supportive.

As for agriculture, sustainability is where we, as a nation, should be working toward. Our reliance on fertilizers is only growing as we continue to destroy the soil. Food production is no different than turf management. Feed the soil and the rest will come.

Dchall_San_Antonio
10-01-2003, 12:23 PM
So anyway, back to the question...


I hope nobody wastes much time at the dirtworks.com site. What's up with that? All advertising all the time! And pop-up windows, too!!

If you take your 15 gallon sprayer, put in 5 gallons of liquid molasses, 5 gallons of liquid seaweed, and fill the rest with water or a good compost tea, that will cover 5 acres of grass, trees, ornamentals, or edibles as a foliar spray. Add a lot more water if you want to drench the soil. This can be sprayed every 2 weeks to improve the general health of the plants. If you use compost tea instead of water, add the compost tea last and use it all up in a day if you can. The microbes in the tea will use up all the oxygen in the sprayer and it will stink - which is something you don't want.

Many liquid organic fertilizers rely on some sort of liquified fish remains. That can smell pretty bad. Some products claim to be free of that smell. Try them at home before you embarass yourself and your client with a smelly yard.

Liquid molasses is best bought by the pound at farm co-ops. Usually you have to bring in your own container or you can buy one from them. It weighs 10.5 pounds per gallon, and at $0.09/pound, a 55-gallon drum should cost about $52.00.

Liquid seaweed can be found, but if you are going to use it in bulk, get dried seaweed and add the water yourself. Here's a link...

http://www.acadianseaplants.com/soilapplication.html

I'm writing to them to get pricing and application rate info for the dry stuff. I don't think you could afford to buy the liquid and use it at the rates I've suggested above. I'm guessing the rate will be one pound of seaweed per acre, which is very affordable at $1.00 per pound (retail). But it could be as much as 10 pounds per acre, which is $10/acre, so we'll see what I get back. For something you are going to spray every 2 weeks, I would want to see your cost be in the neighborhood of $2/acre.

Both molasses and seaweed are food for soil microbes.

Grassmechanic
10-01-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio
So anyway, back to the question...


I hope nobody wastes much time at the dirtworks.com site. What's up with that? All advertising all the time! And pop-up windows, too!!

If you take your 15 gallon sprayer, put in 5 gallons of liquid molasses, 5 gallons of liquid seaweed, and fill the rest with water or a good compost tea, that will cover 5 acres of grass, trees, ornamentals, or edibles as a foliar spray. Add a lot more water if you want to drench the soil. This can be sprayed every 2 weeks to improve the general health of the plants. If you use compost tea instead of water, add the compost tea last and use it all up in a day if you can. The microbes in the tea will use up all the oxygen in the sprayer and it will stink - which is something you don't want.

Many liquid organic fertilizers rely on some sort of liquified fish remains. That can smell pretty bad. Some products claim to be free of that smell. Try them at home before you embarass yourself and your client with a smelly yard.

Liquid molasses is best bought by the pound at farm co-ops. Usually you have to bring in your own container or you can buy one from them. It weighs 10.5 pounds per gallon, and at $0.09/pound, a 55-gallon drum should cost about $52.00.

Liquid seaweed can be found, but if you are going to use it in bulk, get dried seaweed and add the water yourself. Here's a link...

http://www.acadianseaplants.com/soilapplication.html

I'm writing to them to get pricing and application rate info for the dry stuff. I don't think you could afford to buy the liquid and use it at the rates I've suggested above. I'm guessing the rate will be one pound of seaweed per acre, which is very affordable at $1.00 per pound (retail). But it could be as much as 10 pounds per acre, which is $10/acre, so we'll see what I get back. For something you are going to spray every 2 weeks, I would want to see your cost be in the neighborhood of $2/acre.

Both molasses and seaweed are food for soil microbes. I'll add one word of caution using molasses: If you are in an area with a healthy deer population, avoid using it. Deer LOVE molasses and will graze your lawn down to the soil.

Green in Idaho
10-01-2003, 01:53 PM
OOOPS
That dirtworks link should have been www.dirtworks.net
net NOT com

Sorry!

I reread your post and see this time that the rig is for towing behind a ztr.... okay that make more sense size wise. It's not like you want to use a ztr to pull a 50 gal tank or something larger.... And the mobility of it is more practical to 'pull up' to a hose bib, rather than draggin hose.... cool!

Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio
If you take your 15 gallon sprayer ... that will cover 5 acres of grass, trees, ornamentals, or edibles as a foliar spray. .

Nice!
15 gallons for 5 acres= 3 gallons per acre

Yup, my reference says liquid kelp is best applied at 1/2-1 oz per 1,000 sq ft. That' about 43 oz per acre That recipe chops it kelp to 1/3. Going backwards it would 43 x 3 =129 oz of mix per acre (gallon is 128 oz). So even a lighter application could be done.

I like the mixed molasses idea too. But how about spraying that through the nozzles? A good filter needs to be in place to prevent clogs eh?

While it is true that less is better for foliar applications, it needs to be noted that light foliar applications are not going to do much for 'fertilizing' per se. The kelp is great for trace minerals and conditioning plants/soil. But you are not laying down much nitrogen.

Yes, it will help stimulate the microbes root development and all, but a homeowner needs to understand it would have to be done in conjunction with other beefier fertilizers too.

"I'm going to ferilize your lawn only with kelp" is probably not going to give the result a homeowner wants.

***************************
From the commercial stand point though let's remember that EVERY function has a cost.

IF I'm going to pull a sprayer on a trailer every day-- and I'm going to be maintaining the sprayer, making compost tea, mixing the juice, unloading, occasionally running out in the middle of a job, slower mow times if I spray and mow at same time, etc..... THAT is going to increase my costs and time. Instead of 14 properties I may only service 12 properties in a day.

IF I dedicate days to spray only, doing it every month instead of 3 applications will drive costs up obviously.

In any event the costs need to be considered and accounted for before bidding.

So from a homeowner's standpoint of someone doing their organic lawn care as "oh this is nice and I enjoy playing in my yard experimenting" time is of little importance. Same can be said of a facility manger (golf course, school grounds) who is on salary.

My point is the cost of the material corn $/lb or $/Nlb or 4/gallon is only part of the equation.

Cheryl
10-02-2003, 09:25 AM
Popsicle,

Ric's style is to be as abrasive as possible while preaching to us about his knowledge, sense of honor, patriotism, and righteousness.

I am surprised he hasn't asked anybody if they were licensed (although, I'm sure that's coming).

He's probably a beaten down old CPO (when all you had to do was apply) with nothing to do but butt into others business and expound on the correctness of his thinking.

He would be a good double for a Barney 5 (cause he is so pathetic), if he was funny. Instead he just gets under peoples skin.

His advice is probably good, but who cares. I'd rather get bad advice than have to listen to his mouth.

Ric, why don't you turn up the oxygen bottle. I think you are depriving your brain at our expense.

1MajorTom
10-02-2003, 07:57 PM
Cheryl,

Read this posting guideline. You have broken this guideline with your attack against Ric.

You are not permitted to post or mention information that contains content intended to victimize, harass, degrade, or intimidate an individual or group of individuals on the basis of religion, gender, race, ethnicity, age, disability, or sexual orientation. Hate speech of any type will result in suspension at LawnSite.com.

Ric's well capable of taking care of himself, and really doesn't need me to step in. But I think Ric's a good guy, and if you stick around long enough, I'm sure you will learn something from him.

Green in Idaho
10-02-2003, 08:00 PM
CPO as in Chief???

Ric
10-02-2003, 09:48 PM
Certified Pesticide Operator

Dchall_San_Antonio
10-03-2003, 02:42 AM
I'll try to touch on the thoughts I can clarify from my previous post.

Molasses diluted as much as I suggested is pretty thin and will not clog anything. I've seen folks recommend using it full strength in hose-end sprayers. I don't see how that would work at all. I use 3 ounces in my hose-end sprayer and fill the rest with water to spray 1,000 square feet. And, yes, I realize you folks don't use hose end sprayers, so I'm not suggesting it, I'm just saying how I use it at home.

Kelp and molasses don't have much nitrogen. If I had a better idea for getting N into a organic liquid form, I would have suggested one. I suppose you could pee into it. Organic urea is prohibitively expensive which is why the synthetic urea is used. For y'all's use, the synthetic urea would be a great alternative IF the home owner agrees to use it. Chemically it is identical to the natural product, but there's that little technicality about how it's made.

I generally don't suggest using blood meal as a fertilizer, because it is too hot for me; but blood would definitely get the N in there for you. I don't have a good rate for using blood meal as a spray (or anything else). If you're used to seeing the price for blood meal at the box stores, it can be had for a much better price in bulk at feed stores.

And, yes Cheryl, Ric's writing style might not work on the Home Quilting Network board, but contrary to your observation, he is very astute to the in's and out's to professional lawn care. When he writes I read it very carefully. In general, if folks can't relax and stick to the original topics, I'll be inclined to close the discussion to stop counterproductive sniping.

This organic board is uncharted waters for the professionals. There is a lot of skepticism about the whole topic. Up until I sort of started forcing the issue, the organic discussions were more or less dismissed for lack of credible defense. I'm trying to bring in what I've learned about the organic materials and useful products to give the folks who are looking for help some alternatives that work in the business world of mass production and state licensing.

I'm not trying to twist anyone's arm to change from the standard Lesco program to all organic. I'm just presenting the organic program for those who have that inclination or customers who are looking for something different. I also do not have an ax to grind against chemical programs. Organics, as we understand it today, is not the be-all/end-all in defining Nature's Truth on how to manage the planet. It is an alternative that works when you know what you're doing.

Grassmechanic
10-03-2003, 07:28 AM
Well said, David

driggy
10-14-2003, 05:31 PM
David, great mane(mine too), I am very happy that lawnsite has this forum, You manage it very well, it is very informative, on my lawn customers I think in spring, we will start out with the usual weed n feed then try corn meal for the follow ups, keep up the great work you are appreciated.

Dchall_San_Antonio
10-23-2003, 10:26 AM
WEED AND FEED? :eek:

Right after I said I don't have an ax to grind over synthetics, this subject comes up!

What the homeowner users are finding is that the weed killer in WNF products is mistimed. Does this ring true with y'all? Here's the theory as to why they are not getting perfect results. WNF products have an active ingredient that works best on actively growing weeds and the biological activity in the soil will deactivate it reasonably quickly after application. But the problem is that at first the weeds are busy benefitting from the Feed part of the WNF product at first and not really taking in the Weed killer. Then by the time the weed is growing healthy enough to absorb good amounts of the weed killer, it's too late. The W is decomposing. So the timing on those products is a problem. I'm listening to radio programs (I know, great scientific research sources :D ) and they are all getting down on WNF.

What is being recommeded to replace WNF products is to apply a fertilizer (and this is independent of organic/synthetic issues) first and follow up in 2 weeks with a spot spraying of a selective herbicide (also independent of organic/synthetic). By doing it this way, the poison goes only to the target and it goes at the best time.

There are other issues with using the WNF herbicide in areas where there are tree roots and making the trees sick (or worse).

So rather than grinding my ax anymore, I'll ask whether we should open a new topic on this subject or am I more or less on track with this? If anyone thinks I'm not, please go ahead and open the new topic and I'll catch up later. :)

Green in Idaho
10-23-2003, 11:49 AM
I disagree with that representation of how WNF functions.

Ric
10-23-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Green in Idaho
I disagree with that representation of how WNF functions.

David

I also disagree with how you represented W&F. However I will say You are more open minded than I though. I will also try and be more open minded.

It is not WHAT you do it HOW you do it. No home owner will not read a label and think if a little is good then a lot is better (in fact worst)

Weed & Feed is nothing more than Fertilizer with a systemic herbicide. Most commercial feed and feeds are applied in the spring or fall for winter weeds. Application made to early before weed germination sometimes are not effective. Weeds must uptake the herbicide in order for it to work and this might take several weeks Most herbicides work by stopping photosynthetic and this also takes time. Most homeowner will not understand the time factor and retreat. Soil makes a big different. CEC or Cation Exchange Capacity or the soils ability to hold the chemicals will also determine the effect of W&F. Soil that hold herbicides will control weeds better because seeds will germinate and up take the herbicide. Soil Biota will help to degrade the herbicide so it doesn't hurt the environment. HERE IS WHERE ORGANICS ARE VERY IMPORTANT. SOM soil organic material has a high CEC and Biota. Poor soils can be enhanced by organic materials. This soil then holds water (increase Field capacity) CEC and soil Biota. Therefore less synthetic chemical are needed to allow are plants to express themselves to the fullest. Yes Organics are good and by using organic material you can decrease the impact of synthetics. Synthetic used wisely can fill the gap that organics can not. Bridge that Gap with Bridge products

Here in the bug Capital of America insecticides are a necessary evil how every if Our Florida sand is enhanced by organic material then higher CEC and soil biota will help to keep leaching to a minim and give more residual

Green in Idaho
10-23-2003, 10:07 PM
[i] But the problem is that at first the weeds are busy benefitting from the Feed part of the WNF product at first and not really taking in the Weed killer.[/B]

I think there is the misinformation.

An affective application is going to be absorbed rather quickly, within 2-3 days. Once it is absorbed it will take awhile for the weed to succumb to the lethal treatment.

There is foliar absorbtion and there is root absorbtion. Foliar is relatively quick.

That is why Scotts and other ho products require watering before the product is applied-- to make a wet leaf surface for the dry granule to stick to. The herbicide is often in the small particle thereby more likely to stick while the fert may be a larger particle dropping to the soil zone.

Since the fert is almost always going to be a root absorbtion- any herbicide that uses root absorption for effectiveness is going to occur at or near the same rate as the fert application.

*****

So I would say as general guideline the herbicide uptake is going to be quicker than the fertilzer uptake.

But then I'm no scientist. Purely conjecture on my part from years for applications, reading labels and seeing the effects.

*********
As for recommending applying fert and then 2 weeks later applying herbicide.... For a homeowner that may be easy. For an LCO that is cost-prohibitive! NO WAY!

Both have to done in one visit to be practical. Otherwise you are selling TWO services and therefore the cost is twice as much. Most of the cost in a fert service is the time to get there, set-up, and the service stuff (invoicing, etc.).

*******
Accidental herbicide damage on trees in the applied area, yes that is common. Not a huge deal. Seldom kills a trees, just stuns them a little. NOT good, but just one more likely side-effect of herbicides.

Add accidental wind-drift too. Everyone knows all applicators ONLY apply in calm conditions. :)