Upgrading

[TGCummings]

I've never used anything but a 21&quot; walk-behind for my residentials. Currently I have a couple of Toro Prolines and hit about 70 lawns a week with 'em solo. My thinking now is that I'll upgrade next year (earlier if I continue to grow at the rate I have this year) and get me a 36 or 48 walker. The discussions I've read here have already told me what the better machines are out there, but my question to you long-time users is: How much better would this upgrade make my business? Is it something where that'll be 'neat' when I get around to it, or is the opinion that I'm simply killing myself now and the longer I wait the worse off I am?<p>As always, appreciate your input. :)<p>-TGC

[lawrence stone]

If you are mowing 70 lawns a week you should<br>already own a 36&quot; and 48&quot; walk behind.<p>My advise is to buy two 32&quot; toro/exmark (t-bar or pistol grip your choice)walkbehinds with a couple of sulkys.<p>If can do 70 lawns with trimming mowers they must be small. You will cut you time in half<br>with the 32&quot;.

[pete]

you wont belive the difference. go buy a big mower. With that many lawns you do really need it. It will take you a bit to get used to controling the bigger mower but youll love it

[excel25]

How could you afford not to, if you had a 32 or 48 you would cut so much time off of what you do now. yards that took me 1 hr now take about 20 min. Good Luck. invest in yourself!<p>----------<br>Dennis<br>EXCEL LAWN CARE

[TGCummings]

Wow, you tempt me to run out and talk to my dealer immediately. If what you're saying is true, I might have to do just that. However, I have another question or two:<p>I did some checking and the nearest Exmark dealer is about 20 miles from where I live (Gravely dealer is more like 200 miles away). My local dealer carries Toro. Would a large Toro be in the same class quality-wise as the Exmark and Gravely, IYO? What would you say would be a fair price range to expect for a quality 32 Toro? If I go in, I wanna go in ready. :)<p>Also, I mow a lot of backyards in my residentials as well and it doesn't seem a big deck mower would get through most gates. Might it be best to take a 21&quot; Proline with me as well to hit the rear yards? If so, I'll need a bigger carrying space so I'll have to invest in a good trailer as well. <p>Sound like I'm on the right track here?<p>-TGC

[HOMER]

UH, YUP, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOUR MOWING 70 A WEEK, BY YOURSELF, WITH A PUSH MOWER!<p>MAN.......I NEED YOUR HELP!<p>HOMER

[cantoo]

TGC could you give us some square footage for the lawns you do? My wife does most of our cutting but we do mostly bigger properties. We have people with small lots calling us but haven't priced them, maybe we will start doing small lawns if the times and prices are good.

[columbiaplower]

go get a exmark metro 36in 12.5 hp add a velke u will do those lawns in 1/2 the time.<br>do it today. You are wasting your time with the little mowers

[TGCummings]

Okay, okay, I'm sold. I plan to go down and talk to my dealer about his line of Toro big machines very soon. If that doesn't fly, I'll drive out and talk to the Exmark guy nearby. JIC, would you recommend any online sites for research and/or purchasing?<p>In the meantime, I'll need to invest in a trailer. Any recommendations there?<p>Homer has convinced me I work too hard for my buck. Remind me not to tell him I got trained in the biz by my step-father who never bought us anything better than a $200 K-Mart bargain mower for the jobs we had to do. <p>(Needless to say the man never made money in the biz like I make money in the biz. :) )<p>Cantoo, my residentials range from dinky (I just stopped service on a lawn you almost couldn't turn a mower around on. Hey, they paid.) to lawns upwards of 10,000 square feet or more. Pricing ranges from $20 a month to $150 or more. I'm not doing too bad, but I'm beginning to realize that my 'hunches' early on were correct and I should've followed my instincts. I came minutes away from buying a big machine a little over a year ago. I guess there's still a lot of my frugal step-father in me after all. <p>Nonetheless, I'm learning. That's one thing I've never been afraid to do.<p>Again, I appreciate everyone's input. You've gone a long way to setting me straight on this. If you have any advice on a trailer (I have always worked out of the back of a Nissan Frontier pickup), I'd appreciate it. <p>Thanks again. :)<p>-TGC

[AB Lawn Care]

TGCummings<p>This is one area where I can really give you some help!I have run Walker mowers for 6 years now.They are awsome machines.But I do not suggest you buy one yet!Last year I bought a Scag 14hp dual hydro 36''.Bought it to replace most of the push-mower work.I now have a different outlook on walk-behinds.Even a 36'' will cut your time in 1/2.You do not need a rider just yet!I am thinking of switching to all walk-behinds!There is one big thing you must get though if you get a walk-behind.Get a dual hydro!!!!!!Yes it cost much more than a gear or belt.But it will pay for itself in no time flat!!!!!Trust me!!!!I hope this will help you out!<p>----------<br>from:Adam<br>AB Lawn Care

[lawrence stone]

Forget the trailer buy a handy ramp endgate.<p>http://www.ncrampsystems.com/catalog.htm<p>

[TGCummings]

Adam, yes, that helps me a lot. My next question was should I go gear or hydro. :)<p>But ... why did you say that you don't recommend I buy one just yet? That confused me... ;)<p>Stone, my problem with spacing for everything will still exist. With a trailer I'll be able to carry more, particularly if I get a trailer with a ramp. Any suggestions?<p>-TGC

[Barkleymut]

I think Adam was saying not to buy a Walker ZTR yet. With a price tag of 8 grand or up I think your dad would faint if you bought one. I agree with Adam though go with the hydro walk behind mower. Your looking at about a grand more than a belt drive but it is easier to manuever on those small lawns that you are maintaining. A good website for you to check out is alamia.com. A 5x10 trailer is a decent size and can easily be pulled by a Nissan. A 6x12 would be a better choice in my opinion because it would allow room for expansion. Get a used trailer, about $450 (5x10) $550 (6x12). Good Luck and let us know if you have any more questions.

[KirbysLawn]

When I started a few years ago I used a Bob Cat 48&quot; gear drive, walk behind (no velkie). My next purchase was a Great Dane 52&quot; Chariot, then traded the Bob Cat for a Great Dane Scamper 48&quot; Hydro walk behind with velkie.<p>I had to use my walk behind last week without the velkie and could not beleive how long it took to mow and how tired I was when I finished!<p>As far as the gate in the rear lawns go, most 36&quot; mowers go through them. Great Dane makes a 48&quot; mower that fits through 36&quot; gates! :o It's called the Gateway.<p>I have never owned anything but an enclosed trailer and only reccomend them. I currently have a Haulmark 16' with side and rear ramp, fully wired, makes great advertising, gives a professional image, keeps equipment out of weather and help prevent theft. I have never had anything stolen to date, a friend of mine had everything stolen off his open trailer last month and is now out of business.<p>Just my .02 cents worth.<p>Ray

[TGCummings]

You guys have been an unbelievable amount of help. I can't thank you enough. <p>(Well, I could divide my Craig-pledge up and send it to you instead. ;) )<p>I'm leaning at this point toward a Toro Proline Hydro-Drive with the Floating Deck. My smaller machines are Toro and I've been happy with them (even if I have been working too hard, apparently :) ), plus my dealer is local and used to giving me a good deal. The 36&quot; is listed as being 3-in-1, which is what I need, and comes with a 15hp or 20hp Kohler. I'll check prices but I'm leaning toward 20hp. If I'm going to upgrade, why not go the distance?<p>The one thing I haven't found for the Toro is a price listing. The Exmark and Gravely sites had a price range for their machines, but the Toro site says check the dealer. Anyone have an idea what I'll spend on a machine like that?<p>As always, I'm open to your comments regarding this. Definitely let me know if you think a quick 20-mile trip to the next town is worth going after an Exmark or if you've simply heard bad things about the Proline Hydros. <p>And, as always, thanks! :)<p>-TGC

[AB Lawn Care]

I am very happy to hear that you have decided to buy a Walk-Behind!That is a hard question!Toro or Exmark Walk-Behind??????I can tell you this,I have never owner a Exmark or Toro Walk-Behind.But I can tell you this.I have heard alot about Exmark's quality of cut,On the other hand you can upgrade to a much larger deck with the Toro.You will have to make a hard decision!And yes it can be worth it to drive 1/2 hour to a dealer.I use to deal with my walker mower dealer in town untill he started to rip me off.Now i drive 1/2 hour to an other dealer.He deals with hundred's of contractors and is a great help.He also has a massive parts supply.Hope this helps!Don't you just love this fourm!!!I wish I had it when I was starting out!<p>----------<br>from:Adam<br>AB Lawn Care

[TGCummings]

Absolutely love this forum, Adam! :)<p>And, although I'm not starting out (been doing it the hard way for myself for nearly six years ;) ), I feel as though it's the 'starting of a brand new day' as Sting might put it. :)<p>Gonna talk to my Toro guy first thing this morning. Let ya know how it goes...<p>Also, I found a Wells Cargo trailer dealer in my area. Probably target Saturday as the day to go speak with him. If that's too much trailer for me, there are plenty of options around here. <p>Well, time to hit the field. It's gonna be so hard walking behind that 21&quot; Proline today, dreaming of bigger things... ;)<p>-TGC

[KirbysLawn]

Shop around, Wells Cargo is a little over priced around here. I saved $1700.00 buying a Haulmark, looks better, chrome wheels, finished ceiling, and so on. A photo of my trailer is in the &quot;My Truck&quot; link below.<p>----------<br>Ray Kirby - Kirby's Cuttin' Edge Lawn Maintenance<br>Home Page (http://www.kirbycuttin.com), My Truck (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=681893&a=4967153), Lawn Photos (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=681893&a=4967155)

[scottt]

kirbyslawns,<br>Those are some incredible before and after pictures. How did you learn how make lawns look so good? I am just starting out and do only mowing now, but would like to get into fertilizing, aerating, etc.

[KirbysLawn]

Study, study, study. Take proper soil samples and send to lab, use quality products (I use Lesco only), and EDUCATE your customers. I also mow with sharp blades, I change blades every 8 hours or so.<p>----------<br>Ray Kirby - Kirby's Cuttin' Edge Lawn Maintenance<br>Home Page (http://www.kirbycuttin.com), My Truck (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=681893&a=4967153), Lawn Photos (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=681893&a=4967155)

[AGG Lawn Maintenance]

70 Lawns a week with a 21&quot; mower :O)? Do you trim edge and blow? Check the gates on all your accounts. Most of our lawns that have gates we can get through with a 48&quot; mower on an angle or two of us lift up one side at a time. Some of the smaller gates run about 36&quot; so a 36&quot; mower might be your best bet. We can run 70 lawns with two guys in 5 days. Two 48&quot; mowers cutting edging and blowing. If you do all that with a 21&quot; mower edge trim and blow you might be the guy I need to run my company while I sit back and get rich. P.S. You should be able to put a 36&quot; mower in the back of your truck and get to boards and a ramp kit at Home Depot.<br>Good Luck<br>Travis AG&G Lawn Maintenance<br><p><font size="1">Edited by: AGG Lawn Maintenance

[Jason]

You need a 32&quot; or 36&quot; walk behind I just bought one in place of a 21&quot; mower it cuts your time in half. I'm looking to take on more lawns now that i got the exmark 32&quot; and i do about 30 to 40 a week. You won't beleive the differance it will make.<p>Jason

[MOW ED]

I've got a Toro 44&quot; hydro Proline that is great. I also have a Walker GHS 26EFI with a 42&quot; deck. Im 95% residential and this fits on a 6x14 trailer. <br>I would recommend the Toro and eventually move to the Walker. <br>I have an example of what each does for me. The Toro has a proslide attatched <br>( www.novaecorp.com ) and I have a group of residentials that usually take me 3 1/2 hours to mow trim and blow using the Toro.<br>With sharp blades using the 42&quot; Walker with the No-Catch deflector, I can mow,trim and blow in a little over 2 1/2 hours. I am a solo operator. Take it for what its worth. <br>On the trailer, I am not sure your truck will pull an enclosed trailer, check your owners manual or you will be buying a new transmission every couple of months.<br>I was just curious about 1 other thing. You stated above that you have some lawns that you get $20.00 per MONTH ? Was that a misprint? Even if the lawn is 1000 sq you should have a minimum charge thats probably closer to 20 per cut or dump the job. It costs more to maintain your equipment as well as all your other expenses (- travel expenses, vehicle maintenance, insurance)than the job is worth. Good Luck.

[lawrence stone]

ed wrote:<p>&gt; I have a group of residentials that usually take me 3 1/2 hours to mow trim and blow using the Toro.<br>With sharp blades using the 42&quot; Walker with the No-Catch deflector, I can mow,trim and blow in a little over 2 1/2 hours. <p>How can that be? A toro hydro goes 6 mph.<p>You would have to be going 9mph on the walker.<p>Plus since the toro deck is offset more than the walker doesn't the toro trim better?

[TGCummings]

On the trailer, I ended up going with a 6 1/2 X 12 flatbed with support bars and a built-in steel-mesh ramp. It's a Texas Bragg and the dealer is about 2 minutes from my house. I can build sidewalls on it easily enough if necessary. <p>This one is a little more trailer than I needed right now, but the next size down was probably a little bit too small. I figured better to have a little too much room than not enough, eh?<p>Still, it is awfully heavy for my Nissan so I might have to think about upgrading my pickup or &quot;trading down&quot; if this one seems it won't work out. I've already spoken to my trailer guy about that possibility.<p>They sold enclosed trailers as well, nice ones with the side doors, et. al., but like was mentioned here, I couldn't pull it with what I got. <p>More upgrades later. :)<p>-TGC

[TGCummings]

Travis,<p>Yes. Edge, trim, mow, blow out. I learned growing up to work at a very fast pace with very bad equipment, so the 21&quot; Toro self-propelled was a major upgrade when I took over the business. Still, I always dreamed of bigger machines but just couldn't make the commitment to that kind of cash w/o knowing I could significantly improve my production time. Virtually no one in my area is using anything much bigger than a 21&quot;, but if it does what I believe it will, I think I'll end up being a trend-setter. ;)<p>As far as fitting the 36&quot; Exmark in the back of my pickup, I can. However, I cannot fit it, my edger, and a 21&quot; in the same bed and still have room for all the extras. Now, with my trailer, I can fit all that and maybe invest in a vac or something down the road. :)<p><br>-TGC<br>

[TGCummings]

Mow Ed,<p>That's right, I have some very small accounts (maybe a handful) that take me virtually no time as-is. Most sit next to bigger yards that I take care of and it's more like picking up a quick extra $20 for about 20-30 minutes mow time a month. I've always wondered whether they're worth keeping, but couldn't talk myself into dropping a good, paying customer just because they happen to have a small yard. I figure I'm making my money/hour, making someone happy, and I'm not bogged down by a lot of them. ::shrug::<p>Money's money. :)<p>I suppose if you wanted to get technical, you could discount the smallest jobs I do every week and I'd fit in the 50-60 lawns per week category.<p>Now, if you wanna start talking about jobs I need to lose, I've got some really big jobs I know I'm not making enough money on. I think I'd sooner lose a bigger job I'm spending 6 hours/month on and not clearing $20/hour with than lose five smaller jobs I'm spending 1 hour on combined and making $100/hour on 'em. <p>Does that make sense, or am I in some way killing myself with that math?<p>I make good money on most of my bigger jobs, I just have some that have 'been in the family' for 20 years that I know are killing me. Hard to just cut someone lose like that. My hope is that the new machine will help me reconcile remaining with them as my production/hour increases...<p>-TGC<br><p><font size="1">Edited by: TGCummings

[MOW ED]

Lawrence,<br>I know that it sounds strange that I can do this group so fast but I just did this experiment over the last two cuttings. I have a new Walker with the speed up kit on it and I spend much less time making corners and turn arounds with it. The Walker is a center discharge so I have two trim edges which saves time also. These properties are on a river and I still use the Toro for some of the steep banked areas. The Walker would make it but the slope is close to 40 degrees. I don't think I'm going 9mph but this unit does seem faster than my old one that I sold. Don't get me wrong, I would never sell my Toro because when it gets wet out, there is nothing better. My Walker is my moneymaker and the Toro saves my accounts when things get tough.

[trimmer]

If you are going to go with a hydro walkbehind I would look into a wright stander 36&quot; it would be much more munuvarable than a walkbehind with a sulky.

[lawrence stone]

Good point about the stander. Very little<br>diff. in price. If I get to the point where<br>I need a &quot;new&quot; machine I might just give a<br>61&quot; stander a look.

[TGCummings]

My initial impression of my brand new 36&quot; Turf Trimmer HP Exmark:<p>Sucker is big.<p>I probably have a 10k sq. ft. front yard, give or take, and I've been out front practicing my speed and turns and lemme tell ya ... it ain't as easy as it looks in daydreams. ;)<p>Gonna grab a bite to eat and go practice some more. Gonna be a long night of practice and preparing the trailer. Might not get the thing in the field 'til next week but I'm shooting for Thursday.<p>Let ya know. :)<p>-TGC

[TGCummings]

The handling on this thing is definitely starting to get easier. It's pulling slightly to the right so I'm trying to set the 'tracking' for the perfect run. Been a busy week making up for time lost during purchase and practice, so I haven't had time to set up the trailer. That's why God made weekends.<p>I expect to get the Exmark in the field on Monday after a long weekend of catch-up, prep, and practice. The missus already understands we're staying in this weekend so papa can play with his new toy. ;)<p>I'll let ya know how it goes!<p>-TGC

[AB Lawn Care]

Glad to hear you got it!One thing though when you do start to use it on clients lawns go no faster than 1/2 speed untill you have fully gotten use to the controls!Trust me!!!!I put mine onto a 4 lane highway one day becouse I was going fast and had no yet gotten use to the controls!I'm glad an 18 wheeler was not in my way when I flew on to that highway!Also even at 1/2 speed you will be cutting twice as much as a push mower.Take it easy and injoy the ride!Update us on how much time you have shaved off!<p>----------<br>from:Adam<br>AB Lawn Care

[TGCummings]

Will do, Adam. :)<p>I haven't gotten the thing up over speed 3 yet, and I'm wondering why I ever would. ;)<p>-TGC<p><br>&lt;font size=&quot;1&quot;&gt;Edited by: TGCummings<p><br>&lt;font size=&quot;1&quot;&gt;Edited by: TGCummings<br><p><font size="1">Edited by: TGCummings