Clay like soil

[ztoro]

Or soil has a lot of clay in it and although we got the grass to come it doesnt seem to be thrivingcame in early spring of this year.... I water it at least once every other day if not once a day. I used the scott fertilizer and still seems hurting. Is their anything else I can do to help the grass along? Beside tearing it up and starting over with good soil... I know its going to be winter but would like to know what I should do for early spring......

[kickin sum grass]

soil test first to see what is going on. All the fert in the world won't do a thing if things are out of wack. Clay soil will grow grass, it sometimes is harder to do so. Where we are from it is almost all clay everywhere you go. After soil testing you can post results here if you are unsure what they mean. Somebody here will help out with recomendations.

[excel25]

What type of grass ? and where are you located?

[ztoro]

Originally posted by excel25
What type of grass ? and where are you located?

I have the basic contractor mix from home depot..

Its rye, fescue, and i think some bluegrass.

live in NJ

[Team Gopher]

Hi Ztoro,

Here is some information you may find helpful.

"The perfect mix for a super lawn is 50% sand, 25% silt and 25% clay.
The problem most people have with their soil is that it has too much clay or sand. This means you have to add organic material to the soil to get the right mix. "

From this site (http://people.senecac.on.ca/john.telford/lawncare.htm).

Here is another quote.

"Typically, soil has either too much clay or too much sand. In either situation, working organic peat moss into the soil will improve it. Dig 2 inches of peat moss (or peat moss combined with compost) into the top 6 inches of soil. When mixed with heavy clay soil, peat creates air pockets that give roots room to grow and breathe. In sandy soil, peat moss retains the water and fertilizer that usually drain away too quickly."

From this site (http://www.czguest.com/docs/articles/summer/YARD0604.html).

[ztoro]

Originally posted by Team Gopher
Hi Ztoro,

Here is some information you may find helpful.

"The perfect mix for a super lawn is 50% sand, 25% silt and 25% clay.
The problem most people have with their soil is that it has too much clay or sand. This means you have to add organic material to the soil to get the right mix. "

From this site (http://people.senecac.on.ca/john.telford/lawncare.htm).

Here is another quote.

"Typically, soil has either too much clay or too much sand. In either situation, working organic peat moss into the soil will improve it. Dig 2 inches of peat moss (or peat moss combined with compost) into the top 6 inches of soil. When mixed with heavy clay soil, peat creates air pockets that give roots room to grow and breathe. In sandy soil, peat moss retains the water and fertilizer that usually drain away too quickly."

From this site (http://www.czguest.com/docs/articles/summer/YARD0604.html).

Team Gopher,

Thanks, this seems to be my problem. The water just runs off the yard and doesnt seem to soak in. The soil seems very compact. Should I do anything before the winter? like use an airator(spell?)? Since the grass is already grown in I cant mix in any peat moss, any suggestions?

[ztoro]

thanks again Gopher that web page is very helpful!

[Grassmechanic]

ztoro - you can aerate, then topdress with compost or a finely ground peat moss. This is not a one-time cure. This will have to be done for several years to achieve desirable results, but it can be done on an existing lawn.

[heritage]

Z Toro,
You can apply pellitized gypsum at 50 lbs per 1000 sq. ft. on an annual basis in the fall after aeration. Over time (3-5) years soil drainage should improve greatly. Also keep an eye on soil tests base saturtion percent as the excess Ca in gypsum may force out some Mg and K so you may have to add some sul-po-mag in the spring to keep things in balance.

Pete D

[timturf]

I disagree with 50% sand, this mix will make concrete!!

DON'T ADD SAND, ADD ORGANIC MATTER, AND FOLLOW SOIL TEST RECOMMENDATIONS

[Rtom45]

Another option in dealing with clay soils is to use a soil conditioner. We use a product called Aqua-Save. Conditioners work by altering soil chemistry, in this case allowing water to be absorbed by the soil rather than repelled at the surface. In combination with other procedures (aeration, dethatching, ...) it helps eliminate many of the problems associated with clay soils.

[bad_chad48]

I do not claim to have any type of degree in the chemistry of soil. In saying that, I am learning as I go, and this post has grabed my attention. Reason being: there is a whole lot of clay in this area, I mean so bad, I could probably sell it to walmart as molding clay. I have talked to many people in the business asking them about how to resolve the problem and all that I have heard so far is fertilizer and lime. But, I know that soil is like any ecosystem, and needs many factors to be at its best.

Well sorry about the lengthy opening. My question to those of you that might really be able to teach me somthing. (in this posting, it is mentioned to add organic material and sand to the existing clay then combine) well, what do you mean about the organic material? What exactly are you using and how are you using it? Where do you obtain this organic material?

Like I said, I am eager to learn from you guys.

Thank you
Chad

[Ric]

Chad

Horticulture Gypsum not lime will break down clay. But this can take years and repeated applications. Alway fertilizer about 5 day after applying Gypsum. no I am not going into a chem lesson here.

SOM (Soil Organic Matter) is anything Organic in the soil. This can be old roots from plants slothing old roots. or decomposed plant clipping, etc. However your question is what to use. Soil analysis can tell you a lot. However organic material (the parent to Organic Matter) is a matter of economic. Compost, Peat Humus, reed Sedge Humus, Sphagnum peat moss, sawdust, and manure are all sources of organic material.

In my area the horticulture dump grinds the plants clipping and resells it. I buy it for $ 10.00 loading fee 14 yard loads. I take it back and dump it on the ground and put 46-0-0 on top of it so it composts faster. I also turn it over every now and again to keep air in it. This is a very cheap source of organic material.

[KirbysLawn]

Ztoro,

Your profile is:

ztoro
New Member

Registered: Nov 2003
Location: My desk
Posts: 26

How are we to give good info if we don't know where you are? Take the time to update your profile and maybe we can give a little more help.....I have no idea where "your desk" is....

[ztoro]

if you read the whole post you will notice in the 4th post I say "I live in New JErsey......"

Therefore "My Desk" is in NJ

Take the time to read my posts...

[Grassmechanic]

Chad - I have quite a bit of experience with the clay soil you are describing. Fertilizer and lime won't help your situation much. I took 12" of compost and spread it over the clay. I then plowed the compost in ( a roto-tiller would only scratch the surface). This was repeated every year, spring and fall, for 5 years. I also added gypsum every spring. After 5 yrs., this soil is now a very nice clay loam that is easy to work in. I should mention that this was done in an area to make a garden, not a lawn, but the same principal could be done with an existing lawn if the lawn is aerated then topdressed with compost. As TimTurf mentioned, DO NOt and sand to clay - you'll end up with soil as hard as concrete. Once you've added quite a bit of compost to the clay however, you may add some sand. TimTurf, Ric, and GroundKpr are the most knowledgeable on this site when it comes to soils. Follow their advice.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by ztoro
if you read the whole post you will notice in the 4th post I say "I live in New JErsey......"

Therefore "My Desk" is in NJ

Take the time to read my posts...

Take a second and fill out the profile correct. I don't have time to sort thru all your post trying to figure out where you are from, I missed the NJ. A quick glance in the profile will let people know and they can help you with your problem. I read your first post and know what your issue is, just wanted to make sure correct advise was given.

However, if you think it's my job to sort thru and find it then, well....keep waiting.

[ztoro]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
I read your first post and know what your issue is, just wanted to make sure correct advise was given..

are you going to share your expertise or are you mad at me?


Originally posted by KirbysLawn
However, if you think it's my job to sort thru and find it then, well....keep waiting..

I dont think its your job, however seeing how many posts you have I would think you have the time....

[Ric]

Originally posted by ztoro
are you going to share your expertise or are you mad at me?

I dont think its your job, however seeing how many posts you have I would think you have the time....


With an attitude like yours, no one will share their expertise.


Ray

Calm your blood pressure this jerk is not worth it.

[ztoro]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Ztoro,

Your profile is:

ztoro
New Member

Registered: Nov 2003
Location: My desk
Posts: 26

How are we to give good info if we don't know where you are? Take the time to update your profile and maybe we can give a little more help.....I have no idea where "your desk" is....

Your right there was no attitude in this post.....

Thanks Ric.

Read read read... If you dont have anything of value to offer, dont offer anything....

Signed
The Jerk

[ztoro]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Take a second and fill out the profile correct. I don't have time to sort thru all your post trying to figure out where you are from, I missed the NJ. A quick glance in the profile will let people know and they can help you with your problem. I read your first post and know what your issue is, just wanted to make sure correct advise was given.

However, if you think it's my job to sort thru and find it then, well....keep waiting.

no attitude here either. one thing you got right is people need to calm there blood pressure.... but that doesnt help with my clay like soil..... :)

[Doster's L & L]

ztoro, i think Ric was scolding you and not kirby. kirby is trying to help you out and not screw you over or anything. gees man, it would help EVERYONE out on ALL posts you start IMMEDIATELY instead of having to tell where you live a # of times on every thread. Take the time to change your location, dude. People will remember you and they will recommend that Roundup is your cure-all problem because you were an arse on that one site they saw you on a long time ago...this is just a scenario. Listen to timturf and Ric, they are very intelligent and experienced in the lawn/landscape/soils ect. field.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by ztoro
are you going to share your expertise or are you mad at me?

I dont think its your job, however seeing how many posts you have I would think you have the time....

First, no I will not "share my expertise" until you take the time to fill out the damn form as it should be. Since you took the time to make the comment "seeing how many posts you have I would think you have the time I must point out the following. My average post per day count is 2.70, yours is 3.42. Since I have been here for over 3 years is it a big shock my count is higher? Who gives a rats ---?

Anyway, I had some good solutions to suggest, since you choose to take the smart azz rebel route, find the solution on your own. Remember I was not the one asking for help, your were, I just wanted to make sure the seed and soil suggestions were the correct ones for your area...

[Doster's L & L]

Hey kirby, you know of a nice big pile of sand is that you can have toro to pick up, don't you? HAHAHA

[bad_chad48]

Thank you for the input. I have some more questions though. I am not familiar with any place that sells compost... the city dump sells the leaves that they have picked up from the fall and then offers it to the public again. Is that considered compost? Would that work as described? Also, my dad owns a farm in which he feeds his cattle round bales of hay through the winters. around each of these areas, the cows do their duty and is mixed with the leftover hay. Is that compost? If neither of those are the compost that you are talking about, then where can a person obtain compost worth using? And what is in it? If they are considered compost then, what do I have to do to it to make it usable? I really am wanting to learn somthing here. and I appreciate those helping.
Ric.
I do not know of anyplace like what you are describing as far as the compost you use for usage.
I would like to learn this principle in order to turn some of the properties that I maintain and my own personal soil into great soil instead of trying to solve the problem with fert and lime. I know they have their places but not in my situation.
Again thanks for the informal help.
Chad

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by ztoro
Thanks Ric.

Read read read... If you dont have anything of value to offer, dont offer anything....

Signed
The Jerk

ROTFLMAO...is that directed toward Ric? :eek: :rolleyes:

Yes, I have all the sand he needs, it will do wonders for the lawn!!

[Ric]

Chad

PM or email me your E-mail Address and I will send you all the information you need. I will be glad to help YOU.

[1MajorTom]

Like you said, the water just runs right off.

You need to aerate. Not just once, but your lawn will benefit from mulitiple aerations per year. Especially in the summer. Water heavy the night before. You need to pull the largest size plugs that you can. The water needs a place to get down into the soil.

[KirbysLawn]

Jodi, the soil also needs something to hold the water. Clay soils do not absorb water well, theres something to add I just can't remember what it is....

[1MajorTom]

this maybe?
http://www.aquatrols.com/TurfProducts/TPPrimerSelect.HTM

[Ric]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Jodi, the soil also needs something to hold the water. Clay soils do not absorb water well, theres something to add I just can't remember what it is....

Gee Ray For some reason, I seem to be at the same lost.

[Grassmechanic]

Originally posted by bad_chad48
Thank you for the input. I have some more questions though. I am not familiar with any place that sells compost... the city dump sells the leaves that they have picked up from the fall and then offers it to the public again. Is that considered compost? Would that work as described? Also, my dad owns a farm in which he feeds his cattle round bales of hay through the winters. around each of these areas, the cows do their duty and is mixed with the leftover hay. Is that compost? If neither of those are the compost that you are talking about, then where can a person obtain compost worth using? And what is in it? If they are considered compost then, what do I have to do to it to make it usable? I really am wanting to learn somthing here. and I appreciate those helping.
Yes, leaves and manure/hay can make excellent compost. You'll know if it's ready to use if you can grab a couple of handfuls and it falls apart, like fine topsoil. You shouldn't be able to recognize what it was (leaves, grass, hay, etc.)and it will have a nice, earthy smell. Home Depot, Lowe's, K-mart, etc. all sell bags of compost if you need to get some right away.

[KirbysLawn]

Jodi, not really what I had in mind. I can aeravate concrete and it still will not hold water, add clay and it still will not hold water, spray it with any chemical you want and nothing...there are certain things that naturally hold water and nutrients.

[ztoro]

Originally posted by Doster's L & L
ztoro, i think Ric was scolding you and not kirby.

Your fast, i was being sarcastic. Read it again.

[Doster's L & L]

Originally posted by ztoro
Your fast, i was being sarcastic. Read it again.

You are fast too! Your location still says "At my desk". Well no frickin' duh. I am at my desk too. Actually, just to be different, i think i will put my monitor and keypad in the floor and i will change the "Dresden, TN" to "In my floor". Ask kirby where you can get that pile of sand to solve your soil problems.:dizzy:

[ztoro]

doster how old are you? 2?

I have decided to spread concrete mix on my grass. do you recommend i use a fertilizer as well?

[Ric]

Ztoro

Portland cermet "post set" will be all you need. I am 5 years old for you Information. Good Luck. That advise is from My Desk to Your Desk.

[KirbysLawn]

Man, some people take the hard road.....:sleeping:

[Doster's L & L]

Thanks for the back up, ric. Yes, concrete then aerate. Wait a couple of weeks then fert. Yep, that'll do it. Make it 46-0-0. you'll see immediate results.
-Your lawn confidant, Doster's L & L