Attn: thelawnguy

[lawrence stone]

thelawnguy wrote on 9-12-2000

>"If you have a "good" lawn mower you can just mulch them into dust."

Tell ya what Stone, come back up here to CT sometime in mid-November, with your "good" mower set up for leaf mulching, if you can mulch all these leaves into dust I will pay your travel time and spring for eats plus pay you for what I would get to haul the leaves away, if not we take pictures of the mess with your new camera, post em up, oh yeah, you help me load the 6 yards of mulched leaves into my truck.

---------------------------------------------------------

Call me whenever you are ready. I am "accustomed" to eating in 5 star restaurants and will only accept payment in cash at the end of each day when working as a subcontractor.

[Edited by lawrence stone on 10-25-2000 at 01:47 AM]

[thelawnguy]

The maple leaves which are now falling are childs play. We will wait til mid-November when the oak leaves fall and collect into a wet mat 4 inches thick.

I for one would have no problem letting you work thru the cloud of burning Toro blade belt smoke.

[Likestomow]

I think there should be an official from LawnSite.com present to verify the results and declare the winner (or loser).

[HealthyLawns]

!!

[jaclawn]

It's hard to steal second if you don't take your foot off first.

What does this mean?

A. You cannot steal(take with you and take home) second base off you don't take your foot off of it first.

B. You cannot steal second base if you never take your foot off of first base. i.e. you can't strech that far.

[BRL]

Jaclawn,
B. But it doesn't mean you can't stretch that far. The saying means you won't get anywhere if you don't try to go for it. Better yet, you won't succeed if you don't try to.

Bill,
Now if you wait and let the leaves build up for a month, I think Stone's or any other mower will have a hard time mulching them up. The point to mulching leaves is to get to the leaf accounts once a week, or at least every other week, and if you have a decent mulching set up, you won't have to collect the leaves. But I do like your concept of challenging someone (and their ego) to come take care of your leaves. I can't offer as good a prize as you but I myself don't believe any of these Lawnsite guys could mulch any of the properties around here in another 2 weeks. Any challengers want to come show me up?

[HOMER]

I still have problems relating to the quantity of leaves in the Nrtheast. We have Oaks galore down here, every variety possible. We have Maples, dogwoods, Magnolias etc........ Nobody in this part of the country, except the City, has a machine to load leaves, we mulch and bag and do a good job at it. I agree, if we left them for a month and it rained ( ya right)they could be a problem, but we would still do our routine thing and get them up as always.

Homer

[thelawnguy]

BRL explained my sig very well.

Im curious as to how "spring for eats" turned into "dining at 5 star restaurants"? Heck we dont have any of those in this state!

[Keith]

If we'll be dining at 5 star restaurants, I will come up there and rake the leaves.

[thelawnguy]

Well, so far I have not trucked away one leaf, partly due to my wanting to mulch all I can to see what happens, and partly due to 40mph winds last weekend.

I can see how depending on accounts one could mulch everything, but quality issues tell me it wont be practical the whole fall season.

Lawrence, rather than suffer the indignation of one of your Toros traipsing my customers property, contact me and Ill send you a consolation prize for you to stay home.

[thelawnguy]

"... We will wait til mid-November when the oak leaves fall and collect into a wet mat 4 inches thick. "

Well, I did my annual "aggravation" lawn on Thursday. Usually I tarp up 2 truckloads of leaves (with 4 foot sideboards). Thursday, after blowing the oak and sycamore leaves from the beds and fence line, I mulched up as much as I could with my Turf Tracer with mulching kit. Total quantity removed: less than 1/2 a truckload. Total so far this season, 1 1/2 truckloads of leaves. Last season to date: 10+ loads. The rest have been mulched (thanks to the unusually dry season) or placed at the curb for municipal pickup. Next year I will remove not one leaf, as I now have the system down to a science.

I am now truly convinced.

Mr Stone, you have not contacted me yet, please e-mail or phone at your convenience so I may give my non-retractible concession and arrange for collection of your wager.

[grasskutter]

To all those that believe they can mulch all leaves,come up to Ma. and I'll show you a lawn you couldnt do on your best day. Every year we take out 10 truckloads of leaves each time we mow ,two times during the fall(November). Each truckload is at least ten yards of leaves after they have been through a leaf sucker, so consider how many there are on this lawn. By the way the lawn is only one acre, and the leaves are all oaks. So if you want to burn out your mowers come on up, if you are succesful I will pay all expenses!!!I have one more cleanup scheduled for after Thanksgiving so let me know.

[landscaper3]

I live even more north than you grasscutter, way up in Maine and I agree with you 125% we cant mulch them either we vac em up with our Walkers and takes about the same time as mulching. We bag em with the Walkers and dump behind the truck and vac em in dump body then charge $45.00 for each load for disposal and make more money that way with being able to dispose of leaves in 3 runs per hour at $45.00 per trip plus cleanup charges. Apperently my prices are below average for im getting more and more customers with no pricing or quility complaints. 70% - 30% ratio on residential, commercial and industrial with many being large condominiums and townhouses.

[Richard Martin]

landscaper3 wrote:

<b><i>We bag em with the Walkers and dump behind the truck and vac em in dump body then charge $45.00 for each load for disposal and make more money that way with being able to dispose of leaves in 3 runs per hour at $45.00 per trip plus cleanup charges.</b></i>

I think I am starting to see why some people ilke to mulch and some like to pickup. I'm not sure about where you are but it takes me a minimum of 1 hr. 45 mins. to dispose of leaves at the <i>local</i> landfill plus $55.00 a ton dump fee. The fine for illegal dumping...$1000.00

[Vandora Lawn & Landscape]

If any of you guys have farm or some other large acrage, maybe you could dump at your place?

[MJB]

This is my first season that I have not had to bag and haul off leaves. I started mulching once a week as the leaves fell about 1-2ft deep. If they got deep I bulldozed them out from under the trees mulching all the way. My lawns have enough open grass I could just mulch everything into dust with my 60" Lazer Z . I could of waited until they were 3 ft deep, and bag an dump, but this is so much easier.

I left my Walker and Grasshopper home with the baggers gatherin dust.

I was amazed as well as the maintenance man for these nursing homes.

NO MORE BAGGING Mulch first, baggin is my last option.

So if you have like baggin , mulch it first and see whats left to bag. But make make sure you have a real mulching mower with plenty of power and size. Not the Walker mulching deck.

[landscaper3]

Most of our jobs are 2 disposal trips per hour at $90.00 and $40.00hr per person for mowing with Walkers. Its almost twice the profit to do it this way and mulching is not a option at 80% of jobs. We also get lucky to larger property owners where we dump on site. Some people in other states can mulch but way up here its nearly impossible (not impossible but very close) plus I belive our way is more profitable. $40hr per man, $45.00 per load and $20.00 per hour truck. And only money out of pocket is dump fees, gas and labor so a typical 2hour commercial job with 2 trips to dispose would run around $210 with a profit after expenses $12hr labor. fuel $10.00 total and disposal fees around $20.00 total with a profit for 2 hours worked $150plus in 2 hours. So at 4 cleanups a day $600.00 profit in 8hours worked. I sub contract out smaller jobs alot if we are booked so as following year we can maintain a constant customer flow of business. My phone wont stop ringing anyone want sub contract jobs?

[grasskutter]

Richard, I have a dump pass at the local greenhouses(750$ for the year) I charge 50$ per truckload plus labor,which is usually about 10 minutes per truckload on average.

[MJB]

We are wrapping things up here in Wa st, because I don't like handling leaves anymore is why I chose to mulch. I still make $40 - $60 per hr mulching . If I should need to bag up the excess then I get out the Walker. I give them a set price for cleanup so if I figure the time to haul em off along with dump fees etc I charge for it. But then I found if I mulch first I save a ton of time, less to haul off, less timeto bag, more time for another job if I'm hungry.
. But not everyone has a big enclosed mulching deck that you can raise an lower with a foot pedal while you mulching. I feel fortunate because I have the Walker for bagging if needed, and the Lazer Z. They make a good combo for my jobs.

[CCLC]

We usually charge $10 per yard of leaves removed off site. In the past we have dumped at farms and at a friends. Both of which said that 350 to 400 cubic yards of leaves were a little more than they wanted each year. This spring we found a wood recycling facility that takes leaves at $2.00 per yard. They are a lot closer as well.

[landscaper3]

Check your local town or city ordinance, most towns its agianst town policy to bring someone elses yard waist and debri and dump at your residence, how I came about this information my father inlaw is a code enforcer of our local town and siad after a period of time you may get in trouble. Just check your towns ordinance to see if you may get in trouble.

[thelawnguy]

Well, I too do not believe that EVERY leaf can be mulched and left on site in all situations, but so far this season I have reduced what I haul away by 90% or more and am convinced that next season, after fine-tuning the way I do things, 100% can be mulched and left either on the turf or dispersed over the property.

I have passed up opportunities to service properties which were essentially a home smack dab in the woods, and the owner wanted all the leaves removed. Not. I have been to rural MA and ME and can understand what you guys must go through with the leaves.

See the first post, I have eaten my plate of crow, and it was a small price to pay for the knowledge I have gained.

[landscaper3]

Thank you lawnguy for understanding our situation way up north here. I to are looking for ways to go from 80% to at least 50% by next year. I belive our truckloader will chop up leaves even finer than our Walkers to ruduce bulk. Its easy to mistroo what other states and locations can do and cant do.

[thelawnguy]

Walker and truckloader will reduce bulk, but I have found the key is to reduce bulk BEFORE picking up the leaves. If you grind up the leaves while they are on the ground, when you blow them towards the collection area a large percentage of the pieces will filter through the turf and not need to be carted away. Thus, when you finally suck em up with the trucloader you should have less than half the volume to start with, then the loader will further pulverize whats left.

[lawrence stone]

Please tell me why there are so much more leaves in Northern New England vs. Penn's Woods.

Even I have learned a few new tricks this leaf grinding season. What I do is turn up the governer speed on the engine. Plus I am going to try double gator blades vs. a gator and a high lift next season. Also razor sharp blades and a clean deck underside helps.

When your have the "right" equipment, have proper technique, and take all the little things into consideration the results are just great.

The problem with you leaf removal guys is you are too staid to change your ways and/or don't have the "right" equipment.

[landscaper3]

Well I dont call Walker mowers or Billy Goat truckloaders on rack and dump bodys trucks wrong equipment. And Penn is alot different then way up here in Maine. I agree with some i have lived in Fla, Virginia and and Penn for a peroid of time and up here is a whole nother ball game in cleaups and mowing. Even mowing at least a bare minimium you must bag clipping at least 1/2 the year, hard to discharge do to very full and thick lawns. And we have tried other ways but mowing over leaves 6"-12" high will take 3 times as long for same money as to bag with Walkers and Truckvac it. Plus it has a manicured look after. We have tried several ways and up in Northern Maine this is your option!!! With 16 Lawn Maintenance companys around our location and one of them was in Lawn & Landscape top 100, Lucas Tree and Lawn service does the EXACT same thing as we do, so a multi million doller company must now the best and most profitable route and this is it! Like I siad southern, western areas go about it different do to numerous reasons but here this is the way.

[MJB]

Landscaper3,
Sounds like you have real nice setup. Just for fun see if there is an Exmark dealer in your area have him bring out a 60" Lazer Z with the mulching kit on it to demo in the leaves. See if he has one with the deck lift pedal. You won't beleive what will happen to 6"- 12" of leaves. Of course it needs to be on a fairly large lot 1/4 acre or more.
You can mow 6"- 12" of leaves down to nothing in minutes.These machines are so fast you can knock out a big section and have someone else bagging with the Walker what is left. You'll save many trips to the dump. If the lawns are just to small then of course it better to use just the Walker.

You can also put Gator blades on your Walker, I've used them on my 42" for leaves it chops em up better as long as condition are dry. Don't use when leaves are wet.

[DeepDivot]

What happens to the lawn after 10-15 years of mulching, especially on lawns with heavy leaf buildup. It seems the level would gradually rise until the lawn would eventually have to be totally redone. Any truth to this?

[dylan]

I copied this reply from another mulching thread. It should answer your question DeepDivot.
To learn more you could go here:
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=5559

This is my second year mulching leaves. I use a backpack to blow the leaves out of beds and then hit them a few times with the mower. Once customers see that you can make 5" of maple and oak leaves disappear without a trace and do it without a rake, they are amazed. I will never rake again.
On some properties with big ditches that collect a lot of blowing leaves (2-3 foot tall piles the lenght of the ditch) I used a mulching push mower and keep eating away at the pile turnig it to 2" of dust. The next spring there is not a trace of the leaves.

I have an article here from the Grounds Maintenance Magazine written by Zac Reicher and Glenn Hardebeck from Purdue University. (aug issue) They studied the effects of mulching leaves into the turf. They had different plots of grass and applied 6-8" of mulched leaves to all of them. Some plots were supplied supplemental nitrogen in varing amounts and some got none. The results were:
The grass with no nitrogen supplement did not do so well.
The grass that got any amount of nitrogen did well.
They feel that as the leaves breakdown there will be some depletion of nitrogen but it would not be a problem because most lawns are fertilized in the fall anyway.
There was no buildup of leaf mat in the soil.
There was an increase in microbial activity. This prevented build up of leaf mat.
Increased soil microbial activity indicates improved soil quality.
Increased water filtration rates.
Improved soil properties.
No effect on nutrient availability or pH in the soil.
(NOTE: If low pH leaves were mulched in to a soil with a low buffering capacity (oak into sandy) the pH will go down)
(could be corrected by lime)
A heavily shaded lawn, already thinned from shade may not be able to withstand the extra abuse of leaf mulching.
You must match the leaf disposal method to the site.


In conclusion, mulching leaves can save tremendous amounts of time and labour. It is cheaper than using expensive vacumns, disposal fees, labour and special trucks/ trailers for hauling.
It can be an effective bidding tool, because an overall maintenance program that includes fall leaf disposal could be performed for less money if you employ leaf mulching.
You could protray yourself as an "eco-friendly" operator because you are not filling up landfills.

Hope this helps someone.
Dylan

[cos]

I think it is a big waste of time (mulching leaves). I think it is faster to just blow them to the truck or blow them in the nearest woods with a push blower and then vacuum the rest up with a walk behind or ztr. I think that it looks cleaner, and you eliminate any trace of leaves (completely). Just my thoughts.

To each his or her own.

[Scraper]

Hey Stone...it's because all our leaves in PA blow east and up their way! LOL I still don't understand anyone's argument that they have more leaves in one part of the Northeast over another. It basically boils down to how many trees are near your properies. DUH!

I say look for the new construction...very few leaves to worry about. ;)

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by cos
I think it is a big waste of time (mulching leaves). I think it is faster to just blow them to the truck or blow them in the nearest woods with a push blower and then vacuum the rest up with a walk behind or ztr. I think that it looks cleaner, and you eliminate any trace of leaves (completely

My first choice is to blow the leaves into the woods. My second is to tarp them to the curb for municipal pickup. Mulching is third. I would not mulch at all if I already had a truck loader and collection system, be it walker trac vac et al. But if I shelled out 2g for a decent truck loader now I need to get a way to dump the stuff out of my pickup otherwise the time I save will be spent in the back of the truck with a pitchfork and shovel. For a solo operator without a self-dumping mechanism for my truck mulching is an ideal compromise. If I had a dump truck and an employee or two I would use a collection system and truck loader but with one person there would be no time savings.

Scraper you should take a visit up north some day and get an eye opener. I have been to your part of PA no comparison as far as tree population per square yard ;)

[Scraper]

Hey Bill...grew up outside Binghamton, NY and went to school in Lake Placid...I know all about trees...and yes...there are plenty of trees here too. Like I said...it all has to do with amount of trees on a property.

[DeepDivot]

Originally posted by dylan

There was no buildup of leaf mat in the soil.
There was an increase in microbial activity. This prevented build up of leaf mat.

Hope this helps someone.
Dylan

[/B]

Thanks, Dylan. I'm a little surprised only because it seems in the older homes around town, the lawns are always several inches higher than the culverts, whereas on newer homes that's not the case. But..., there could be other reasons. I hadn't considered the increase in microbial activity.

[thelawnguy]

"I'm a little surprised only because it seems in the older homes around town, the lawns are always several inches higher than the culverts, whereas on newer homes that's not the case."

Its that way here in the rust belt, but its because every winter the town spreads an inch of sand on the lawns as well as the roads. It adds up.

[MJB]

Not to mention the thatch buildup from over fertilized lawns, for yrs an yrs.. Then the sprinklers start to dissapeartoo.
I have problems out here in Wa St with people who use 16-16-16 4 times per year, bag all the clippins, then wonder why they have problems like 2 -4 inches of thatch buildup.

I started aerating, an mulching a 60,000 sq ft job with a thatch buildup from to much of the wrong fertilizer and over watering. I Applied the right fertilizer and have seen a huge improvement in the lawn. Bad news though for those who like to fertilize, since I started mulching these lawns
4 yrs ago,I now only need to fertilize heavy in Fall and Late spring early summer, and I'm still cutting 2 to 4 inches of gras yr around.

[jaclawn]

I don't think that mulching is the answer to each and every property, but it can be a great comprimise.

I did a little last year, and this year did mostly mulching. I mulched throughout the leaf season, sometimes making double passes over a lawn to get a good grind. On the last visit, I made a pass with the mulcher, and a second pass with the bagger. It left a nice, clean look on the lawn.

I can't see getting carried away trying to blow/tarp/load leaves during the season, while they are still falling. It just seems counter productive to try and get every last leaf up.

The system that I used has created more money for me. Since I made regular visits to each site, I was there more times than if I were to just clean leaves. I wasn't really cutting much grass, mostly grinding leaves.

I charged extra for the final clean up, with bagging. The quntity that I hauled away was considerabley less than that of previous years.

Another plus of this method- I would much rather stand behind a mower riding around than dealing with blowers/rakes/tarps. Mucl lower physcial excursion.