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View Full Version : Illegal Labor, 1099's & IRS


DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 04:08 PM
I saw the NBC Nightly News last night. Bush is pushing for a new green card. From what I understand, this green card would be easily available to all illegal immigrants. It would be valid for three years. I've looked into it a little bit this winter, and as it is now, I think it's basically impossible to get a green card right now. (I may be way off here, but I certainly wouldn't be able to figure out how to get one if I needed one.)

One thing I noticed on the telecast was that they kept showing illegal mexican laborers doing landscape work.

Just about every LCO crew member here in the DFW area is hispanic. I would guess that most are illegals. I see a lot of LCO's driving around the labor camps in the mornings and evenings. I've used illegal help from the labor camps myself. But I haven't had the need to get help on a full time basis...yet. That should change this summer, though.

As for hiring born and bred american citizens, I really have no interest in that at all (and I know I'm not alone in this thought).

So my question is this: The illegal help I've used can barely speak english. They don't have picture ID's, so they can't cash a check. And I've asked one of my more regular helpers, through a translater, if he had any kind of SS#. He doesn't. (If they're illegal, isn't their lack of a SS# the very thing that makes them illegal?)

So how do you go about hiring illegal laborers on a long term basis? If you pay any single helper more than $600 per year, you can't deduct the expense without a 1099, which would require a social security number.

I've considered just telling my regular helper that I have no way of knowing if a SS# is real or not. Nor do I really care. My accountant tells me that I just need those nine digits on the form. Won't matter that much if it's not real. My defense is that I have no way of knowing if it's real or not.

FWIW, I believe my help should be paid via W2, but my accountant has lead me to believe that I can pay via 1099 for several years before I need to move to W2. I also know several landscapers who have paid employees via 1099 for years on end and have never had a problem with the IRS or the state unemployment office.

My gut feeling is that the IRS and state unemployment people know without a doubt that small business contractors, like LCO's, are using illegal help. But they also know that if they start cracking down on the 1099 labor, on a wide scale level, that just about every bit of construction, roofing, landscaping, etc. would probably come to a screaching halt. I think our economy relies on the illegal laborer. No one wants to talk much about it because if we do talk about it, we soon realize that americans are just absolutely spoiled rotten and too proud (and fat) to actually do physical work. Generally speaking. Again, if the government were really concerned about ridding our country of illegal labor, wouldn't it be pretty simple to start sending a patty wagon by the labor camps every morning? Hell, on the news last night, a city in California actually had a shade tent set up for the laborers at the labor camp.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

Fantasy Lawns
01-08-2004, 04:32 PM
So how do you go about hiring illegal laborers on a long term basis?

Not to be rude ..... but this is like asking how to shoot one's self in the head

Are you reading what your asking ... the term "illegal" should be enough to answer

My advice is to only hire those whom can complete a legal I-9

N I'd lose that CPA as soon as possible

WESLEY BROWN
01-08-2004, 05:00 PM
The cool thing is that they have to be hired which elimenates the fact that they can run there own LCO.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 05:01 PM
++++The cool thing is that they have to be hired which elimenates the fact that they can run there own LCO.++++

Huh? Not sure I follow?

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper

LawnPerfect
01-08-2004, 05:05 PM
Just find a good AMERICAN to work for you. Problem solved.

44toy
01-08-2004, 05:17 PM
You guys should have fun picking this one apart. I cant wait for the answer.

WESLEY BROWN
01-08-2004, 05:27 PM
Bush said if they get the green card then they have to be hired by somone and can only have that job three years and then they get deported.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 05:38 PM
++++Just find a good AMERICAN to work for you. Problem solved++++

If they're willing to tolerate the heat and do the work I require for the money I can pay, that ought to be a red flag in and of itself. I mean seriously, if you were born in this country and are now an adult and you are willing to work for $8 to $9 per hour in 100 degree heat day after day after day doing 'grunt' work, there's a good chance you've made some poor decisions in life.

If a domestic helper does turn out to be a good employee, they'll probably turn out to be serious competition before too long. As for illegals becoming my competition, from what I've seen, my customers want to do business with people with whom they can effectively communicate. I've talked to some of the other hispanic LCO operators in my area and honestly, they are competing with an arm tied behind their back. Their accents are so heavy, I can barely understand them.

Another feel I have for the illegals, right or wrong, is that they aren't a very letigious people. I've heard this from others, and it may be true.

I'm not the only LCO who feels this way about domestic employees:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=57756&highlight=illegal

Plenty of LCO's on this thread use 'suspected' illegal labor and have no regrets.

I just want to know how to pay them and stay out of trouble with the government. I'm beginning to suspect the answer is, just don't ask any questions about their SS#. But that doesn't solve the problem of them cashing their paycheck.

My hunch is that the government simply doesn't care. I can't prove it. But that's what I think. In fact, I think the reason Bush is pushing for easy to obtain green cards for everyone is because they want to start making contractors, like us, with hold federal income taxes on all illegal labor. As it is now, the government isn't getting their cut on all the bogus 1099 labor in the country, which may well be in the BILLIONS of dollars.

As for the government coming after contractors who pay via 1099 on invalid SS#'s, I haven't heard any horror stories at all. If anyone has any horror stories, please post. I honestly don't think the government wants the cheap, illegal labor to go away.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

Gene $immons
01-08-2004, 05:45 PM
This new law will be great for our industry , if congress will pass it.

I will be watching this closely.

rman
01-08-2004, 05:48 PM
im sorry but ill never hire illegal help , i cant stand them michael

DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 05:55 PM
++++Bush said if they get the green card then they have to be hired by somone and can only have that job three years and then they get deported.++++

I see what you're saying. So basically, they'll be in a catch 22. Gotta have job in order to get the ss#, but can't get a job without a ss#. Maybe there will be a 90 grace period between the time they get their ss# and the time they're required to have a job.

I'm with Gene on this one (even though he's an OU fan:dizzy: ). I think this legislation would be good for the green industry. It would allow a lot of LCO contractors to with-hold the income taxes and not worry about a call from the IRS down the road.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

AL Inc
01-08-2004, 06:08 PM
Don't assume that because they are Hispanic, that they are illegal. All of the men that work for me are from El Salvador and have the necessary paperwork, all have driver's licenses, and 2 even own their own homes.

They are out there, it is just a matter of creating a company that good people want to work for.

Lawndoctor, I got a good laugh from your response, thank you. Problem solved, I wish things were that easy. And I am speaking as someone who has spent most of my life in this business.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 06:47 PM
OK. We all follow the rules. No one is using illegal labor.

That's why mexican's are coming to the US by the hundreds of thousands. Because no one is giving them work.

That's why Bush is pushing for green cards for all illegals. Because it's not a problem...every LCO is following the rules.

And that's why NBC just happened to show several exemplary scenes of hispanics pushing mowers when they did they're piece on illegal labor last night.

I just want to know how to use illegal labor and stay out of trouble with the government. At least until Bush gets his green cards through the Congress.

That's all.

I love the guy I've been using. He worked one day for 12 hours with me in 100 degree heat and he was running a high fever the whole time. This guy is fantastic. He has no fake credentials. I just don't want to stop using him simply because he's too honest to tell me he has a ss# when he doesn't. This guys plenty good enough for me. Any advice?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

olderthandirt
01-08-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by AL Inc
Don't assume that because they are Hispanic, that they are illegal. All of the men that work for me are from El Salvador and have the necessary paperwork, all have driver's licenses, and 2 even own their own homes.

They are out there, it is just a matter of creating a company that good people want to work for.

Lawndoctor, I got a good laugh from your response, thank you. Problem solved, I wish things were that easy. And I am speaking as someone who has spent most of my life in this business.

Why would you get a good laugh from a response that says hire american. It is that easy! And I am also speaking as someone who has spent most of my entire life in this business.

"They are out there, it is just a matter of creating a company that good people want to work for." That sums it up pretty good.

Mac

Fantasy Lawns
01-08-2004, 07:11 PM
I'd say just keep doing what your doing

It's not the "illegal" alien thing that will get you in trouble .... it's the failure to pay the employment tax thing that is trouble .... it's the non insurance thing that will be trouble .... no carrier will cover damage produced by a non employee or injuries to the non employee

The I-9 thingy can be a $5k fine per employee .... it get's kinda warm over here also ....n ya going thru em is beat .... but that's part of running a business

Again if your happy n it works why would you worry ?? Yes illegals are in this field ... but that is due to owners whom have no mind to the law n they should pay the price first thru fines then thru time for failure to comply

MDMowing
01-08-2004, 07:38 PM
I won't pass judgment, and my opinion doesn't't matter, so I will only say this. . . .

Pay him CASH under the table. I know you can't deduct that from taxes, but I don't think I would want some one illegally working for me and have the IRS find out.

nelbuts
01-08-2004, 08:08 PM
Well just be cause everyone else is hiring illegals does that make it right? NO! Does that mean you should? NO! Do you realize that you have now said that you are going to do illegal act? So according to federal law if you knowingly hire an illegal you can be fined $5,000 for each one you have hired? Now those are some things you should think of before you hire. In fact I think that you could use the fact you hire only legal, English speaking workers as a marketing tool. Like, "English Only Spoken Here" or "XYZ Lawn Care is an English only Company".

Now for my personal opinion. For you and everyone else who hires illegals, you all a POS!:blob2: :blob2: :angry: :realmad:

BravesFan
01-08-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by olderthandirt
Why would you get a good laugh from a response that says hire american. It is that easy! And I am also speaking as someone who has spent most of my entire life in this business.

"They are out there, it is just a matter of creating a company that good people want to work for." That sums it up pretty good.

Mac

Exactly...I charge more..I pay more...I expect more.

Dennis

Avery
01-08-2004, 08:19 PM
Get in the H2B program. Then they will be legal. 99% of my work force is of foreign decent. And they are legal.

Steve9
01-08-2004, 08:24 PM
Im a Bush supporter but this bill threw me for a loop on the surface. I think we are overlooking whats really going to happen. If I understand it correctly, he is baiting the illegals. If what someone said here is true they can only stay three years then their deported? The jokes on them because when they sign up they are giving them all the info they need to round em up and ship em out. Picture ID, some type of ID # i would guess, address, employer. So its a three year plan? When you tell an illegal he now has to pay 25% of his income to the IRS every week when he signs up, how many will sign up? They get away with being illegal for years and years so why sign up?
Bush also said we must seal the border. No Sh@t. However the democrats will freak out and use that against the republicans. So he is granting some reprieve to those that are here, covering his butt, yet still sealing the border. Anybody who thinks the border shouldn't be sealed is an idiot. Why is health care so much? Visit the hospitals in Tex, NM, Ar, Cali and look who has the place FILLED for one big reason. People who CAN pay are paying for that free health care. Nothing is free. My sister is a RN in the maternity ward. Mexican girls in there, illegal 19 years old on their 3rd child. OUT OF CONTROL WE need to help the needy but we are being taken advantage of.
I'm so sick of the defense that they do jobs nobody wants. BS, take a class in economics. Supply and demand! Do you think nobody would farm or pick up trash or cut lawns if they weren't here? Of course somebody would they would just charge more and pass it down the line. like any other job or business in the world. Its a vicious circle, nobody wants the job because it doesn't pay enough, unless your illegal, but its not paying enough because illegals are doing it for next to nothing.
While I'm on it. Thousands of people are let into this country every day. LEGALLY! People act like the USA wants a wall around it or something. They are to stupid to realize we let LEGAL immigrants in here everyday. Like most of our ancestors unless your an Indian!
So if this is all a smokescreen about sealing the border. I'm for it! God Bless George W Bush! No drugs, no illegals, put the military on the border.
Now, about this Weed-eater i have..... : )

LawnPerfect
01-08-2004, 08:29 PM
I can understand and (almost) respect everyones opinion on this.

Yes you might have to pay more for legal help but dont you think that its worth it when you consider that you hired him legally, you withhold taxes, he pays his taxes which in turn goes back into your pocket somehow? Yes I know the arguement that illegals pay taxes too in the form of retail sales tax. But thats nothing.

LawnPerfect
01-08-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Steve9
Im a Bush supporter but this bill threw me for a loop on the surface. I think we are overlooking whats really going to happen. If I understand it correctly, he is baiting the illegals. If what someone said here is true they can only stay three years then their deported? The jokes on them because when they sign up they are giving them all the info they need to round em up and ship em out. Picture ID, some type of ID # i would guess, address, employer. So its a three year plan? When you tell an illegal he now has to pay 25% of his income to the IRS every week when he signs up, how many will sign up? They get away with being illegal for years and years so why sign up?
Bush also said we must seal the border. No Sh@t. However the democrats will freak out and use that against the republicans. So he is granting some reprieve to those that are here, covering his butt, yet still sealing the border. Anybody who thinks the border shouldn't be sealed is an idiot. Why is health care so much? Visit the hospitals in Tex, NM, Ar, Cali and look who has the place FILLED for one big reason. People who CAN pay are paying for that free health care. Nothing is free. My sister is a RN in the maternity ward. Mexican girls in there, illegal 19 years old on their 3rd child. OUT OF CONTROL WE need to help the needy but we are being taken advantage of.
I'm so sick of the defense that they do jobs nobody wants. BS, take a class in economics. Supply and demand! Do you think nobody would farm or pick up trash or cut lawns if they weren't here? Of course somebody would they would just charge more and pass it down the line. like any other job or business in the world. Its a vicious circle, nobody wants the job because it doesn't pay enough, unless your illegal, but its not paying enough because illegals are doing it for next to nothing.
While I'm on it. Thousands of people are let into this country every day. LEGALLY! People act like the USA wants a wall around it or something. They are to stupid to realize we let LEGAL immigrants in here everyday. Like most of our ancestors unless your an Indian!
So if this is all a smokescreen about sealing the border. I'm for it! God Bless George W Bush! No drugs, no illegals, put the military on the border.
Now, about this Weed-eater i have..... : )


So if this is all a smokescreen about sealing the border. I'm for it! God Bless George W Bush! No drugs, no illegals, put the military on the border.

Here, Here!
GOD BLESS AMERICA

pcnservices
01-08-2004, 09:22 PM
Guys, please do not jump to conclutions here.

President Bush proposed a temporary guest worker program as a fix. While such a fix is necessary, it is not sufficient. The missing component in President Bush's plan
is legalization. However, it is not the President who makes law,
that responsibility lies solely with Congress. Given the current
realities on Capitol Hill, it is unlikely that the President's
plan can become legislation without bipartisan support. During
the course of the give-and-take that characterizes our
legislative process, a strong legalization component will be necessary to eventually convert President Bush's immigration reform vision into law.

Bush said very clearly that his administration opposes blanket amnesty. Therefore you guys that think illegals is now all of a sudden going to fall in a line at the INS's office and get a Green Card is wrong. He (Bush) proposed that undocumented workers gets a temparory workers authorization for 3 years and only thereafter they can apply for and start with a filing process to permanent residency which is another 3-4 year process.

Some of the Repulicans and Democrats alike proposes that undocumented and or illegal workers can qualify for a permanent residency on the basis of earned legalization. Many of them pay SS (with false SS#'s) and taxes but they cannot benefit a penny from it. Some of the politicians say that if such a worker can proof they paid all these dues and have no criminal record after a certian number of years they might qualify. Now this is all just politics - remember election day is only 11 months away!

The key of Bush's immigration reform plan is to match a WILLING worker with a willing employer. So I think if you have an illegal worker that applied for a job with your company and you have proofed that you cannot find a suitable American citizen (they get preference) to do the job then you as an employer can sponsor such a worker for a workers visa and eventually sponsor this foreign worker to a permanent residency.

TIMO :- They are here whether we like it or not. They (millions of them) are making a substancial contribution to the economy. Most of the money they earn here gets send back to their families and billions of $$ ($10 billion in 2003) go out of the country every year. We can just as well legalize them, have them stay and work here legally, pay taxes and stuff and keep the money in the country instead. If we increase their minimum wage (some of them work for $900 a month - it's a shame) there can be an even bigger contribution from the legal foreign worker.

PC

GrassBustersLawn
01-08-2004, 09:37 PM
AL inc - Just be cause they have a drivers license does that make them LEGAL. It doesn't in INDIANA. They are bending over backwards to give them (ILLEGALS) licenses here. The BMV (butthead mota vehicules) tried to clamp down after 9-11 but they got a lot of protests, so they IMMEDIATELY CAVED. IMHO they broke the law to get here, why should we give them a pat on the back for that?????

Mike

olderthandirt
01-08-2004, 09:39 PM
"TIMO :- They are here whether we like it or not. They (millions of them) are making a substancial contribution to the economy. Most of the money they earn here gets send back to their families and billions of $$ ($10 billion in 2003) go out of the country every year. We can just as well legalize them, have them stay and work here legally, pay taxes and stuff and keep the money in the country instead. If we increase their minimum wage (some of them work for $900 a month - it's a shame) there can be an even bigger contribution from the legal foreign worker."


Sounds about like the same argument as illegal drugs, there here so we might as well legalize them. That BS, shoot the sob when they illegally cross the border then the money stays in the US and our borders are safer. It may not be politically correct but it sure would solve a lot of problems.


Mac

Steve9
01-08-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by pcnservices
Guys, please do not jump to conclutions here.

TIMO :- They are here whether we like it or not. They (millions of them) are making a substancial contribution to the economy. Most of the money they earn here gets send back to their families and billions of $$ ($10 billion in 2003) go out of the country every year. We can just as well legalize them, have them stay and work here legally, pay taxes and stuff and keep the money in the country instead. If we increase their minimum wage (some of them work for $900 a month - it's a shame) there can be an even bigger contribution from the legal foreign worker.

PC

..and if they werent here that stuff just wouldnt get done I guess? How are they contributing to the economy more than an American citizen would? They dont.
Yeah most of thier money goes out of the country...wonderful. Not spent in the U.S. where its taxed to help pay for the friggin roads, schools and health care. Its spent in Mexico... Exactly how much do people pay in income tax that make minimum wage??? THEY DONT PAY TAXES @ MiNIMUM WAGE(minimal)! So we should raise minimum wage again you say? Well heck i guess then its a job a US citizen would want because now its a job that pays more.
I say legaliz ethe ones here becasue it would cost 10X to catch them and send them back. Then Seal the border like friggin Tupperware and charge $400 for money orders to Mexico!

the scaper
01-08-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by nelbuts
Well just be cause everyone else is hiring illegals does that make it right? NO! Does that mean you should? NO! Do you realize that you have now said that you are going to do illegal act? So according to federal law if you knowingly hire an illegal you can be fined $5,000 for each one you have hired? Now those are some things you should think of before you hire. In fact I think that you could use the fact you hire only legal, English speaking workers as a marketing tool. Like, "English Only Spoken Here" or "XYZ Lawn Care is an English only Company".

Now for my personal opinion. For you and everyone else who hires illegals, you all a POS!:blob2: :blob2: :angry: :realmad: nelbuts, you are a great american! where i come from we call them crimminals. isnt it amazing how when it comes to making money some people will dismiss the law and the best interest of our country for their own self serving interest. shame, shame, shame.

AL Inc
01-08-2004, 10:21 PM
Grassbusters- I don't live in Indiana. And I'm a landscaper, not an INS agent. My men have to provide a legitimate looking i.d. and fill out the I-9 form, and a W-4. I also forward their driver's license # to my insurance company.

To the best of my knowledge, everyone is legal. Not much more I can do.

proenterprises
01-08-2004, 10:28 PM
here is my take on the situation.

i dont see any problem with illegal help. some people say that it is destroying our economy-yes maybe it is a little-but for the most part its not.
if you can find a good helper who shows up every morning on time, does the work he is supposed to do (correctly without having to be told 3 times) -cleans up at night and is back again the next morning-i couldnt give a shyt if he was from venus!

the hispanic (NOT MEXICAN:angry: ) labor force is very strong, and if we didnt have it in this industry, i have a feeling that we would be all in some hot water.

the scaper
01-08-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Steve9
..and if they werent here that stuff just wouldnt get done I guess? How are they contributing to the economy more than an American citizen would? They dont.
Yeah most of thier money goes out of the country...wonderful. Not spent in the U.S. where its taxed to help pay for the friggin roads, schools and health care. Its spent in Mexico... Exactly how much do people pay in income tax that make minimum wage??? THEY DONT PAY TAXES @ MiNIMUM WAGE(minimal)! So we should raise minimum wage again you say? Well heck i guess then its a job a US citizen would want because now its a job that pays more.
I say legaliz ethe ones here becasue it would cost 10X to catch them and send them back. Then Seal the border like friggin Tupperware and charge $400 for money orders to Mexico! steve9, you are a great american. isnt it amazing how us fat , lazy american citizens built the best , most powerfull country in the world without the help of illegal mexicans.

proenterprises
01-08-2004, 10:31 PM
nelbuts-
i hardly think that i am a piece of shyt just because i hire illegal workers. the fact is-most of them work 10X better than any american that i could pick up to come work with me.

you need to relax. :rolleyes:

Steve9
01-08-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by proenterprises
here is my take on the situation.


the hispanic (NOT MEXICAN:angry: ) labor force is very strong, and if we didnt have it in this industry, i have a feeling that we would be all in some hot water.

Actually it is MEXICAN, if they are from Mexico.:angry: Hispanic can be from a lot of places

proenterprises
01-08-2004, 10:42 PM
yes, however, every tom, **** and harry in this country goes around calling everyone they see with dark skin a mexican. it is steretypical rude and degrading:angry: so dont do it.

the scaper
01-08-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by proenterprises
nelbuts-
i hardly think that i am a piece of shyt just because i hire illegal workers. the fact is-most of them work 10X better than any american that i could pick up to come work with me.

you need to relax. :rolleyes: no, your just a lawbreaker.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 10:59 PM
Avery,

++++Get in the H2B program. Then they will be legal. 99% of my work force is of foreign decent. And they are legal.++++

I've seen that name before, H2B, but I have no clue what it is. Can you explain what it is? What branch of the government oversees this program?

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper

pcnservices
01-08-2004, 11:02 PM
Mac (olderthandirt)
We're not talking illegal drugs here we're talking about illegal workers in the country - documented workers that came here legally and for some unforeseen reason lost their status and are now illegal, or undocumented workers that crossed the border illegally. And please note: I said WORKERS not drug smugglers. To go to the borders and shoot the quote - sobs - unquote will not solve the problem. If you listened carefully to Pres Bush's immigration reform plan you would have understood that this plan is exactly to solve some of the problems they have at the borders with Mexicans crossing it illegally. Homeland Security and this new USVISIT program from Ridge is all actions they have in place to stop this. Your shooting sobs will land you in jail my friend.

Steve9,
You consider $900 a month a minimum wage??? I think it is a shame to pay a human being that wage to do your dirty work for you! Yes, you got me right on that $10 billions dollars spent in Mexico on roads and schools. That's my argument - it could've been spent here! Maybe I expressed myself wrong - just pay them the minimum wage and we'll be better off. $900 a month is definitly not a minimum wage.
PC

the scaper
01-08-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by proenterprises
yes, however, every tom, **** and harry in this country goes around calling everyone they see with dark skin a mexican. it is steretypical rude and degrading:angry: so dont do it. nobody said anything about skin color (except you).

LawnPerfect
01-08-2004, 11:06 PM
Or better yet, HIRE AMERICANS !!!!!!!!!!!

Real, honest to goodness, John Q. Public, stand up and salute the flag, ENGLISH speaking AMERICAN.

proenterprises
01-08-2004, 11:20 PM
well...maybe im a "lawbreaker" but when your still standing around waiting for your "helper" to show up or dealing with others showing up drunk-ill be out cuttin and making $$$ while your still waiting......

Avery
01-08-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
Avery,

++++Get in the H2B program. Then they will be legal. 99% of my work force is of foreign decent. And they are legal.++++

I've seen that name before, H2B, but I have no clue what it is. Can you explain what it is? What branch of the government oversees this program?

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper

Well we are a corp. One of the officers set it up last year. You pay a fee ($3500 I think) get on a list and the gov. provides you with as many workers as you need. You are required to provide housing for them for which you can charge rent. Works great for us. You know everyone is legal because they are provided by the gov. We have had no problems with the program yet. As for what branch oversees it or who to contact I do not know, but I can check and let you know if you are intersted.

Steve9
01-08-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by pcnservices
Mac (olderthandirt)

Steve9,
You consider $900 a month a minimum wage??? I think it is a shame to pay a human being that wage to do your dirty work for you! Yes, you got me right on that $10 billions dollars spent in Mexico on roads and schools. That's my argument - it could've been spent here! Maybe I expressed myself wrong - just pay them the minimum wage and we'll be better off. $900 a month is definitly not a minimum wage.
PC

$900 is good pay for an illegal alien..$900 more than he should be making

I see your point on a few things you said. However now we just ddont need to let him/her stay but we need to send for thier whole family so we can insure or money stays here? How about keep them out from the start. problem solved..period. Punish the heck out of employers who hire them too. i mean BIG TIME (ex. WalMart)
If your saying guarantee minimum wage for the ones that are here, document them(legalize them), have them pay taxes BUT we seal the border to prevent more then we agree.
I almost dont care as long as we start fresh and seal our borders. Let's do it right.:gunsfirin

DFW Area Landscaper
01-08-2004, 11:40 PM
++++Well we are a corp. One of the officers set it up last year. You pay a fee ($3500 I think) get on a list and the gov. provides you with as many workers as you need. You are required to provide housing for them for which you can charge rent.++++

So, in order to use H2B, you've got pay a $3,500 fee and provide housing for an employee? Sounds weird. I'm in the landscape business, not the landlord business.

I'll have to do some research on this, but it doesn't sound like the right solution for me.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

the scaper
01-08-2004, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by proenterprises
well...maybe im a "lawbreaker" but when your still standing around waiting for your "helper" to show up or dealing with others showing up drunk-ill be out cuttin and making $$$ while your still waiting...... young man, while you're out knowingly breaking the law, i'll be out making a honest living. we'll see who prospers in the end. take note of my signature line.

Avery
01-08-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
++++Well we are a corp. One of the officers set it up last year. You pay a fee ($3500 I think) get on a list and the gov. provides you with as many workers as you need. You are required to provide housing for them for which you can charge rent.++++

So, in order to use H2B, you've got pay a $3,500 fee and provide housing for an employee? Sounds weird. I'm in the landscape business, not the landlord business.

I'll have to do some research on this, but it doesn't sound like the right solution for me.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

Do some checking. It is not a bad deal at all. Just find you a few cheap houses for sale/rent and put the workers in them. Charge them to cover your costs. We bought 10 acres of land with two houses on it. Income from the houses pays for the note on the land and the houses. Win/win situation for us.

Fvstringpicker
01-09-2004, 12:02 AM
I didn't read all the post so if this point is already made please excuse me. If your accountant lead you to believe you can somehow meet the requirements of the law by submitting 1099's, he's full of crap. Notwithstanding the "illegals" issue, 1099 are for non-employees (independent contractors). If you don't withold taxes (FICA, fed tax etc.), your already subject to stiff penalties. As an ex tax auditor, rest assured that those who are inappropriately filing 1099's instead of w-2's just haven't been caught. When/If they are, they'll pay penalties plus all the tax that should have been withheld.

olderthandirt
01-09-2004, 12:21 AM
If your an illegal you don't deserve $1 let alone $900 month YOU are ILLEGAL. Everyone says they can't get american workers to do the work. Thats BS everyone posting on this site has done the work and 99% are still doing it. You want cheap labor ? Our prisons are filled with it its called the chain gang but you got a bunch of bleeding heart liberals that might think that its wrong to make some convict work for his food Why should I pay almost 40% of every dollar I make in taxes to support other people and that goes for all the tax dollars wasted to keep illegals out shoot the first 100 coming across and there won't be another 100 to worry about word spreads fast amigo

Mac

DFW Area Landscaper
01-09-2004, 12:22 AM
++++1099 are for non-employees (independent contractors). If you don't withold taxes (FICA, fed tax etc.), your already subject to stiff penalties++++

I know several people who have been in business for themselves as welders, landscapers, etc. who have paid all their wages via 1099, never with-held a dime and have never been bothered by any branch of government. Some have been doing this for 10+ years.

1099 vs W2 is a pretty grey area, I think. My wife works for Verizon. I assume Verizon is following the letter of the law. Anyway, my wife has contractors who work for her. They are told when to show up, when to leave, when to go potty and when to eat lunch. They take their orders from my wife, not the temp agency they work for. They're paid by the hour. They're using Verizon's equipment, and working on Verizon's premises. And I saw the exact same thing, not a bit of difference, in my first job out of college with IBM. That's two fortune 100 companies who are not with-holding federal income taxes on their "employees".

Can you tell me how these people can be classified as contractors? It almost sounds like they are employees, but Verizon/IBM is/was paying them as contactors. The burden of taxation has been shifted in both instances from the employer to the employee.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

BigEd
01-09-2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by proenterprises
nelbuts-
i hardly think that i am a piece of shyt just because i hire illegal workers. the fact is-most of them work 10X better than any american that i could pick up to come work with me.

you need to relax. :rolleyes:


Why argue with a 16 year old kid about anything being illegal or not?

16 year olds cant own a company,16 year olds cant sign contracts,16 year olds cant hire work,16 year olds cant run equipment for a business.

Since you cant own your own company,any workers you hire are illegal?Right?

Not trying to flame or fight ,just stating facts.Im not knocking anyone for wanting to work,or the young people mowing there family or neighbors lawns.But you cant argue with someone who legally owns a business about illegal or legal.:nono:

Kingbman1
01-09-2004, 12:34 AM
ILLEGAL, the word speaks for itself.

the scaper
01-09-2004, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by BigEd
Why argue with a 16 year old kid about anything being illegal or not?

16 year olds cant own a company,16 year olds cant sign contracts,16 year olds cant hire work,16 year olds cant run equipment for a business.

Since you cant own your own company,any workers you hire are illegal?Right?

Not trying to flame or fight ,just stating facts.Im not knocking anyone for wanting to work,or the young people mowing there family or neighbors lawns.But you cant argue with someone who legally owns a business about illegal or legal.:nono: very true biged, but the young guys are the future and there's probabably no better time to try to teach them good values than when they are asking questions or trying to butt heads with us.

DJL
01-09-2004, 12:57 AM
pay peanuts, get monkey's. Seems to apply.:p

olderthandirt
01-09-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by the scaper
very true biged, but the young guys are the future and there's probabably no better time to try to teach them good values than when they are asking questions or trying to butt heads with us.

dam I must be getting really old, I don't but heads with 16 yr olds I tell them the way the world works and I'm finished. Its not up for discussion. What ever there thinking been there done it:nono: If they think they know more they won't listen and the ones that want to learn won't argue.

Mac

Kelly's Landscaping
01-09-2004, 01:26 AM
I donít see the draw of Hispanic labor unless your one real cheap skate the few IV ever worked with were all less then average for ability. And several did not make it 2 days before crying that "me and my white workers" worked to hard and they quit.

I wont hire them there are plenty of American workers out there if you werenít offering 1990s pay rate you would not have as much trouble as you think.

As for my beloved president bush heís crafty. Liberals are amazingly stupid at times and this is one of them Hispanic voters now vote over whelmingly republican if there gona be foolish enough to allow them to perhaps move her and take there citizens test they will not like the out come. NBC is a left wing network that loves to insult hard working Americans by saying I do work real Americans wont do. Say that to my face. I can remember cleaning litter up at a Exxon we take care with my crew on a clean up and some rich kids thought it was so low to do that kind of work and decided to make a few cracks they didnít seem to think it was so funny when I informed them I was making 135 dollars an hour after paying my boys. Guess the allowance wasnít as good as they thought. I think a lot of this argument has to do what you pay your guys the min I pay and this is for no experience typically a 18 year old kid is 9 and hour that can go up to 14 rather easily and as I add foremen I will be paying 16-20 per hour its what they make you that matters if they are productive pay them if there not then donít but donít come to me and tell me you have to have illegal's because it sounds like your very inefficient and cant bid a job to save your life or you would be able to afford Americans.

Kingbman1
01-09-2004, 02:00 AM
In another thread, 90% of the writers said they would never drive a foriegn vehicle, yet they will hire illegal immigrants. Be a true american. Buy american, hire american!

44toy
01-09-2004, 02:09 AM
Throw in one like a bumb arse, Another lco who suddenly owned a very large " for our area" company" hirred seveal hispanic ( no english speaking) employees and a few who liked to smoke pot (that he over looked). when customers could not talk to them or reach him to translate on the phone they started looking for other people.
One of my customers of 5 years would not even let him bid on there yard.
business is less than half now, that I know of.

BigEd
01-09-2004, 02:20 AM
There is alot of hispanic scapers around here,legal or not I dont know. I would not hire illegal help,knowingly if he gave me fake SS# and I honestly didnt know thats different.But I am not that big of an operation so I dont have to worry about that.

If I had a crew that could not speak english, I would make it mandatory to have a english speaking foreman.

Alot of people smoke pot not just hispanics.Now at work thats different.

Phishook
01-09-2004, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
OK. We all follow the rules. No one is using illegal labor.

DFW Area Landscaper

My labor uses illegal things, does that count?

Phishook
01-09-2004, 03:04 AM
Anyway, wouldn't this fall under "Rule" #4?

the scaper
01-09-2004, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by olderthandirt
dam I must be getting really old, I don't but heads with 16 yr olds I tell them the way the world works and I'm finished. Its not up for discussion. What ever there thinking been there done it:nono: If they think they know more they won't listen and the ones that want to learn won't argue.

Mac well, i didnt have time to explain how the whole world works but i was just trying to give him one little aspect of it, and i WAS finished until you popped up. geez dirt, you old guys think you know everything! :D

Steve9
01-09-2004, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
I think a lot of this argument has to do what you pay your guys the min I pay and this is for no experience typically a 18 year old kid is 9 and hour that can go up to 14 rather easily and as I add foremen I will be paying 16-20 per hour its what they make you that matters if they are productive pay them if there not then donít but donít come to me and tell me you have to have illegal's because it sounds like your very inefficient and cant bid a job to save your life or you would be able to afford Americans.


Longest run on sentence ever posted award goes to......:laugh:

BigEd
01-09-2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Steve9
Longest run on sentence ever posted award goes to......:laugh:

I am Me
01-09-2004, 10:07 AM
[i]
1099 vs W2 is a pretty grey area, I think. My wife works for Verizon. I assume Verizon is following the letter of the law. Anyway, my wife has contractors who work for her. They are told when to show up, when to leave, when to go potty and when to eat lunch. They take their orders from my wife, not the temp agency they work for. They're paid by the hour. They're using Verizon's equipment, and working on Verizon's premises. And I saw the exact same thing, not a bit of difference, in my first job out of college with IBM. That's two fortune 100 companies who are not with-holding federal income taxes on their "employees".

Can you tell me how these people can be classified as contractors? It almost sounds like they are employees, but Verizon/IBM is/was paying them as contactors. The burden of taxation has been shifted in both instances from the employer to the employee.

[/B]

DFW-

The contractors working at Verizon, IBM, and other companies THROUGH a temp agency are just that "contractors." They are technically employees of the agency providing them and they must have an I-9 filed with proper documentation with the agency. They also handle all taxes and withholdings, garnishments, etc. Verizon is paying a retail rate for a service. The contractor is not entitled to any of the benefits provided by Verizon, and often are not included in bonus programs, christmas parties, etc.

Microsoft got into serious trouble a few years ago by giving contractors company incentives and ended up paying out a several million dollar fine in a settlement. Everyone watches this real close now because of this.

Hope that answers your question.

One Degree
01-09-2004, 10:12 AM
If someone has a social security card doesn't that give them the right to vote? Which means if this does pass in the next 8 months then Bush would have a huge backing from the hispanic population for the next presidential race. Good for him if it does pass! As far as hiring illegal help if they provide you their SS card or other documents then they are not illegal. Who are you to judge if it is an "over the counter SS card." As I heard from a collegue one day "It is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."

DFW Area Landscaper
01-09-2004, 10:38 AM
++++The contractors working at Verizon, IBM, and other companies THROUGH a temp agency are just that "contractors."++++

Clear as mud.

So contractors working for an LCO can be "contractors" too?

The fortune 500 company has shifted the burden of with-holding taxes from them to a little mom & pop employment agency.

I see no difference between that and a small business owner, like most of us in the LCO industry, who decides to call his employees "contractors" and shifts the burden of tax wth-holding from himself to his helper.

What am I missing here?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

I am Me
01-09-2004, 01:04 PM
DFW-

Let me see if I can clarify.

"The fortune 500 company has shifted the burden of with-holding taxes from them to a little mom & pop employment agency"

Technically, yes. However, the Mom and Pop agency is collecting back from verizon the following: hourly wage paid to employee, all federal and state withholding costs, all costs of benefits, and a sizeable profit.

Example:

hr wage: $10.00
Burdon: $1.50 (payroll and benefits cost)
profit $5.18

total cost per hour: $16.68

The benefit in doing this, is that they can inflate their staff without being held liable for headcount. Its a budget thing. Also it allows them to terminate without reason, or going through the proper documentation steps. They simply pick up the phone, call the rep, and say " Sam's assignment is over. do not have him report tomorrow." Sam can now collect unemployment from the agency, not Verizon.

"So contractors working for an LCO can be "contractors" too?"

Yes. Either through an agency or 10-99.


"I see no difference between that and a small business owner, like most of us in the LCO industry, who decides to call his employees "contractors" and shifts the burden of tax wth-holding from himself to his helper."

True. But in order to call them a contractor, you must file all wages with the government. This is tracked through your income filing, and the 10-99's that you send out. I could be mistaken, but I think you need a SS# on the employee in order to properly issue them a 10-99. The SS# is the big focus here. It is your personal identification number with the government.Its how they track and monitor everything partaining to you.Green in Idaho, or Bruces would be a better source for this. They are accountants. I am not.

The difference between the two, is that SOMEONE is picking up 50% of the tax burden and is also providing benefits to the employee. 1/2 of fica, 1/2 of social security, and so on. They are an EMPLOYEE of an entity outside of themselves. A 10-99 contractor is self employed, and therefore is responsible for all of the tax burden and their own benefits.

Hope this helps.

I am Me
01-09-2004, 01:35 PM
From the IRS website:


How do you determine if a person is an employee or an independent contractor?

The determination is complex, but is essentially made by examining the right to control how, when, and where the person performs services. It is not based on how the person is paid, how often the person is paid, nor whether the person works work part-time or full-time. There is no statutory definition of what an employee is, but from common law three basic areas have been identified:

behavioral control,
financial control, and
type of relationship.

For more information on employer-employee relationships, refer to Chapter 2 of Publication 15-A (PDF),

In other words, you have no control over when, where, or how the contractor performs the service. You can only manage the outcome.

crawdad
01-09-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by proenterprises
yes, however, every tom, **** and harry in this country goes around calling everyone they see with dark skin a mexican. it is steretypical rude and degrading:angry: so dont do it.

Now we have to be careful not to hurt the feelings of illegals? Come on, folks, this is political correctness gone totally overboard.
I used to work with a lot of foreigners up north(Portuguese), we had a guy named "Hose-A" and the next guy was nick-named "Hose-B." The nickname was given to him by a fellow greenhorn. Oops, can I say greenhorn, or can only other greenhorns use that word?

Originally posted by Phishook
Anyway, wouldn't this fall under "Rule" #4?

I was wondering the same thing, people admitting on a public forum their total disregard for the law. What's next, a "how many beers for lunch" thread?
Crawdad

DFW Area Landscaper
01-09-2004, 01:48 PM
It's really very confusing. I can't imagine why any small business operator would prefer to pay employees as 'employees' as opposed to 'contractors'.

With contractors, you don't have to with-hold income taxes, you don't have to with-hold and match SS & Med, you don't have to pay unemployment insurance. The burden on all of that is on the 'contractor', not the employer.

As far as the old rule of thumb that everyone follows, it seems arbitrary. Who's equipment is being used? Is there direct supervision of the worker? Can the worker do the work on his own schedule? Verizon & IBM are using contractors and all of the common tests indicate those workers are employees. But they're paid as contractors.

I'm beginning to think that there must be a different test to determine if someone is an employee. One for the IRS and the courts.

Next question is, how do you know when you've got to get a tax ID number/SS number? Sprint PCS provides a service to me. I pay them over $600/yr, but I don't have their tax ID number. And I won't be sending them a 1099. Why is it different for an employee that I decide to label a 'contractor'? Both the worker and Sprint PCS are providing a service to my business.

What's the rule here????

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

I am Me
01-09-2004, 02:37 PM
As far as the old rule of thumb that everyone follows, it seems arbitrary. Who's equipment is being used? Is there direct supervision of the worker? Can the worker do the work on his own schedule? Verizon & IBM are using contractors and all of the common tests indicate those workers are employees. But they're paid as contractors.

I know it is very confusing, and hard to follow.

From the IRS website:


Who is an Independent Contractor?
A general rule is that you, the payer, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work done by an independent contractor, and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result.

Example: Steve Smith, a computer programmer, is laid off when Megabyte Inc. downsizes. Megabyte agrees to pay Steve a flat amount to complete a one-time project to create a certain product. It is not clear how long it will take to complete the project, and Steve is not guaranteed any minimum payment for the hours spent on the program. Megabyte provides Steve with no instructions beyond the specification for the product itself. Steve and Megabyte have a written contract, which provides that Steve is considered to be an independent contractor, is required to pay Federal and state taxes, and receives no benefits from Megabyte. Megabyte will file a Form 1099-MISC (PDF). Steve does the work on a new high-end computer which cost him $7000. Steve works at home and is not expected or allowed to attend meetings of the software development group. Steve is an independent contractor

Clear as mud?

I'll get back to you on the sprint deal.

Fvstringpicker
01-09-2004, 03:11 PM
Really not all that complicated except for folks who try to beat the withholding requirement. If you hire a person with the intention of working for you (you da boss), you pay the person by the hour in lieu of by the job, they use your equipment, you tell them how you want them to use the equipment, it's in your best interest to withhold tax and issue w-2's. Just because you think it's confusing is not going to exempt you. Believe me, you don't want to fight the IRS unless your willing to spend a lot of money for legal costs.

whunter
01-09-2004, 04:31 PM
Where did the misconception come from that illegals do not pay taxes. If your paying under the table that is a different story. If there is going to be a debate, then the facts need to be right.

Also, I do not know where the notion came from that Hispanics do not make good money came from, but that is just not true. Sure some laborers make slightly over minumum wage, but that is with out any skills, and if a person is willingly to work hard, learn skills, english and get a drivers license then in my company there going to move up quickly. I have hispanic guys that did not know any thing when I first hired them and now bring in $50,000+, we have a sitework division with operators that make $18.00+ per hour.

If any of ya'll are not using Hispanic labor, then you do not know what your missing. One Mexican can out produce 4 Americans.

We all need to call our political leaders and support this proposal.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-09-2004, 04:31 PM
++++Really not all that complicated except for folks who try to beat the withholding requirement.++++

Well, there are plenty of landscapers in this country who are paying their employees as contractors as opposed to employees:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57941&highlight=employee+pay

++++Really not all that complicated++++

Really? Are you serious? Haven't you ever seen television or listened to the radio around April 15th? Our tax code is a joke. It's totally confusing. I don't think anyone has ever actually read it. It's like a stack of papers 10 feet tall or something. Senators all over the country have even admitted that they don't understand our tax code.

If I have a right to pay my helpers as contractors as opposed to employees, I'd like to do that. I'm just totally unclear on this issue. It's kind of like the guy who analyzed the tax returns of a school teacher and she had over paid her taxes for years. I don't want to be like that school teacher:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=58700&highlight=refund

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

olderthandirt
01-09-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by whunter
Where did the misconception come from that illegals do not pay taxes. If your paying under the table that is a different story. If there is going to be a debate, then the facts need to be right.

Also, I do not know where the notion came from that Hispanics do not make good money came from, but that is just not true. Sure some laborers make slightly over minumum wage, but that is with out any skills, and if a person is willingly to work hard, learn skills, english and get a drivers license then in my company there going to move up quickly. I have hispanic guys that did not know any thing when I first hired them and now bring in $50,000+, we have a sitework division with operators that make $18.00+ per hour.

If any of ya'll are not using Hispanic labor, then you do not know what your missing. One Mexican can out produce 4 Americans.

We all need to call our political leaders and support this proposal. I know 4 americans that are not employed by you . If your statement is true then Mexico would be the great industrialized country of the west

proenterprises
01-09-2004, 07:49 PM
Just cause I have lived for less years it doesnt mean i dont know whats going on. I have grown up around business, employees, and my father with 3 brothers working very hard from the time i could remember things.

I was out working and helping by age 8. I have seen employees come, seen the mess up and see them go. I have also seen a fare share make a name for thenselves and stay for years on end, and the majority of those are the hispanics. Yes, they may not "legally" be here, they still pay tax on payroll. So what if they dont speak english...dosent effect teh work quality.

Maybe i cant "sign a contract" or do whatever else you say I cant...but I do know how to work hard, and I do know that the hispanic labor force is solid as a rock...


So-you can take that BS flagpole of yours and ram it up both of your rear ends-just because i am young-dosent mean i am stupid

pcnservices
01-09-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by One Degree
If someone has a social security card doesn't that give them the right to vote?
NO. Every alien non-immigrant (a person legally here with a temporary work visa) has a SS card and SS# They are not a citizen yet, therefore they are not allowed to vote. Processing times for citizenship can take many many years.

Therefore if Bush is canvassing for the Hispanic vote it will be the Hispanic community that are already sworn in citizens of this country and not the illegals or undocumented they now want to give temporary workers authorisation. He (Bush) only got Ī 30% and Gore got 62% of that vote in 2000.
Is politics is starting to make sense to me !?!?

pcnservices
01-09-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by WESLEY BROWN
Bush said if they get the green card then they have to be hired by somone and can only have that job three years and then they get deported.
Wesley no my friend :laugh: you've got the cat by the b@lls.
In Bush's immigration reform plan he only PROPOSED that if they (the illegal or undocumented immigrant) have a valid job offer from an employer willing to hire him/her after he (the employer) has proofed that he cannot find a suitable/qualified American citizen to do that specific job he (the employee) can file for a temporary workers authorisation valid for 3 years. After that if the foreign worker so wish they can start with the filing process for permanent residency.
If your statement is true then nobody will come forward and apply for a legal working status and the current problem with illegal immigrants will become an even bigger problem in future.

Fvstringpicker
01-09-2004, 08:59 PM
If I have a right to pay my helpers as contractors as opposed to employees, I'd like to do that. I'm just totally unclear on this issue.

DFW Area Landscaper: I'm really not trying to be a smart a$$ but I'm trying to warn you. You don't have the option of treating bona fide employees as independent contractors. If your intent is to hire a person as an employee, that's probably what they are. An independent contractor is more or less independent. Example, you are the independent contractor for your clients. You use your own tools, equipment ect. to complete a specific job for "X" amount of dollars. The person "hiring" you does not direct your work although they expect a finished product, i.e. completed contract. They literally can't fire you without facing legal ramifications. The person helping you (employee) is directed by you to work in whatever area you choose.-running a mower, trimming, picking up sticks. Your client can't tell you to go pick up lunch, but you can tell your employee to go pick up lunch and fire them if they are insubordinate.

Mowingman
01-09-2004, 09:13 PM
If you want your worker to be considered a contractor by the IRS, you must answer,YES, to these two basic questions.
1. Does your worker provide his own tools?
2. Does your worker set his own hours?
If your answer to either is ,NO, then he is an employee, not a contractor.:(

mtdman
01-09-2004, 09:41 PM
Personally, I would never hire illegal hispanic laborors. And I don't have to. :D They should all be sent packing, and that border should be patrolled by the National Gaurd to keep the from coming back in. Bush's new policy is aimed at getting votes in the Hispanic population, and it will only serve to draw more illegals to our country. Which will change the face of America in the years to come, not to mention adding a huge burden to our already overburdened public assistance programs.

America isn't the wide open space it used to be, and we cannot continue to let people pour into our country unchecked. Our resources will become overtaxed and our tax money will be directed to supporting immigrants on welfare. Not to mention the fact that we need to secure our borders more in order to secure ourselves as a nation. The same President who goes to war all over the world to protect America would leave us wide open for terrorists to sneak in over our unprotected borders. I live in Michigan, and every day there are 1 to 2 hour backups at the Detroit/Canadian crossings due to border security. Yet millions of Mexicans can walk over our miles and miles of open borderland to our south. That's a big huge stinking red flag in my mind. What the President is doing is selling our future and our security for a sector of votes. Thanks a bunch.

nelbuts
01-09-2004, 11:22 PM
ProEnterprises let me tell you something here and now.

I have had a maintenance company that grossed over 1.5 million a year in cutting alone. Employed 20 workers full time year round. Had two mexicans. Both born in the U.S. one would get drunk and I would have to bail him out. Helped him and his family all the time. Worked his tail off all the time. He was paid $500 per week, company truck, half of his insurance paid, and 2 weeks paid vacation. Worked for me for three years. One day he did not show up. Went to house and he had quit. The S.O.B. took a $36,000 per year account!! The other was just as bad but did not drink. He led my pruning crew. They pruned 48 hours per week three - four workers. When he quit he took some accounts. Never had problems with other do that. I will grant you one thing they do work but they walk too. I had two walk off the job 50 miles from the shop!! Did not tell a sole.

Once again, if you hire illegals you are breaking our country's laws and I have no respect for you. If you worked here I would turn you in and smile as they led you away in handcuffs. This is why we cannot get the money we deserve. Because you and others like you will keep prices low based on the fact that you hire illegals. I still say that it is a marketing tool that if you stick with could make you wealthy instead of making you a jailbird. Oh and by the way, if you are caught and arrested you lose your right to vote and carry a firearm forever. Is it worth that!?

proenterprises
01-09-2004, 11:33 PM
nelbuts-i do see your point of view and can agree with that. some of us have better luck with "hispanic" labor forces than others...seems you have had bad luck, i for one have had flawless luck.

it is illegal, however i sure hope you dont ride around ratting people out for haveing those workers on board.

it does strain the economy and does factor in lost tax dollars. however, it is a temp sollution-and one that for my father and his brothers has worked. I am sure this will not last though.

Thanks.

thill
01-09-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
++++1099 are for non-employees (independent contractors). If you don't withold taxes (FICA, fed tax etc.), your already subject to stiff penalties++++

I know several people who have been in business for themselves as welders, landscapers, etc. who have paid all their wages via 1099, never with-held a dime and have never been bothered by any branch of government. Some have been doing this for 10+ years.

1099 vs W2 is a pretty grey area, I think. My wife works for Verizon. I assume Verizon is following the letter of the law. Anyway, my wife has contractors who work for her. They are told when to show up, when to leave, when to go potty and when to eat lunch. They take their orders from my wife, not the temp agency they work for. They're paid by the hour. They're using Verizon's equipment, and working on Verizon's premises. And I saw the exact same thing, not a bit of difference, in my first job out of college with IBM. That's two fortune 100 companies who are not with-holding federal income taxes on their "employees".

Can you tell me how these people can be classified as contractors? It almost sounds like they are employees, but Verizon/IBM is/was paying them as contactors. The burden of taxation has been shifted in both instances from the employer to the employee.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

DFW, It looks like Verizon is calling them contractors but are paying a temp agency. If that is the case, the temp agency is with holding taxes, paying and filing 941 taxes.

It's very common for companies who use temps to call them contractors, it is "more politically correct"

Tom,

thill
01-09-2004, 11:40 PM
Geeeeze, that one covered old ground, I missed the last two pages of this thread.

Sorry,
Tom

Mark P
01-10-2004, 12:10 AM
:) I have a friend who is a carpet contractor, Ive helped him out many time's in the winter, He pays me and im responsable for paying my taxes, insurance, ect, he uses me as a sub-contractor, I figure my taxes and pay them every yr ive helped him..He's been doing this for 35yrs, But i do think that if your a sub-contractor you should have your own tools, and give him a bill for your services, still the IRS has told him he's Legit..... I know several who hire there employees this way LCO's, they the employees are responsable for paying there insurance and taxes just like anyother sub-contractor....Marks Mowing Service

DFW Area Landscaper
01-10-2004, 10:28 AM
++++I have a friend who is a carpet contractor....He pays me and im responsable for paying my taxes...I figure my taxes and pay them every yr....He's been doing this for 35yrs...the IRS has told him he's Legit...I know several who hire there employees this way++++

See what I mean? I see no reason to pay employees as employees...just make them contractors. I know people who have been doing this for years too. They've never had any problems either.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

xcopterdoc
01-10-2004, 10:40 AM
The US has always had, and always will have a cheap labor force to do some kinds of work. We had the African Americans, the Irish, the Chinese. The list goes on and on. Read some history sometime. Labor is a big expence, therfore if you can cut labor costs, then you add more to the bottom line. Not all immigrant labor remains cheaply paid. Some move up the ladder to foreman/leadmen, but the majority struggle on workin for the man.

brucec32
01-10-2004, 10:50 AM
What a nice little third -world type black market economy we're creating for ourselves. Where do we emmigrate to when we've mucked it up here?

BravesFan
01-10-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
++++I have a friend who is a carpet contractor....He pays me and im responsable for paying my taxes...I figure my taxes and pay them every yr....He's been doing this for 35yrs...the IRS has told him he's Legit...I know several who hire there employees this way++++

See what I mean? I see no reason to pay employees as employees...just make them contractors. I know people who have been doing this for years too. They've never had any problems either.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

DFW,

All it takes is one disgruntled employee to turn you in. You'll get the wakeup call of the lifetime.

Same deal with trying to put a non-management employee on salary when they should be hourly...and getting overtime. It's all fine and dandy until the government is notified. The government can impose STEEP fines and/or close your doors.

I don't care to gamble with my future.

Dennis

whunter
01-10-2004, 11:01 AM
olderthandirt:

If I had a choice I would hire Americans, (and do not missunderstand I do have a large % of white, black whatever workers.) And i have had my share of hispanics that were not worth a ****. But overall the Hispanics are my best workers. And if I ran a company with 10 employees I could probally fill my needs with Americans.

For instance, we have had a large amount of textile mill workers lose there jobs around here lately. That could be a large pool of future employees for me. If they were willing to learn the skills needed to perform my jobs, and be willing to work hot, cold, long hours, as needed to get the job done in the line of business. I personally do not think the majority of them are, not for any amount of money. The business we are in is a growing industry, that can not be sent overseas to be done.

So, the reason I support Pres. Bush's proposal is purely driven by the almighty $. I pay all my employees well based on position, I provide insurance and paid vacation. I do not hire hispanics if they can not produce the proper documents. The reason I like the hispanic worker is they simply produce more with the only thing they have to offer (physical demanding labor).

I am very patriotic and would much rather hire Americans, but I would not be doing favors to anyone by hiring people who can not produce, just to be giving them a job.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-10-2004, 12:45 PM
++++im responsable for paying my taxes++++

Isn't that the way it's supposed to be for everyone? Problem is, just as we get stiffed by non-paying customers, if taxes weren't with-held by employers, the government would get stiffed by the masses. Only problem is, if the employer is a deadbeat, they get into trouble not only for themselves, but for their employees too. Anyway, they've decided to make the more responsible party to the payroll transaction with-hold the taxes...the employer.

My opinion? I think it's bull schit, plain and simple.

But, I'm still scared of the IRS. No one really knows for sure if we're required to with-hold taxes or if we can pay our employees via 1099 and let them pay their taxes. But the safe route, the route that keeps you out of the focus of the federal mafia, aka the IRS, is to with-hold. So I guess I'll with-hold. Cause I sure as heck don't want the federal mafia getting mad at me. I've heard horror stories about that. Lot's of small businesses doing it the 1099 way, but it may be that they've gotten away with it simply by never being audited...maybe it's the incorrect way, maybe it's not...I'll probably never know for sure. I'm not about to try to read the friggin' tax code. Supposedly, it's incomprehensible anyway.

So, I guess I'll ask my hispanic laborer to get me a SS#. If he can't get one, I guess I'll have to find a new helper.

Are we required to see a photo ID when we hire someone too? Is there some way to get into trouble with the IRS if an employee is giving you a SS# that isn't real? Do we have to see a SS card or should we just trust that the employee is writing down the right number? Any guidelines on this?

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper

Fantasy Lawns
01-10-2004, 01:07 PM
Soon after you file your 941 Quarterly & UT-6 State Quarterly that should send any red flags up to the state & fed level as the employees name & ss# is on that Ö. But also on the other side when you create you I-9 for that employee that just has a ss# they also need another form of ID which can even be a voter card but most the other forms will have a photo

Also if you carry WC the yearly audit should catch it ... those ^%$# audits are *&%$ heads

J.Gordon
01-10-2004, 04:03 PM
My take on Bush wanting to give the illegal aliens work passes.
I think Bush is selling our country for votes and big business.
When you get people coming over for the low wages, there is only one winner and thatís the business that hires them. The tax payer is the one footing the bill for the cheap labor!! The business gets a $5.35 an hour worker and the taxpayer gets to pay there medical, food stamps, Housing etc. If they are illegal they should be deported period. I do not think this is good for our country. If you steal you should pay for the crime not get rewarded for it!! Just my .02

nelbuts
01-10-2004, 04:52 PM
I find it hard to believe that business people do not know labor laws. BTW your account can give you the list of all of them. But here are a few.

If the worker uses any of your equipment, then he is an employee not a sub.

If the worker is told to report to work at a set time everyday then he is an employye.

If worker is given orders on how to do a job, what route to do the job in, or other directions then he is an employee.

A sub contractor has a business license. If not, then you are hiring an unlicensed sub.

Now someone asked if I would turn someone in for using illegals. Simple answer for that one YES! If I was sure they were illegal. Now before you say that I am bad on this. Just how many of you would turn someone in for spraying illegally. Most. Point is do not break the law. I have never hired an illegal but have hired some mexicans. They flat out had to have a greeen card and speak English.

Fvstringpicker
01-10-2004, 07:57 PM
My take simply put, we are sending all the highly paid manufacturing, and now professional jobs, overseas. We are now importing cheap labor to fill what's left of the service jobs. I wonder sometimes if anybody has reconized the relationship between job loss due to globalization and the lackluster sales growth reported With the lay-off in textiles in Georgia, I see more and more lawn services. A phrase one of my old economic professors used to say is "Profits,when known, breed ruinous competition. As a CPA, I know of few businesses with as low a start-up cost and, as of now, as much profit potential for the investment as lawn service. I "inherited" my operation ( which I paid for anyway) from my step son who figured he'd rather smoke grass than cut it, for less than 10 g's, For a few hours a week p/t , I net more than that in a year, thus recovering 100% of my investment every year. Its going to be mighty tempting for folks out of work because of labor imports, job exports and "globalization" ( the darling buzzword of wall street) to start cutting grass for a living. As of today, the Lagrange Georgia area lost 850+ textile jobs. (relocated overseas). Reckon how many new lawn services are going to spring up in that area? Wonder how long it's going to be before these Mexicans set up shop and start working for your clients like they work for us, at a cheaper hourly rate? Might as well face it, competition drives down prices even in lawn care. Think of the market as a pie, the more you slice it, the smaller the pieces.

44toy
01-10-2004, 10:44 PM
Sounds like you are in similar situation to me. small textile town, start mowing business for another boy, he decided he did not want it. when mills closed down my job went south. Now with some economizing this part time job pays my bills.
But the big boys seem to be loosing alot of work and I fear I may loose to many of my yards. but I will not work for free, If I have to I will use my mowers to mow my yard till things come around. I will never burn them up for $10 an hour. times are hard and life is changing quick, one day someone is on top the next they sell out. I went to 2 Auctions landscape related business before christmas. my junk is paid for and will not have to be given away to pay the note on it.

Fvstringpicker
01-11-2004, 11:07 AM
44Toy:

I usually keep my mouth shut on political issues but Bush's new plan to legalize the illegals for what I suspect is to allow the big boys to hire cheap labor and now reap a tax deduction for the now legal labor cost is a bit much. A little more and I think the next time up I'll vote democratic; I don't care if ted kennedy is in the slot. What would be really nice if we had a President and a majority of Congress that was more concerned about the welfare of average American citizen and less concerned about mexico, lobbyist, big business, NAFTA, protecting HMO's muslims, the frickin middle east and the whole dam bunch. The big increase in lumber prices due to the shortage caused by rebuilding iraq may be worderful for corporate profits, wall street and the related bonuses for their executives, but they're hell on me.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-12-2004, 06:02 PM
I must admit, I'm a little surprised by most of the reactions on this thread.

If the illegal workers are allowed to work legally, it seems LCO's would be huge beneficiaries. It would be adding more potential employees to the pool. Seems to me if you add more supply of employee labor in the $8 to $10 per hour range and demand doesn't increase, prices for labor may come down a bit. Since we're in the business of selling labor, I would think LCO's would benefit.

As for the argument that these guys are taking american jobs, I just don't buy it. I don't know any grown, responsible adults who are working for that type of pay. I'm sure a lot of grown americans are working for that kind of pay...I just don't know any. If you're earning a living by performing a task that can be done by someone who can't even speak the language, you're probably not working smart...you're working hard. Hard work in our country simply doesn't pay. Smart work does. It's been that way my entire life. It can be frustrating, and I really don't agree with it, but that's the way our country is. I say let the americans do the smart work and allow our strong currency to get the hard work done.

Another thing: If this passes, will any contractors hire people without valid green cards? Why take the chance? What I foresee happening is that those illegal workers who don't get a green card won't be able to find any work at all. They'll be forced to get the green card, which will enable the government to keep tabs on them and only allow them to work here for a set period of time.

Just my two cents on the subject.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

jeffex
01-12-2004, 06:34 PM
I am trying to keep an open mind on Bushs plan. If the goal is to legalize these workers then that is a step in the right direction. Having their employers pay social security taxes and Workman's competition will help ease the burden these illegals place on social services now. There will be more peopl paying into soc. sec. so I might actually get my check at 62. These workers will still be valuable even if they are paid above board. They have a good work ethic. Hell who wouldn't't since they probably are way better off here than back in Mexico. I don't think they should be given amnesty for breaking the immigration laws. A 3 year work permit sounds good but what will happen after that. Our INS and boarder patrol has been merged into homeland security. They haven't stopped the flow of illegals now and they probably won't 3 years from now. The real goal of Bushs proposed plan is to get Hispanic voters to vote for him. Not a bad plan!! Since the plan probably will never get off the ground and bush will look like he is sympathetic to the fastest growing segment of our country's population. Illegal or not they are here!

DFW Area Landscaper
01-12-2004, 06:45 PM
++++A 3 year work permit sounds good but what will happen after that.++++

All the new immigrants will have valid green cards and the immigrant whose green card has just expired will not be able to find work.

I just don't think anyone will hire an illegal hispanic worker if there is an ample supply of legal hispanic workers. Why take the chance if good workers with valid green cards are plentiful?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

jeffex
01-12-2004, 07:02 PM
I agree. If there are more registered workers than illegals then that will be true. We already have a process for obtaining citizenship and they should have to jump throught those hoops too if they want to stay. That includes learning english and being available to fight for this country. They are good workers and some employers are taking advantage of their off the books status. I suspect many illegals will be afraid to register legally even if bushs plan is put into effect. They will be threatened by their current employers to stay under the table. GREED

pcnservices
01-12-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
All the new immigrants will have valid green cards.....
DFW, the blanket statement that all new immigrants will have Green Cards is wrong.

I said this in a previous post on this thread and will say it again here:
Bush said very clearly that his administration opposes blanket amnesty. Therefore if you think illegals is now all of a sudden going to fall in a line at the INS's office and get a Green Card, you are wrong. He (Bush) only PROPOSED that undocumented workers gets a temparory workers authorization for 3 years and only thereafter if they so wish they can apply for and start with a filing process to permanent residency which is another 3-4 year process.
Or they can extend the visa for a futher 3 years and thereafter they HAVE to return home.

Therefore I don't think Bush's plan is going to solve the problem of illegal workers here, becuase who's gonna want to go home after 6 years? They're just gonna stay here illegal again.

PC

DFW Area Landscaper
01-12-2004, 07:49 PM
++++I suspect many illegals will be afraid to register legally even if bushs plan is put into effect. They will be threatened by their current employers to stay under the table.++++

That makes zero sense to me. None what-so-ever.

Why would a contractor want to do business under the tables? There would be an easy way to hire the same quality hispanic labor and not risk an ugly audit by the IRS by just making sure the guy they're hiring has the green card.

Workers without green cards would find it hard to get work.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

jeffex
01-12-2004, 08:31 PM
The greedy ones will want to keep the cheap labor and lack of gov intervention. It is still easy to pick up day labor and pay him off that day with no accounting costs. Laborors who register will go on the books and no longer be desirable by the greediest employers. I think there will always be these type of employers. The new documented labor force will be beter for everyone but I still think some will be afraid of registering

Hodge
01-12-2004, 10:00 PM
Ok, Checked with my CPA and he stated

If I am looking for helpers for the jobs I have now (sod, flowerbeds) then it would best to hire a guy at a labor camp and pay him as an contractor. Have him sign a doco that he is aware that is is not a contract for employment and he will get a 1099. Now I know I would provide the tools but that can be "overlooked". That way I have no need for the taxes issue.

When the season starts hire a different guy and have him work on the crew of three. He would be an employee and taxes will be taken out.

Somebody correct me is this is not right.

Also about the taxes I would withhold half of his federal taxes based upon the estimated gross receipts per year, and I would have to pay the other half .... for the privilege of having him as an employee... Correct.


If this is correct this is what I will do.:waving:

thill
01-12-2004, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hodge
[B]Ok, Checked with my CPA and he stated


Somebody correct me is this is not right.

Also about the taxes I would withhold half of his federal taxes based upon the estimated gross receipts per year, and I would have to pay the other half .... for the privilege of having him as an employee... Correct.


You withhold the employees federal income tax AND you withhold 50% of his social security (FICA) and medicare (FICA-M). You then have to match the two FICAs when you make your periodica federal tax deposit. Weekly, monthly, or quarterly based on the size of your payroll.

Tom

Hodge
01-13-2004, 07:41 AM
You withhold the employees federal income tax AND you withhold 50% of his social security (FICA) and medicare (FICA-M). You then have to match the two FICAs when you make your periodica federal tax deposit. Weekly, monthly, or quarterly based on the size of your payroll.

Excellent. So can the Texas Workforce Commission provide a copy of the rates booklet or do I have to go in to pickup

Any response to the first part of this post.:jester:

soonernation
01-14-2004, 12:38 AM
I have been in the restraunt business for 6 years to help me with my business. You cant go in to 90%of all corporate kitchens in the midsouth, and not find someone of non-American descent working their a@#es off. Corporate restraunts are 10X more likely to get flack from the government than we are. The bottom line is, the government DOES NOT CARE. Big corporations are taking their labor to China and India so they can make their business grow. I feel no different. I am here to make my business grow and if that means giving someone, who wasnt born with the same opportunities that I was, a chance to make some good old American cash, so be it. Luckily, all my guys have the proper papers. One more thing. Its my job to be able to communicate with them. I have the money to go out and buy computer programs and dictionarys to teach me. They don't.

brucec32
01-14-2004, 04:10 PM
yep, nothing matters in life but the almighty dollar, does it? Screw the kids and grandkids, the environment, homeland security, and anyone who depends on wages instead of self employment for a living, right? What really matters is growing your business and walling yourself off in a gated community where those foreigners can't afford to live. Right? As long as one doesn't, god forbid, try to date your daughter, right?

soonernation
01-15-2004, 02:45 PM
Right. You'll have to excuse me if Im a little protective of my workers. I see the way some people look at them, and it makes me angry that we dont take a second to try and accept them before we start snickering and making gated community comments. I dont think thats fair. Besides, I spent 3 years putting up with pimply faced American kids that either didn't show up, or complained about the heat so much that I sent them home. Finally I came to the realization that most people in ther 20's dont have the passion for this like I do, and can't keep up. Much less think they are worth less than $10 an hour. My guys now can bring it. And remember, FLorida and Oklahoma/Texas have 2 completely different ethnic groups of Latin descent coming in to our parts of the country. I guess if I were you, I'd lock up my doors and my daughters.

J.Gordon
01-15-2004, 05:01 PM
I myself donít have a problem with people coming over here legally trying to better themselves. As long as there not leaching the tax payers dollars. That goes for anyone who is able to work. If you have to resort in hiring illegal immigrants then something is wrong. You would be breaking the law for one! As far as Oklahoma is concerned itís still the same as any other state. Itís either legal or illegal. Just because the local, state and federal governments turn the other way when here companies hiring illegal aliens doesnít mean the taxpayer should have to support them! (What I mean by support is any medical, food stamps low-income housing etc)
If you come to this country you should be self-sufficient! No gray areas here.
When someone goes to the emergency room but doesnít have any money, who do you think pays for it! And some people canít understand why medical insurance is so high and hospital charge so much. What would you do if someone had you mow their lawn but didnít have the money to pay you? Try to get the taxpayers to pay for them. Or maybe you would charge your clients who do pay more to absorb the cost for the deadbeat.

Just my .02

soonernation
01-15-2004, 05:37 PM
J Gordon-
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I guess I didn't look at it from the tax payers point of view. I haven't had to deal with anything illegal yet because my guys are legal. It sounds like its a "Bigger Deal" than what my perception on the subject has been. I've always turned my head. As for the Oklahoma vs Florida minorities comment, I meant that the minoritys where I'm from give me no reason to live in a gated community, Your right though, its black and white, legal or illegal.:D

heather
01-16-2004, 09:57 AM
I have tried hiring good old Americans time after time. I get tired of hearing the excuses why they are late or didn,t show up.Since I have started hiring Latinos(not all are from mex.)my business has grown considerably.I even have a crew that is in another city that is a sub contractor. I take a % of the gross because I hold a liability policy for them. A buddy of mine has slowly fired all is Americans(because of work ethic problems)and now has a all Latino crew. my life has gotten better since I started speaking a little Spanish! :D

brucec32
01-16-2004, 01:47 PM
You people just made my point for me. Screw national sovereignty, screw our culture, screw being able to communicate to your neighbor, screw the idea of living in a non-overpopulated country w/o traffic jams, screw clean air, screw trying to improve wages to where motiviated Americans would work for you, as long as you're making a buck your kids can all go to hell, right? The idea of a guy mowing lawns or mulching beds or digging holes for you making $15/hour just burns you up, doesn't it?

Newsflash. We ain't exactly importing the best and brightest form around the world, your fantasies of the noble savage worker to the contrary. But then you don't care about that, do you, you've got your bank account to worry about.

Unlike many here, I can back up my statements. Here's an example, this is on criminal aliens. I have literally hundreds others if you care to debate it logically and not toss out "my American workers sucked". So what? We're supposed to destroy our way of life so that you can get better help easier? Try learning how to manage people, motivate them, and appeal to something beyond the lowest common denominator.

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1252&c=17

soonernation
01-16-2004, 03:13 PM
Bruce32- Sounds like youreone of those that used firehoses on minorities in the 60's. Your radical arien websight was barely eye opening, but your the rest of your points sounded somewhat similar to people that wear pointy hats. How in the hell do you pay someone over half of what is close to 40% of your daily income? I'm supplying the equipment, gas, and everything else that goes into running a business. Our culture? Our culture began with immigrants!! Giving other people a chance make the best of their lives. Yes, we need to come up with a system to moderate and record who's coming in. Open your mind to new horizons and learn a different language and maybe you'll see that these people are bright and you might get more out of them if you didn't look at them like they were trying to steel your pretty 3' Hemi. If 22% of our prisons are filled with them, that means 78% are of other thnic descent. Lots of whites. I agree with you and JGordon that its not fair to our tax payers to pay for them. But at least JGordon's view is bases on fairness to American citizens and not a personal struggle with his brown surroundings. I dont think I should pay for people on welfare that decided to pop out 8 kids and not work, but as long as they're American, let freedom ring!

Fvstringpicker
01-16-2004, 07:09 PM
Soonernation:

I suppose if OJ can play the race card to beat a murder rap, you oughta be able to play it to justify paying low(er) wages. However, your approach to making your point is a bit stale; You know what I'm talkin about, --- Lets shut up and discredit ole Bruce32 by accusing him of being like an evil racist. That oughta send him running for the hills.

sgreanbean
01-16-2004, 09:47 PM
I work as a area manager for one of the nations largest LCO'S. I also work in southern california, we have about 1500 laborers! So as an authority on this peticular subject I have 1 thing to say. GET USED TO IT!!!!! It is not going to change. It is simple( low labor cost = profit) when these guys get registerd they think they are gonna get more money and that will not happen. For every 1 you fire there are ten more to replace him. I dont like it but fellas, thats the world we live in!.................. ok...more then 1 thing!

brucec32
01-17-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by soonernation
Bruce32- Sounds like youreone of those that used firehoses on minorities in the 60's. Your radical arien websight was barely eye opening, but your the rest of your points sounded somewhat similar to people that wear pointy hats. How in the hell do you pay someone over half of what is close to 40% of your daily income? I'm supplying the equipment, gas, and everything else that goes into running a business. Our culture? Our culture began with immigrants!! Giving other people a chance make the best of their lives. Yes, we need to come up with a system to moderate and record who's coming in. Open your mind to new horizons and learn a different language and maybe you'll see that these people are bright and you might get more out of them if you didn't look at them like they were trying to steel your pretty 3' Hemi. If 22% of our prisons are filled with them, that means 78% are of other thnic descent. Lots of whites. I agree with you and JGordon that its not fair to our tax payers to pay for them. But at least JGordon's view is bases on fairness to American citizens and not a personal struggle with his brown surroundings. I dont think I should pay for people on welfare that decided to pop out 8 kids and not work, but as long as they're American, let freedom ring!

Typically irrational reaction there. Let me address your points anyway.

1. cultures vary. People are different. Fact of life. Get used to it. The current trendy moral relativism (everything is equal, just different) will soon lay on the ashheap of history when it's provden to be a fraud. Do you think Mexico is such a bad place to live because of skin color of the people there? No. Because of the lack of natural resources? nope. It's because they have a culture that accepts massive corruption that has impoverished the nation. Their cops are notorious rapists and shakedown artists. Ever see the inside of a Mexican prison? They're hellholes. Do you think maybe that indicates that their culture and values system needs some improvement? What makes a culture suddenly better when it walks accross a border? They speak a different language than we do. Not requiring immigrants to speak English is a mistake. Ever try to conduct business with someone in a different language? Not a problem with it's once or twice a year. But in a few years when 30 percent of the population has this problem it's going to be a huge problem for our children and based on my extensive reading of history, it's going to cause strife and possibly even revolution as cultures compete for dominance. Care to name any countries with vastly different cultures where there hasn't been a civil war? (don't say Switzerland, they live in distinctly segregated Cantons arranged by language) .

I don't feel that I should have to learn a 2nd language to survive in my own country. If that makes me a klansman in your book, so be it. But I must say that's a weak counter-argument. Besides, I'm not the one who is a member of groups like "la raza" (the race). Talk about your Hitlarian philosophies of racial superiority and destiny. I will gladly post links to articles on the virulently racist and anti gringo Hispanic groups that are promising a "reconquista" of much of the American southwest. And of the hopes of President Fox and others that dual US/Mexican citizenship will allow them a defacto takeover of those areas at the voting booth. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your righteous indignation. All that really matters is how much you can act morally superior to others, right?

2. You won't be paying someone over 40% of your daily income, silly, because your prices and those of every lco will rise accordingly to cover the increased costs. But only if everybody is forced to hire legally. Otherwise, those who break the law can undercut your prices and put you out of business. When gas prices go up do you not raise your prices?

And do the math, for just once, somebody DO THE MATH! Assume you have a helper and have to pay him $15/hour instead of $8 to get a motivated legal worker who is trained and speaks English. Possibly an "american" even. Gasp! You realize that there might just possibly be someone working at Home Depot or a Cingular Wireless store or a warehouse that would enjoy a pay raise to $15 hour in return for some harder physical labor? In an 8 hour day that's an extra $56 to solve our illegal immigration problem and find qualified workers. I know I could do at least 15 $30 lawns in that period. So $56 divided by 15 lawns equals $3.73 per lawn extra that you'd need to charge. That's only a 12.4% price increase, hardly earth shattering to the economy. And guess what, if the immigration laws were enforced, LEGAL immgrants would see their wages rise too! Who's trying to help them, really, me or you? Or is one of us just trying to enjoy a sense of moral superiority at their ultimate expense? Doubling wages does not in any way double prices.

Right now mass immigration is artifically lowering the price of labor, and hence the price of lawn maintenance and landscaping for consumers. This somewhat small to begin with price increase (see above example) will also partially be offset by the use of superior training and technology. How many of us have seen a crew of 6 low-skilled workers, possibly just picked up day laborers, with 21" mowers or belt drive wb's doing a property when 2 experienced, trained workers with ZTR's could do it just as fast? But when labor is cheap, the incentive to find and invest heavily in better technology isn't there. How many times do you see 6 guys with shovels doing work one man with a dingo type machine could do? But with labor at $8/hour, fewer are going to make the $25,000 investment. Mass immigration hurts per-capita productivity, the key to a nation's affluence. I can provide articles from economists showing how this works if you like.

3. It's 29% in the federal prisons I believe, and for a group that is said to be only about 4% of the population (illegal immigrants) that means they're statistically over 7 times more likely than a legal immigrant or citizen to be a criminal. Woops, gotcha there. Nobody said only illegal immigrants commit crimes, so your argument there is just silly. But I have provided PROOF to you that they're many times more likely to than US citizens.

4. Our American culture began with immigrants, yes. OVER 300 years ago! They also held slaves, burned witches at the stake, and shat in outhouses. Should we cleave slavishly to those traditions also? What logic dictates that what we WISH to have happen in one era has to happen in another? Shouldn't WE THE PEOPLE decide what goes on in our own country? Or is self-determination now racist?

And in more recent history, immigration had averaged more like 250,000 per year, not the current 1.5 million. And previous immigration waves were eager to assimilate and become "american" in their values and culture, while still retaining the traditions of their homelands. Current mass immigration policy is encouraging ghettos of unassimilated immigrants who are not willing to assimilate.

Bob Villa is Latino. AMERICAN in outlook and value set, intelligent, educated, polite, well-spoken, productive, pays taxes, obeys the law, has health insurance, isn't a burden on anyone. He's hardly the same as the 19 y/o uneducated non-English speaking rougue who hangs out at the convenience store and shouts sexual comments in pidgeon English at women as they pass, then shows up at the hospital emergency room for a sore throat because that's what his buddies tell him to do, as the stupid Americans will give you free health care! . Not being able to distingish between two distinctly different types of CHARACTER as opposed to mere race just makes you again look silly.

5. Yes, I drive an '03 Hemi. Hey, I even paid cash for it! Want to see pictures of my wife's new '03 Saab 9-3 that is also paid for? Or our new home? All of which was paid for legally, through hard work and sacrifice. Nobody had to give us squat. I mow lawns and my wife is a high school grad. You sound a tad envious. How many illegal immigrants will ever acheive this? One percent? I wonder if our new immigrant friends can be persuaded to vote for leaders who will promise them a cut of our wealth ( via "taxes on the dirty rich) in return for their votes? After all, if all America offers you is $8/hour and a worn out body by age 50, a promise of a "earned income credit" or "free healthcare" sounds pretty good, even if the rest of us have to pay for it. You're crazy if you think you can import an underclass of coolie labor to do your bidding, then deny them the good life they see all around them. Eventually they will rise up and TAKE what they can't get in the system. How is someone without english skills, no education, and few prospects for advancement going to acheive this lifestyle he covets? Studies have already shown that the children of immigrants are basically just as lazy and worthless as the rest of Americans. My hope is to see controlled immigration where you have to have a sound framework of education and language skills before you can enter. That way every immigrant becomes an asset to society, not just a temporary pawn to be used up then discarded when no longer needed, becoming a burden on society.

Creating a de-facto "caste system" where certain people prosper and the rest do their chores for them is a receipe for social revolution. If someone comes here, they should be properly prepared to prosper and assimilate or not come at all.

soonernation
01-17-2004, 03:47 PM
I have to tip my hat to you Bruce32, you have changed my outlook on some areas. Not all. But some. I still cant justify stamping an entire group of people as "not necessarily the brightest". Thats not fair. Also, paying 2 workers $15 an hour(doing the math) force each yard up to around $40-$45. My customers have a hard time parting with $30. I would think they'd rather do it themselves than pay that much for a simple cleanup. I do, however, think Its time I start wising up to the big picture. I was raised to not look at any person and stamp there intellect and intentions based upon where they are from. But, I think I took your comments about them personally and a little too far. I look at my surroundings and think thats how the rest of the country should look at it. But you seem to be well educated on the impact its making around the country. Its hard for me to say "your right" but you are. If they are going to come in to this country, they should have intentions of making it greater, not just using its resources and going back home. Thanks for giving me a somewhat broader view on whats going on in our business.

sgreanbean
01-17-2004, 03:52 PM
Just this mourning I took a ride up to the local fert supply store. on the way is a vacant lot were no less than a 100 guys are hanging out every mourning waiting for some one to pick them up to do their dirty work. When a vehicle pulls in these guys go crazy! they swarm the vehicle and start fighting over who gets to go! I didnt even pull in but they reconized they logo and came running over to my truck! Iwasnt even in the lot! but just driving by! The problem with this is, if people didnt come and grab these guys up, they wouldnt show!The funny thing is , the people who pick them up are usally the wealthy and lazy. The very ones who complain about their tax dollars being spent on them are the ones at the root of the problem. Like i said earlier, GET USED TO IT. Until people quit using them they are going to keep coming, they can get the fake SSN at any local market for about 25 bucks. Not to mention the fact that the boarder patrol is mainly hipanic. If there is a way to download a video on this forum let me know and ill get one of the lot that im speeking of

AztlanLC
01-17-2004, 05:04 PM
I alway try to saty away from this type of topics but for some reason I still felt for it, mainly because my background, many think it affects my judgment and maybe they're right well free speach.

The one mainly reason we came down here is call survival, 90% of the time.
It's real hard to leave behind our family without knowing if we will ever seeing them again, sure we all came here with the ilusion of having a better life but we still have to cross the border and many have died trying.

The reason many see us as a tread is because we don't have the education that many in this country here does, many of us didn't even finish middle school back there, not because we didn't wanted but because wansn't an option, people are use to live in this poor houses where you don't have a garbage pail and came down here and don't know how to behave, is not an excuse is just a fact, but many of us only do this for the first couple of moths or weeks being here.
We might be better at working in this field because we're use to, most of the mexican population or latino starts working at an early age and continue to do so for the rest of their lives.

Most of us just think about sending as much money as posible back to our country, no matter if we have to live in a room sharing it with other 4 people, not 10 like some say (haven't seing that myself) but mostly is because of the fact that we feel all the time like a person not welcome to this country (I know people have the reson for it) we are treted completely different than other persons I have seeing many people treat better a dog than a hispanic person, we can't no open a bank account, so where you think we should put our money? specially when most of us have a starving family overseas.

I was one of the few lucky ones that was given the oprtunity to become legal in this country, and from then on my perspective change completly, I now learned to respect this country, even tought mexico will alway be in my heart, and I'm 100% sure that's the same way the first generation of Irish, Italians and all of the people that formed this ountry felt back then.
I'm the first generation in my family, maybe my kids will someday have curosity to visit mexico, but I'm sure they'll have more love for this country than mine, then it will be my grandchildrens that will maybe just go there on vacations, does this mean all of them should not be allowed cause I came illegaly?

I have give this country far more than what I have taken and that's is the reason I don't feel any guilt, but the reason is bacause I was given the opotunity to become part of it, and bush proposal is just aiming at that, give the oportunity to those people that really deserves it, not just to all that say hey! I'm here give my green card, but to those that have no criminal record, those that have not taking advantage of the system or are willing to contribute back to, the result would be a better way to control the border, is not the same trying to catch 10 people than 2, cause I'm sure the number of people trying to cross the border would reduce by a lot.
The goverment would have the addres and fingerprints of all of the illegal immigrants, the persons seeking for help would benefit a lot, bacause it's true not many americans are willing to do this type of job and I don't blame'em tought they are just spoil, it doesn't matter if you pay'em twice as much I can pay a hispanic 15-20 per hour and still making profit out of it, but if I pay an american kid that much they only produce half of it for the same reason companies star paying low wages, but this is not what it's all about "LOW WAGES" it's about finding reliable help willing to stay for the whole season, willing to make up for those 3 days in a row of rain.

If you are a fireman, police or anybody who does this on the side I have high respect for you, but please don't compare your company to all of the rest, our need are greater than just eventual help, we need people that stays with us for long, we are willing to pay for it, but most of the cases we have turned down to the hispanic labor for strong reason, we have laerned trought many years and many employees later.

the scaper
01-17-2004, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AztlanLC
[B]



The reason many see us as a tread is because we don't have the education that many in this country here does, many of us didn't even finish middle school back there, not because we didn't wanted but because wansn't an option, people are use to live in this poor houses where you don't have a garbage pail and came down here and don't know how to behave, is not an excuse is just a fact, but many of us only do this for the first couple of moths or weeks being here.
We might be better at working in this field because we're use to, most of the mexican population or latino starts working at an early age and continue to do so for the rest of their lives.

why is mexico in this condition? i'm not trying to beat up on you, i really dont know. i've never been there. i can appreciate what you said though, thanks for posting it.

DFW Area Landscaper
01-17-2004, 09:05 PM
++++Do you think Mexico is such a bad place to live because of skin color of the people there? No. Because of the lack of natural resources? nope. It's because they have a culture that accepts massive corruption that has impoverished the nation. Their cops are notorious rapists and shakedown artists. Ever see the inside of a Mexican prison? They're hellholes. Do you think maybe that indicates that their culture and values system needs some improvement? What makes a culture suddenly better when it walks accross a border?++++

To classify every citizen of Mexico and the other central American countries as having values that are inferior to ours is something I simply canít subscribe to. I would venture to guess that the state of their prison system is more a function of wealth than values. Are you saying that every country on the planet with a lower standard of living than ours deserves to have that lower standard of living because of their values? Did you ever stop to think that the wealth we enjoy here in the United States could be more a function of our military might than our ďvaluesĒ?

As far as work ethics, or values, are concerned, Iíll take the work ethics of our south of the border amigos any day. Good enough for me.

++++ They speak a different language than we do. Not requiring immigrants to speak English is a mistake. Ever try to conduct business with someone in a different language? Not a problem with it's once or twice a year. But in a few years when 30 percent of the population has this problem it's going to be a huge problem for our children and based on my extensive reading of history, it's going to cause strife and possibly even revolution as cultures compete for dominance. Care to name any countries with vastly different cultures where there hasn't been a civil war? ++++

Isnít French the dominant language in areas of Canada? Isnít it true that different languages are spoken in France, Germany and England, yet all three are members of the European Union and all three share a form of currencyÖthe Euro? Do you really think that English speaking Americans will have a problem communicating with other Americans in a few years? When you speak of cultures competing for dominance, it's almost always centered around religion, not language. Isnít Christianity the dominant religion in both Mexico and the US?

++++ Assume you have a helper and have to pay him $15/hour instead of $8 to get a motivated legal worker who is trained and speaks EnglishÖ.Right now mass immigration is artifically lowering the price of labor, and hence the price of lawn maintenance and landscaping for consumers.++++

I have to run my business in the real world. If things were different, I might be able to charge more for my services and I might be able to pay my helpers more money. But thatís a fantasy. The real world is the world in which we have to compete and earn a living.

++++ It's 29% in the federal prisons I believe, and for a group that is said to be only about 4% of the population (illegal immigrants) that means they're statistically over 7 times more likely than a legal immigrant or citizen to be a criminal.++++

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason they turn to crime is because they canít find work? If they had green cards, they could find work, couldnít they? Is there a possibility that our police forces are more inclined to look for trouble with these people? Itís called racial profiling and it happens every day.

++++ Our American culture began with immigrants, yes. OVER 300 years ago! They also held slaves, burned witches at the stake, and shat in outhouses. Should we cleave slavishly to those traditions also? What logic dictates that what we WISH to have happen in one era has to happen in another? Shouldn't WE THE PEOPLE decide what goes on in our own country?++++

So we should just throw out all the ideas from 300 years ago too? Like freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, etc? My great grandfather migrated from Germany to America not 300 years ago, but more like 110 years ago. Immigration has always been a real part of America.

++++ Yes, I drive an '03 Hemi. Hey, I even paid cash for it! Want to see pictures of my wife's new '03 Saab 9-3 that is also paid for? Or our new home? All of which was paid for legally, through hard work and sacrifice.++++

Itís because you had an opportunity. Thatís all the Hispanic laborers want too.

++++ After all, if all America offers you is $8/hour and a worn out body by age 50, a promise of a "earned income credit" or "free healthcare" sounds pretty good, even if the rest of us have to pay for it. You're crazy if you think you can import an underclass of coolie labor to do your bidding, then deny them the good life they see all around them. Eventually they will rise up and TAKE what they can't get in the system.++++

That already happened a long time ago when the government rolled out social security. So far, it hasnít ďhit homeĒ with the American public yet, because each generation has managed to push their unsolvable problems onto the next generation. Sometime around 2020, itís projected, the social security program will no longer be able to push the problem forward onto future generations, and thatís when the fun really begins. By increasing the labor pool through immigration, the problem may be able to be postponed for yet another generationÖbut only through massive immigration of young workers who pay into the social security program. And that would only postpone the inevitable.

++++ Creating a de-facto "caste system" where certain people prosper and the rest do their chores for them is a receipe for social revolution.++++

Itís happened with every empire in history. America isnít much different. Seen the pay packages of corporate executives lately? Are these people 1,000 times more valuable to society than you and I? Theyíre paid that way.

Later,
DFW Area Landcaper

soonernation
01-18-2004, 12:12 AM
AztlanLC- Thanks for your post. Its good to hear from someone that has actually gone through some of the topics we're discussing. Good luck to you and your family.

AztlanLC
01-18-2004, 11:42 PM
And don't forget that many of the past generation went trought the same as I did.

Mexico is not as bad as sometimes even mysellf put it. Mexico is a great country that has everything to become a Fisrts world country, we have all of the recourses, we have oil, gold, silver, the best beaches around the world, dome of the best temperatures, we can grow almost any fruit or vegetable, we shouldn't be suffering at all.

The real problem is the goverment, maybe it's not as bad as castro or sadamm, but it stops the whole country to keep ahead, Mexico is so rich that it's being many centuries that everyone has being stealing from it, since the arrival of Spain when they took so much gold back to europe up to the latest former president, his brother Raul Gonzalez has 100 million of dollars in bank acoounts in other countries, how a president's brother can manage to save 100M Dollars in five years? The main reason is corruption, the people that really work hard doens't have any oportunities to have a decent life, many people will say Why not do something about it? Well after a while you see is a loose cause, many people get kill, dissaper, etc. also the lack of education plays another big factor, people don't like to pay taxes, people don't realize how bad is to trow garbage in the streets and so on.

Mexico someday will be capable of supporting all of their population, but that day is somehow far, there are many changes everyday but it will take some decades to see an improvement.

My way of thinking is that this country became so poweful is because of the willigness of all the people to immigrate here, some don't want to accept it but this country is made of immigrants, those people that could see a step further then the other, they came here and made this their adoptive home and worked so hard that nowdays many new generations don't have to live in a country where there's not many oportunities.

The new immigrants generation is different at some point but with the same ambitions, many can't make this their home cause daily there's someone making sure they don't feel that way, there always someone pointing the finger at them and blaming them for everything, how you expect this people to react? for those that says the jails are full of hispanic population please read a reliable source for information or at least visit the prisions, and also depends on the state as well.

If someone commits a crime, put him in jail, after that deport him, I'm for that, but don't judge all of the hispanic comunity for this person only.

Now let's go back to mow, landscape and make some profit, cause the economy still needs it.

the scaper
01-19-2004, 02:08 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AztlanLC
[B]
Mexico is a great country that has everything to become a Fisrts world country, we have all of the recourses, we have oil, gold, silver, the best beaches around the world, dome of the best temperatures, we can grow almost any fruit or vegetable, we shouldn't be suffering at all.

The real problem is the goverment, maybe it's not as bad as castro or sadamm, but it stops the whole country to keep ahead.

well, theres the problem folks, and there will the solution be found. it seems as though the good mexican citizens are at a loss of what to do so they just come here. anyone got any new/fresh ideas??

Southpaw
01-19-2004, 02:50 PM
Atzlan,

I respect you very much and I am glad you participated in this thread. I wish you continued success and prosperity.

To address several of the topics discussed in this long thread, let me first state my qualifications to do so:

For 12 years, I was an insurance premium auditor. I changed jobs several years ago, but I have been offered a position as an audit manager and I will take the job again and move my mowing business to a part time thing.

My wife is a CPA. Together, we are very qualifed to state the difference between contractors vs. employees and the legal vs. illegal labor issue.

The I-9 was developed mainly due to the influx of illegals in our country. It is very biased to assume that all of that labor is from Mexico. It is from a variety of countries, albeit, many are from Latin America. Two of my best friends are from Venezuala and Costa Rica. For someone to state that they will accept a falsified I-9, you are asking for trouble. It is the same thing as buying goods that you suspect are "hot" or stolen. You may say that you can't prove they were stolen, but having them in your possession is not safe either. If an item you now own is stolen, the authorities can take it from you no matter how much you paid for that item. It is the employer's responsibility to ensure that all information provided to them is valid. Also take note that an I-9 is filled out by an employee, not a subcontractor, which leads to my next point.

DFW,

Based on your descriptions of your labor force, they are indeed employees and not contractors. To pay them as contractors instead of employees is against the law. You are correct in assuming that it may not be a big deal (like driving 60 mph in a 55 mph zone), but it is still against the law nonetheless. In the same sense, hiring illegal labor whether it be immigration or child labor laws, it is still against the law. The governing authorities in these situations are Immigration, Labor, and the IRS.

Nelbuts,

I agree with you 100%. ( I am a WVU alumnus and love your new avatar). I too will turn in a lawbreaker and have done so. My conscience is clean. In a nutshell, I was hired by a stone mason to learn his business and be a junior partner. He also hired my wife to do his accounting. He made his first mistake by paying us as contractors instead of employees. Doing this forced us to pay self employment taxes even though we were not self employed. His next mistake was to try to force us to do illegal activities. He demanded that my wife "cook" his books and he demanded that I forge and alter bogus certificates of insurance. All three of us could have wound up in jail if we did this. My wife would also have lost her CPA license as well.

When my wife realized his books were bogus, she dismissed herself from his employment. This pissed him off badly. When I found out he falsified his work comp policy, I knew he had no coverage. He falsified it because he could not get the bids without it. He also demanded that I take some of the illegals to the flea market and help them get fake SS cards. I refused and again he was unhappy and tried to make our lives miserable.

So, I called the general contractor that was holding this bogus insurance certificate. I also called the Dept of Insurance and reported his fraud (again, against the law). My wife contacted the NC Dept. of Revenue and the IRS. This man is now in prison and I am at home sleeping soundly. Call me a jerk for doing this and I will do it again in a heartbeat.

brucec32
01-19-2004, 05:27 PM
Later,
DFW Area Landcaper [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that some of your replies are crafted to dodge the reality by selective quotation and distortions of what I said.

1. Nobody classified EVERY citizen of a south american country as being inferior, but to say that the situation in Juarez is as nice as it is accross the border is ridiculous. This type of refusal to face reality is a sign that I'm talking to someone more interested in justifying his own behavior rather than someone interested in finding the truth of the matter. The concept that everything is equal, just different, is called moral relativism and is just a trendy elitist concept that has been totally disproved when put to the test. Isam = Judiasm? Really? Go walk down the street in Mecca wearing a crucifix or star of David and tell them that.

Prisons in Mexico are hell holes because they are corrupt. Poverty doesn't make people administer beatings. They have more than enough wealth to properly feed prisoners. Poverty doesn't make judges accept bribes. Come on.

"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Corruption causes poverty. Cultures that don't value education create poverty. What highly educated poor cultures can you name? Populations who condone corruption by their governments get, in a macro sense of the words, what they deserve. Imagine if our forefathers had fled the country to escape British domination rather than stayed home, risking life and fortunes, and fought for what they believed in. If Mexico sucks because of their government, they need to get some cajones and do something about it rather than running away. Did Mexico lead the war against Hitler? No, in fact, many south american countries took in former Nazis in return for MONEY. How long would Americans tolerate policemen who only respond to calls if you pay them, or who steal your car themselves and make you pay them to get it back? Cultures vary. Ours is imperfect, but better. At some point you will change that if you change it too fast.

Your military= wealth comment sheds light on your political values . I suspect that you hate much about America and consider it evil and deserving of being brought down a notch or two. No wonder you don't mind being a part of its downfall. But just to blow another argument out of the water yet again (this is so easy) , how come we were prosperous in most of the years prior to WWII, when our standing army was one of the weakest in the world? Or the years before the Civil war, when the standing army was so tiny that even Robert E Lee was just a colonel? Did we just push the world around to get our way? We couldn't have defeated Luxemburg back then. Free trade and a system of law that protected that was the key, not military might.

You just made a blanket statement that you prefer the south of the border work ethic. Using your own logic, you just insulted every hard working American here with your stereotype. Did it ever occur to you that the more desperate a man is to survive the harder he will work? That people with "soft" lives have higher expectations of reward vs. work invested? And unless you plan on putting American workers on par with 3rd world laborers (and wages) your comparison doesn't make sense. Of COURSE someone struggling to survive will work harder. (for a while, then studies show they become just as lazy and fat as Americans) I can't defend many American workers. They're bad. But the solution isn't to import temporary help for that problem, because it's too big.

2. The European Union is a fractured joke that will implode on itself the first time any serious problem comes up. Don't you read the news? They can't agree on anything. And here's a history lesson for you, French seperatists in Quebec fought for years and killed many in a fight for dominance over language. Exactly what I'm predicting for here. You just made my point for me Professor.

3. The REAL WORLD is what some patriotic Americans are trying to preserve. I can see a train coming and jump out of the way. That doesn't mean I think the train is imaginary or that I shouldn't try to protect myself. A lot of Nazis claimed they were just going along becuase that was the reality in Germany in the 30's and 40's and they were doing the best they could. Nice principled attitude there. To paraphrase one of our founding fathers "better war in my time than in my child's". This means we should sacrifice some cash now to prevent our children and grandchildren from having to live a life we wouldn't want for them. Besides being lazy, I think too many Americans are also petty and selfish these days. They stand for nothing but the almighty dollar.

4. Of course! The poor babies just need jobs and they'll become law abiding! Mean Americans wouldn't hire them without a green card and that made them criminals. Pollyanna wasn't this naive.

5. More sophistry. Nobody said we should "throw all all ideas from 300 years ago". Another history lesson. You wanna name me any advanced nation that hasn't had mass migrations at one point? Ask England about the Norman Invasion. My point is that today it's accepted that the citizens of a nation have the right of self determination. Today WE decide who comes in and when, not the invaders.

6. There are about 1 billion poor people in India and Pakistan who deserve an opportunity too. And hundreds of millions more in China. Several Billion around the world in total live in horrible conditions. The question is, should we move them all here or should we expect that they solve their own problems and even with our help develop their own nations? Immigration as a way to "help the poor people" of the world is a lottery. A tiny fraction benefit and live in realative luxury, while the rest remain in abject poverty. How much of an opportunity is that? But to those arguments made by employers of illegal immigrants that "we're just trying to help people have a better life" I ask only "if you want to help so much, how come you're not paying higher wages to them than you'd have to pay Americans, not lower ones?"

7. Unfortunately your social security bailout proposition is a myth. The influx of funds from low paid workers would be minor and a temporary stay of execution for the system at best. And studies show that adding them to the rolls may actually collapse the system. Current propositions want retired immigrants to collect even if they haven't met minimum contribution timeframes(while Americans do!) See Michele Malkin's last column on this very topic. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20040107.shtml

But before you start fitting her for a Klan hood too, note that she's a legal asian immigrant herself.

8. I can't argue that the pay scales aren't wacky, but what we definitely DON'T need in America is more poor people. Sentimental images and fantasies aside, poor people are more likely to be problems that assets to a society. And the evil rich some hate so much turn out to be more law abiding and self sufficient. They may be annoying, but you can't say the prisons are full of Harvard grads and the welfare rolls full of corporate CEO's.

By creating a strong middle class society, where even manual laborers can earn a good living and lead a responsible life, some of your ideas (like lower crime resulting from less poverty) might actually come about. But a steady flow of cheap labor only kicks the ladder out from under American workers at exactly the point in history when their services are becoming rare and hence more highly valued. How unfair is that? Or does anyone care anymore about anything other than getting enough cash for that new big screen TV?

TotalCareSolutions
01-21-2004, 01:03 AM
Bruce! I was going to say that...

Franchi Contractors
01-21-2004, 02:05 AM
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sgreanbean
01-21-2004, 10:23 AM
hey franchi, how do you mow grass with all of that H.E.?

PROCUT1
01-21-2004, 11:08 AM
Lets put this in a nutshell.... March 15th i need 18 workers. Pay rate for mowers etc... is 8.00 per hr starting. Drivers start at 10.00. Send me all those young americans that want to work...If even half of them stay with me for 2 months into the season. Ill give you a $1,000. Been there , done that. I cant expand and grow my business without a rock solid dependable workforce behind me.

brucec32
01-22-2004, 02:56 PM
"The High Price of Cheap Labor"

http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy/dunphy200401220906.asp

brucec32
01-22-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by PROCUT1
Lets put this in a nutshell.... March 15th i need 18 workers. Pay rate for mowers etc... is 8.00 per hr starting. Drivers start at 10.00. Send me all those young americans that want to work...If even half of them stay with me for 2 months into the season. Ill give you a $1,000. Been there , done that. I cant expand and grow my business without a rock solid dependable workforce behind me.

You just made my point for me. Those pay rates are too low to attract qualified legal labor/Americans. Just because YOU arbitrarily decide that's what you WANT to pay, doesn't matter. It's what supply vs. demand decides that counts. And today, that isn't enough.

I've gone into detail before and provided links for anyone willing to learn, but I suspect that some just don't want to be bothered with the truth.

It seems as if you're saying you really don't give a damn about the future of the country as long as you get your workers on March 15th so you can make money easily. I'm sure the ghosts of the guys who died at Normandy, Bataan, Bastogne, and Iwo Jima are really proud of you right now. They went through horror and spent years away from home. You're being asked to simply abide by the law in a time of affluence and ease and can't even do that. I wonder how many statues they'll erect one day honoring landscapers who got the job done at the low bid price?

AztlanLC
01-22-2004, 04:17 PM
Well with an open mind sincer you are posting many links to sources that I trust the same as the wether channel, here is one for all you that keep saying we are here only to drain the economy.

It's directly from the INS website
Soldier (http://uscis.gov/graphics/publicaffairs/AmericanDream.pdf)

bastalker
01-22-2004, 04:56 PM
OK Fellas....I read half this book, started on the second half. Jus way to much readin....

Its funny, mexicans have been pourin into the country for years!!
Why because they can get jobs, an send money home to momma.
The law if yer born in the U.S. Well then yer an American....

I bet if huge companies, corporations, employers, etc... would stop hirin em, then they wouldn't be in such a hurry to get over here.

I grew up in Texas, and I can tell ya, I've seen the houses these illigals live in. Millionaire,with his million acre estate... Bigger than my house!

Now if all these mexicans runnin across the piece of barbed wire we have for a border, couldnt get any work. I dont think they would camp out in the desert to long waitin for word on any. He would jus go back an tell hecter, "hey man, there aint nothin for work over there man, don waste yer time man".

Hell, might even drop the unemployment rate a little...

PROCUT1
01-22-2004, 07:12 PM
So where do I get the money to pay the higher rates?....Raise my prices? Price myself out of the market so that I cant compete with the the other companies in my area? Not to mention the lower level of productivity I would be getting out of these well paid workers Not to mention cutting my workday if theyre tired from being out all night, or its drizzlin, or its too hot, or its too cold, or any other reason that they come up with not to work. Im not trying to be un-American here. I would love to hire American workers, and my guys are legal by the way, but if Im going to be productive and competitive I have to run my business by the numbers and the budget. If Im doing x amount in revenue, that allows for x% to be allocated for payroll. As a manager I have to get the work done paying out within that percentage. Its already a fixed number, If I go over that number I go out of business.

AztlanLC
01-22-2004, 07:19 PM
Like I stated before, if you have no idea what is like having employees, please don't tell us this isn't true, don't say "sure with those wages no american guy will work for you" no matter how much money you pay they just don't want this type of job period.

I'm not saying go out and look for ilegal workesr, I'm saying accept the fact that this industry needs latino people because they have prove themself to be the right person for this job, they're not the only ones tough, cause once in a while you can still find a good american worker.

brucec32
01-27-2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by PROCUT1
So where do I get the money to pay the higher rates?....Raise my prices? Price myself out of the market so that I cant compete with the the other companies in my area? Not to mention the lower level of productivity I would be getting out of these well paid workers Not to mention cutting my workday if theyre tired from being out all night, or its drizzlin, or its too hot, or its too cold, or any other reason that they come up with not to work. Im not trying to be un-American here. I would love to hire American workers, and my guys are legal by the way, but if Im going to be productive and competitive I have to run my business by the numbers and the budget. If Im doing x amount in revenue, that allows for x% to be allocated for payroll. As a manager I have to get the work done paying out within that percentage. Its already a fixed number, If I go over that number I go out of business.

Do any of you actually READ and comprehend? "price myself out of the market"??? What? Ok, slowly....just for you. If EVERYBODY HAS TO OBEY THE LAW, THEN EVERYBODY HAS THE SAME COSTS AS YOU AND CAN'T UNDERBID YOU. Get it?

"lower level of productivity". Boo hoo! I can't find any desperate workers to exploit. No fair! What says YOU get to set the productivity of legal workers based on what you can get desperate people from other countries to do? And did it ever occur to you that if wages were raised to an attractive level (I don't see you working for $8/hour, does that make you lazy?) you might actually.....gasp....find people who are hard working to work for you?

Economics fact: Labor shortages are impossible. Only shortages of people willing to work at the wage being offered.

Solution: raise wages.

Did you read any of the above? We are SUBSIDIZING people like yourself who pay low wages to immigrant workers in other ways. Hence the column "The high cost of cheap labor" ...get it?

I'm still waiting to hear a moral argument in favor of mass immigration. And spare me the "I'm helping them" bulls$$$. If that was the case you'd be paying them more, not less, than you'd have to pay an American to do the work.

The arguments are all basically. "I want my money, that makes it right".

brucec32
01-27-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by AztlanLC
Well with an open mind sincer you are posting many links to sources that I trust the same as the wether channel, here is one for all you that keep saying we are here only to drain the economy.

It's directly from the INS website
Soldier (http://uscis.gov/graphics/publicaffairs/AmericanDream.pdf)

More sophistry. I never said you "are all here only to drain the economy". But are you saying the good folks who keep the welfare rolls in California are lying?

I could go on, but I think you're not objective on the matter. You, like the native born Americans here, want what you want, because it suits you. You feel for your people and want them to be able to find a better life. Others want cheap labor so they can make money easier. I'm comfortable and live a cushy life. I can make a decent living even with things the way they are, because I fill a niche' market that is pretty much immune so far to it. I have no children nor plans to have any. I don't have a particularly selfish interest here. I am simply patriotic enough to know that at the current rate "America" won't be "America" in 20 years, and not because of skin color. And the satisfaction of saying "I told you so" to foolish people who saw it coming and ignored the problem will be cold comfort indeed.

PROCUT1
01-29-2004, 06:08 PM
So where do I get the money to pay the higher rates?....

Answer that question and Im ready for my American crew.

PROCUT1
01-29-2004, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
[order?++++


I have to run my business in the real world. If things were different, I might be able to charge more for my services and I might be able to pay my helpers more money. But thatís a fantasy. The real world is the world in which we have to compete and earn a living.


Itís happened with every empire in history. America isnít much different. Seen the pay packages of corporate executives lately? Are these people 1,000 times more valuable to society than you and I? Theyíre paid that way.



EXACTLY MY POINT

Seems Dfw understands the real issues and can see this from both side and put it into reality.

AztlanLC
01-29-2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by brucec32
Others want cheap labor so they can make money easier.

No we don't want cheap labor, we want reliable and dependable labor, I have seen companies paying $20 and up and even at that rate their workers still dont like this field.

Lawn maintenance most of the times is seeing as a low end job, so people want to be a lawyer, doctors, etc. they don't want to push a wheel barrow, spread mulch, work at 100ļ, work some sundays, work late, and so on, no matter how much you pay them, or actually how much you can pay'em. I know for a fact that I can't pay more then 40% of what they produce, and also know that my average rates are $60 per hour.

How much should we pay?

texedge
01-29-2004, 09:19 PM
I have had a couple of guys showing up with Taxpayer Identification Numbers (TIN's). Apparently it takes about a year to acquire one from the IRS using a Form W-7 (This is what the guys told me).

No, this does not make those workers "legal" but it makes it possible to send them a 1099 or withhold payroll taxes using their TIN's. It is my understanding that they will not, however, qualify for Social Security or Medicare, but heck, they seem to get free medical treatment here anyways and go back South to retire. The IRS cares not about the INS. The IRS just wants it's dinero.

My accountant seems satisfied with the TIN's. So far.

Also, I would strongly recommend running your business as cleanly as possible as soon as possible. If you hire "illegals" you will tend to only attract more, so break your habits ASAP and you will be happier in the long run! This means insurance, labor, taxes, etc. It may take years, but if you never start, you'll never get there.

If you currently have "illegals", you may want to look into the W-7 or ask an accountant - one that advocates hiring only guys with good numbers!

prizeprop
02-20-2004, 02:05 PM
MY ACCOUNTANT SAID THAT IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO USE THE W-7 ROUTE NOW. HE COULD BE WRONG. ANYONE HAVE AN EMPLOYEE GET A TAX ID # VIA THE W-7 FORM LATELY.(POST 9-11)