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JB1LNDSCPR
01-18-2004, 06:40 PM
I am looking for some equipment and i am not sure if the big jump in price is worth the money for a rider when you can ride on a sulky.

lawnman_scott
01-18-2004, 07:32 PM
Try it and see. Its worth it.

Cutters Lawn Care
01-18-2004, 07:33 PM
I agree with Scott. Riders are much more productive.

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 07:39 PM
''Riders are more productive''

Thats funny,seems like every one else seems to preach w.b. Just wondering because i will be getting a new mower next month.
And dont want to get a w.b. and then say **** i should have bought a ztr.

Avery
01-18-2004, 07:39 PM
We use to have walkbehinds. Did not take long to figure out that Z's are much more productive. Bunch of times we will unload beside another LCO using walkbehinds. They are always sweaty and tired looking. As we are loading to head to the next job they are not even half way through with their job. You think they would figure it out by watching us beat them week after week! :)

sildoc
01-18-2004, 07:39 PM
It all depends on your properties. I cant even get a 48 on a quarter of my properties. Why have a rider that Is more productive on big properties and less productive on small. Out of the ones I can get a 52" and up they have hills and I cant justify the price to roll a 8000 machine. For me a 36 is perfect untill I have a min of 10 properties (residential or commercial) that can improve my time by at least 15 hours per month. That would justify a rider.

It is personal preferance and what your properties dictate. buy what will make you the most money.

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 07:45 PM
Well i guess that even if they are just the little bit slower i like Averys point. Ride it babby and dont be dog tired every day.
Maybe i will get a new ztr this year and a used w.b. for smaller stuff next year.Sounds like a good combo to me.

Cutters Lawn Care
01-18-2004, 07:47 PM
I ditto what Avery said. Much more productive and at the end of the day your not totally exhausted.

MudslinginFX4
01-18-2004, 07:47 PM
Most of the time my guys perfer wb's over riders which is fine with me becuase it is a lot less expensive. We use riders the most during the hot heat of summer when we are having those 100 degree days. I don't have enough riders for everyone so they have to alternate who uses them.

PCLL
01-18-2004, 07:54 PM
it all depends on the jobs you have, personally i don't like ztrs because they tend to slide on an incline. also, i think ztrs are for old folks who don't have the strength us younger guys do.

Cutters Lawn Care
01-18-2004, 07:59 PM
I like to work smarter not harder.

PLI1
01-18-2004, 08:00 PM
We use riders wherever we can. In areas where we can't, we use walk behinds. Time is $

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 08:07 PM
PCLL
Look at the thread called learn from me...23 and falling apart.
You may change that idea.''Work smarter not harder''.YES,YES,YES

if a w.b. is way more efficient for what you are doing use it, but not just to show off.You dont have to prove any thing to us.

PCLL
01-18-2004, 08:10 PM
I used a Viper for the entire summer last season, I wasn't pleased. Currently I'm back to the WB, I am much more satisfied with it. Different strokes I suppose.

DennisF
01-18-2004, 08:48 PM
To be productive and have the ability to service all types of lawns you need both a walk behind and a ZTR. The ZTR's will cover much more area in a shorter period of time. The WB is necessary on steep slopes and smaller lots. I have some properties that I can't use the Z because it would be too dangerous (roll-over hazard) to operate. I also have accounts that the ZTR can do in half the time that the WB can do it in. If you can only afford to buy one then get the ZTR. Down the road when you get more accounts you can get a WB for back-up.

JB1LNDSCPR
01-18-2004, 09:00 PM
Thanks Everyone for your advice i am just worried that the $8500 for a rider is a lot of money. of course if i knew the right amount to charge i probably could pay it off in a couple months. I have asked this question before but i still don't get how much to charge. I am worried i am to cheap. Say a lawn has average amounts of trimming 10-15 minutes and about 15-20 minutes mowing how much to charge. with a 52" Mower

Cutters Lawn Care
01-18-2004, 09:02 PM
I wouldn't drop gate for less than $35

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 09:03 PM
What kind of ztr are talking about for $8500 a 61 Exmark?

I will do a small mow-blo-go for $25 most is $30

PCLL is right

p.s PCll from were in Dixe are we talkin.

PCLL
01-18-2004, 09:05 PM
It is a lot of money, especially for someone starting out. I would suggest you go and buy a belt-driven walk-behind for a third of what you'll pay for the ztr. Then, save up and make the jump into a 8k mower.

JB1LNDSCPR
01-18-2004, 09:05 PM
a 61" Toro Z master

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 09:08 PM
How big is the props you are using that for.

JB1LNDSCPR
01-18-2004, 09:10 PM
Thats what i was trying to determine PCLL Thanks.

TJLC
01-18-2004, 09:15 PM
Only YOU can decide what suits YOU best. Demo some ztr's and w/b's on YOUR properties and then YOU can decide what is best for YOUR particular situation. I'm not saying, not to listen to advise given here, but in the end, it's YOUR money being spent. Good luck.

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 09:21 PM
Hey you talk about demoing on you land with new stuff, the dealers here wont let you out of sight without some money.Whats-up with that?

DennisF
01-18-2004, 09:22 PM
Pricing is determined by what the market will allow in your area. Some people say that $1 per minute is an attainable figure, but I doubt that very many of them are getting that much. In the area of Florida that I service there are a lot of lawn services companies operating and it has an effect on pricing. Most lawns that I service are 10,000-12,000 SF. I can mow, trim, edge and clean-up most of them in about 30 minutes (solo). Prices are $20-$25 for a typical account. Some of the low-ball operators are charging $18-$20 for the same accounts. I would strike up a conversation with a local LCO in your area and try to get some idea of the pricing structure that exists. That's the best source for pricing info. Good Luck.

Avery
01-18-2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Eric 1
Hey you talk about demoing on you land with new stuff, the dealers here wont let you out of sight without some money.Whats-up with that?

I would not deal with them. Here they will let you demo whatever you want. They will even deliver it and pick it up. Just like with a vehicle there is no way I would buy a piece of equipment w/o trying it out.

2k1yzfr1
01-18-2004, 09:45 PM
Those of you that are "pro ztr" what rider have you found to be the best on smaller residentials (under 15k). I have a 44" exmark lazer z hp and think it is the best for the smaller yards.....but at the same time I hate it's size for the 1+ acre fields. Is there much time to save with going to a 52" from a 44" rider on the smaller stuff??

Eric 1
01-18-2004, 09:48 PM
Avery, you can demo but only on their property.Makes it hard to tell how it will preform in real life situations

SHOW ME STATE RIDER
01-18-2004, 10:00 PM
I use a 52 Z for 75% of my residental. Use the walkbehinds when it gets to wet. I see guys all the time with Z on the trailer and their using their walkbehinds. I don't get it. Maybe the are just afraid or not aware of what these awesome machines can do. Almost want to stop and ask why? but just keep driving and laughing to the next stop.

2k1yzfr1
01-18-2004, 10:06 PM
I use my 44" rider 80% of the time it's just some St augustine yards grow so damn fast here that if I don't mulch them I will be running over the clippings for 30 mins trying to chop them up. It's much easier and faster to jump behind the 36" exmark with a mulch kit and run over the yard. What 52" do you have?? Is a 23HP enough for a 52"?? I wish my 44" had the 20 Kohler so I could put the mulching kit on it.

Cut 2 Please
01-18-2004, 10:32 PM
I have both a ZTR and a WB. While yes I can do the properties that I can get my 61" ZTR on much faster, the conditions must also be right for it. In this area the soil stays wet for an extended period of time after a heavy rain. I have found that ZTR's have more of a tendancy to leave ruts do to there weight. With a WB I do not have to wait nearly as long to cut after a rain storm. Time is money.
Several people in this thread have refered to what size mower is the best. This is a problem that has been a big issue to me this past year. I did a wide variety of properties, commercial and residential, this past year and feel I wasted a good bit of time swapping between different mowers. This past season I had bought a brand new walker w/42" GHS deck. This would allow me to get through all the gates that were on my route but took up way to much time in wide open areas. Also much time and money was wasted on bagging. I found a used 52" mulch deck for the Walker and started swapping decks depending on which properties I could get a 52" deck through the gates. Once again this took way to much time. It did help in convincing many of my clients that mulching properly looked just as good as bagging.
At the end of the season I decided that I had worked way to long and hard for the money that I had made this year. I decided to make some changes in the way I was doing things. I sold my Walker and bought an Exmark TTHP w/mulch kit. I also took a mulch kit for a 60" Exmark and modified it to fit my 61" Ferris. For next year I will not do any bagging or side discharge. Mulch only. I have also done away with all my commercial properties because the prices in this area have been driven way to low. I am going back to a solo opperation because I know that I will show up to work. I have set bounderies on the areas that I will service. No more than 3 miles from the house to reduce wasted drive time. No every other week cuts. Only once a week cuts because every 2 weeks creates to much growth for mulching.
I only need 2 more properties and my route will be full for next season. I have done all the math and I will be able to make the same money as last year and almost have as much work.
Hope my experience helps others.

2k1yzfr1
01-18-2004, 10:41 PM
Cut2please

How many yards are you now doing by yourself??

Avery
01-18-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Eric 1
Avery, you can demo but only on their property.Makes it hard to tell how it will preform in real life situations

I agree. A demo on their property is not a demo IMO. They will let you have a machine for several days here to see if you like it. Guess every dealer does things a little different. After hearing some of the stories here I see why my dealer is the top ranked Toro dealer in the east. Very easy to work with.

olderthandirt
01-18-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by PCLL
it all depends on the jobs you have, personally i don't like ztrs because they tend to slide on an incline. also, i think ztrs are for old folks who don't have the strength us younger guys do.

Oh I don't know about not having the strength but we sure seem to have more sense. We figured out looooooooong ago that its easier to ride than walk. LMAO


Mac:D

proenterprises
01-18-2004, 11:12 PM
i would suggest starting out with a wb until you really get a feel for what ytou are going to need. it is hard to say wether a zero rider will be the best for you. different machien sperform in different ways on different props as well as being based on conditions.

olderthandirt
01-18-2004, 11:20 PM
Everything said is true but if you buy a Z for $8500 and use it a couple of yrs its still going to be worth a lot more jack than a WB. Of course if you can't use it it would be a waste of $$$$

Mac

Cut 2 Please
01-18-2004, 11:25 PM
I am going to do twenty properties a week to start with. I am a firefighter here and work 24 hrs on and 48 hrs off. This leaves me w/3days to cut if I want to be able to enjoy my weekends. I also go to school in the evenings so I can get my paramedic license. I will graduate in Sept. Next year I will take on a more but for now I do not want to overload my self and have the quality of my work suffer. If I find that I am able I will take on a few more this year but I am going to play it safe for now.

PaulJ
01-19-2004, 01:59 AM
How many of you that have ZTRS (and are recommending them as a first mower) do not also have a walk behind, at least for a few properties or a helper? I think there are very few operations that are %100 riders. So start with the WB and add the ztr when your volume warrants it. there will probably always be a need for a WB.

Personally, I need one machine to do it all, (can't afford to have one just sitting) I have a high horsepower, fast 48" walkbehind with a sulky. It can go on the small lawns and can also do very well on the wide open large lawns. I would put it against any 48" out there. If I had all large open properties I might feel different but for a wide variety of lawns I like the WB with a sulky.

Fareway Lawncare
01-19-2004, 10:35 AM
Walk w/sulky, much too long for most smaller landscaped areas.

Walks w/out sulky's have their place...riders have their place. Simple test...if you have to ride behind your Walk most times to be productive it's time for a rider or Stander.

John Gamba
01-19-2004, 10:55 AM
ULTIMATE ive got a question for you.

If i was to put controls on this rider, controls that would able you to walk behind it, what would be your thought on it?
John

Avery
01-19-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by PaulJ
How many of you that have ZTRS (and are recommending them as a first mower) do not also have a walk behind, at least for a few properties or a helper? I think there are very few operations that are %100 riders. So start with the WB and add the ztr when your volume warrants it. there will probably always be a need for a WB.

Personally, I need one machine to do it all, (can't afford to have one just sitting) I have a high horsepower, fast 48" walkbehind with a sulky. It can go on the small lawns and can also do very well on the wide open large lawns. I would put it against any 48" out there. If I had all large open properties I might feel different but for a wide variety of lawns I like the WB with a sulky.

We have one walk behind left. It has not been out of the shop in 3 years. 100% riders.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-19-2004, 12:03 PM
I heard some one say that the riders are little faster that’s a joke they are allot faster. The exmark lazer 27 hp like I use is good for 10 mile per hour cutting speeds. The walk behinds claim 6-7 but rarely see more then 5 plus they typically have smaller decks. Iv hear one guy had a 72 wb but to date IV not seen it. My experience has shown me that a 60-inch lazer bagging the lawn was 3 times faster then a 48 in belt wb letting the clippings fly and made a much smaller mess as well. I happen to own both a wb and a lazer. And of 65 accounts on my list I have a mere 2 that require the wb I also have 6 that require a push mower the wb can’t fit. We do use the wb a little bit more then that i.e. when my partner finishes the trimming and there is still more to do but it isn’t what I would call a moneymaker.

There’s some talk about steep hills as well that is true I wont take a lazer on anything over 45 degrees that 15 they recommend is so conservative it isn’t funny. One thing you here complaints about is the deck roller wheels gouging on inclines truth is they can even gouge on flat ground and that’s why they invented the foot pedal to lift the deck try it when your making your turns it all but eliminates gouges.

One thing that takes getting use to is the turns them self while the ZTR can make zero turns this should not be done as it does damage the lawn and in the course of a season your have turn around marks with no grass if you try this. A 3-point turn works best and all but eliminates the damage caused from turning. When you learn your machine and I mean master it I have 10 years on walk behinds both belt and hydro both bagging and letting it fly I would consider myself an expert on walk behinds I happen to have 4 years some 2000 hours and ZTRS and here too I would consider myself an expert. There is no comparison and when you do get good on the ZTR a lot of things you thought it could not do your find it not only does but it does a better job as well.

As for pricing lawns there is no difference in pricing with a push mower {if a larger would of fit} a walk behind of a 72 inch 33 hp monster ZTR the price is always what the lawn is worth not the equipment you happen to own if its a 30 dollar cut then it is still a 30 dollar cut with the ZTR the difference is instead of 30 mins your now done in 15 you tell me if that isn’t worth the extra price only way it isn’t is if your to small and don’t have the work. If you have 3 days off a week from lack of work then you do not need a ZTR if you on the other hand can barely finish your lawns and your landscaping projects then the time savings the ZTR makes you is well worth its cost it may save you a full days cutting on a 3 day list. Fill that with a 1000-dollar install and in 8 weeks you’ve paid for the mower.

olderthandirt
01-19-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by PaulJ
How many of you that have ZTRS (and are recommending them as a first mower) do not also have a walk behind, at least for a few properties or a helper? I think there are very few operations that are %100 riders. So start with the WB and add the ztr when your volume warrants it. there will probably always be a need for a WB.

Personally, I need one machine to do it all, (can't afford to have one just sitting) I have a high horsepower, fast 48" walkbehind with a sulky. It can go on the small lawns and can also do very well on the wide open large lawns. I would put it against any 48" out there. If I had all large open properties I might feel different but for a wide variety of lawns I like the WB with a sulky.


Just a 21 to clean areas the Z won't fit

Mac

dishboy
01-19-2004, 02:11 PM
I am walking now but I sure can't wait to ride , I know it is going to do wonders for my sex life and maybe I won't be such a grumpy a$$ to my kids when I walk in the door and they want something of me but I need to sit down and rest my dogs. As far as making me more money that would be nice also so hey I can spend more money on the kids, so I am not sure where this will end up but at my age I want to save my energy for things I want to do, not for cutting grass.

PaulJ
01-19-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Walk w/sulky, much too long for most smaller landscaped areas.

Walks w/out sulky's have their place...riders have their place. Simple test...if you have to ride behind your Walk most times to be productive it's time for a rider or Stander.

NOT!!!

In a tight spot the sulky can come off. Try takeing the back 1' off of you rider. Try wakling beside a rider on a slope. The right walkbehind w/sulky can go just as fast as a rider wiht the same size deck. The shorter the machine the rougher the ride.

PaulJ
01-19-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Avery
We have one walk behind left. It has not been out of the shop in 3 years. 100% riders.

Can I ask what type of properties you service?
Are the 3000 to 30000+ sq ft residentials?
just wondering.

DennisF
01-19-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by PaulJ
NOT!!!

In a tight spot the sulky can come off. Try takeing the back 1' off of you rider. Try wakling beside a rider on a slope. The right walkbehind w/sulky can go just as fast as a rider wiht the same size deck. The shorter the machine the rougher the ride.


Unless your sulky has a suspension system built into it... the ride will be far rougher on it than the ride of a ZTR. You can also get suspended seat systems for ZTR's which make the ride much more tolerable. For pure mowing speed nothing can beat a ZTR. For steep slopes and postage stamp lots..a WB can't be beat.

rodfather
01-19-2004, 02:59 PM
Z more productive? Nope.
Travels faster? Yes.
That makes it more productive? Nope.
Can a Z go where a WB can? Nope.
Is there less trimming with a Z vs. a WB? Nope
Can a Z hold a slope as well as a WB? Nope.

I rest my case for the time being...btw, I own several of each.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-19-2004, 03:18 PM
rodfather

Z more productive? Nope. absolutely more productive better to have one guy doing the work of 2-3.

Travels faster? Yes. they go much faster.

That makes it more productive? Nope. why wouldn’t that make them more productive your cutting more lawn in less time. And they give a better cut much better blade tip speeds.

Can a Z go where a WB can? Nope. you got me here but they are a lot less limited then most claim and they are not nearly as bad on slopes as some claim.

Is there less trimming with a Z vs. a WB? Nope why would there be if anything you got a few more inch’s to trim since you are going faster it is a good idea to keep a farther distance for safety but it still is easily cut in a single pass with a string trimmer.

Can a Z hold a slope as well as a WB? Nope. this you are right about they can go up to 60 degrees no way a rider can and you can get in gates that rides don’t fit which is why I think you need wbs but no way does it equal or replace the ZTR its like pulling a tarp out of a gated back yard when you would rather use your leaf plow but it wont fit its just part of the job.

Avery
01-19-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by PaulJ
Can I ask what type of properties you service?
Are the 3000 to 30000+ sq ft residentials?
just wondering.

Big ones. All commercial and HOA's. I only have a pic. of one of the medium sized ones.

rodfather
01-19-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
rodfather

Z more productive? Nope. absolutely more productive better to have one guy doing the work of 2-3.

1 Z does the work of 2-3 WB's...I find that painfully hard to believe other than this is due to operator skill (ie, lack of) or enthusiasm for his work duties.

Travels faster? Yes. they go much faster.

Sure, from the trailer to the beginning of the lawn area. How much more actually cutting though?

That makes it more productive? Nope. why wouldn’t that make them more productive your cutting more lawn in less time. And they give a better cut much better blade tip speeds.

Says who? Are you sayingmy 61 inch Ferris WBs, with a 23 hp kawi has less blade tip speed than my Ferris 61 inch Z's with the same engine?

Can a Z go where a WB can? Nope. you got me here but they are a lot less limited then most claim and they are not nearly as bad on slopes as some claim.

Is there less trimming with a Z vs. a WB? Nope why would there be if anything you got a few more inch’s to trim since you are going faster it is a good idea to keep a farther distance for safety but it still is easily cut in a single pass with a string trimmer.

A WB can get in closer is what I mean btw.

Can a Z hold a slope as well as a WB? Nope. this you are right about they can go up to 60 degrees no way a rider can and you can get in gates that rides don’t fit which is why I think you need wbs but no way does it equal or replace the ZTR its like pulling a tarp out of a gated back yard when you would rather use your leaf plow but it wont fit its just part of the job.

Fareway Lawncare
01-19-2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
ive got a question for you.

If i was to put controls on this rider, controls that would able you to walk behind it, what would be your thought on it?
John

If you're talking about having an alternate set of controls that would enable you to walk behind that Lazer, my thought would be you're Nutz.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-19-2004, 07:00 PM
Rod there’s no arguing it I know what I know and you know what you know I personally feel your wrong and you think that I am. I will say this though you have one over powered wb and one underpowered ZTR in your example. And yes IV seen first hand the speed difference with my lazer over my metro and it isn’t even funny. The wb you described is the high end of the scale in cost and very close to a ZTR price at which point I would have to get the ZTR. Something I doubt you can argue is bagging systems for wbs vs ZTRs.

John Gamba
01-19-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
If you're talking about having an alternate set of controls that would enable you to walk behind that Lazer, my thought would be you're Nutz.

Just what i thought. I'm going to try it!
John

FrankenScagMachines
01-19-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
Just what i thought. I'm going to try it!
John
Oh Boy! I gotta see this! It'll be a Gambamark :p :) ;)

John Gamba
01-20-2004, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Oh Boy! I gotta see this! It'll be a Gambamark :p :) ;)

Good eric you chimed in:D
I lost alot of the emails you sent because of a virus or something.
I'm going to work on a control system that you can walk behind a riding mower.
Its looks easy to do. If you were going to market with it , it would be a little more effort.
I will send you the plans in a day or two.
John

FrankenScagMachines
01-20-2004, 10:17 AM
John, you're right, shouldn't be too hard. Will this be like the Rich Convertible mowers where you can either ride or walk or will it just be a dedicated walk? If a dedicated walk, whats the advantage over a TT? Can’t wait to see it. In case you lost it, my email address is eric@cuttingedgelawncare.biz
Talk to you soon!
:D :)

craigs lawncare
01-20-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
Rod there’s no arguing it I know what I know and you know what you know I personally feel your wrong and you think that I am. I will say this though you have one over powered wb and one underpowered ZTR in your example. And yes IV seen first hand the speed difference with my lazer over my metro and it isn’t even funny. The wb you described is the high end of the scale in cost and very close to a ZTR price at which point I would have to get the ZTR. Something I doubt you can argue is bagging systems for wbs vs ZTRs.

Kelly's Landscaping,

Forget it man, I argued with some people on this forum a few months ago weather a Z is faster than a walk-behind. Trying to explain this to them is pointless. Some people are just set in their ways, there is no other explanation to their logic. They proved this when, as an example, Rodfather said a Z was not as productive as a walk-behind.
A good illustration that shows a Z is often almost twice the speed of a walk-behind is the gravely web site. Go to www.gravely.com and look at the differences in the amount of grass cut per hour by each comparable machine. Unless of course you think gravely is distorting the facts and its an evil plot to rid the mowing world of walk-behinds.

:D

Craig

rodfather
01-20-2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Kelly's Landscaping,

Forget it man, I argued with some people on this forum a few months ago weather a Z is faster than a walk-behind. Trying to explain this to them is pointless. Some people are just set in their ways, there is no other explanation to their logic. They proved this when, as an example, Rodfather said a Z was not as productive as a walk-behind.
A good illustration that shows a Z is often almost twice the speed of a walk-behind is the gravely web site. Go to www.gravely.com and look at the differences in the amount of grass cut per hour by each comparable machine. Unless of course you think gravely is distorting the facts and its an evil plot to rid the mowing world of walk-behinds.

:D

Craig


Oh really? And when did you become such the authoritarian figure btw? We weren't discussing speed, we were discussing general productivity.

Use a mower manufacturer's (anyone's) website and use their numbers soley to give you "productivity"? I think NOT. I use real world numbers from day-in and day-out activity...then again, we only run 11 machines (52's, 61's, and 72's)on day-to-day basis for the last 9 years. So what do I know?:angry:

Fareway Lawncare
01-20-2004, 05:44 PM
Rodfather is correct!

On our accounts Hydro Walks are the way to go. Competition generally uses Walker's, 21"s, or Walks. No one is foolish enough to run mid mount ZTR's.

rodfather
01-20-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
Something I doubt you can argue is bagging systems for wbs vs ZTRs.


Actually, I only run Trac Vac 470's on all my WB's. I don't run vac systems on my Z's btw. The WB vac systems I think I pay around $1500 or so for...so I would not know much to compare a WB vs Z vac system.

So you have me there:D

craigs lawncare
01-20-2004, 06:23 PM
Actually, since you stated that you don't go by manufacturers specs I would really like to see your real world numbers.
Thats it, lets not go by what Gravely tells us because after all Rodfather knows it all. Right?
Maybe in your next response you could post some credible proof that a walk-behind is faster/more productive than a Z. Maybe the reason you don't own a Z is because you cant afford one. Thats probably more the truth.

Originally posted by rodfather
Z more productive? Nope.
Travels faster? Yes.
That makes it more productive? Nope.
Can a Z go where a WB can? Nope.
Is there less trimming with a Z vs. a WB? Nope
Can a Z hold a slope as well as a WB? Nope.

I rest my case for the time being...btw, I own several of each.

You said the discussion was regarding general productivity.
Well Rod father, when you are looking to purchase a $4000+ walk-behind or a $8000+ Z, what is the key element you are looking for besides dependability. Would that be speed?:rolleyes:
AKA efficiency?:rolleyes: How many times have you told someone, time is money?

Craig

rodfather
01-20-2004, 06:32 PM
Afford a Z? I have a couple in fact. Also I have a couple (3 to be exact) Toro 325D Groundsmasters (72 inch decks, 4 wheel drive) that are a helluva lot more expensive than your Z or my Z's.

The key issue I look at is reliability aka your term "dependability". Speed is not a real big issue with me...quality of the job we leave behind is.

As for manufacturer websites posting productivity charts, they're all fine and dandy if you only mow in a straight line all day and never have to turn around. Then again, I don't have too many jobs that require me to mow 33 miles of a straight line alongside an Interstate...so they mean nothing to me.

John Gamba
01-20-2004, 06:48 PM
Pete
Has a 9+ mph walk behined. is that as fast as a rider?
John

rodfather
01-20-2004, 06:51 PM
Very close JG...maybe not even enough to make any difference at all over the course of a day.

craigs lawncare
01-20-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by rodfather
Afford a Z? I have a couple in fact. Also I have a couple (3 to be exact) Toro 325D Groundsmasters (72 inch decks, 4 wheel drive) that are a helluva lot more expensive than your Z or my Z's.

The key issue I look at is reliability aka your term "dependability". Speed is not a real big issue with me...quality of the job we leave behind is.

As for manufacturer websites posting productivity charts, they're all fine and dandy if you only mow in a straight line all day and never have to turn around. Then again, I don't have too many jobs that require me to mow 33 miles of a straight line alongside an Interstate...so they mean nothing to me.

Actually, I would guess that speed is not important to you right now because of this discussion. Tell that to me when your in the middle of your next mowing season. Tell the rest of the forum that time is not money in this business. Please Rod father. Tell us those four words. Time is not money! That is what you are saying isn't it?
You said the key issue is reliability. I agree, reliability is a key issue but not the only one. So, Rodfather are you saying that walk-behinds are more dependable than a Z?
I am going to have to find out where that 33 mile strip of lawn is where Gravely tested there mowers productivity. :rolleyes:

Craig

rodfather
01-20-2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
I am going to have to find out where that 33 mile strip of lawn is where Gravely tested there mowers productivity. :rolleyes:

Craig


Oh, it's the same place that eXmark, Toro, Ferris, Scag, Walker, Bobcat, Hustler, and all the others use. NONE of them use real-world situations/scenarios for depicting actual mowing acreage. Unfortunately, we all have to deal with making turns, going around trees, shrubs, objects etc.

Do I have real world computations? Nope. How come? Simple. Every job is different from the next...no two are alike so it's kind of difficult to get an exact figure on how any one machine will do/cut each hour...as far as I am concerned, the manufacturers use approximations.

And do us/me a favor about the "time is not money" slogan...give it a rest, ok? You're floggin a deal mule LOL. And no, READ my posts. I never said WB's were more dependable, I said more PRODUCTIVE. Hello?

craigs lawncare
01-20-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by rodfather
Oh, it's the same place that eXmark, Toro, Ferris, Scag, Walker, Bobcat, Hustler, and all the others use. NONE of them use real-world situations/scenarios for depicting actual mowing acreage. Unfortunately, we all have to deal with making turns, going around trees, shrubs, objects etc.

Do I have real world computations? Nope. How come? Simple. Every job is different from the next...no two are alike so it's kind of difficult to get an exact figure on how any one machine will do/cut each hour...as far as I am concerned, the manufacturers use approximations.

And do us/me a favor about the "time is not money" slogan...give it a rest, ok? You're floggin a deal mule LOL. And no, READ my posts. I never said WB's were more dependable, I said more PRODUCTIVE. Hello?

Actually Rodfather, I dont think you are living in the real world.:rolleyes:
Explain to me how in your eyes a walk-behind is faster than a Z.
Please.
If time is not important where mowing and profits are concerned, then how do you charge? Just curious.
I realize quality of cut is important but if mower bob is getting twice as many lawns done as you and you want to make the same amount of money at the end of the day, who is going to have to charge double to keep up?
I will try to check my e-mail one more time tonight.
Craig

Fareway Lawncare
01-20-2004, 07:40 PM
Hydro Walk Smokes a ZTR on smaller, landscaped props.

Cut better in wet w/Walk
Cut slopes/ditches
Trim Closer
Turn Much faster without scuffing (Z turn instead of a 3 point).
Able to tip front of deck to avoid scalping.

Really depends on your Props.

You need to get out more Craig.

rodfather
01-20-2004, 07:46 PM
AGAIN I repeat AGAIN I didn't say faster...I said a WB was more PRODUCTIVE!!! Can you not read??? Maybe you should go back and read from the beginning Craig of this thread?

I charge buy the hour btw...$65 per man hour.

Now what I would like to know is...

1. Are you full time or part time in this business?
2. How many WB's and Z's do you presently own and run?
3. How many Z's and WB's have you had in your LCO business since you began?
4. What size machines do you use?
5. Are you solo or do you have employees?
6. How many acreas (roughy) do you mow each week? Number of accounts means nothing to me, acreage is the key.

And BTW, I do live in the real world (ditch the sarcasim if you will). This is my life (full time business) which also allows me to take 3 or 4 months off completely (winter) and at the same time offer employment for 6 or so other men each year from late March/earlyApril through the middle of December.

Sorry and hope you understand, but I can't share with you my financials...

Interested in knowing your situation btw???

bobbygedd
01-20-2004, 09:26 PM
the key word is productivity, not speed. an oooollldddd man told me a looonggg time ago, "i forgot more than you'll ever know". he was right. the rodman is OLD, and he been around a LONG TIME. and i think he is right. anyhow, when u guys are having tripple bypass surgery cus you're so out of shape from riding, me and rod will still be cutting, that means, it's more productive to walk behind. save your arguments, just tune in, 3/15/04, and you will see once and for all, THE PERFECT LAWN MOWING MACHINE

rodfather
01-20-2004, 09:45 PM
And we will be the one's still in business bobby cause a few of us recognize the difference between productivity (including reliability/dependability) vs. speed.

BTW Craig, I make a very, very high 5 fig salary...does mower bob?

I think I am done here now...nope, I know I am. Color me gone.

bastalker
01-20-2004, 09:50 PM
Hey Jb.....It all depends on your accounts......Bottom line

If your props are small an hilly, a wb is the way to go. If they are big an somewhat flat, get a rider, you wont be dissapointed.

Rod, I dont mean to be sarcastic, but what baggin system could you possibly have for a wb that cost $1500?

I have a 60" Z, an the 3 bag UV I got for it cost $1800

rodfather
01-20-2004, 09:55 PM
Like I said, I have Trac Vac 470's for all my WB's. I think they are around $1500 or so. They also all have 5 or 6 hp B/S pony motors runing the vac systems as well which I am sure is more than just a pulley system that runs off one of the spindles...

bastalker
01-20-2004, 10:05 PM
yeah rod yer right, I apoligize, but the one pully UV will pack 13 bushels in the 3 bags with no problem. If yer usin a trac vac, the most you could muster is 3.5 - 5 bushels without it gettin all lopsided.

I also have 25 horses pullin that one pulley...... ; )

rodfather
01-20-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by bastalker
yeah rod yer right, I apoligize, but the one pully UV will pack 13 bushels in the 3 bags with no problem. If yer usin a trac vac, the most you could muster is 3.5 - 5 bushels without it gettin all lopsided.

I also have 25 horses pullin that one pulley...... ; )


No reasons to apologize my friend..diff systems hold diff amounts

J.Gordon
01-21-2004, 06:38 AM
I have a 25/54 Super walk-behind with a BullRider and I wouldn’t trade it for a rider for mowing my place! There are several reasons for this. The SWB has a fast ground speed. Hustler advertises around 8-MPH but I would bet mine goes faster than that. True the Super Z will travel 15 + MPH but speed is not the overriding factor in efficiency. When the terrain is rough you can’t mow at top speed anyway, if you have trees that shed there limbs like crazy you have to get off and move the limbs then get back on the mower. But with the W/B you just walk around and move it! This is one of the reasons I purchased the W/B. I can move the debris and be back mowing before I could be back on the rider. This goes for rocks or any other debris. Thus saving time! On my place in particular, I mow about six acres and I can cut it faster with the W/B than a Super Z with comparable size decks. I would put my W/b up against any Z with comparable decks! If you think the Z is easier on your body than a W/B. I found that to be untrue in certain circumstances. My experience has been after a 10-hour day on rough ground I have less fatigue with the W/b than a Z w/suspension seat. Mowing the same rough ground with the Z my back was killing me! If you get in a dangerous position on a steep hill you can always let go of the W/B but you are in for a ride on a Z! (I will admit the Super Z that I had on my place would hold a hill amazingly! I believe the walk-behinds and the riders both have a place in the industry. So when you hear or read (riders only!) Don’t let yourself be fooled. Keep an open mind and you will be smarter for it. Find out what your needs are then decide on the machine that will fit your needs. Not what Joe Schmoe say’s is the best.

John Gamba
01-21-2004, 07:22 AM
WHERES PETE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J.Gordon
01-21-2004, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by John Gamba
WHERES PETE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He must be on vacation. I have been waiting for him to chime in!

John Gamba
01-21-2004, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by J.Gordon
He must be on vacation. I have been waiting for him to chime in!

Great job! Gordon
I was talking to him yesterday? I'll get him up:D

J.Gordon
01-21-2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by John Gamba
Great job! Gordon
I was talking to him yesterday? I'll get him up:D

Why thank you John! and by the way you can call me Jeff :waving:

Flex-Deck
01-21-2004, 12:03 PM
Walk Behind or Rider? - Whatever works best for you:
Time is Money
Efficiency = More done per Time = More Money.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-21-2004, 12:09 PM
Rod earlier you compared a 23 hp 61 inch wb and a 23 hp 61 in ZTR and said there was little difference. I would have to agree with you but I won’t be joining you in that equipment list. When I think of a walk behind I think of a mower to get areas that are hard to reach. The 61-inch is very limited for getting in gates so that ruins that theory.

To me a walk behind a 2nd class mower 36-52 inches and 15-19 hp roughly 3-4 k for a mower what you described was a monster.

Now to me a ZTR is a 1st class mower 60-72 inches 27-33 hp roughly 8-15 k for a mower what you described was a ZTR with its balls cut off 23 hp I wouldn’t even consider something that under powered.

So Rod I can see how you come to the conclusion that wbs are more productive and in your example they are the same machine. And there fore a fair comparison but I object to that comparison. As the typically ZTR around here has a foot on the deck size of the wb and 10-15 hp on the wb and in that situation I am correct the ZTR will out perform 2-3 guys.

Out of curiosity what did you pay for the 23 hp wb and the 23 hp ZTR? And have you ever went with a larger ZTR? I once took a 22 hp lazer on a demo brand new 60 hours tops and I found that just turning the blades on would stall out the motor. Completely under powered for that use. This spring I'm adding 2 more 60-inch lazers to my fleet and this time I will be going with the 28 hp high efficiency Kohler motors. But I wouldn’t touch something under 27 hp.

John Gamba
01-21-2004, 12:11 PM
Round Two DING DING :D

rodfather
01-21-2004, 12:15 PM
$5100 for the WB's, $6100 for the Z's...and I have a couple of each.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-21-2004, 12:40 PM
Wow that is a cheap price on the ZTR well rod I think you and I can end this now that we understand each other good luck with the others.

rodfather
01-21-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
Wow that is a cheap price on the ZTR well rod I think you and I can end this now that we understand each other good luck with the others.


Best of business $ucce$$ for you as well in 2004:D

John Gamba
01-21-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by rodfather
$5100 for the WB's, $6100 for the Z's...and I have a couple of each.

Mr Rodfather
6100 Dollars for a rider? Is that for one of those spring one's.
John

MTR
01-21-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by J.Gordon
I have a 25/54 Super walk-behind with a BullRider and I wouldn’t trade it for a rider for mowing my place! There are several reasons for this. The SWB has a fast ground speed. Hustler advertises around 8-MPH but I would bet mine goes faster than that. True the Super Z will travel 15 + MPH but speed is not the overriding factor in efficiency. When the terrain is rough you can’t mow at top speed anyway, if you have trees that shed there limbs like crazy you have to get off and move the limbs then get back on the mower. But with the W/B you just walk around and move it! This is one of the reasons I purchased the W/B. I can move the debris and be back mowing before I could be back on the rider. This goes for rocks or any other debris. Thus saving time! On my place in particular, I mow about six acres and I can cut it faster with the W/B than a Super Z with comparable size decks. I would put my W/b up against any Z with comparable decks! If you think the Z is easier on your body than a W/B. I found that to be untrue in certain circumstances. My experience has been after a 10-hour day on rough ground I have less fatigue with the W/b than a Z w/suspension seat. Mowing the same rough ground with the Z my back was killing me! If you get in a dangerous position on a steep hill you can always let go of the W/B but you are in for a ride on a Z! (I will admit the Super Z that I had on my place would hold a hill amazingly! I believe the walk-behinds and the riders both have a place in the industry. So when you hear or read (riders only!) Don’t let yourself be fooled. Keep an open mind and you will be smarter for it. Find out what your needs are then decide on the machine that will fit your needs. Not what Joe Schmoe say’s is the best.

Wow, that is the best example, said it all.
No one will know the benefits of riding on sulky unless one really uses it.

craigs lawncare
01-21-2004, 03:28 PM
Rodfather, I think speed and productivity go hand in hand in any field and I think most people in this forum would agree. If your aren’t mowing at a decent clip, then you are not being very productive now are you. If I am mowing a 5,000 square foot lawn at 3mph with a Z and you are mowing at 9mph with your walk-behind, then I am not being very productive am I? When you go shopping for a new machine, what is one of the first things that come to mind? Speed.
You said you have been in the business for nine years. Sounds like we both have been in the business for the same amount of time. This season will be my tenth. I hate to burst your bubble but just because you have been in the business nine years, that does not make you an expert. Example, my brother graduated from Michigan State University’s turf grass program about five years ago. He has less time in the business than you or I. However, I am always grabbing info from him. I have a few acquaintances that have been in the lawn and landscaping business full time for 14 and 15 years each. They constantly seek my brother for advice. So Rodfather, don’t give me the bull about you being in this business for 9 years and have xyz amount of riders and walk-behinds. Seniority does not mean much.
To answer the rest of your questions.
I work a regular 40-hour per week job and mow 12 lawns (21 + acres) weekly by my self. This is more of a hobby for me. The money I make off it is a bonus.
I own a Gravely 260Z 25 horse Kohler and I own a Scag 48-inch walk behind.
Oh, one more thing. For someone that said color me gone and this is my last post on the subject on 1/20/2004 at 8:45pm it’s funny how you managed to post 4 more times after that defining statement.
Actually, I am still waiting for some kind of documentation from you that shows me that a walk-behind is faster, er I mean more productive than a Z.

Originally posted by rodfather
And we will be the one's still in business bobby cause a few of us recognize the difference between productivity (including reliability/dependability) vs. speed.

BTW Craig, I make a very, very high 5 fig salary...does mower bob?

I think I am done here now...nope, I know I am. Color me gone.

rodfather
01-21-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
Mr Rodfather
6100 Dollars for a rider? Is that for one of those spring one's.
John


No, the IS (Independent Suspension) type is more John.

rodfather
01-21-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Rodfather, I think speed and productivity go hand in hand in any field and I think most people in this forum would agree. If your aren’t mowing at a decent clip, then you are not being very productive now are you. If I am mowing a 5,000 square foot lawn at 3mph with a Z and you are mowing at 9mph with your walk-behind, then I am not being very productive am I? When you go shopping for a new machine, what is one of the first things that come to mind? Speed.
You said you have been in the business for nine years. Sounds like we both have been in the business for the same amount of time. This season will be my tenth. I hate to burst your bubble but just because you have been in the business nine years, that does not make you an expert. Example, my brother graduated from Michigan State University’s turf grass program about five years ago. He has less time in the business than you or I. However, I am always grabbing info from him. I have a few acquaintances that have been in the lawn and landscaping business full time for 14 and 15 years each. They constantly seek my brother for advice. So Rodfather, don’t give me the bull about you being in this business for 9 years and have xyz amount of riders and walk-behinds. Seniority does not mean much.
To answer the rest of your questions.
I work a regular 40-hour per week job and mow 12 lawns (21 + acres) weekly by my self. This is more of a hobby for me. The money I make off it is a bonus.
I own a Gravely 260Z 25 horse Kohler and I own a Scag 48-inch walk behind.
Oh, one more thing. For someone that said color me gone and this is my last post on the subject on 1/20/2004 at 8:45pm it’s funny how you managed to post 4 more times after that defining statement.
Actually, I am still waiting for some kind of documentation from you that shows me that a walk-behind is faster, er I mean more productive than a Z.


Give it a rest, will ya Craig?

If this is a hobby for you as you say, then you belong with the rest of the part time scrubs who don't collect sales tax, don't carry the proper insurance requirements, have no business license, no reporting of income to the IRS, etc. and belong on the homeowner forum...not commercial lawn care.

12+ lawns huh? That ought to get you on the front cover of Forbes Magazine as businessman of the year for 2003 btw.

bobbygedd
01-21-2004, 05:38 PM
21 acres? you mean, you can do the entire 21 acres, in only one week? you are my king!

craigs lawncare
01-21-2004, 07:50 PM
Rodfather, as I said, this is a hobby that happens to pay me. If I were looking at trying to make an appearance on the cover of “Forbes Magazine” I wouldn’t be mowing lawns.
I don’t low-ball, I have liability insurance and I report all of my income to the tax-man. I am far from a scrub. Just because someone chooses not to get into the green industry as a full time gig, does not make them a lesser person. I hate to say it Rod, but I bet there are more lawn-site members that do this part-time than there are full time mowers.
Actually, I have a great 40hr per week job that I love and get paid much more than I ever could mowing grass.
I have no-reason to quit my 40hr per week job. By doing this, I also have the ability to name my price for my lawn services. If I decide to expand and add more accounts, I can pick and choose. I don’t deal with PITA property owners and if they don’t like my price, well I move on and they can hire someone more desperate for income.
Actually Rod, I think you are trying to deflect the question. I am still waiting for you to answer my question. Do you have some credible proof that substantiates a walk-behind is faster than a Z. Come on now, I answered your question, several actually. Since you have already proven to the forum that you word is useless than I would like to see some sort of documentation, some substantial media release that states this.
I have seen you on your soapbox on this site regarding this subject many times, now I want proof.
Don’t come back with the 45-degree angle on the slope bit. That is worn out. I mow 12 lawns and only two of them have small area’s that can’t be accessed with a rider. One of them can only be accessed with a 21-inch push mower. I guess that defeats that theory doesn’t it.

Flex-Deck
01-21-2004, 08:57 PM
LOL on the 21+ acres per week. I assume that is an in jest statement - I mow 21+ acres per day - one machine.

bastalker
01-22-2004, 01:40 AM
this topic has been beat to death to many times.....Wait a day or two, and someone else will ask the same thing.

Do a search on this topic, and it will keep ya busy for awhile...

dobehap
01-22-2004, 10:39 AM
Craigs Lawncare,

Let me explain to you why a rider is not the answer to all your problems. You see they make diffrent machines for a diffrent reason.

Analogy:
Say you want to argue that a 5 pound hammer is more productive than a 2 lb hammer.
You say that it takes less swings to drive a nail in, because its heavier... But using this hammer you get tired more faster right? Also using this hammer you wont reach some nails at all right? They make a 2lb and a 5lb hammer, because each has a purpose. Each is used appropriately as the job calls.

That is why Rodfather has Walkbehinds AND Riders.

Why dont all LCO have a 12 foot wing as their best mowing machine....for it could knock out your 21 acres in 5 minutes! And it also goes 20mph, this must be what you need! You get the picture.

Machines productivity is not measured by speed alone, its just one of the factors. You see my truck can go 100+ mph, but it cant cut no grass, so does this mean its more productive cutting grass than my 36" mower? Not.

They make both because there is a demand for both... And by the way, people dont buy walk behinds just because they cant afford riders, Some walkbehinds are more expensive then some riders.

craigs lawncare
01-22-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by dobehap
Craigs Lawncare,

Let me explain to you why a rider is not the answer to all your problems. You see they make diffrent machines for a diffrent reason.

Analogy:
Say you want to argue that a 5 pound hammer is more productive than a 2 lb hammer.
You say that it takes less swings to drive a nail in, because its heavier... But using this hammer you get tired more faster right? Also using this hammer you wont reach some nails at all right? They make a 2lb and a 5lb hammer, because each has a purpose. Each is used appropriately as the job calls.

That is why Rodfather has Walkbehinds AND Riders.

Why dont all LCO have a 12 foot wing as their best mowing machine....for it could knock out your 21 acres in 5 minutes! And it also goes 20mph, this must be what you need! You get the picture.

Machines productivity is not measured by speed alone, its just one of the factors. You see my truck can go 100+ mph, but it cant cut no grass, so does this mean its more productive cutting grass than my 36" mower? Not.

They make both because there is a demand for both... And by the way, people dont buy walk behinds just because they cant afford riders, Some walkbehinds are more expensive then some riders.

Dopehap, your hammer analogy is pretty funny. I almost fell out of my chair when you were talking about fatigue being a factor. Hmm. You are correct, at the end of the day; I think I would be pretty darn tired swinging a 5lb hammer. As well, I would be pretty darn tired balancing on a walk-behind all day vs. sitting on a Z. Which one is supposed to be the 5lb hammer. In this case, I would have to say it would be the walk-behind.
Your analogy doesn’t work with the size of the hammer for getting into tight places either. If we both have comparable decks for the sake of productivity, lets say 60 inch’s and we are both trying to get through a 36-inch gate. Neither machine is going to do you much good now is it? Rodfather is going to have to get off his velke and I am going to have to get off my rider and pull out a smaller machine.
Your theory about the 12-foot wing? Are you exaggerating a bit? I think there is a bit of a difference between a 12-foot mower vs. a rider or walk-behind with a 50 or 60-inch deck.
As far as your truck analogy goes… I think you were reaching a bit on that one as well.

dobehap
01-22-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Dopehap, your hammer analogy is pretty funny. I almost fell out of my chair when you were talking about fatigue being a factor. Hmm. You are correct, at the end of the day; I think I would be pretty darn tired swinging a 5lb hammer. As well, I would be pretty darn tired balancing on a walk-behind all day vs. sitting on a Z. Which one is supposed to be the 5lb hammer. In this case, I would have to say it would be the walk-behind.
Laugh all your want, First you dont ballance a walkbehind, maybe you dont know how to use one. I said it before and I say it again, they sell both machines for a reason. I have back problems, and if I ride a rider all day, next morning I wont be able to get out of a bed. Walkbehind /sulky is a much better combo for me. Its a lot easier on my back. Lot of users have said the same thing. So in my example, and my situation, the 5lb hammer is a rider ok? Id rather have my legs absorb the shock rather than my aching back.


Your analogy doesn’t work with the size of the hammer for getting into tight places either. If we both have comparable decks for the sake of productivity, lets say 60 inch’s and we are both trying to get through a 36-inch gate. Neither machine is going to do you much good now is it? Rodfather is going to have to get off his velke and I am going to have to get off my rider and pull out a smaller machine.


So a 36inch mower will be more productive than a 60inch Z for that 36" fence huh? Applause ::: :rolleyes:

Ah, you needed that walkbehind after all. Rodfather did the right thing by having one on hand. And you wont be pulling out a smaller machine, because you dont have one.



Your theory about the 12-foot wing? Are you exaggerating a bit? I think there is a bit of a difference between a 12-foot mower vs. a rider or walk-behind with a 50 or 60-inch deck.
No I was not exaggerating, its the fact that you sir need to realize that there is a big difference between a walkbehind and Z
Just like you would not use a 12 foot wing to cut your normal acre property, you would not use a Z were there the walkbehind simply is more productive.


As far as your truck analogy goes… I think you were reaching a bit on that one as well. :
Dont be naive, and realize just think for a moment why they make a Ranger, and why they make a F-750, and everything in between.

craigs lawncare
01-22-2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by dobehap
Laugh all your want, First you dont ballance a walkbehind, maybe you dont know how to use one. I said it before and I say it again, they sell both machines for a reason. I have back problems, and if I ride a rider all day, next morning I wont be able to get out of a bed. Walkbehind /sulky is a much better combo for me. Its a lot easier on my back. Lot of users have said the same thing. So in my example, and my situation, the 5lb hammer is a rider ok? Id rather have my legs absorb the shock rather than my aching back.



So a 36inch mower will be more productive than a 60inch Z for that 36" fence huh? Applause ::: :rolleyes:

Ah, you needed that walkbehind after all. Rodfather did the right thing by having one on hand. And you wont be pulling out a smaller machine, because you dont have one.


[/b]
No I was not exaggerating, its the fact that you sir need to realize that there is a big difference between a walkbehind and Z
Just like you would not use a 12 foot wing to cut your normal acre property, you would not use a Z were there the walkbehind simply is more productive.

:
Dont be naive, and realize just think for a moment why they make a Ranger, and why they make a F-750, and everything in between. [/B]

Dobehap,

Really! you don't balance on a walk-behind.
You have to balance to stand don't you. You stand on a velke don't you. Twisting and turning and speeding up and slowing down. I don't have your back problems so I don't know your medical situation.
So where in the heck in that last post did I say A 36 inch mower was more productive than a 60 inch mower? Don't put words in my mouth.
Actually, I think you have more than back problem's. :rolleyes:
I never said one never needed a walk-behind now did I. After all, in case you missed that as well, I own a Scag 48 inch walk-behind. My issue with Rod is Speed/Productivity. He says they are equal to a rider. I say they aren't.
Still waiting for his response by the way.
You said I need to understand that there is a difference between a walk-behind and a Z. AGAIN.... you missed my point. I realize their is a big difference between the two. It is you and your brother Rod who seems to think they are on the same playing field as a Z.

Craig

Flex-Deck
01-22-2004, 06:26 PM
Whoa Guys, Chill! - I have been asked to chill before also - in fact just a couple of days ago.

What I am seeing here is a lot of misunderstanding and misquoting. I think everyone is on the same page really.

WB have the advantage of steeper incline mowing - getting thru gates - with a velky are great.

Everyone gets all concerned about speed differences, but in my opinion, at least in SE. Iowa, when summer rolls around and the ground gets hard you can not stay on a mower if you are going over 8 mph. - too many nite crawlers and much rough ground.

Can't usually go over 8 in the spring and fall because the grass is growing terribly thick and fast and wet. So the book on the mower may say "Mow at 15 mph, but it is only when driving between jobs that I seem to go that fast"

Example of WB advantage over rider-Steep Inclines
http://36X Main Deck

John Gamba
01-22-2004, 06:27 PM
Craig
They Do use Bigger More Powerful Walks Then You Have. They Do Perform Like A slower Rider But can clime And Go Where A Rider Cant. That Can Be A BIG Time saver In Some areas.
John

rodfather
01-22-2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
It is you and your brother Rod who seems to think they are on the same playing field as a Z.

Craig


No, my brother's name is Erick btw.

And no, we are not on the same playing field...that's painfully obvious to you and you can't accept it. You're Little League to me doing this part time with your 12 accounts as a hobby (so you say). I on the other hand do this full time, employ 5 people and have 142 full maintenance accounts (not including snow removal or leaf cleanup).

20 acres in a week huh? We do a little more than twice that a day. And if you can't distinguish or comprehend the difference between mower speed and productivity, allow me to give you one last piece of advice -- don't quit your day job.

dobehap
01-22-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Dobehap,

Really! you don't balance on a walk-behind.
You have to balance to stand don't you. You stand on a velke don't you. Twisting and turning and speeding up and slowing down. I don't have your back problems so I don't know your medical situation.
So where in the heck in that last post did I say A 36 inch mower was more productive than a 60 inch mower? Don't put words in my mouth.
Actually, I think you have more than back problem's. :rolleyes:


Craig

Craig you are ASSuming and thats not good. You know you have to balance to sit too, you know?
I use a Bullrider, incase you havent heard, it has castering wheels, so my ballancing on it is just as your ballancing sitting down and holding to the controls. My velke doest twist or turn, and I can back up without getting off it.

I dont see this getting anywhere, maybe you really ought to get more accounts and see that there is much more to it then you try to portray.

Good day :)

PaulJ
01-23-2004, 02:05 AM
With this, I won't need a different mower for a long long time. .:D :D :D :D :D :D
If I want more prodectivity I will put a flex-deck on this.

My back and legs are in a lot worse shape after riding in a car for a few hours than riding my bullrider all day.

This will get the job done as well as a rider with the same size deck will do and more. NOt all walkbehinds can do that. That's why I bought this one.:D :D :D :D :D :D

:cool2: :cool2: payup payup ;) ;) :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p :p :D :D :) :) :) :) :drinkup: :drinkup:

That's all I have to say abuot that!!!!

Doc Pete
01-23-2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by PaulJ

My back and legs are in a lot worse shape after riding in a car for a few hours than riding my bullrider all day.
That's all I have to say abuot that!!!!

Yup, Love those giant tires:D

J.Gordon
01-23-2004, 09:48 AM
Well Pete its about time!!!! Glad to see you finally made it. Did John have a hard time waking you up? By the way that’s not a walk-behind. It doesn’t go 3-MPH have pistol grips and a 36’’ deck so it can’t be a walk-behind it must be some new fangled rider. :D By the way, what is that just to the left of your right drive tire sitting above the wheel motor? (Extra weight) talk to you later!

Jeff

Doc Pete
01-23-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by J.Gordon
Well Pete its about time!!!!
Jeff
In a word...... SNOW!!!!:p :p Between work and my PT snow removal I've been busy......:cool2: :cool2:

craigs lawncare
01-23-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Flex-Deck
Whoa Guys, Chill! - I have been asked to chill before also - in fact just a couple of days ago.

What I am seeing here is a lot of misunderstanding and misquoting. I think everyone is on the same page really.

WB have the advantage of steeper incline mowing - getting thru gates - with a velky are great.

Everyone gets all concerned about speed differences, but in my opinion, at least in SE. Iowa, when summer rolls around and the ground gets hard you can not stay on a mower if you are going over 8 mph. - too many nite crawlers and much rough ground.

Can't usually go over 8 in the spring and fall because the grass is growing terribly thick and fast and wet. So the book on the mower may say "Mow at 15 mph, but it is only when driving between jobs that I seem to go that fast"

Example of WB advantage over rider-Steep Inclines
http://36X Main Deck

Flex-Deck, no misunderstanding here. I think we (RodF and I) are a long way from being on the same page.
You are right, WB’s have the advantage on steep slopes but that is where it ends. If your deck is small enough to get inside a gated yard and the Z can not, then the person with the rider is still being more efficient with the larger deck, and will have time to get a smaller machine to finish the back yard. Every yard is different of course. Most yards I have seen have equal square footage in the front and in the back.
As far as going at high speeds. I have a Scag 48 inch walk-behind that I HAD a velke on, and believe me those same lawns on my rider are a breeze. I could not mow wide open on the velke. I can on my rider.
As far as your example of a walk-behind on a steep incline. See the thread titled walk-behind slides thread.

Craig
:)

craigs lawncare
01-23-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
Craig
They Do use Bigger More Powerful Walks Then You Have. They Do Perform Like A slower Rider But can clime And Go Where A Rider Cant. That Can Be A BIG Time saver In Some areas.
John

Hi John, You are right, the key word is CAN be a big time saver.
I guess if the majority of your lawns look like the streets of San Francisco then yes, I would recommend a walk-behind. How many of you have that many hilly yards?
I did like your subtle wording in your post though. “They do perform like a slower rider…”

Craig
:)

craigs lawncare
01-23-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by rodfather
No, my brother's name is Erick btw.

And no, we are not on the same playing field...that's painfully obvious to you and you can't accept it. You're Little League to me doing this part time with your 12 accounts as a hobby (so you say). I on the other hand do this full time, employ 5 people and have 142 full maintenance accounts (not including snow removal or leaf cleanup).

20 acres in a week huh? We do a little more than twice that a day. And if you can't distinguish or comprehend the difference between mower speed and productivity, allow me to give you one last piece of advice -- don't quit your day job.

Rodfather, you are the man. You see, it is my goal in life to have a lawn business with 142 accounts.
Lets do a little math here.
You say you do 142 accounts with five people working for you.
I on the other-hand only can muster up 12 pitiful accounts solo with my scrub lawn-care business.
Hmm… Now if I had five guys working for me… Lets see, 12 lawns x five workers = 60 lawns. Then add another 12 lawns for myself, Voila, I could manage 72 accounts and keep my regular 40-hour per week job. So, if I am doing this part-time along with my 40hr per-week job and can knock-out 50% of what you are doing right now and you are doing this full time. Sorry Rod, but it just does not sound like your making the best use of your time. Maybe you should try a Z. :rolleyes:


Craig

craigs lawncare
01-24-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by rodfather
Z more productive? Nope.
Travels faster? Yes.
That makes it more productive? Nope.
Can a Z go where a WB can? Nope.
Is there less trimming with a Z vs. a WB? Nope
Can a Z hold a slope as well as a WB? Nope.

I rest my case for the time being...btw, I own several of each.

Hey Rod, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about productivity.
You said it right up there in the above quote. :D
PROOF!

Craig

Doc Pete
01-24-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Hey Rod, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about productivity.
You said it right up there in the above quote. :D
PROOF!

Craig
Hustler WB’s are just as fast as a Z. They maneuver faster. They handle slopes better. Since you must compare equal deck size, that point is mute. You need to stop comparing old style WB’s that only go 6 mph and have a “non” castored velky attached.

DP

rodfather
01-24-2004, 11:10 AM
Don't waste your time, Pete. There's been 6 pages of responses and this individual still doesn't get it. It's like talking to a head of lettuce...

craigs lawncare
01-24-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Hustler WB’s are just as fast as a Z. They maneuver faster. They handle slopes better. Since you must compare equal deck size, that point is mute. You need to stop comparing old style WB’s that only go 6 mph and have a “non” castored velky attached.

DP

Actually my comparison to deck-size was added because someone mentioned a WB could get into gated yards that a Z could not. If this was the case, then the Z would have to have a larger deck. Correct? Thus, the larger deck would be more efficient.
I am not going by experiences with just my walk-behind.
I mow a couple of lawns with my Z next to comparably sized properties that other LCO's are mowing with newer walk-behinds than my Scag and I can start after they are already unloaded and mowing and be on my way before they are finished.
Like someone in an earlier post said, you would think they could figure it out. :rolleyes:
If you look at the beginning of this thread, I am not the only lawnsite member that feels the way I do.

Craig

craigs lawncare
01-24-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by rodfather
Don't waste your time, Pete. There's been 6 pages of responses and this individual still doesn't get it. It's like talking to a head of lettuce...

I get it and apparently so do other members. See the first half of this thread.

You still like to go back to the steep slope bit. Rod, see the other thread on this forum tittled. "Walk-behind slips on slope"
View what others are saying on this subject.

I just don't think that one difference alone is enough to say a WB is better than a Z.

You said you own both Z's and WB's.
If WB's are so great, why don't you trade all of your Z's in and start with being more "Productive" with an entire fleet of WB's.
If you did that, you could bump your lawns from 142 to say 200 and maybe even make the cover of "Forbes Magazine."

Craig :)

Flex-Deck
01-24-2004, 12:07 PM
Nice pics of your Hustlers Paul J. and Doc Pete - I demoed that H bar or whatever they call it in St. Louis, and Since I am a steering wheel (JD 455 tractors) person, I can say that the Hustler was probably by far the easiest one to get used to immediately. I have an eXmark Viking and like it too, Just took a bit longer to get used to - Lots of good mowers out there.

BTW - here a Hustler I got to mow with for about a week.

Flex-Deck
01-24-2004, 12:10 PM
Here is the Hustlerhttp://Hustler

brucec32
01-24-2004, 03:03 PM
Use a rider whereever possible if you value keeping yourself or your workers fresh and unfatigued. Use wb's where you can't use the riders. Even a sulky still requires more physical effort than sitting, IMO. You'll be most efficient I think with a rider for wide areas and a smaller deck wb for gates, slopes, small areas, etc.

Doc Pete
01-24-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Flex-Deck
Here is the Hustlerhttp://Hustler

There still may be a time when I may try one of the FD's. I must say, those guy's that want a big machine for gate yards, the FD and a 36 WB is best way to go for the near future.
DP

craigs lawncare
01-24-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by brucec32
Use a rider whereever possible if you value keeping yourself or your workers fresh and unfatigued. Use wb's where you can't use the riders. Even a sulky still requires more physical effort than sitting, IMO. You'll be most efficient I think with a rider for wide areas and a smaller deck wb for gates, slopes, small areas, etc.


Hmmm.... :D


Craig

Doc Pete
01-24-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by brucec32
Even a sulky still requires more physical effort than sitting, IMO.

Bruce,
That's true to point. First, just like in motorcycle racing there are times when the ground is so rough that standing on the velky (motorcycle), is less “punishing” on the employee than sitting.
And “THIS”, is something that doesn’t show up until years later. Plus, it’s a very important issue to address.
Using a rider on rough ground is like smoking. You can get away with for years, but eventually it will get you. Furthermore, like smoking, some of us can stand the pounding on their back/neck and live forever. OTOH, many/most of us can’t take the punishment and like smoking it “gets us” at a young age.
Remember, there’s more to work, than making money.
DP

craigs lawncare
01-25-2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Bruce,
That's true to point. First, just like in motorcycle racing there are times when the ground is so rough that standing on the velky (motorcycle), is less “punishing” on the employee than sitting.
And “THIS”, is something that doesn’t show up until years later. Plus, it’s a very important issue to address.
Using a rider on rough ground is like smoking. You can get away with for years, but eventually it will get you. Furthermore, like smoking, some of us can stand the pounding on their back/neck and live forever. OTOH, many/most of us can’t take the punishment and like smoking it “gets us” at a young age.
Remember, there’s more to work, than making money.
DP


Now there is a great comparison. Riding or racing a motorcycle is like riding a velky. :rolleyes:
Pete, you and your brother rod must have some pretty mean machines. You guys should give up lawn maintenance and just charge admission to the public to ride em. ;)
You know Pete, I made a sarcastic comment earlier in this thread that the mowing companies have a conspiracy against walk-behinds. :rolleyes: You really pulled it all out with your comparison to smoking. I can see it now.
The surgeon general has issued a warning that says prolonged usage of a Z is hazardous to your health. :rolleyes:
Its a conspiracy! Quick, someone call Art Bell. :alien:

Your right doc. There is more to life than money. Like riding one of those motorcycle simulators... er I mean walk-behinds you guys have.
No wonder they are so fast! :rolleyes:


Craig

Doc Pete
01-25-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Now there is a great comparison. Riding or racing a motorcycle is like riding a velky. :rolleyes:
Pete, you and your brother rod must have some pretty mean machines. You guys should give up lawn maintenance and just charge admission to the public to ride em. ;)
You know Pete, I made a sarcastic comment earlier in this thread that the mowing companies have a conspiracy against walk-behinds. :rolleyes: You really pulled it all out with your comparison to smoking. I can see it now.
The surgeon general has issued a warning that says prolonged usage of a Z is hazardous to your health. :rolleyes:
Its a conspiracy! Quick, someone call Art Bell. :alien:

Your right doc. There is more to life than money. Like riding one of those motorcycle simulators... er I mean walk-behinds you guys have.
No wonder they are so fast! :rolleyes:

Sorry, I was just trying to help. For the record, how many years have you been in mowing lawns with the rider???
DP




Craig

rodfather
01-25-2004, 12:38 PM
Pete

I don't know why you waste your breath with this ham and egger. He's an expert...don't you know that? All those years of mowing 12 lawns part time has made him "the authority" of the lawn mowing world.

BTW, I didn't know that you and I are brothers too. In fact in just this past week, I have acquired 2 more brothers I never knew I had. Maybe I should be thanking Craigs Lawn World for finding them for me?

Do what I did...put him on your Ignore List with some of the other propellor heads.

gramps
01-25-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by bastalker
this topic has been beat to death to many times.....Wait a day or two, and someone else will ask the same thing.

Do a search on this topic, and it will keep ya busy for awhile...
What was the question. Or should I wait a day or two.:)

PaulJ
01-26-2004, 01:22 AM
I like the motorcycle comparison.
I used to have a bike until some idiot made a left turn in front of me!:blob2: :blob2: :blob2: :mad: :mad:

It was just a little street bike but I still miss it. Now I have my hustler super walkbeihnd with a great sulky and It's as close as I get to a cycle and I love it.. I get to ride this machine all day and get paid for it:D :D :D :D It's fast smooth efficient and does everything I ask of it.
I guess if you have to ask why then you just don't get it.:confused: :confused:

craigs lawncare
01-26-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
For the record, how many years have you been mowing lawns with the rider???

Six

craigs lawncare
01-26-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by rodfather

I don't know why you waste your breath with this ham and egger. He's an expert...don't you know that? All those years of mowing 12 lawns part time has made him "the authority" of the lawn mowing world.

Rod, before you go running off at the keyboard again, remember we have both been in the biz for 10 years. I never said I was the authority. I think you think you are an expert.


Do what I did...put him on your Ignore List with some of the other propellor heads.

Actually Rod, you are the one that made the statement that WB’s were faster than riders.
Ok, everyone has the right to speak his or her mind about a topic including you, now BACK IT UP with something factual.
You can't or you would have done it already. Right!

Craig

brucec32
01-26-2004, 02:37 PM
My knees are the problem, I sit to avoid wear on them. So far my back's been fine. I actually prefer sulky mowing for "fun", but it's been more wearing on me. Then again I've used belt drive wbs. I am sure a hydro would be less tiring, but it still doesn't eliminate the knee problems from using them as shock absorbers.

I do recall doing some smallish lawns with lots of banks and nooks and crannies last year with my 44" toro wb and sulky. I time every lawn and these 4 lawns next to each other I did finish a little faster than with my 48" rider that was in the shop. But still, I was glad to get my rider back.

rodfather
01-26-2004, 03:08 PM
Z more productive? Nope.
Travels faster? Yes.
That makes it more productive? Nope.
Can a Z go where a WB can? Nope.
Is there less trimming with a Z vs. a WB? Nope
Can a Z hold a slope as well as a WB? Nope.

I rest my case for the time being...btw, I own several of each.


I wrote this a week ago today. Can't you read Craig? Where does it say here or in any of my other replies that a WB is faster than a Z?

Hello...anyone home?

rodfather
01-26-2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
[i]Rod, before you go running off at the keyboard again, remember we have both been in the biz for 10 years. I never said I was the authority. I think you think you are an expert.



Let's just say I have more real world experience in this profession than you Craig...you have your part time business (hobby as you call it) handling 12 accounts each week comprising 21 acres of lawn vs. my full time business with employees handling at present 142 full service accounts totalling 200+ acres of lawn.

Expert in general? Nah. Compared to you? Without a doubt.

craigs lawncare
01-28-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by rodfather
Let's just say I have more real world experience in this profession than you Craig...you have your part time business (hobby as you call it) handling 12 accounts each week comprising 21 acres of lawn vs. my full time business with employees handling at present 142 full service accounts totalling 200+ acres of lawn.

Expert in general? Nah. Compared to you? Without a doubt.


Rodfather, first let me say that it does not seem that you have utilized your “real-world” experience to its full potential.
Only 142 lawns with five guys working for you. Please!
So Rod, I am still waiting for you to prove to me that a WB is overall more efficient/productive than a Z.
Come on now, you said walk-behinds were better, now I want more than just “YOUR OPINION” on this. I want some proof. If this were so, then I would say there is some sort of credible documentation that claims this.
Please, if your response is going to be the same old worn out, “walk-behinds are better on slopes” bit than don’t bother. I know a WB has the advantage on slopes. What else do they have?


Craig
:)

MTR
01-29-2004, 01:44 PM
Based on personal experience (2 1/2 seasons commercially), smal LCO have better chance of surviving and growing if they start out with "no debt" by using WB/sulky, but those who starts out with big 7 or 8 or 9 grand Z, by the end of season it is up for sale and business closes cause the cost of monthly paying and expenses and the up and down of this biz virtually kill your profit.
I know 2 of my friends gone out of biz and yet still owing the Z loan, and now working different job to pay for the balance. No any Z can weather the up and down and mindset of this biz, I guarantee.
At least, one of another advantages WB has...besides all of enough said.
regards,

craigs lawncare
01-30-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by MTR
Based on personal experience (2 1/2 seasons commercially), smal LCO have better chance of surviving and growing if they start out with "no debt" by using WB/sulky, but those who starts out with big 7 or 8 or 9 grand Z, by the end of season it is up for sale and business closes cause the cost of monthly paying and expenses and the up and down of this biz virtually kill your profit.
I know 2 of my friends gone out of biz and yet still owing the Z loan, and now working different job to pay for the balance. No any Z can weather the up and down and mindset of this biz, I guarantee.
At least, one of another advantages WB has...besides all of enough said.
regards,

What?? :rolleyes:
I think what you were saying in the above quote was that someone who is just starting out in the business should start out with very conservatively priced machines. If you are just starting in the biz, then yes, I agree. After all, you have to be able to pay for your machines.
However, nowhere in JB1LNDSCPRs' original post does it say he is starting a new business.

JB1LNDSCPR said in his first post, "I am looking for some equipment and i am not sure if the big jump in price is worth the money for a rider when you can ride on a sulky."

Being money conscience and staying away from deep debt is one thing, however on the flip side of that argument you could say that not having a larger machine can hold you back as well.

You have to spend money if you want to make money.



Craig

Kelly's Landscaping
01-30-2004, 04:11 PM
JB1LNDSCPR said in his first post

Who the h*** is JB1LNDSCPR this hasn’t been his post since about page 2 you and I have both went to war with Rod only I got him to explain what he meant and I think he is right. A ZTR with a 23hp motor and the 61-inch deck will perform little better if at all as a WB hydro with a 23hp motor and a 61-inch deck.

As far as the argument of a WB being more productive over a ZTR goes I think it should end now Craig. Rod is right in his example and you and I Craig are right in ours. He uses an overpowered monster of a WB with a very large deck and he uses an underpowered ZTR with an average deck. That has been established it’s why he thinks that way.

There is no way the 23 hp hydro WB with a 61-inch deck would beat a 31-34 hp ZTR with a 72-inch deck. And you know what Craig he never said it would. So please can we let this thread die already.

And Rod ill probably be accused of this now so allow me to congratulate you on becoming my brother and my birthday is May 26th so you have plenty of time to prepare LOL heheheh.

As for attacking some one on how large they have made their business that is just going to far and No one cares who started it.

craigs lawncare
02-01-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
JB1LNDSCPR said in his first post

Who the h*** is JB1LNDSCPR this hasn’t been his post since about page 2 you and I have both went to war with Rod only I got him to explain what he meant and I think he is right. A ZTR with a 23hp motor and the 61-inch deck will perform little better if at all as a WB hydro with a 23hp motor and a 61-inch deck.

As far as the argument of a WB being more productive over a ZTR goes I think it should end now Craig. Rod is right in his example and you and I Craig are right in ours. He uses an overpowered monster of a WB with a very large deck and he uses an underpowered ZTR with an average deck. That has been established it’s why he thinks that way.

There is no way the 23 hp hydro WB with a 61-inch deck would beat a 31-34 hp ZTR with a 72-inch deck. And you know what Craig he never said it would. So please can we let this thread die already.

And Rod ill probably be accused of this now so allow me to congratulate you on becoming my brother and my birthday is May 26th so you have plenty of time to prepare LOL heheheh.

As for attacking some one on how large they have made their business that is just going to far and No one cares who started it.

Yes Kelly's Landscaping, Rod is a major example of twisting the facts.
Since Rod is not using the best of the best in his examples, he is distorting the facts as to which is better.
A lot has been posted about the Hustler super walk-behinds on this thread. Those are machines priced at $5800, to the low $6000 range. At least that was what I was told by the three dealerships in the southern MI area I called yesterday. And that is not including the velke. Now, I am sure they are great machines, but now you’re in the mid to upper $6000 range after you add the velke, before taxes. A low to mid range zero turn rider like you are talking about is not going to be much more than that. Six grand for a walk-behind. I wouldn’t pay it.
As for the statement of attacking someone on their business size. I attack only after being attacked.
Earlier in this thread, Rodfather said, “If this is a hobby for you as you say, then you belong with the rest of the part time scrubs who don't collect sales tax, don't carry the proper insurance requirements, have no business license, no reporting of income to the IRS, etc. and belong on the homeowner forum...not commercial lawn care. 12+ lawns huh? That ought to get you on the front cover of Forbes Magazine as businessman of the year for 2003 btw.” End of quote.
Yes, Kelly’s, that would be what I would call a shot at someone’s business.
I am still waiting for proof Rod.

Doc Pete
02-01-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
Those are machines priced at $5800, to the low $6000 range. At least that was what I was told by the three dealerships in the southern MI area I called yesterday

Gees, the dealers I called yesterday said they were $29.95 with a small setup charge of only $7,000 each. And, if I bought two, I'd get a year’s subscription to “Pinball magazine”, and a free “Popel pocket fisherman”. Plus if I came in within an hour, I’d get a 20% discount certificate at Wal-Mart , 5 Ginsu knives and free coffee with a bun.
What you ya think, should I rush down and buy’em now??? After all, they told me on the phone, so it must be true……………

rodfather
02-01-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
JB1LNDSCPR said in his first post

And Rod ill probably be accused of this now so allow me to congratulate you on becoming my brother and my birthday is May 26th so you have plenty of time to prepare LOL heheheh.



My family keeps getting larger and larger...btw, I'll try to remember to send a card...LOL

rodfather
02-01-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by craigs lawncare
I am still waiting for proof Rod.


You're not worth my time Craig...give it a rest will ya.

Jodi, hasn't this gone on long enough already? Talk about flogging a dead horse for God's sake.

John Gamba
02-01-2004, 05:58 PM
Here Craig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kelly's Landscaping
02-01-2004, 06:12 PM
Nothing like wet grass John. So what are they lined up to be washed. They are pretty though.

Doc Pete
02-01-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Kelly's Landscaping
Nothing like wet grass John. So what are they lined up to be washed. They are pretty though.

He tried to prove to the exwife he actually has a job..:D

John Gamba
02-01-2004, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
He tried to prove to the exwife he actually has a job..:D

You know how you dirty up your pants before you go home (from a day off) i put grass on the mowers!
thanks pete! you blow my cover:laugh:

Doc Pete
02-01-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
You know how you dirty up your pants before you go home (from a day off) i put grass on the mowers!
thanks pete! you blow my cover:laugh:

Boy, I'll have to try that trick:rolleyes:

Fareway Lawncare
01-28-2005, 06:47 PM
Hey JG...How do you Get that Grass Off the Drive ?!?

ince8728
01-28-2005, 08:15 PM
good example: i work for an lco in the summer, we had like 6 guys with a 36 & 32 (don't ask) then this other lco pulled up with a walker. they did 2 houses and were driving away when we were just finishing with one house across the street, extremely embarrassed.

LawnMowerBoy48
01-28-2005, 10:44 PM
it all boils down to what suits your needs best in the end

s and s mowing
01-29-2005, 12:16 AM
.
Maybe i will get a new ztr this year and a used w.b. for smaller stuff next year.Sounds like a good combo to me.

thats my setup and i think it is the ultimate setup,although my wb is new.

derek1
01-29-2005, 03:08 AM
the key word is productivity, not speed. an oooollldddd man told me a looonggg time ago, "i forgot more than you'll ever know". he was right. the rodman is OLD, and he been around a LONG TIME. and i think he is right. anyhow, when u guys are having tripple bypass surgery cus you're so out of shape from riding, me and rod will still be cutting, that means, it's more productive to walk behind. save your arguments, just tune in, 3/15/04, and you will see once and for all, THE PERFECT LAWN MOWING MACHINE




2 Funny :D :D :D :D

TotalLawnConcepts
01-29-2005, 03:23 AM
Riders are for Huge Properties, 4+ acres. Using them on any thing smaller is not only crazy but a bad business decision. You can purchase 2 Walkers to every rider. Just made that purchase myself last year. Now would you rather be mowing 52" - 60" with a Z or would you rather mow 102" with 2 walkers. Plus if you are running employees, it keeps them from being LAZY!!! Walkers are half the weight of a Z and with that cause less damage to your yard. But when it all boils down to it you make the final decision. I use to be on the Z side until I worked and watch 2 walkers out run 1 Z all day long. Yeah you are Tired at the end of the day, But if you don't want to be Tired, PUT YOUR MOWERS UP AND GO SIT BACK AT THAT DESK......

brucec32
01-31-2005, 01:00 AM
I use my time on the lazer z as rest time. The seated relaxed position is much less taxing than a wb/sulky and I assume even a stander type mower. having to support your body weight and then maintain balance in turns and such slowly takes its toll, especially in hot weather.

I would have at least one ZTR, though wb's and standers certainly have their place too.

If 80% of your lawns are ideal for riders, get a rider and pick up a cheap wb for the other 20%. If your lawns are hilly and tiny, a wb or stander type might be better.

Don't be afraid to turn away business if it doesn't suit your equipment setup. And conversely don't go buying equipment specially to handle a few lawns that your main stuff won't do. I have made that mistake. It almost never pays.

I no longer take on any steep hills that my ztr won't handle. The number of them is few, but I'd have to haul around a wb just for them and they wear me out walking behind it. I found that even double the rate wouldn't compensate me for the energy lost and fatigue gained from those type of lawns.

Soupy
01-31-2005, 01:06 AM
Riders are for Huge Properties, 4+ acres. Using them on any thing smaller is not only crazy but a bad business decision. You can purchase 2 Walkers to every rider. Just made that purchase myself last year. Now would you rather be mowing 52" - 60" with a Z or would you rather mow 102" with 2 walkers. Plus if you are running employees, it keeps them from being LAZY!!! Walkers are half the weight of a Z and with that cause less damage to your yard. But when it all boils down to it you make the final decision. I use to be on the Z side until I worked and watch 2 walkers out run 1 Z all day long. Yeah you are Tired at the end of the day, But if you don't want to be Tired, PUT YOUR MOWERS UP AND GO SIT BACK AT THAT DESK......

YEA WELL, 2 Z's will out perform 2 walk behinds :dizzy:. Apples and oranges!

coonman
01-31-2005, 01:50 PM
This topic gets brought up every year. There is a place for both a wb and a rider. A rider would be worthless for our routes (1k-5k sq ft with gates). We have found it more profitable to target small properties and use a fleet of Toro 21's for them. We have very low maintenance costs, very quick and easy to work on them, and they are extremely fuel efficient and always provide a great cut. We did try the Stander and found it to be way too much trouble for these small accounts. We have increased our hourly wage by doing this. Anytime I hear someone say "If I can't ride it I won't bid it" thats fine for us. We will take all the 10-15 minute $25-$30 lawns we can get. If Rodfather says he is more productive with his wb vs his riders than he must be. He has both and is going to use what makes him the most money.

garyslawn
01-31-2005, 04:10 PM
i like wb most properties .5 to 1.0 acres, I did just buy a Sentar which is my question. The controls seem sensitive, and what is the quickest way to change blades? Thanks

lawn_pro
01-31-2005, 08:53 PM
Yeah, use whatever works best for you....I don't think there is any type of way to compare...just depends on what you are using the equipment for..if you have large wide open properties, buy a rider...if you have smaller residential lawns, buy a walk-behind 36 to 48 inch..We use both, you really don't see that many lco's driving around with one mower on the trailer. Use what works and will make you the most $$$. The biggest lawn care co. here has mostly 21" toros with three man crews...they must be making some money or they wouldn't have been around for 20 years.

DennisF
01-31-2005, 09:39 PM
Riders are for Huge Properties, 4+ acres. Using them on any thing smaller is not only crazy but a bad business decision. You can purchase 2 Walkers to every rider. Just made that purchase myself last year. Now would you rather be mowing 52" - 60" with a Z or would you rather mow 102" with 2 walkers. Plus if you are running employees, it keeps them from being LAZY!!! Walkers are half the weight of a Z and with that cause less damage to your yard. But when it all boils down to it you make the final decision. I use to be on the Z side until I worked and watch 2 walkers out run 1 Z all day long. Yeah you are Tired at the end of the day, But if you don't want to be Tired, PUT YOUR MOWERS UP AND GO SIT BACK AT THAT DESK......

If you want to walk all day (4 acres?), that's fine. But a ZTR is the best thing that every happened to this industry. The reduction in operator fatigue using a ZTR will make him more efficient and the business more profitable. Two guys on 52" ZTR's will flat kick the butts of 2 guys with 52" WB's.

You were just kidding about the 4 acre thing...right?

locutus
01-31-2005, 09:46 PM
Who's recycling these old threads?

garyslawn
01-31-2005, 10:27 PM
We use 52' with velkies and i think they are quicker then riders and can b used everwhere

rodfather
01-31-2005, 10:42 PM
Try 6 or so 61" WB's and see what happens with velkies :)