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View Full Version : The nitty gritty on pistol grip hydros


brucec32
02-17-2004, 12:42 AM
I've read all the posts on various steering systems. I know everyone has their favorite. I've used T bars on hydros and belts and think they're superior on belts and problematic on hydros. I know the advantages of the H bar and find some of the other systems interesting.

But that said, I want to know the whole truth, so please put your personal ego investment in your choice aside. Are pistol grips a problem? I have done quick dealership demos on various steering systems, but that's not the same as using it in real life situations, such as hills, under trees, backing out of tight spots, etc.

I have ocassional opportunities to pick up hydro pistol grip mowers for a lot less than a new Hustler hydro, so I have to consider that, especially since my current need is for a 36-44" deck unit that will only see use on occasional gated back yards, berms too steep for a ZTR, small lawns with lots of backing and turns, and as a backup, and even then, only in situations where pulling a 21" mower off the truck quickly won't do. So I won't be able to say I can pay $2500 more now and earn it back in productivity quickly. For technical reasons I need to sell my two belt drive units (one can't mow high enough, the other can't mulch, and neither can back in and out of tight spots w/o wearing me out ) and if I'm making a change I want to go hydro.

If I can manage with a pistol grip that does everything I need and have it not instantly send my hands into cramp mode, then I would consider it. So, is it reasonably relaxing and fatigue-free to use a pistol grip for short periods? Or not?

Fantasy Lawns
02-17-2004, 12:53 AM
We'll I can say from real time experience that my 1st 36" was a Encore 36 with pistol grip ... nice little mower BUT in this 'Southern" enviroment ..... most starter yards ... are small compact .... lot so turns ..... n very hot .... hot summers

So it get's OLD real quick using those grips all the time with the arms out nnn getting sweaty .... that have to make a turn under or near a citrus tree, bougainville or what ever may force you to take your hand to a grip

That old mower is long gone .... BUT I still do have a 36" Snapper Hydro ... that even at it's best is only used on gated backyards .... is a T grip n every one has no problem jumpin on to .... does not match a Z .... but if using a walkbehind Hydro T bar is the only way to go ...... far as I am concerned

You may consider a Walker Z ....throw away ANY thing read on the forum ... if you have never demo'd one .... do it .... atleast see what it does .... Down here .... in my town ..... I could NOT be productive in these small yards with LOTS of obstacles ... N my Walkers mowers ... don't get me wrong I also have Lazer 60" for the big areas

Haley Lawn Care
02-17-2004, 01:32 AM
If you are used to using pistol grips and belt drives most of the day then you will do allright with the pistol grip hydros. After using my hydro for a while and then using the belt drive some I can tell that the hydro is much easier on the hands. My hands would get tired using the belt drive. But using the hydro it takes a lot longer for my hands to get tired.

David :)

PaulJ
02-17-2004, 10:18 AM
Pistol grips are OK. I never really had a problem with them but my hands would get tired by the end of the day. But that would go for any of the "release to go" type controls. Exmark ECS, Snapper loop grip, and others like tis are all basically the same mechanical. They just have the control levers at different angles. and no matter what you are always working against the springs tension to maneuver it. The same goes for the push to go type controls like Great dane, or Wright, Bunton, Toro or any that use ZTR type levers. With these you are always pushing against spring tension to go.

That is what I like about the Hustler. No almost no spring tension. To go forward you turn the handle forward. If you let go it stays almost where you left it. The only tension against it is the pressure of the pumps. There is a spring that hold it in the center so when turning you push against this spring but it is a light spring that is just enough to self center the handle when you are done turning. The same goes for reverse, there is a light spring to help return to neutral. It is very much like driving a steering wheel. That easy. And at the end of the day my hand aren't tired and cramped from squeezing grips all day. you use more of your whole arm to move the controls not just you hands.

So that's why I chose the h-bar. A pistol grip will do all this, just not with the same ease and with more fatigue at the end of a long day.

sorry for the long post.

FrankenScagMachines
02-17-2004, 10:34 AM
Lets compare apples and apples here…. If you don’t have a hydro drive with pistol grips, do not reply. Belt drives with pistol grips are much much more fatiguing than hydros with pistol grips. I know because I’ve used both and I do own a hydro with pistol grips (have owned two actually). They’re not bad Bruce on a hydro. They have one or two things other systems don’t, like for instance you can pop up the front end of the mower easily with the handlebars which I could never do when I tried ECS or H-bar. You can do it on Tbar as you know, but I found it near impossible unless moving forward (more experience would have help I’m sure). The pistol grips allow you to pop up the front end no matter which direction or speed your traveling. This can be nice with a sulky to transfer weight to drive tires to make a turn on a steep hill, or to pop over a problem bump area, cut off low stump that might catch, or going over a berm, whatever the case may be. They’re not very fatiguing unless you’re on them more than 25 or 30 minutes at a time in my experience, and then they’re not too bad especially once you get used to them. I wish there wasn’t so much spring tension against you when in reverse with them and I wish you could go faster in reverse but that’s a pretty minor issue with me so far. I think for what you’re doing they’ll be just fine.

imograss
02-17-2004, 11:31 AM
Pistol grips never bother me.

dfor
02-17-2004, 11:39 AM
I agree with what Frankenscag said. I don't have big hands, and I do not get fatigued with the hydro. I actually like the pistol grips. And I think they are a little easier than on belt driven machines.

Turf Technologies
02-17-2004, 11:43 AM
If you have big hands then you have no worries, if not you will cramp up after 30mins or more of mowing at the least, until your use to it. A postive about pistol grips, you will have some strong hands in a few months.

BRIAN GALLO
02-17-2004, 12:23 PM
Bruce,

When I had pistol grips my main gripe was never with having hand pain, it was with other factors. For instance, If you aren't real careful you're always hitting your hands off of things you try to trim next to (hedges, fences, trees etc.). Another problem was with making 180 turns at the end of runs. If I was on a sulky I had to make all kinds of body gyrations to avoid getting hit in the stomach by the grips. Also the reach to the outer handle gets pretty far too. If you were to run a castering sulky this would not be a problem however. The best control system I ever used personally was the Snapper loops. They are solid and comfortable and have plenty of room to move your hands around in turns - hitting your hands off of objects is a non-issue with them. I run the Toro's now with t-bar, which to me is almost as good as the Snapper loops were. The hydro t-bar is a bit jittery though. I wish Toro would adapt the ecs steering, because that to me looks like a winner.

brucec32
02-17-2004, 02:05 PM
Yeah, Brian. That could get ugly, especially since I'm not as careful as I probably should be out there.

John Gamba
02-17-2004, 03:01 PM
ANYTHING but pistol grips!!!!!!!!Oh the OPC on the ECS sucks too.But i do like the ECS.
John

johnhenry
02-17-2004, 05:15 PM
Pistol grips have come along way and for the better the past few years .But in my past 20 years doing lawn care.Ive seen lots of guys get hand damage from using pistol and other grips.H bar system is so much more easy to operate with.You might say now your hands dont hurt you. But contunie to use grips and you might pay a price later in life.And the guys who have and continue to use pistol grips.There will be hand problems down the road.Dont be a penny wise and a dollar foolish

Hawkeye5
02-17-2004, 06:48 PM
Pistol grips are fine for you young fellas, but can you say "carpel tunnel syndrom?' Do you want to look like Popeye? ECS is easy on an old guy, and will pay benefits for young guys. Nothing but hydro. Belt drive is a long term problem that you will not realize until it is too late!

TJLC
02-17-2004, 07:53 PM
My old Exmark Viking hydro had pistol grips and it wasn't bad once you got used to it. My new TTHP's both have ECS controls which, IMHO are a big improvement over the old style grips. Iv'e never tried the t-bar or the h-bar so I can't comment on those.

locutus
02-17-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
ANYTHING but pistol grips!!!!!!!!Oh the OPC on the ECS sucks too.But i do like the ECS.
John

I couldn't agree more. I have raked both OPC handles off of my Exmark. If you have to remove your hands from the ECS controls in an emergency situation I.E. about to crush your fingers against a tree, the first thing that catches is the OPC handle that gets bent all to crap in the process.

I can hear some of you now "better the OPC control than your fingers" and I agree on that point, but a better OPC control system could be engineered for the Exmarks.

John Gamba
02-18-2004, 06:13 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by locutus
[B]I couldn't agree more. I have raked both OPC handles off of my Exmark. If you have to remove your hands from the ECS controls in an emergency situation I.E. about to crush your fingers against a tree, the first thing that catches is the OPC handle that gets bent all to crap in the process.

I can hear some of you now "better the OPC control than your fingers" and I agree on that point, but a better OPC control system could be engineered for the Exmarks.

If you remove the OPC's from the ECS it feels soooooo gooooddd.
John

Danimal
02-18-2004, 09:08 AM
I've used the tbar on toro and pistol grips on exmark and lesco. I prefer th epistol grips they will cause your hand to be soar when you start to use them but they get used to it and I like having strong hands.I do find it easier to make good staight lines with pistol grips. I can make them just as good with the tbar but it requires more micro adjustments. I think they are just a little more jumpy.

gogetter
02-18-2004, 09:32 AM
To add to what Brian said about Snapper, I have a hydro Snapper with the loops. The problem I have is it is a bit older so the reach is pretty far stretched! And after a while it can become pretty uncomfortable.

However, the newer Snappers have much less of a reach and would be much more comfortable.

Also look at the Huskys. Very short reach on the controls. I think they'd be very easy on the hands.

And both of these designs tuck your hands out of harms way.

Doc Pete
02-18-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by johnhenry
Pistol grips have come along way and for the better the past few years .But in my past 20 years doing lawn care.Ive seen lots of guys get hand damage from using pistol and other grips.H bar system is so much more easy to operate with.You might say now your hands dont hurt you. But contunie to use grips and you might pay a price later in life.And the guys who have and continue to use pistol grips.There will be hand problems down the road.Dont be a penny wise and a dollar foolish

Bruce,
No need to start the Hustler/emark wars, but as John has said, when you're making all the money each year, what the heck is the difference if you spend a extra now to enjoy the benefits for years to come. OK, enough about that.
I've said it before, but if you want to stay with pistol grips, they can be made as soft as butter by either using a spacer to decrease the spring tension or buying a softer spring from a True Value store.
FYI, the only reason pistol grips are hard to pull is to allow "reverse to work" without slipping. And this is because the tensioner pulley only works correctly, which is on the "take up" side, when you drive forward. When you go into reverse, the tensioner "tensions" the drive side and unless it's extremely tight, it allows the belts to slip around the drive pulley.
So, in a nutshell, you can use a spring that's so light it allows the use of just one finger to pull the lever, and will still supply enough tensioner to keep the belt from slipping under normal conditions.
DP

Haley Lawn Care
02-18-2004, 10:04 PM
It is a pain to mow with a belt drive in wet grass. The belts slip and grass builds up around the pulleys. But a hydro just keeps on going. Get something thats hydro.

David :)

brucec32
02-21-2004, 03:21 AM
Interesting Pete on the way to soften up the grips. But after simply spraying weeds today and having my hand cramp (I broke it years ago pounding someone in the head and the bone is still cockeyed in there and causes problems) I think I will go demo a gravely prosteer and a Hustler hydro when I get time. Pennywise and pound foolish does apply, I should know that by now.

It will be for gates and rare Florida slopes here. So the only negative for me on the Hustler is the 37" width, just a tad big for its main intended use. I hear they are coming out with a 36" deck, but can't get any more details on their new design. And I can't EVER find a used one. That must be a good sign.

Doc Pete
02-21-2004, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by brucec32
Interesting Pete on the way to soften up the grips. But after simply spraying weeds today and having my hand cramp (I broke it years ago pounding someone in the head and the bone is still cockeyed in there and causes problems) I think I will go demo a gravely prosteer and a Hustler hydro when I get time. Pennywise and pound foolish does apply, I should know that by now
Bruce,
This is true. First, no matter how much you save on purchasing an item, if it physically impacts you to the point you can’t work, what good is it.
Also, considering the money we make in this type of job, spending $1,000 extra on a new machine you will have for a long is a no brainer.
I remember some people had thought a was foolish for buying a leave blower for my Hustler, since I only use it for only 1.5 months a year. However, this year with all the leaves, I was clearing $700 each Saturday for the month of November.
Do yourself a favor, give the Hustler more than an hour to demo. Being so different, take a few hours to try it.

FrankenScagMachines
02-21-2004, 07:43 AM
Pete, you inspired me... I went out and looked at my eXmark the other day and got the controls adjusted so they're 3x's softer! They were a little out of alignment so I got them all straightened up too. I will have to get a few pics and tell everyone how to re-adjust their hydro w/b controls to make them work better and be simetric and as comfortable as possible. thanks.
Eric

Doc Pete
02-21-2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Pete, you inspired me... I went out and looked at my eXmark the other day and got the controls adjusted so they're 3x's softer! They were a little out of alignment so I got them all straightened up too. I will have to get a few pics and tell everyone how to re-adjust their hydro w/b controls to make them work better and be simetric and as comfortable as possible. thanks.
Eric

Yup, The pistol grip system is simple mechanics, and the only tension needed on the pulley is enough to keep the slack out of the return side.
Just wait, when you finally get a Hustler I'll send you one my Cruise controls to try.:D
DP

gogetter
02-21-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by gogetter
Also look at the Huskys. Very short reach on the controls. I think they'd be very easy on the hands.


Seems like everytime I get a new trade magazine in the mail lately, there is a new style of controls on the walk behinds.

Here's a list of manufacturers that have different controls (several are new for this year).

Cub Cadet
Gravely
Husky
Yazoo/Kees (real neat looking design there)
Wrights' Velke (technically a W/B so I included it here)
Jacobsen

Some that aren't so new:

Toro
Snapper
Huslter
Great Dane Scamper

And probably a couple others I've forgot. I really like seeing the manufacturers working on new stuff and improving designs.

Jim H
02-21-2004, 05:31 PM
rookie question. What is the OPC on the ECS system? Know about the ECS, but not sure what "OPC" stands for. Thanks!

John Gamba
02-21-2004, 05:53 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim H
[B]rookie question. What is the OPC on the ECS system? Know about the ECS, but not sure what "OPC" stands for. Thanks! [/B

It operator present control. Its the leavers that you put your palms on. Its the leavers that if you let go on the handle bars it will shut off the engine.
John

FrankenScagMachines
02-21-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Yup, The pistol grip system is simple mechanics, and the only tension needed on the pulley is enough to keep the slack out of the return side.
Just wait, when you finally get a Hustler I'll send you one my Cruise controls to try.:D
DP
Mine is hydro, alot more complex control adjustments than a belt. I know how belts work too ;)
Whaddya mean “when you finally get a hustler”? what makes you think I am going to get one? The minute they put baffles all the way through the front of the deck like eXmark and it performs just as good as the eXmark deck, and if they figure a way to make it very precise around obstacles and in close quarters like my eXmark is, then I would consider one. But not until then! If I wanted a big walk behind I’d be looking at an eXmark Turf Tracer with ECS. Comfortable, lets you get accurately and precisely close to obstacles and the deck can’t be beat! I like to control each wheel. I like H-bar but it won't let me decide how to run the machine (individual wheels) I do like it for wide high speed mowing.

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 06:35 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
If I wanted a big walk behind I’d be looking at an eXmark Turf Tracer with ECS. Comfortable, lets you get accurately and precisely close to obstacles and the deck can’t be beat!

Eric
I think Exmark will up the HP's on the Turf Tracer and the speed. Hay have you tried the ultracut Yet? If you would like to take a weekend off and come over when its growing here you can take the lazer out.
John

OH!! Good Morning Pete!!

Doc Pete
02-22-2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by John Gamba
OH!! Good Morning Pete!! [/B]

Hey John,
What's new.....:D
DP

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 07:22 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc Pete
[B]Hey John,
What's new.....:D
DP

Not a dam thing:angel:

Doc Pete
02-22-2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
The minute they figure a way to make it very precise around obstacles and in close quarters like my eXmark is, then I would consider one. But not until then!.

Hey Eric,
Now don't start showing us your age. You've been doing so well lately:o. Just because "you" can't seem master the ease of the H bar, don't suggest it's the mower's fault.
Actually, if you'd like to explain why you "think" the ECS is more precise, I'm all ears. For openers though, being able to control each wheel with a separate hand is just that, nothing more. Along with that, however, goes the demand for "you" to mix and sync both hands for every movement other that wide open. The H bar mixes and syncs the controls for you.
Normally, I wouldn't bother ranting, but I get tired of listening to your "opinion", which is incorrect, rather than fact. OK, so explain away, Oh master........
DP

Doc Pete
02-22-2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by John Gamba
I think Exmark will up the HP's on the Turf Tracer and the speed. Hay have you tried the ultracut Yet? If you would like to take a weekend off and come over when its growing here you can take the lazer out. [/B]

John,
If and when they up the speed to 10 mph, the ECS controls will become to "touchy" to control well. OTOH, if they lengthen the lever stroke to keep the levers from being too sensitive, most guy's won't have hands big enough to work the controls.
Frankly, this could be Eric's problem he has with Hustlers. Once, you start running the higher speeds with "any" machine, if there is slop in the controls, preciseness will suffer. And, judging by the machines I've seen at my dealer, I'll bet the Hustler Eric is using has a fair amount of slop in it.
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-22-2004, 09:37 AM
The problem w/ any joined lever control system like H-Bar or T-Bar is that it somewhat limits the operators control over individual wheels during z-turns. While the H-Bar is an evolution of the T-Bar, the joined bar still necessitates more three point turns than one would have if using a pistol or ECS type control. As BHB said, for wide area mowing w/velke this becomes less important & comfort level may become priority.

We do many 2-4k sq. ft landscaped lots w/ECS hydro units & have never heard complaints of operator fatigue. Pistols are also great for tipping the front of the deck & hill stability but ECS is a nice trade-off for comfort.

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
[B]The problem w/ any joined lever control system like H-Bar or T-Bar is that it somewhat limits the operators control over individual wheels during z-turns. While the H-Bar is an evolution of the T-Bar, the joined bar still necessitates more three point turns than one would have if using a pistol or ECS type control. As BHB said, for wide area mowing w/velke this becomes less important & comfort level may become priority.

We do many 2-4k sq. ft landscaped lots w/ECS hydro units & have never heard complaints of operator fatigue. Pistols are also great for tipping the front of the deck & hill stability but ECS is a nice trade-off for comfort.

I do like the ECS but hate:angry: the OPC's, exmark should get off there butt.
John

Doc Pete
02-22-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
The problem w/ any joined lever control system like H-Bar or T-Bar is that it somewhat limits the operators control over individual wheels during z-turns. While the H-Bar is an evolution of the T-Bar, the joined bar still necessitates more three point turns than one would have if using a pistol or ECS type control. As BHB said, for wide area mowing w/velke this becomes less important & comfort level may become priority.

Actually, BHB and yourself are totally correct, for guy’s that fail to take the time to learn the H bar. In addition, since the H bar is nothing like the T bar, it further exemplifies my first statement.
Sadly, and what surprises me is, anyone with mechanical experience realizes a drastic change to something like the H bar requires time to adjust to, yet you two show your inexperience by your opinions of the H bar.

Statements such as, “the joined bar still necessitates more three point turns than one would have if using a pistol or ECS type control”, are as most of your other inputs, just incorrect. But, like many things, you feel if you say a lie long enough, it will become true. The fact is, it’s still just incorrect.
I remember a while back I offered to pay you $100 for video of you doing a turn zero turn with your WB without slowing down, or devoting the grass (which is what you said you could do). I still stand by that statement and offer the $100.
However, I know a “zero turn at speed is impossible”, and those of us that actually mow for a living realize this. But, as you always do, when confronted with the true, you just change the subject line. As a child, BHB (at 17) has an excuse, you as an adult, don't.

As I will continue to do for the sake of newbie’s, each time you put up a post full of lies, just for the sake of effect, I will prove you wrong and show you for the person you really are.
Have a nice day,
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-22-2004, 11:34 AM
John, what don't you like about the OPC? I've had a couple where they dig into the space between thumb & index finger but a little adjustment can correct this.

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
[B]John, what don't you like about the OPC? I've had a couple where they dig into the space between thumb & index finger but a little adjustment can correct this.

If you take them off you will see what i'm talking about.
John

Doc Pete
02-22-2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
[BI do like the ECS but hate:angry: the OPC's, exmark should get off there butt.
John [/B]

John,
I Like to here that. Exmark has a great deck, but I’m glad to see a person like yourself is adult enough to point out other shortcomings in a product design. Hey, I have no problem pointing out shortcoming in Hustlers’ designs. And, looky what happened…….. we now have a new generation of WB, the SWB.
I’m sure you’re not “bad mouthing” Exmark, but you’re attempting to bring to light something Exmark should be aware of. Furthermore, all you’re trying to do is “improve” a good product, which is commendable.
Finally, the end result of “MY” complaints, was the birth of the SWB, which “now” all of us can reap the benefits. With the clout that you have, hopefully, Exmark will improve their product and the rest of us can enjoy the benefits.
DP

PaulJ
02-22-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by gogetter
Seems like everytime I get a new trade magazine in the mail lately, there is a new style of controls on the walk behinds.

Here's a list of manufacturers that have different controls (several are new for this year).

Cub Cadet
Gravely
Husky
Yazoo/Kees (real neat looking design there)
Wrights' Velke (technically a W/B so I included it here)
Jacobsen

Some that aren't so new:

Toro
Snapper
Huslter
Great Dane Scamper



And probably a couple others I've forgot. I really like seeing the manufacturers working on new stuff and improving designs.

Lets add to the list

Bunton
Lesco


As far as fareway and eric not being able to turn the way they are used to using the h-bar
(I am asuming that both have tried it)

That comes from runing two lever systems so long.

It took me a few days (not hours) to get up to speed.

You CAN control each wheel, you just have to get used to the control.

During most of my turns the outside wheel u-turn while the inside wheel 3-points. I do it as one smooth motion, never stopping. NO diviots either.



I can also raise the front of my hustler walkbehind with the handles.
I havn't had any problem wihtthe deck not working the way I want it to.

Any other quesitons?

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 01:08 PM
I didnt push hard enough on somethings. I did on the ultra on the TT.
I'm going to push real hard this year,wait till you see how i do it. I was going to get the SWB but the deck does need some work, I hear they are doing that:cool: we will see!!
John

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 01:15 PM
Oh and another thing. exmark does NOT want anything said before the dealers are informed, I said YOUR DEALERS have 20 different things they sell and could care about BEING INFORMED. They care about the bottom line!!!!!
If i want to tell my comrades about something that could help them make an informed decision before a season starts thats good for us.
with out US there is no distributer, Mower maker or DEALER.
So lets get them to inform us first. then we go to the dealer and make an order,NOT wait for them to get off there asses to find out.

John

Fareway Lawncare
02-22-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by John Gamba
[QUOTE][i]

If you take them off you will see what i'm talking about.
John

I have them adjusted so you can't even tell they are there..Without me taking them off can you describe the problem.

& Doc as usual this is what I read " blah blah blah If you don't like H-Bar you're a lier blah blah blah I sleep with my H-bar blah blah blah"

PaulJ, I must say it's refreshing to hear from an H-Bar user with a sense of professionalism. Can you exactly control the speed of each individual wheel as you turn as you can w/ seperate levers? I don't mean machine assisted, I'm talking about through operator input on each individual wheel during the z-turn.

odin
02-22-2004, 02:06 PM
casey .. ultimate lawn ...slim shady.. fareway lawn=<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_2_5.gif' border=0></a>

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
I sleep with my H-bar blah blah blah"

Well i sleep with my Lazer EPS

John Gamba
02-22-2004, 02:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
[B]I have them adjusted so you can't even tell they are there..Without me taking them off can you describe the problem.

its like pushing on a metal bar. Instead of a round SOFT bar its a round SOFT bar with a thick metal bar on it.
How do you have yours adjusted??
Do you have a pic? And not one of those put together ones, No offense.
John

Doc Pete
02-22-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
& Doc as usual this is what I read " blah blah blah If you don't like H-Bar you're a lier blah blah blah I sleep with my H-bar blah blah blah"

Casey, Ultimate Lawns, Fareway Lawns, Frassygrass or whatever your name is today, as is your“Signature” for offering misinformation, everyone realizes your “take” on my post is “purposely incorrect”. Frankly, as your twisting of information becomes more apparent, I’m happy to see others finally see how you manipulate a post, just to disrupt the forum.
BTW, did you upload the video of you zero turning your (oops’ someone’s’) WB without slowing????
Thanks,
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-22-2004, 04:12 PM
John G., I found even a 1/4" adjustment on the OPC either will make a big difference in how they feel. I've had them come on new units, slightly out of line & it rubs the hands but if you manipulate them over slightly they are fine.

advantagelawn
02-22-2004, 11:57 PM
Pistol grip is the only way to go. Under trees, on side hills, over curbs and practically any other obstacle without hesitation. You have much more control over the mower with pistol grips, your weight is over the handles, rather than on the ground behind the machine. Fatigue is a minor factor, especially when compared to being in control of the mower, not having it control you.

KathysLGC
02-23-2004, 09:04 AM
I have a Ferris Hydro with pistol grips and i get no fatigue. The grips are soft and cushiony. The distance can also be slightly adjusted to fit smaller hands but you might decrease the top speed of the mower. i have use belt and hydro with pistol grips and the hydro really isn't that bad.

PaulJ
02-23-2004, 10:36 AM
Yes faraway. I can control the wheels independently if I want to. If you know how the linkage works and don't fight it and learn to use it you could too.

Did yo read the part about turns? When I turn the outside wheel makes a U turn wihtout stopping while the inside wheel makes a three point turn. I'll try to figgure out how to draw you a picture later.

But personally I like to let the machine do some of the balancing and mixing of control. It's smoother and easier than working against two levers. What's really nice is going along or under trees I can let go with the hand that would normally have to be in the tree and not sacrifice any control.

I am not knocking pistol grips. I ran them myself for a few years, but the h-bar is just so different it's hard to compare. I can't think of any reason I would want to buy another machine with pistol grips OR levers.

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by PaulJ
Did yo read the part about turns? When I turn the outside wheel makes a U turn wihtout stopping while the inside wheel makes a three point turn. I'll try to figgure out how to draw you a picture later.

But personally I like to let the machine do some of the balancing and mixing of control. It's smoother and easier than working against two levers. What's really nice is going along or under trees I can let go with the hand that would normally have to be in the tree and not sacrifice any control.

Paul, I’m sure you realize you are correct in your thoughts. Likewise, I hope you realize that taking up “bandwidth” by drawing picture, which is not needed for anyone with intelligence, is exactly what “Fareway” aka “UL” wants you to do. For reasons only know to a mentally inept slimasaus such as UL, wasting your time and effort is what he enjoys.
Frankly, we all know anything done automatically is simpler/easier than done manually…….
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-23-2004, 11:54 AM
Yes Paul but when you are 3/4 into your z-turn are you still able to control the speed of each wheel independently or has the machine taken over? I don't see how the inside wheel can do a 3 point turn.

Doc, please restrain yourself from answering as you seem unable to participate in a constructive manner.

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Yes Paul but when you are 3/4 into your z-turn are you still able to control the speed of each wheel independently or has the machine taken over? I don't see how the inside wheel can do a 3 point turn..

Senior Ultimate lawns,

Paul just isn’t as dumb you are attempting to prove. No, he isn’t going to take the time to explain what you “already” know, just so you can tell him he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
We’ve been down this road many times before and you’re sick humor of getting us to explain how things work, “only to tell us” we don’t know what we are talking about, is one of the sadly excuses for a human being there is.
We’ve all got your number, and just won’t play your game……………
DP

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
I don't see how the inside wheel can do a 3 point turn.


And thank you for proving how evil you are. On one hand you seem to "know and own" every piece of machinery ever made, yet on the other hand, you don't even understand how to do a 3 point turn..... Ah, I love it.... just keep showing how you play the "I know everything, but nothing game" just to con the rest of us..........
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-23-2004, 03:00 PM
Hello Doc, please be clear...I am referring to the operators ability to control the speed of each wheel independently during a ZERO turn...not a 3-point turn. If PaulJ is referring to controlling the wheels independently during a 3 point turn then we are discussing a slower turning procedure.

Again, can you control the speed of each wheel independently during a ZERO turn or does the machine control the speed? I'm not sure why this question angers you so much but if PaulJ has an answer it would be appreciated.

dobehap
02-23-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
And thank you for proving how evil you are. On one hand you seem to "know and own" every piece of machinery ever made, yet on the other hand, you don't even understand how to do a 3 point turn..... Ah, I love it.... just keep showing how you play the "I know everything, but nothing game" just to con the rest of us..........
DP

Doc, back off.

If you listen carefully you might learn something yourself. I'm much awaiting some info from this conversation, that is if you back of and let it happen.

Fareway does have a unuque style, but I do see a lot of good in his posts. His anger management is better than yours too
:angel:

So leave him alone and learn to ignore him if you cant stand him this much. I for one, find constuctive information from his posts.

John Gamba
02-23-2004, 03:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
[B]John G., I found even a 1/4" adjustment on the OPC either will make a big difference in how they feel. I've had them come on new units, slightly out of line & it rubs the hands but if you manipulate them over slightly they are fine.

Thanks F/L I'll try it!!

HarryD
02-23-2004, 03:40 PM
Use what ya like is what I say. All mower configurations have there good and bad points. I myself like pistol grip mowers :D

Pete
I still think you should be selling hustlers :rolleyes: the way you push them

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by dobehap
so leave him alone and learn to ignore him if you cant stand him this much. I for one, find constuctive information from his posts.

So, I guess your problem is the last 2 times I gave a full explanation of how the H bar worked, how to turn it, and exactly the pros and cons of it, you were busy looking only at Fareway’s rebuttal (at that time it was Ultimate lawn), instead of reading my post.
Furthermore, since UL seems to have a vast working knowledge of everything under the sun, by all his posts and pics of all types of equipment he owns (?), how come he doesn’t grasp the function of the H bar.
In addition, since he doesn’t even know “how to turn the H bar”, which is apparent by “his question”, he’s got absolutely no business talking about whether it’s better or worse than ECS.
BUT WAIT…………… the funny thing he’s always saying ECS is better, and explains what you can’t do with the H bar.
So……………. What is it????. Either he knows how to control the H bar….which he seems to by making opinions about it, or he doesn’t…………. which by his question proves he doesn’t.
Don’t you get????? This is way….. He loves to play with all of you, you included.

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by dobehap
If you listen carefully you might learn something yourself. I'm much awaiting some info from this conversation, that is if you back of and let it happen.


Maybe you need to go back and UL's post and I quote:

**The problem w/ any joined lever control system like H-Bar or T-
Bar is that it somewhat limits the operators control over individual wheels during z-turns. While the H-Bar is an evolution of the T-Bar, the joined bar still necessitates more three point turns than one would have if using a pistol or ECS type control***

Gees, it sure seems to me Mr. UL thinks he knows all about the H bar, However, if he does, then he wouldn't be asking the question he is. And furthermore, by his incorrect opinion that "the joined bar still necessitates more three point turns than one would have if using a pistol or ECS type control", it proves he doesn't know how to use the H bar. However, when I point out he's wrong, all he says is, "blah, blah, blah"...........
Ya know, I have 3 H bars, redesigned the machine into the SWB, and designed a very useful cruise control for it, yet you choose to listen to someone who doesn't even know how to turn the machine correctly......
Maybe you need a course in processing how to find useful information.........
DP

rob1325
02-23-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Lets compare apples and apples here…. If you don’t have a hydro drive with pistol grips, do not reply. Belt drives with pistol grips are much much more fatiguing than hydros with pistol grips. I know because I’ve used both and I do own a hydro with pistol grips (have owned two actually). They’re not bad Bruce on a hydro. They have one or two things other systems don’t, like for instance you can pop up the front end of the mower easily with the handlebars which I could never do when I tried ECS or H-bar. You can do it on Tbar as you know, but I found it near impossible unless moving forward (more experience would have help I’m sure). The pistol grips allow you to pop up the front end no matter which direction or speed your traveling. This can be nice with a sulky to transfer weight to drive tires to make a turn on a steep hill, or to pop over a problem bump area, cut off low stump that might catch, or going over a berm, whatever the case may be. They’re not very fatiguing unless you’re on them more than 25 or 30 minutes at a time in my experience, and then they’re not too bad especially once you get used to them. I wish there wasn’t so much spring tension against you when in reverse with them and I wish you could go faster in reverse but that’s a pretty minor issue with me so far. I think for what you’re doing they’ll be just fine.

FrankenScagMachines said it right. I have demoed Hustler, Exmark, Snapper, & regular pistol grips and have same opinions as FrankenScagMachines. I use my walk behinds for hills, uneven grounds, tight areas, and going up many curbs at complexes. I use my ZTR's for the other areas. I found pistol works for my situations, due for my need of constantly lift front deck. If I was using for open areas and not much need for lifting front deck then others would be my choose.

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by dobehap
Doc, back off

Ya know what..... your right. Just keeping listening to UL...........

Fareway Lawncare
02-23-2004, 07:14 PM
Why can't you answer a simple question? Can you control the speed of each wheel independently during a ZERO turn NOT a 3-point turn, w/H-Bar or does the machine control the speed?

If you can contain yourself, please refrain from any statements beond a Yes or No answer.

Doc Pete
02-23-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Why can't you answer a simple question? Can you control the speed of each wheel independently during a ZERO turn NOT a 3-point turn

Yes...........
However, as the expert you profess to be, by always bad mouthing the H bar compared to the ECS (from your vast knowledge), you already knew the answer was yes......
DP

PaulJ
02-24-2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by faraway Lawncare
Why can't you answer a simple question? Can you control the speed of each wheel independently during a ZERO turn NOT a 3-point turn, w/H-Bar or does the machine control the speed?

.

Faraway,

be patient/ I don't sit here and wait to reply to you.

Yes

The operator of the machine controls it, thus controlling the speed of each wheel, independently.

I've got some time(insomnia) so let's start at the beginning for the guys that aren't familiar with the h-bar.

To go forward-twist the horizontal bar forward

to slow down and reverse twist the horizontal bar back

to turn to the right or left-pull that side of the bar back

to straighten out-relax and return the bar to center

to slow one wheel down and not speed up the other
(pay attention now)-simply pull back on one side while also twisting the bar back at the same time.(this moves only the linkage of the one side instead of both)(if you can walk and chew gum, you can do this)

to Zero turn- pull back on one side and twist the bar back at the same time until the inside wheel is going in reverse and the outside wheel is still going forward. Then twist the bar back forward while returning it to center and you are heading the other way.



Pete, did I miss anything? It comes so natural that it's hard to explain.

The machine never takes over. It's not going to do anything you don't let it do. I maintain control of my mower.

I don't know how to make it any clearer so that's about all I can tell you.



Pete, I know this is sort of like pissin' in the wind

Oh, here's some pictures I just scanned.

Fareway Lawncare
02-24-2004, 02:18 AM
Hello PaulJ, thank you for your concise descriptions.

When you are 3/4 of the way through a ZERO turn are you able to slightly & precisely adjust the spin speed of each individual wheel as you can w/individual levers controlling each pump & wheel motor?

Doc Pete
02-24-2004, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Hello PaulJ, thank you for your concise descriptions.

When you are 3/4 of the way through a ZERO turn are you able to slightly & precisely adjust the spin speed of each individual wheel as you can w/individual levers controlling each pump & wheel motor?

YES........ YES........ YES>>.................
What's the problem UL???? Now that we've blown a hole in your attempt to say ECS is better than the H bar, what's your next strategy????????? First you call me a liar, I guess now you can call Paul a liar, too.

I love this, the height of ineptness…You talking about the drawbacks the h bar, only to find you don’t even know how to use it. Bravo, Wonderman.
I Hope “Terry” from Exmark begins readings these posts and realizes he should really distance himself from you, because you disgrace the good repetition Exmark has.

Fareway Lawncare
02-24-2004, 10:35 AM
Doc, you're paranoid...there is no strategy & no one is calling you a lier.

When I tried the unit I had difficulty controlling the speed of the individual wheels while in the z-turn which led to more divoting than I would experience w/ a twin lever system.

Regardless, thanks to your eloquant & professional responses to my question I will certainly give it another go at the earliest opportunity.

swim
02-24-2004, 11:30 AM
I used walkbehinds exclusively with the pistol grips for many years and as I got older it began to hurt my hands after 7 or 8 hours thats when I switched to ridding but now my rear gets sore, guess I'll get used to it eventually. I still use pistols for sevral areas and it doesn't bother me if I just use them for an hour or two per day, I'm sure that any grip would bother you after 7 or 8 hours though. I think they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

Doc Pete
02-24-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Regardless, thanks to your eloquant & professional responses to my question I will certainly give it another go at the earliest opportunity.

My sincere apologies, too. Being that you submitted in an earlier post that the h bar was slower in turns, do to it’s linked linkage, and that I’ve already had this debate 3 times in the last year with you, I naturally “assumed” you remembered these things. Oh well, my mistake…………
Hey, our church now has free seminars for people like yourself with ADD. Let me know if you’d like a brochure……..
DP

PaulJ
02-24-2004, 11:39 AM
I thought I was done.:rolleyes:

When you are 3/4 of the way through a ZERO turn are you able to slightly & precisely adjust the spin speed of each individual wheel as you can w/individual levers controlling each pump & wheel motor?

Yes

to slow one wheel down and not speed up the other (pay attention now)-simply pull back on one side while also twisting the bar back at the same time.(this moves only the linkage of the one side instead of both)(if you can walk and chew gum, you can do this)

You coordinate your movements. Twist the bar forward or back while turning the handle to the left or right at the same time.
Go back to your dealer and look underneath the handle at the linkages. Look really close. You will see a separate rod going from the handle to each pump. then move the controls some and you might be able to see how it works.

If you are used to two lever controls (like I was) then it takes some practice. I had to learn not to fight the linkage but work with it. Think about the first time you tried a pistol grip. It probably wasn't very natural, was it?


OK
back to the original question. If you can find a good pistol grip mower, and they don't bother you, and your hands don't hurt at the end of a day, and you like everything else about ti-then go ahead and buy it.
I like the h-bar best. It is my main mower and I am the only one running it. My hands were starting to show signs of age and using the pistol grips didn't help. I decided not to compromise anything on this mower and the hustler was the only one that had all the features I wanted, including an alternative to pistol grips.

And now I am

:cool: :) :D :D :waving: :cool2: :laugh: :jester: :D :D

happy.

Doc Pete
02-24-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by PaulJ
I thought I was done.:rolleyes: :cool: :) :D :D :waving: :cool2: :laugh: :jester: :D :D happy.

Paul, you screwed things up for UL. Since you know what are talking about, he'd have call you a liar, too. Now that you've burst his bubble, he's taking the sweet talk approach. Glad to see another guy has finally seen the light.
So far we've got Odin, Older than dirt, you and me, that realize what UL is like.........

BTW, nice machine:D
PETE

Fareway Lawncare
02-24-2004, 05:05 PM
PaulJ, thanks for your input. If you had addressed the concerns I had w/the system instead of Doc last season when I was considering a Hustler Walk I may have ended up with one.

Fareway Lawncare
02-25-2004, 01:22 PM
Hi PaulJ, I hate to beat a dead hose but I was a little confused by your answer. I understand that you can alter the speed of the zero turn but by altering it you are altering both the forward spinning wheel & the backward spinning wheel because the bar is joined (please remember I am stating this from limited personal experience). You cannot alter the speed spin of each wheel seperatly while the unit is zero turning as you can w/twin levers regardless of the twin linkages.

As I said, I was confused by your statements & called Hustler directly & this is what I was told "the zero turn is automatic...you can increse or decrease the speed of the zero turn...when you increase the speed during the turn you get the same increase in wheel spin between the forward & backward spinning tire."

This means that the answer to my original question should have been No.

What I am trying to decifer is if you can alter the wheel spin of the forward spinning tire without affecting the wheel spin of the backward spinning tire & or alter both the forward & backward spinning to DIFFERENT speeds during the turn.

Please understand PaulJ I am just trying to clarify this point because it takes me over 2hrs to drive to test a unit which I have allready done once.

Either, you misunderstood the question or I am misunderstanding your response.

As a side not I am not slamming this product nor am I promoting another.

mowerconsultant
02-25-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Please understand PaulJ I am just trying to clarify this point because it takes me over 2hrs to drive to test a unit which I have allready done once.

I have asked you this before, when you went by Ultimate Lawns, when and where did you demo a unit ?
Please tell us.

Pj

Fareway Lawncare
02-25-2004, 05:51 PM
Hello mowerconsultant, I'm certain Doc has sent you e-mails attempting to discredit everything I post as Hustler Bashing. I would hope that if Hustler is the professional company I assume they are, that they will not get caught up in the petty games he instigates.

I will PM you the information you requested & if you can PM me a reply to my preceeding post I would be most appreciative.

Doc Pete
02-25-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Hi PaulJ, I hate to beat a dead hose but I was a little confused by your answer. I understand that you can alter the speed of the zero turn but by altering it you are altering both the forward spinning wheel & the backward spinning wheel because the bar is joined (please remember I am stating this from limited personal experience). You cannot alter the speed spin of each wheel seperatly while the unit is zero turning as you can w/twin levers regardless of the twin linkages. OOP’s I’m sorry UL, your statement of “You cannot alter the speed spin of each wheel seperatly while the unit is zero turning as you can w/twin levers regardless of the twin linkages”, is wrong. There’s your problem. The answer is ‘YES” you “can” alter the speed of each wheel separetly while the unit is zero turning or anything else.
Now, if you continue to tell “us” what’s right and wrong, disregarding the correct information, while making up your own, then any further posting is fruitless.

As I said, I was confused by your statements & called Hustler directly & this is what I was told "the zero turn is automatic...you can increse or decrease the speed of the zero turn...when you increase the speed during the turn you get the same increase in wheel spin between the forward & backward spinning tire."

This means that the answer to my original question should have been No.
Again, since the answer is yes and not no, if you continue to tell “us” what’s right and wrong, disregarding the correct information, while making up your own, then any further posting is fruitless.


What I am trying to decifer is if you can alter the wheel spin of the forward spinning tire without affecting the wheel spin of the backward spinning tire & or alter both the forward & backward spinning to DIFFERENT speeds during the turn.
For the third time the answer is YES........ What part of yes don't you understand????

Please understand PaulJ I am just trying to clarify this point because it takes me over 2hrs to drive to test a unit which I have allready done once.

Either, you misunderstood the question or I am misunderstanding your response.[Actually, you are not misunderstanding Paul’s response, but rather you choose to delight in any attempt’s to discredit the H bar. But, it’s been a good try. As I mentioned, there are help classes even in Canada for people with ADD or ADDS

Frankly, doesn’t it embarass you just a wee bit to pretend to be so thick, that when presented with the “mechanics of a Wheel barrow” you are mystified?

Fareway Lawncare
02-25-2004, 06:42 PM
What should embarass you, is your inability to carry on a debate without resorting to personal attacks.

In order to save you from further bursts of insanity I would inform you that your credibility was shot long ago.

Doc Pete
02-25-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
In order to save you from further bursts of insanity I would inform you that your credibility was shot long ago.

Errrrrrrrr, I'm not the one with the inability to grasp the difference between yes and no. Oh, by the way, I have still haven’t seen that video of you zero turning a WB without slowing down, which was another of your untruths in order to discredit me.
Gees, one little video, such a simple thing, and it would put me in my place and shut me up. Ah, but as always, since you are wrong, you’ll ignore this part of my post, and switch to another subject…
I double dare ya, triple dare ya. I’ve already offered you a $100 to prove me wrong. Come on big boy, give me your best shot.
And for the rest of you listeners, I’m sure this is not over……….
:o :o

FrankenScagMachines
02-25-2004, 08:29 PM
Pete, not to get into the middle of all this, but what exactly did you want a video of? Is the $100 offer good to anyone who provides such a video?
If I remember correct, you wanted a video showing someone doing a true ZERO turn at 3.5 mph without tearing the turf. If this is correct and I can provide such a video you would award me with $100?
I’m not totally sure if it’s possible as I have never really tried it exactly like that. I often turn a little slower than that with the sulky on there because I realize it adds some resistance in turns, and some lawns have soft spots, I like to show care to the lawns. And I rarely walk behind it but when I do, it’s not comfortable to make fast turns. So therefore I’ve never tried exactly what you’re talking about but if the offer is good to me I will make a few attempts to do such a thing and if successful I will do it again in front of camera for you.
Thank you,
Eric

Doc Pete
02-25-2004, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Pete, Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Pete
Hi Eric,
Here's my problem. Law #20 of lawsite states as follows:You are not permitted to post or insinuate false information about members as well as sponsors. If you have never owned or used (at great length) a product offered by one of the sponsors, you are not permitted to comment on the value, validity, or effectiveness of these products or services.

Well, as I remember you were sited for breaking this law by commenting in a non positive way, on products you either didn’t own or had almost no experience with. As the grown up you are, you mended your ways and we give you kudos for that.
Ok! Now, How come Fareway lawns constantly breaks this law by making false and damaging claims about the operation of the H bar and is not reprimanded???
Furthermore, he outright admits he has very little if no experience on the H bar, and doesn’t seem to be mechanically inclined enough to understand it’s operations even when it's explained by many people in detail.
This has to stop and Excel Industries should demand it.

Fareway Lawncare
02-25-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
he outright admits he has very little if no experience on the H bar,

...which is why I'm asking questions. You know the funny thing is I talked to my dealer about carrying Hustler products & contacted Hustler w/my dealers name & number to try & hook them up together. We don't have local dealers. I told him about this site & how it was a great place to get info on new products..I just hope he doesn't visit here & read this fiasco.


Rule 12...which you break almost daily on this board.

"You are not permitted to harass other members at LawnSite.com. This includes offensive remarks or remarks that attempt to provoke another member. Sarcastic baiting is also not permitted. If you disagree with someone, state why, but do not resort to name calling, threats, etc…"

Doc Pete
02-25-2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
...which is why I'm asking questions.



You're just not worth my time............. Get help........

Doc Pete
02-25-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
[BRule 12...which you break almost daily on this board.

"You are not permitted to harass other members at LawnSite.com. This includes offensive remarks or remarks that attempt to provoke another member. Sarcastic baiting is also not permitted. If you disagree with someone, state why, but do not resort to name calling, threats, etc…" [/B]

You don't get do you, dumbhead? Fine, let them do what they want with me, as long as they dump you..............I can make the sacrafice, for the greater good. Little boys such as you have no idea. And when did putting the right name to someone such as you become name calling. A Jerk is a jerk......... eveyone knows you as such, I'm just the only one nice enough to call you by your correct name...............
As Marshal Dillon said, "You may get me son, but I'll get one off going down"..............

Johnny
02-25-2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by mowerconsultant
I have asked you this before, when you went by Ultimate Lawns, when and where did you demo a unit ?
Please tell us.

Pj


Paul,

Fareway (Ed) probably had to drive 2 hours to the Louisville Expo from Florence, KY. Although he could have gone 30 minutes to Midwest Golf & Turf in Hamilton, Ohio.

FrankenScagMachines
02-26-2004, 07:13 AM
Pete, you didn't answer any of my questions. Why quote me without addressing my questions????????????

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Pete, you didn't answer any of my questions. Why quote me without addressing my questions????????????

Eric,
Don't be dumb and start acting like UL, you're too grown up for that:o I've already described the situation. Actually, it's very simple, and you've basically described it yourself. UL claims he can mow at 3.5 mph and perform a true zero turn without slowing the machine down and not divoting the grass. The answer is obvious, you cannot make a 180 degree change of direction of any object without slowing it.
I really don't like bothering to discuss it, since anyone with a high school physics background knows it's impossible.
thanks,
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 09:40 AM
Based on High School Physics does that mean you would have to slow the machine down prior to doing a zero turn if walking at 1 mph or how about .1 mph.. Why just 3.5 mph...what's your cut off point based on physics?

FrankenScagMachines
02-26-2004, 09:49 AM
Pete, I'm not acting dumb or playing games. I just asked if the deal is good for anyone or only Fareway. There's no games in that. As i said I have never tried it but if there is money involved I will give it a shot and if successful I want my $100, unless I am not eligible. Just give me a simple yes or no, am I eligible to win this money if I provide the video?
Please don't be condescending, it will get you no where. Plus you will lose others' respect.

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
Pete, I'm not acting dumb or playing games. I just asked if the deal is good for anyone or only Fareway.

Yeah Eric, by you not grasping this isn't/wasn't supposed to be a "Contest", is why you're still a kid and only 17.
DP

FrankenScagMachines
02-26-2004, 12:27 PM
hey I'm just a poor kid who could use a $100....
Ok well then I am getting back out of this thread.

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 02:31 PM
What difference does it make who posts the video since according to you it can't be done anyway? Why not give Eric a shot at the $$$?

Again, based on High School Physics does that mean you would have to slow the machine down prior to doing a zero turn if walking at 1 mph or how about .1 mph.. Why just 3.5 mph...what's your cut off point based on physics?

The Lawn Boy Pro
02-26-2004, 02:53 PM
Personally, I LOVE the ECS over pistol. My 48" metro has ECS and I absolutely love it. Every time I've looked at Johns "hands-on ECS" pic, it just made me want to try it more LOL :p. So LBP is in the ECS race now, and thanks to john, I'm gonna have a great year!:D

The Lawn Boy Pro
02-26-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
What difference does it make who posts the video since according to you it can't be done anyway? Why not give Eric a shot at the $$$?

Again, based on High School Physics does that mean you would have to slow the machine down prior to doing a zero turn if walking at 1 mph or how about .1 mph.. Why just 3.5 mph...what's your cut off point based on physics? IF you know anything about inertia, you would know why you cant do a turn at 3.5 MPH and not tear up turf (or tear your hydros to bits doing it consistently)!;)

John Gamba
02-26-2004, 03:13 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Lawn Boy Pro
[B]Personally, I LOVE the ECS over pistol. My 48" metro has ECS and I absolutely love it. Every time I've looked at Johns "hands-on ECS" pic, it just made me want to try it more LOL :p. So LBP is in the ECS race now, and thanks to john, I'm gonna have a great year!:

Anytime!! Glad you like it.
John

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by FrankenScagMachines
hey I'm just a poor kid who could use a $100....
Ok well then I am getting back out of this thread.

If you were a poor kid, you'd be cutting grass with sissors. :D
Don't back out. You're a smart kid. Why don't offer your experience. Here's the original scenario offered by UL. He boasted he can zero turn his ECS WB at walking speed (3.5 mph) without slowing the machine down (at all) and not divot the grass. Of course, changing any of these parameters voids the original testimonial.
I’ve love you to offer your thoughts about this. One thing to consider is, can you imagine how fast the machine would spin around, keeping one wheel at 3.5 mph, while reversing the other???? Naturally, at some point for a turn zero turn, both wheels would be traveling a 3.5 mph, one forward and one backward.
Why don’t you put some of that brain into this and tell me what you think is needed to perform this feat.
D :D

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Again, based on High School Physics does that mean you would have to slow the machine down prior to doing a zero turn if walking at 1 mph or how about .1 mph.. Why just 3.5 mph...what's your cut off point based on physics?

Hi Fareway,
Sorry, to hear about your disorder. I know understand your problem and can see it by you asking the same question again, and changing the original post. It must be tough not to be able to stay on track and not understand when someone says yes, you think it means no.
Here's another place to get help.
Good luck,

http://www.add.org/

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 05:46 PM
You could have saved yourself all that ranting & raving about videos & hunderd $$$ bets & name calling if you had only read & processed the post which was & still is, that I can go into a zero turn at walking speed without slowing down.

Interesting that Eric understood what I said & you didn't.

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 06:11 PM
& just so we can hopefully put this thread out of its misery I will attempt to get a video of a hydro walk going into & z-turning at walking speed.

Since the definition of walking speed will differ depending on prop. size & terrain & it is next to impossible to tell if the spin speed has slowed during the turn I doubt such a video will provide anything except further inanities.

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
You could have saved yourself all that ranting & raving about videos & hunderd $$$ bets & name calling if you had only read & processed the post which was & still is, that I can go into a zero turn at walking speed without slowing down.


It's OK Fareway. I understand how your mind changes the original post, as it realizes it's made an error. We've got a few kids at the day care center with ADD, so I know how hard it is for you. See, the reason I realize you have ADD is that "going into a zero turn without slowing", which is what you said, is the normal way we all make zero turns. . This is what the mind usually does, which is revert back to something it's done before, rather than the new question. To refresh your memory, anyone, can "enter" a zero turn at walking speed. However, to "perform" the complete turn without slowing is what the original post was.
Here's something you can try, as you are reading, have someone read along with you keep to your concentration. This way your mind won't lose it's train of thought. If you didn't know, part of ADD is that the mind loses it train of thought when confronted with something it knows is wrong or something it doesn't understand.
Again, sorry I was rude to you without knowing you have ADDA.
They also, have medication that does wonders

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
& just so we can hopefully put this thread out of its misery I will attempt to get a video of a hydro walk going into & z-turning at walking speed.

Since the definition of walking speed will differ depending on prop. size & terrain & it is next to impossible to tell if the spin speed has slowed during the turn I doubt such a video will provide anything except further inanities.


Fareway,
How are you? You sound a bit angry. It's OK. This may help you out with your test. First, at 3.5 mph, both levers will be open without the need of your hands to hold the levers, other than to keep the OPC working. Now, since we won't be slowing down, the easy and only way to make sure your speed doesn't change is, don't touch the outside lever and use the inside lever only. This is the only way to perform the maneuver, since it will guarantee the speed of 3.5 mph will be maintained. For what it’s worth, I know you realize this is the only way to perform this procedure, but I know you’ll have difficulty remembering it because it’s not how you normally do it.
No don’t forget, part of your agreement is that you don’t divot the ground. OOP’s, also forgot “ground” naturally means grass, and not pavement.
You may want to print this post out, so while struggling with your disorder, you have something to help you remember things
Good luck,
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 06:27 PM
Again, what difference does it makes if Eric tries for the $100, since, according to you, it can't be done anyway. Why not make it an open contest?

My primary concern is that since the definition of walking speed will differ depending on prop. size & terrain & it is next to impossible to tell if the spin speed has slowed during the turn I doubt such a video will provide anything except further inanities.

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 06:37 PM
the video is on the way. Now all we need is a radar gun.

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Again, what difference does it makes if Eric tries for the $100, since, according to you, it can't be done anyway. Why not make it an open contest?

I think it would very interesting to make it a contest. Don't expect to me to be paying everyone money, though. But, I would like to see how many guy's can zero turn their hydro machine by using just the inside lever. I Can't, so make me look stupid........

No slowing down

Remember, no divoting the grass.

3.5 mph, which is a quick walking speed

This is a true zero turn, which means both wheels must rotate in opposite directions, each at approx. 3.5 mph.

So, it's simple.......Walk at 3.5 mph and using only one lever (you may hold the other hand only for stability) pull the inside lever and perform a true zero turn and not divot the grass...... Go to it guy's.
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 08:51 PM
I'm not sure where this "quick walking" speed came from, what I said was walking speed, which on our 2-4k sq ft props is rarely "quick".

Determining if the walking speed is acceptable will have to up to an impartial jury of LS members who will vote "Yes" or "No" in a Poll.

If the vote goes in favour of "Yes" then Doc Pete will donate $100 to the charity of my choice.

Since we still have a good foot of snow on the ground & I have blowers & blades & Snow Hog tires on my Walks, here is something to chew on while we wait.

Yes, it is not exactly what we are talking about but it's still an interesting video.

Please click product videos in the Link.

http://www.wrightmfg.com

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
I'm not sure where this "quick walking" speed came from, what I said was walking speed, which on our 2-4k sq ft props is rarely "quick".

Determining if the walking speed is acceptable will have to up to an impartial jury of LS members who will vote "Yes" or "No" in a Poll.



Actually, I'll let you detemine all the rules, and I've decided to give each and every winner not $100, but $200. Also, I'll throw in a free carwash, and a pack of Smith Bros. cough drops, too.
DP

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 10:20 PM
Good Afternoon,

I think it would be fair to let an impartial jury of LS members decide if the video is valid in order to avoid the petty bickering that would otherwise likely follow.

Since you offered $100 for said video, I say again that if the LS community votes the video to be acceptable, you will donate $100 to a charity of my choice.

DLCS
02-26-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Actually, I'll let you detemine all the rules, and I've decided to give each and every winner not $100, but $200. Also, I'll throw in a free carwash, and a pack of Smith Bros. cough drops, too.
DP

lmao, cough drops and a car wash?

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Oh, by the way, I have still haven’t seen that video of you zero turning a WB without slowing down, which was another of your untruths in order to discredit me.
Gees, one little video, such a simple thing, and it would put me in my place and shut me up. Ah, but as always, since you are wrong, you’ll ignore this part of my post, and switch to another subject…
I double dare ya, triple dare ya. I’ve already offered you a $100 to prove me wrong. Come on big boy, give me your best shot.
And for the rest of you listeners, I’m sure this is not over……….
:o :o

Hello, is this offer still on?

Your recent comments suggest otherwise...please review my stipulations above & confirm the offer.

Details are subject to negotiation.

Thank You.

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Hello, is this offer still on?

Your recent comments suggest otherwise...please review my stipulations above & confirm the offer.

Details are subject to negotiation.

Thank You.

Of course we have a deal. In fact, I’d like you to draw up a full set of stipulations and regulations that you may have. However, I reserve the right to have my attorney verify the proceedings, and want all and any copyrights of the video tape to be the sole property of “For Pete’s Sake Landscaping” and it’s subsidiary companies. Plus, “For Pete’s Sake” reserves the right to forbid the sale or viewing of any part of this video for any other reason than for home use, and any use of this video outside the USA and it’s satellite countries is strictly forbidden. Signing off now and thank you for your participation.
DP/FPS productions limited Inc. 2004

Fareway Lawncare
02-26-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Errrrrrrrr, I'm not the one with the inability to grasp the difference between yes and no. Oh, by the way, I have still haven’t seen that video of you zero turning a WB without slowing down, which was another of your untruths in order to discredit me.
Gees, one little video, such a simple thing, and it would put me in my place and shut me up. Ah, but as always, since you are wrong, you’ll ignore this part of my post, and switch to another subject…
I double dare ya, triple dare ya. I’ve already offered you a $100 to prove me wrong. Come on big boy, give me your best shot.
And for the rest of you listeners, I’m sure this is not over……….
:o :o

My only stipulation is that LS members decide if the video is valid...I don't want to get involved in another counter-productive thread after producing the video.

If you agree that LS members decide if the video is valid I will produce the video.

If you have any other concerns or stipulations, please air them now so I can accomidate.

When & if you agree to these terms without sarcasm then the contract will be binding.

Thank You.

Doc Pete
02-26-2004, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
My only stipulation is that LS members decide if the video is valid...I don't want to get involved in another counter-productive thread after producing the video.


You must have me mixed up with another member.
Counter-productive thread? Me? Never……
DP

PaulJ
02-27-2004, 12:57 AM
I'm out of town a couple days and this thread gets two more pages.


Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Hi PaulJ, I hate to beat a dead hose but I was a little confused by your answer. I understand that you can alter the speed of the zero turn but by altering it you are altering both the forward spinning wheel & the backward spinning wheel because the bar is joined (please remember I am stating this from limited personal experience). You cannot alter the speed spin of each wheel seperatly while the unit is zero turning as you can w/twin levers regardless of the twin linkages.

As I said, I was confused by your statements & called Hustler directly & this is what I was told "the zero turn is automatic...you can increse or decrease the speed of the zero turn...when you increase the speed during the turn you get the same increase in wheel spin between the forward & backward spinning tire."

This means that the answer to my original question should have been No.

What I am trying to decifer is if you can alter the wheel spin of the forward spinning tire without affecting the wheel spin of the backward spinning tire & or alter both the forward & backward spinning to DIFFERENT speeds during the turn.

Please understand PaulJ I am just trying to clarify this point because it takes me over 2hrs to drive to test a unit which I have allready done once.

Either, you misunderstood the question or I am misunderstanding your response.

As a side not I am not slamming this product nor am I promoting another.

I have answered all this before as best I can. IF all you do is twist the handle forward or back then the speed of both wheels changes. If you twist AND turn at the same time, you can change one without changing the other.


PaulJ
Senior Member

Yes

The operator of the machine controls it, thus controlling the speed of each wheel, independently.

I've got some time(insomnia) so let's start at the beginning for the guys that aren't familiar with the h-bar.

To go forward-twist the horizontal bar forward

to slow down and reverse twist the horizontal bar back

to turn to the right or left-pull that side of the bar back

to straighten out-relax and return the bar to center

to slow one wheel down and not speed up the other
(pay attention now)-simply pull back on one side while also twisting the bar back at the same time.(this moves only the linkage of the one side instead of both)(if you can walk and chew gum, you can do this)

to Zero turn- pull back on one side and twist the bar back at the same time until the inside wheel is going in reverse and the outside wheel is still going forward. Then twist the bar back forward while returning it to center and you are heading the other way.




The machine never takes over. It's not going to do anything you don't let it do. I maintain control of my mower.

I don't know how to make it any clearer so that's about all I can tell you.

__________________


Paul Arens
Monroe, NE


02-24-2004 12:02 AM


PaulJ
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Columbus, NE
Posts: 985


I thought I was done.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are 3/4 of the way through a ZERO turn are you able to slightly & precisely adjust the spin speed of each individual wheel as you can w/individual levers controlling each pump & wheel motor?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to slow one wheel down and not speed up the other (pay attention now)-simply pull back on one side while also twisting the bar back at the same time.(this moves only the linkage of the one side instead of both)(if you can walk and chew gum, you can do this)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You coordinate your movements. Twist the bar forward or back while turning the handle to the left or right at the same time.
Go back to your dealer and look underneath the handle at the linkages. Look really close. You will see a separate rod going from the handle to each pump. then move the controls some and you might be able to see how it works.

If you are used to two lever controls (like I was) then it takes some practice. I had to learn not to fight the linkage but work with it. Think about the first time you tried a pistol grip. It probably wasn't very natural, was it?


OK
back to the original question. If you can find a good pistol grip mower, and they don't bother you, and your hands don't hurt at the end of a day, and you like everything else about ti-then go ahead and buy it.
I like the h-bar best. It is my main mower and I am the only one running it. My hands were starting to show signs of age and using the pistol grips didn't help. I decided not to compromise anything on this mower and the hustler was the only one that had all the features I wanted, including an alternative to pistol grips.



H-bar= using tow hands (or one) to move one handle in two axis to coordinate movement of two wheels.

or

two levers= using two hands to move two different levers seperatly to coordinate movement of two wheels

the choice is yours.


Two hours is nothing to drive to look at machines I did that several times and looked at many different brands, drove a few. Bought the Hustler:D

odin
02-27-2004, 01:24 AM
how about a end to this pissing match...time to go to the curbside and empty your boots full of piss from this match...looks like casey slim shady is here to stay...and pete is here to stay to ...so live with that fact i guess lol.


o yeah i like pistol's if that matters at this point lol .

Doc Pete
02-27-2004, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by odin
how about a end to this pissing match...time to go to the curbside and empty your boots full of piss from this match...looks like casey slim shady is here to stay...and pete is here to stay to ...so live with that fact i guess lol.
o yeah i like pistol's if that matters at this point lol .

Why Mr. Odin, whatever do you mean??:cool: ROFLMAO............
I know, you’re one of those Hooligans that have in the back of that little mean mind of yours to “pirate” the video of UL zero turning and sell it overseas at a profit. I can see it now, all those itty bitty migrate workers slaving their hearts out on tape duplicators, just so you can sweat a few “unclean” dollars away from my company “FPS limited inc.”.Shame on you, you old Codger…….:p :p :p :p
Now, let’s all say together, it’s not Casey’s fault, he has a problem….. ADDA. And, I want you to stop being your big bad self, and leave my poor friend UL, alone. Do you heard me, you big bully?? :o :o :o

Fareway Lawncare
02-27-2004, 09:59 AM
Thanks PaulJ, that was the answer I was looking for.




Doc Pete

Originally posted by Doc Pete
Oh, by the way, I have still haven’t seen that video of you zero turning a WB without slowing down, which was another of your untruths in order to discredit me.
Gees, one little video, such a simple thing, and it would put me in my place and shut me up. Ah, but as always, since you are wrong, you’ll ignore this part of my post, and switch to another subject…
I double dare ya, triple dare ya. I’ve already offered you a $100 to prove me wrong.

Again, does this offer stand with the video's validity to be judged in a Poll by LS members? If the vote is "yes" you will donate $100 to a charity of my choice.

If you have any stipulations re: the video presentation please state them now.

Thank You

Doc Pete
02-27-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Again, does this offer stand with the video's validity to be judged in a Poll by LS members? If the vote is "yes" you will donate $100 to a charity of my choice.
If you have any stipulations re: the video presentation please state them now.
Thank You

Hi Fareway,
I think I already answered that question. Try going back 6 posts and read my response. I’d use my fingers to count on just so that ugly ADDA you have doesn’t rear it head.
Frankly, since you are always so impartial in our discussions here on Lawnsite , I’ll just leave everything up to you. I completely trust your judgment. Now don’t forget, in addition to my original offers, the first 10 winners will receive a coupon to MacDonald’s for “Free Super Sizing on any meals they order during the month of April”. This offer will be good in all 50 states, Canada and the UK.

DLCS
02-27-2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Hi Fareway,
I think I already answered that question. Try going back 6 posts and read my response. I’d use my fingers to count on just so that ugly ADDA you have doesn’t rear it head.
Frankly, since you are always so impartial in our discussions here on Lawnsite , I’ll just leave everything up to you. I completely trust your judgment. Now don’t forget, in addition to my original offers, the first 10 winners will receive a coupon to MacDonald’s for “Free Super Sizing on any meals they order during the month of April”. This offer will be good in all 50 states, Canada and the UK. Now if you throw in a Hot Apple Pie with that, I may be tempted to get in on this video deal.:p

Fareway Lawncare
02-27-2004, 12:52 PM
Based on the evasive nature & sarcastic tone of your responses I can only infer that you will not honour your original offer.

Please feel free to resubmit your offer in a more concise & professional manner for my consideration at any time.

Doc Pete
02-27-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Fareway Lawncare
Based on the evasive nature & sarcastic tone of your responses I can only infer that you will not honour your original offer.Please feel free to resubmit your offer in a more concise & professional manner for my consideration at any time.

Fareway,
Gosh, I don't what you mean. Are you saying you'd rather leave out the "Mac" coupons"?? I wasn't sure if that was a bit much, maybe so.

Doc Pete
02-27-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by DLCS
Now if you throw in a Hot Apple Pie with that, I may be tempted to get in on this video deal.:p

Didn't you know that "Apple pie thing" has too many calories. I would never think of making you guy's become possible candidates for a Heart Attack. What kind of guy do you think I am?:rolleyes: :D

Haley Lawn Care
02-27-2004, 04:20 PM
Come on folks how long can you beat a dead horse? Bury the thing.

David :(

Fareway Lawncare
02-27-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Errrrrrrrr, I'm not the one with the inability to grasp the difference between yes and no. Oh, by the way, I have still haven’t seen that video of you zero turning a WB without slowing down, which was another of your untruths in order to discredit me.
Gees, one little video, such a simple thing, and it would put me in my place and shut me up. Ah, but as always, since you are wrong, you’ll ignore this part of my post, and switch to another subject…
I double dare ya, triple dare ya. I’ve already offered you a $100 to prove me wrong. Come on big boy, give me your best shot.
And for the rest of you listeners, I’m sure this is not over……….
:o :o

In other words you were simply blowing smoke with this post.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Doc Pete
02-27-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Haley Lawn Care
Come on folks how long can you beat a dead horse? Bury the thing.

David :(

Dave,
You mean you ain't having fun yet?:) Gees, I can see Fareways point. Why should he have all the fun? He wants everyone to join in. Hmmmmmm, and why would that be??:confused:

DLCS
02-27-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
He wants everyone to join in. Hmmmmmm, and why would that be??:confused:


I know...I know.....:p

Fareway Lawncare
02-27-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Doc Pete
Errrrrrrrr, I'm not the one with the inability to grasp the difference between yes and no. Oh, by the way, I have still haven’t seen that video of you zero turning a WB without slowing down, which was another of your untruths in order to discredit me.
Gees, one little video, such a simple thing, and it would put me in my place and shut me up. Ah, but as always, since you are wrong, you’ll ignore this part of my post, and switch to another subject…
I double dare ya, triple dare ya. I’ve already offered you a $100 to prove me wrong. Come on big boy, give me your best shot.
And for the rest of you listeners, I’m sure this is not over……….
:o :o

It's really quite simple.

You laid down an offer.

I accepted the offer.

Now we discuss how the offer can most fairly be completed.

Having the LS community decide the videos validity in a Poll situation seems the most equitable solution.

If you have any other suggestions on how to ensure the offer is completed fairly please air them now.

If you are no longer interested in pursuing this offer then please do not respond further in this thread.

Thank You

bastalker
02-27-2004, 06:36 PM
Is there enough room in that window for your credibility to go thru??If not I will open it a little more for you guys....:rolleyes:

John Gamba
02-28-2004, 08:37 AM
Its just winter on lawnsite:eek:

odin
02-28-2004, 08:59 AM
he has a problem


i agree there ..casey jack d slim shady is 5 cans short a six pack...none the less it seems he is here for a while....but like all goofy setting their ass on a fireplug staddlers he will cut his own thoat and get banned for the 1000th time.

7 PAGES of this getts anal after a while dont ya think??o course being anal is ok for mister casey he tough from straddling fireplugs .

Fareway Lawncare
02-28-2004, 12:05 PM
Thank you for your support Mr. Odin,

I have decided to produce the video for purely educational purposes as my attempts to secure a $100 donation for the Christian Charity Organization has gone unrealized.