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Lech615
03-13-2004, 09:39 PM
I am in the process of moving to Florida, Flagler county. Does anyone know what the laws are for organic lawn programs in florida/

1. Can I apply just organic ferts without a license?

2. Does CGM require a license in Florida to apply?

3. What are the steps to get a pesticide license?

All help is appreciated.

thanks Carl

bioman
03-14-2004, 11:33 AM
Your questions will be answered at this site on
April 1, 2004. This is all I can say at this time, but be sure to log on April 1, 2004.


Thank You,

Bioman

Lech615
03-14-2004, 12:48 PM
am I supposed to fall for an April fool;s gag or is this for real bioman?;)

bioman
03-15-2004, 02:40 PM
Yes it is for real. I will start advertising on this site on April 1st, 2004. So be sure to check out the sight on that day.

Norm Al
04-04-2004, 05:51 PM
anybody can put true organics down in florida without a spray license! if you use fertilizers that arent organic you better get a license!

if you want to do organics move to dallas texas because florida has NOT tapped into the organics industry enough for you to earn a living doing it here,,,,,in other words you will starve to death doing organics in florida,,,,unless you have the patience and cash to GROW the organics industry

bioman
04-04-2004, 11:51 PM
This is not true Norm Al. Florida has tapped into the organic industry, and you can make a good living doing it here. Just go to www.biolsinc.com, and give me a call.

Ron

Norm Al
04-05-2004, 12:04 PM
bioman your link doesnt work you can call me at 863-670-9032

googleplex
04-05-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Norm Al
bioman your link doesnt work you can call me at 863-670-9032

NormAl,

try www.biolsinc.com

Ric
04-06-2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Norm Al
anybody can put true organics down in florida without a spray license! if you use fertilizers that arent organic you better get a license!

if you want to do organics move to dallas texas because florida has NOT tapped into the organics industry enough for you to earn a living doing it here,,,,,in other words you will starve to death doing organics in florida,,,,unless you have the patience and cash to GROW the organics industry


Scott

I would like to correct you about the chapter 482 of Florida law. Anyone can put down fertilizer, Synthetic or Organic. They should have a local business license from there county and city, but there is no State violation of law.

HOWEVER once you apply any product as a means of controlling any pest you must have the a proper license from the State.

A homeowner can apply a pesticide product synthetic or Organic to their own yard without a State License.

NOW AN APPLICATION OF A ORGANIC OR SYNTHETIC PESTICIDE TO PROPERTY OTHER THAN YOU LIVE, MUST BE DONE BY A FLORIDA CERTIFIED AND LICENSED COMPANY.

Let me make this very clear. Unless you are a certified pesticide operator in the state of Florida, you can not put down any pesticides on others property. Pay or no pay.

Any product including Organic Pesticides not labeled by the EPA as pesticides can not be applied legally as a pesticide in the USA.

LET ME GO ON TO ADD THAT ANYONE WHO SELLS CORN GLUTEN AS A PRE-EMERGE AND APPLIES IT TO A LAWN, MUST HAVE A LAWN AND ORNAMENT CERTIFICATION AND LICENSE. FAILURE TO COMPLY TO THIS LAW COULD BRING FINES STARTING AT $ 5,000.00.


BIOMAN

I don't mean to dash your hopes, but. Your organic pesticide market is homeowner only. Then I am not sure of that, because the label is the law and organic for the most part don't have EPA reg labels.

I believe organic synthetic bridge product have a place in Florida horticulture. However I will agree with Scott (Norm Al) You have a long road to hoe and educate.

Now I hope you have not invested a lot of money it this venture. Because every year I see hundreds of people come to Florida and start new business. Now every year I see those new business fold. 5% make it past the one year mark and About 1% made it past the 3 year mark. Now after over 50 years in the same town I have seen them come and I have seem them go. So good luck to you because you need all the luck you can get.


Chapter 482 Pesticide Law http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0482/titl0482.htm


Chapter 487 Pesticide Law http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0487/titl0487.HTM

Chapter 576 Fertilizer Law http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0576/titl0576.htm

bioman
04-06-2004, 07:31 PM
Ric,

I have been in business for 19 years. I along with the Bureau of Entomology and Pest control have both researched all the regulation and statues. There is no clear REGULATION on organic, or non epa rated products. If you read all the regulations you listed Ric; They all state that a person or business applying, or selling restricted use herbicides or pesticides must be a FLORIDA CERTIFIED LICENSED OPERATOR. Nothing I use or sell is CLASSIFIED A RESTRICTED USE PRODUCT.

RIC, I HAVE ALSO BEEN APPLYING ORGANIC PRODUCTS AT A NICE PROFIT MARGIN, WITH MANY SATISFIED CUSTOMERS SINCE APRIL 2000. I HAVE BEEN REPORTED 3 TIMES BY THE SAME COMPANY IN MY AREA. AFTER THE THIRD REPORT I WAS ASKED TO SEND ALL THE INFORMATION I HAVE ON MY PRODUCTS TO THE FDoA&CS. AFTER WAYNE GALE READ ALL THE INFORMATION I SENT TO HIM, HE WROTE ME A LETTER, AND AS LONG AS I OR ANY OTHER DEALER IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA ADVERTISE AS A "BIOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVE TO CHEMICALS" WE ARE SAFE FOR THE TIME BEING.

YES THEY WILL REGULATE THIS LIKE ANY THING ELSE, SO THE STATE GETS ITS FEAR SHARE OF THE PROFITS.

SO RIC BEFORE YOU GO RUNNING OFF AT THE MOUTH IN HERE YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR FACTS TOGETHER.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN IN BUSINESS RIC.

MAY YOU THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
RON AKA BIOMAN

Ric
04-06-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by bioman


I along with the Bureau of Entomology and Pest control have both researched all the regulation and statues. There is no clear REGULATION on organic, or non epa rated products.... WE ARE SAFE FOR THE TIME BEING.....MAY YOU THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
RON AKA BIOMAN

Bioman

Oh I thought before I wrote, and I think you are walking a tight rope of the Law. So did the other people who turned you in. Now I have gone to your website and read what I consider to be products that are being represented as pesticides. Whether they work is not the point. Wayne Gale is the Bureau chief and what he says goes. I am sorry that the State of Florida is so Broke that they don't have the funds to pursue this, because I still believe the law, in it's true interpretation is against you.

I have been in business for 7 years, going on my 8th. Now years in business has nothing to do with this. However Science does. Can you provide any University Studies That proofs your stuff works in a timely manner? Are those University studies backed up by other University studies?

bioman
04-06-2004, 10:08 PM
Ric,

I am not walking a tight rope of the law. The true interpretation states again. That anyone using or selling Restricted use herbicides or pesticides must be a certified licensed pest control operator. Again nothing I use or sell is a restricted use pesticide or herbicide. I have been investigated by Mike McDanials and Wayne Gale, by the way Ric, Wayne Gale is no longer the Bureau chief. Both Wayne and Mike found me to be within the law.

The person who brought the years in business was you Ric. So how does that have nothing to do with this. I am a true Floridian, and a retired pilot, and at one time held a pest control licenses. Never did use the damn thing though. I am firmly against the use of chemicals to maintain turf and plants. Yes science does, and I can provide you with University Studies on, and proven history on everything I use or sale. However, can you provide me with University Studies back up by other University Studies on the chemicals you use.

The state has plenty of money Ric, and will eventually license biological alternative to chemicals. I have been told this by both Mike and Wayne. We are just ahead of the future. I do not understand your problem with progress. All the big chemical companies are working hard to come out with new ways of controlling weeds, fungus, and insects without the use of chemicals. So by your calculations you might not make it to your 10th anniversary in business.

Ric, I also think you have been brain washed to think that what one man says goes. I looked up your profile and your old enough to know America would not be where it is at today if everyone believed what one person said goes. These regulation were written about 42 years ago by the four or five main players in in the pest control industry. I also find it very hard that only one person needs to hold a certified pest control license, and can send out any joe blow to put out the chemicals in someones home or yard.

So, Ric get out of the closed mind set and call me. My toll free number is on my web site. I will be in my office Thursday Morning at 6:30 am until about 7:00 pm. Please call

Ron

olestoneyinpa
04-06-2004, 11:03 PM
I LOVE LAWNSITE.COM - GREAT SITE!

Norm Al
04-06-2004, 11:19 PM
you guys need to slow down,,,,olestoney!

and do some research about EPA EXEMPT products and what is needed to apply them!

it doesnt matter if it is stated that they kill bugs or weeds,,,,,the 25B exemption is what the epa has already determined that anybody can use!

olestoneyinpa
04-06-2004, 11:51 PM
I WILL HAVE TO CHECK OUT THE SITE A LITTLE CLOSER...THANKS BIOMAN FOR SPONSORING THE SITE

bioman
04-07-2004, 07:56 AM
Thank you both norm Al, and olestoneyinpa, I apologies if I got a little heated in my last two post. But, when people speak before knowing all the facts it upsets me just a little bit. The EPA exempt regulation was drafted in 1996. The state of Florida did not even address it until May 2002. The 25B exemption can be found at

http://www.epa.gov/PesticideApplication

bioma

Ric
04-07-2004, 08:27 AM
Bioman

Retire Pilot and Certified operator should not only know what a RDF is but the difference between Restricted uses Pesticides and General uses Pesticides. They also Should know That even general use pesticides require a license to apply if it is not your own property that you live on. I am not saying you can not sell these products. I am saying that any one who applies them to property other than their own must have a license. Home Cheapo can sell even termite product to homeowner to use, but that doesn't mean an unlicensed person can apply them to others property.

PS I am a former Military Pilot, Certified Pesticide Operator, Registered Irrigation Contractor and Registered Landscape Design and Installation Contractor. Now some how I can not see how being a Pilot has anything to do with Organic pesticides. One is George Jetson and the other is Fred Flintstone.

bioman
04-07-2004, 09:48 AM
Ric

I am also a certified landscape contractor, but it was a waste of money. You are interpretation of the regulations is not correct. Also unlicensed employees of pest control companies apply chemicals all day long.

We could argue this point until we both were dead. So give me a call tomorrow.

ron 888-224-8275

Norm Al
04-07-2004, 11:22 AM
25b Minimum Risk Pesticides
Note: Additional information about this list is available in PR Notice 2000-6 (PDF)

40 CFR ' 152.25(f) Minimum risk pesticides--

(1) Exempted products. Products containing the following active ingredients are ------->exempt from the requirements of FIFRA<---------------, alone or in combination with other substances listed in this paragraph, provided that all of the criteria of this section are met.

Norm Al
04-07-2004, 11:59 AM
the problem with looking at the pesticide rules and regulations (as far as i can tell),,,,is that organics really arent regulated by fifra or the epa,,,,,,so technicly they arent pesticides.

is that how you guys see it?


the problem with organics in florida is that they have the reputation of being slower, not as effective and more costly!

which doesnt seem to fit into the florida lifestyle at this time. florida recidents want fast, cost effective, immediate gratification.

so running an organics only spray service is going to be a hard sell to the homeowner,,,,,i speak from experiance not out of my butthole!

that doesnt mean that organics couldnt be incorporated into a program which if spray companys arent tapping into organics and training their people about them,,,,,,in the not to distant future that will be all thats left,,,,,,so a company would be behind the 8 ball if they dont start tapping into organics now! IMHO=in my humble opinion!

Ric
04-07-2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by bioman
Ric

I am also a certified landscape contractor, but it was a waste of money. You are interpretation of the regulations is not correct. Also unlicensed employees of pest control companies apply chemicals all day long.

We could argue this point until we both were dead. So give me a call tomorrow.

ron 888-224-8275

Bioman

You claim to be a pilot and the first thing a pilot is trained to do is pay attention to details. I don't think you are taking full advantage of your training. I give you a few exsample below.

The only Certified Landscape Contractor Certification I know of is through the FNGA, a private organization. Yes I have that one too, however it is not worth the paper it is written on at this time. The State of Florida Dept of Ag. has said that they might recognized it in the future. However REGISTERED Commercial Landscape Contractor is a State License, regulated county to county the same as Irrigation Contractor Licenses. There are State Block tests for these licenses. Without the Commercial Landscape Contractors License you can not legally put a shove in the ground on any commercial property. You can do a Million dollar Landscape for a home owner but you can not replace a plant for a condo.

UNLICENSED EMPLOYEES?? I think not, all of my employees that spray so much as Roundup are licensed and registered with the state to spray or apply pesticides under my company license. All Licensed Companies must have a Certified Operator in charge. That be me. These Licensed employees work under my direction and I am responsible for their training.

INTERPRETATION of the regulations. I called my local State inspector today. He reminded me of the guy he busted for killing Ants with boiling water. He said in his territory that he catches unlicensed people applying any product with the intend to suppress or control any pest he would Fine them. That means Nematodes or elephant, Pre or Post Emerge

THE WRONG FORUM. Yes I looked and posted in the wrong forum. Just like Religion and Politic, Organic People will be always be die in the wool Tree Huggers. Tree Huggers are like a Cult. They can only see things their way. I however believe in Bridge products, Organics have a place in Horticulture. You don't believe in synthetic pesticides yet the very state you live in is the Bug Capital of America. Your Life is much better off and you will live longer because of pesticides. Therefore it is not productive to either of us to carry on this discussion.

bioman
04-07-2004, 08:33 PM
Ric

There is only one thing left for me to say. Your full of . I have been doing landscape construction in this state since 1986, and to this date there is no state licensed for Certified Commercial Landscaper. I have done millions of dollars worth of new construction at the University of Florida, and shopping centers, apartment complexes, and even Federal Prisons.

Now I know where you are coming from. You hold a Limited licenses to spray round-up. Well let me inform you that a pest control company in the state of Florida only one owner or officer is required to be Certified. Not the employees that work for him. So again you have talked about some thing you know nothing about.

LAST COMMENT FROM ME

Ron

bioman
04-07-2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Norm Al
the problem with looking at the pesticide rules and regulations (as far as i can tell),,,,is that organics really arent regulated by fifra or the epa,,,,,,so technicly they arent pesticides.

is that how you guys see it?


the problem with organics in florida is that they have the reputation of being slower, not as effective and more costly!

which doesnt seem to fit into the florida lifestyle at this time. florida recidents want fast, cost effective, immediate gratification.

so running an organics only spray service is going to be a hard sell to the homeowner,,,,,i speak from experiance not out of my butthole!

that doesnt mean that organics couldnt be incorporated into a program which if spray companys arent tapping into organics and training their people about them,,,,,,in the not to distant future that will be all thats left,,,,,,so a company would be behind the 8 ball if they dont start tapping into organics now! IMHO=in my humble opinion!

This is very true norm al. I thank you for getting us back on track.

BIOMAN

woodycrest
04-07-2004, 09:10 PM
Ric,

a tree hugging cult? :confused:

Ric
04-07-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by bioman
Ric

There is only one thing left for me to say. Your full of . I have been doing landscape construction in this state since 1986, and to this date there is no state licensed for Certified Commercial Landscaper. I have done millions of dollars worth of new construction at the University of Florida, and shopping centers, apartment complexes, and even Federal Prisons.

Now I know where you are coming from. You hold a Limited licenses to spray round-up. Well let me inform you that a pest control company in the state of Florida only one owner or officer is required to be Certified. Not the employees that work for him. So again you have talked about some thing you know nothing about.

LAST COMMENT FROM ME

Ron

Excuse me Bioman Re read my post.

1. I am a Full Book CPO State of Florida. That Means I am licensed Do

A. L&O Lawn and Ornamental pest control

B. GHP General Household Pest

c. Termite

d. Fumigation.


My Employees are licensed under my Certification. They carry a license issued by the state with them at all times when applying pesticides. My company no longer does termite work however I still keep my certification up.

2. Registered Commercial Landscape contractors are regulated by the County. Each county has there own rules, However The State has a block test that is recognized by all counties.

How I will repeat myself one more time. Organic People are zealots that only perceive what is to there favor. By the way you respond you must be retired pilot of the Wright Flyer.



Yes woodycrest just like your Traditional European Greens.

woodycrest
04-07-2004, 10:03 PM
lol...
thanks, ric, i appreciate your support :)


i will certainly post an update on my greens once things warm up a little here in the great white north. We will see if they still fit in the traditional eurpoean category ....maybe they will, maybe they wont.

close minded,tree hugging zealots? lol :drinkup:

Norm Al
04-08-2004, 09:27 AM
have yall ever tried naked skydiving? ow ow ow wow ow wow ow,,,,,life should be fun and organic and synthetic!:)

TurfProSTL
04-08-2004, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Norm Al
the problem with organics in florida is that they have the reputation of being slower, not as effective and more costly!

which doesnt seem to fit into the florida lifestyle at this time. florida recidents want fast, cost effective, immediate gratification.

so running an organics only spray service is going to be a hard sell to the homeowner,,,,,i speak from experiance not out of my butthole!

that doesnt mean that organics couldnt be incorporated into a program which if spray companys arent tapping into organics and training their people about them,,,,,,in the not to distant future that will be all thats left,,,,,,so a company would be behind the 8 ball if they dont start tapping into organics now! IMHO=in my humble opinion! Excellent points, IMHO.....

Using organic-based blends or bridge products helps give you that immediate gratification of seeing a quick result, and helps keep the cost of the product down to an affordable level.

As a turf manager, I think you need to use every tool available to you to grow quality grass, and topical applications of organic matter are defrinitely one of the tools. So is the occasional needed dose of pesticide to control an unwanted pest. I, like many homeowners, don't have the patience to wait on an organics-ONLY program to produce quality lawns, so I use a combination of organics and synthetics to attain the desired results.

People will pay top dollar for a common-sense approach that produces superior results.....

Ric
04-08-2004, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Ric
I believe organic synthetic bridge product have a place in Florida horticulture. However I will agree with Scott (Norm Al) You have a long road to hoe and educate.

I should not be posting here in the Orgasm Forum, Because I do not believe in a total organic programs. However I do believe Organic material can improve the soil. In My case Florida's Calcareous Sandy can benefit greatly. SOM can improve our High pH and lack of Hydraulic conductivity. CEC can be increased with SOM. Therefore with out getting into a lot of technical talk I will just say Organics can help Synthetic work better. However Living in the BUG CAPITAL of the Nation with fungus and Year round weeds growth, I can not wait for multiply years for Organic Pesticides or fertilizer to not work.

Now every time I go to a Trade Show There is Always a couple of Mom-Pop Snake Oil Salesman their, Pushing The latest Venom. Now if this stuff is so great why haven't the Big Boys picked up on it and sell the heck out of it.

Now one more point about Organics. Higher pH will increase Microbe activity, while lower pH will increase CEC. If SOM lowers pH and SOM requires Microbes, How fast can Organics work. However Synthetics that require Microbes do not require the same high population of microbes to work.

TurfProSTL
04-09-2004, 02:04 AM
Ric,

Why wouldn't a blend of organic/synthetic fertilizers work best in your situation? What is SOM?

Also, I've seen research showing some organic sources suppress disease, and have witnessed this first-hand. I would rather spend money on turf food / soil fuel than a quick fix fungicide band-aid myself.....

Ric
04-09-2004, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by TurfProSTL
Ric,

Why wouldn't a blend of organic/synthetic fertilizers work best in your situation? What is SOM?

Also, I've seen research showing some organic sources suppress disease, and have witnessed this first-hand. I would rather spend money on turf food / soil fuel than a quick fix fungicide band-aid myself.....


Originally posted by Ric
I believe organic synthetic bridge product have a place in Florida horticulture.

timturf
04-09-2004, 08:31 AM
Does SOM mean sythethic organic material?

I believe bridge or fortified fertilizer has it place in all states!!!!!!!!!My definition of bridge or fortified fertilizers is a combination of a sythethic and a natural fertilizer. The quality of this product depends on the ingredients, not all bridged or fortified fertilizers are good!

Ric
04-09-2004, 08:32 AM
TurfProSTL

I am sorry if I used commonly accepted Scientific agronomic terms when replying to this forum. Next time I will spell everything out.

SOM is the common abbreviation for SOIL ORGANIC MATTER. Compost is Organic Material, after it decomposes for many years and is mixed into the rhizoshere( the top 8 inches of soil) it becomes SOM.

Physical properties of soil are measured in terms like texture, structure, particle size distribution, particle shape, density, infiltration, percolation, hydraulic conductivity, and water potential etc.

Bulk density is the way we measure compaction. Compaction is why farmers plow their fields and core aeration is how we manage compaction on turf soils. Compaction of the soil closes the void spaces. Water, air, fertilizer, and roots need these void spaces for our plants to grow healthy. Chemical properties are measured in terms like cation & anion exchange, salinity, pH, redox potential, and volatilization etc.

It is this science that allows a few to feed the many.

Ric
04-09-2004, 08:39 AM
If you want to apply organic material to turf forget about any of the high priced snake oil sold in a bag or a bottle by a huckster.

To improve the quality of cool or warm season turf core aerate heavily, and apply local compost in conjunction with a "balanced" (as determined per a soil test from your state sponsored university) chemical fertilizer with minor elements.

Norm Al
04-09-2004, 10:04 AM
Ric,,,,,orgasm forum?,,,,thats funny shizzz bro!

I have personally talked to Ric on the phone and trust me he is a redneck florida cracker :)

ANYWAY,,,,ric is a reflection of the entire industry NOT seeing the entire picture,,,,in an effort to stay alive and make profits our industry has blinded the average spray CPO to the entire picture!

this is the entire picture.....ORGANICS DO NOT and WILL NOT WORK in the florida market unless several things happen:

1)we have to get back to NATIVE grasses and shrubs,,,,,as long as florida homeowners demand imported high maintenance plants,,,,there will be a demand for synthetics

2)homeowners will have to accept that their turf will not be flourescent green 3 days after we spray!

3)homeowners will have to quit over watering and underwatering

4)and spray service tech will have to actually work,,,,not just go out and blindly spray a solution that a CPO has mixed for them

these are just a starter.......the BIG boys are all over this,,,,,www.dirtdoctor.com.....this guy howard garrett is writing programs as we speak for Tru-Green, Scotts, John Deere and others and MAJOR companys in texas are using organics only programs in an effort to be doing whats best for their communitys.....fritolay, t-mobile, motorola and so on

Dchall_San_Antonio
04-09-2004, 10:46 AM
Great discussions folks! I appreciate Ric's candor for his position.

One problem I have with the specific wording of the rules in the various states is that they seem to forbid applying anything that affects insects or weeds to the negative. Well...if you're putting anything organic on the lawn, you are negatively affecting the insects and weeds. Ultimately if you can ever stop using the bridge products and fall over the fence toward the organic side, you will find that the insect and weed problems are diminished and eventually seem to go completely away. Now they don't go completely away but the natural way does control the pests to the point where the owner does not notice the pests. Personally I have not had more than a dozen aphids (yes I count them every year) since going organic on my roses in 2001. This year I have zero bugs on my citrus.

So my point is that if you go 100% organic and the bugs and weeds and fungus stops coming to the property, the simple application of corn meal would seem to violate the letter of the law.

One more thing, please do not post links to other websites with forums. That is a no-no on this one.

bioman
04-09-2004, 12:51 PM
Dr. Hall,

Very true. We have yard that have been on a 100% organic program, and after the second year have not seen one chinch bug, mole crickit, and the damage done by fungus was minimul. I am going to be in Houston next week I will be tied up there all week. If there is any way you can make it down there Dr. Hall, I would enjoy meeting you. You can reach me at 888-224-8275 (office) or 386-697=9039 (cell).

P.S. The bfore and after pictures on the welcome page are of a yard that was full of chinch bugs when we took over. There is only a four month difference in the results. All done with organics.

www.biolsinc.com

Thank You,
Ron aka
Bioman

TurfProSTL
04-09-2004, 01:00 PM
Ric,

Now I understand your choice of avatars. Perhaps other posters selected it for you, you cranky old *phtt*. :)

Thanks for the soil science lesson. I was really just interested in what the abbreviation SOM meant, but appreciate the time and effort you put into trying to educate me.

I can't say I have a PhD in agronomics, but what I DO know, I've picked up at UPE (the University of Personal Education). It's taken me over 25 years to get my 'associate degree', and I continue my education on a daily basis.

What I've seen the past few years, using organic-based fertility, is healthier, high quality turf - and happy, loyal customers.

I'm not a tree hugger by any means, using pre-emergent applications on a broadcast basis, and spot-treatments as needed for broadleaf weeds. Insects are treated (with chemicals) in an IPM approach. Fungicide usage has decreased from the 5-10% of my customer base that would buck-up for them to less than 1% in the 3 seasons using 'organic' fertilizers.

I don't buy high-priced 'snake oils' or ground-up dog food. I don't apply massive doses of corn or uncomposted wastes. I use affordably priced fertilizers containing natural, mined, and manufactured ingredients. I base my program first on OM, then N-P-K per 1000 sqft.

Works for me.....

Norm Al
04-09-2004, 05:06 PM
there are very few roses and citrus trees at the average lawn,,,,,how do you organicly get rid of sago scale?

ProMo
04-09-2004, 05:36 PM
I got rid of my sago scale with vegtable oil and dish soap

Norm Al
04-09-2004, 08:36 PM
PROMO those products arent labeled for use on sagos,,,,,,,legally we cant use them as a spray service!

mowerparts
04-09-2004, 09:18 PM
Use this product:

Organocide™ is a nature-safe, organic spray oil effective on a wide variety of insects, mites, armored and soft scales and certain fungal diseases.

Target Pests: Organocide™ is insecticidal to the eggs, larvae and nymphs of insects and adults of soft bodied insects. Controls a wide range of mite and insect pests such as (but not limited to) citrus rust mites. spider mites, armored and soft scales, mealy bugs, white-flies, aphids, leaf-rollers, leaf miner, fungus gnats and thrips. Organocide™ controls certain fungal diseases such as (but not limited to) powdery mildew, black spot on roses, helminthesporium and greasy spot on citrus.

Target Plants: Vegetables, fruits, nuts, vine crops, herbs, spices, ornamentals, greenhouse crops, turfgrass, landscape plants, interior plants and plantscapes, bulbs, flowers and field crops.

Plant Compatibility: Organocide™ has a high degree of safety to most plants. However, some plants in the Euphorbia family (Crown of Thorns) have shown some sensitivity. If in doubt, treat a small section of plants before widescale use.Organocide™

Ric
04-09-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Norm Al
PROMO those products arent labeled for use on sagos,,,,,,,legally we cant use them as a spray service!

Norm Al

Actually Promo has come up with the perfect long term organic-biological control for sego scale. After the first rain or irrigation washes away the Soap. The fire ants will move in for the protein and carbohydrates in the Vegetable Oil. As a by product they will also eat the crawlers of the sego scale.

Yes, I think I am Starting to see the advantage of Organic Pest Control.

ChickensDoo
04-10-2004, 12:38 PM
the problem with organics in florida is that they have the reputation of being slower, not as effective and more costly!

which doesnt seem to fit into the florida lifestyle at this time. florida recidents want fast, cost effective, immediate gratification.

so running an organics only spray service is going to be a hard sell to the homeowner,,,,,i speak from experiance not out of my butthole!

Wow... you guys are tough... I think middle of the road is where this entire thread need return.
There are more than a couple ways to " skin a Cat" if you will. ultimately we will all be regulated to a more organic approach based on nutrient management and clean waters act anyway.
the problems Described by normal with organics and slow response, as well as costs. Are a wives tale....... The real problem getting cost effective timely results is your knolledge of the product characteristics, ( for excellent reading on results see pomar post on this forum) John moriarty did a fine job explaining carbon: nitrogen ratios' as well as a benchmark for o.m instead of using A traditional synthetic npk benchmark.
And normals statement about fitting in the Florida lifestyle @ this time, certainly is not state specific. It is an American consumers mantra...... Results Now. It is our function in the economy to find best practices available to meet the consumers demand.
Floridians are concerned with water qualiy and the enviroment, which also seems to be the pulse of most american consumers.
The Green industry as a whole needs to do a better job educating the consumer, while @ the same time stop setting themselves up for failure with Marketing jargon like " Greener And WEED FREE Guaranteed" There is a middle ground that we need to all be looking at as businessmen. Not debating the meaning of the Laws. We have enough attorneys as is.
Find the common ground.... problem with Perception of Organic's is public believes we are all tree hugging, granola eating hippies.
Democrats..... There are numerous advantages to both Organic's and some of the new chemistry and products coming to market. common ground..... end the debate position yourself to capatiolize.

bioman
04-10-2004, 04:31 PM
Chickendoo

Please take some toime the vist my site. We have proven products and the cost is very low. In fact if you wanted you could charge a customer $7.00 per thousand sqft, and still return a 24.24% gross profit. That is what my company is all about To make organics programs that work, and at a cost a company and your customers can afford.

Also visit the dealers only site

http://dealers.biolsinc.com

bioman

Ric
04-11-2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by bioman
Chickendoo

Please take some toime the vist my site. We have proven products and the cost is very low. In fact if you wanted you could charge a customer $7.00 per thousand sqft, and still return a 24.24% gross profit. That is what my company is all about To make organics programs that work, and at a cost a company and your customers can afford.

Also visit the dealers only site

http://dealers.biolsinc.com

bioman

Bioman


FYI Truly Nolen Pest control company is a nation wide company based in Florida. They charge $ 9.50 per thousands for their Fert and squirt and have a 72% return on gross. 24% return NET is even low for this business. Numbers are Numbers and I only point out that organic applications are not as cost effective or as profitable. Now I will give you and Norm Al credit for the statement that organic are increasing in popularity. I also will restate my believe that they have a place in Florida Horticulture along with synthetic. Good Luck, you appear to need it.

ChickensDoo
04-11-2004, 11:02 PM
Common sense approach, well said turf pro. to benifit from organics you do not have to be all or nothing. ultimately we will all be regulated to the middle of the road.

spirited conversations...........

ChickensDoo
04-11-2004, 11:08 PM
I said, I said, I dont buy snake oils son. do your homework boy, before you come into then henhouse messing with the big bird.