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View Full Version : who is truly practicing ipm?


bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 06:12 PM
is anyone really practicing ipm? if so, how do you eat, and live indoors?

Tscape
03-18-2004, 06:51 PM
Is this going to be a self righteous, bang the IPM drum post?

bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 07:07 PM
no, it's simple. if you are practicing true ipm, it means,you first took a soil sample, you aren't using a crabgrass preventer, it means you are not using merit, it means you are not using weed control, UNLESS, u have tried other measures to control the 3, and you have made several trips, day and night, to the site to make a positive identification of pests, and threshold. now, since a true practitioner of ipm cannot prescribe a program unless all i said was already done, does the customer pay for soil samples, trips to the site for evaluation, a little extra for night trips, does the client allow you to tear up the lawn to search for grubs, and pay for this evaluation, and finnally, if all else fails, and after all this is done, will the client also pay for neccesary treatments? what is my point? ipm is horse sh!t, that is my point. thank you

DUSTYCEDAR
03-18-2004, 07:22 PM
bobby i think u r taking it a little far ipm comes in many forms and ways of interpreting it
so who wants ipm on your customer list?

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 07:39 PM
Bobby, I think ipm has its place with certain problems,

It wasnt too long ago I was applying blanket apps of dursban on every lawn, then I switched to battle, ITs been several years since I dropped that blanket app of surface insect control and I have seen very little chinch,bill or other surface damage.

I dont think too many guys are doing blanket weed control apps like we use to back in the 80's when every tank mix had weed control.

I think certain things like crabgrass control cannot be used other than blanket apps to prevent , unless products like acclaim and drive come way down in price.

Merit is one of the safest materials on the market and most effictive in controling the target pest, I think thats a great example of IPM

bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 07:40 PM
nobody. but, i talked via email to my lady friend at the d.e.p, and she said, starting next year, they will begin enforcing the use of ipm. you will be required, by law, to do every means of controlling the pest, or weed, without the use of chemicals. and, if finally, the use of chemicals is your only answer, it must be done with the absolute least amount of chemicals possible, which means, spot treatments instead of blanket apps, no more merit, no more pre em. it means visiting the site continuosly (and who's gonna pay for this?) to moniter pests and threshold. if you dare to use any chemical as a "preventer", or control method, you must have documented proof, that the condition exsisted the prior season, and it was properly identified, and the only means of success is to treat chemically. so now what's gonna happen? right now we are battling the guys applying without a license, pretty soon we will be battling eachother, cus who's gonna go to these measures, and who can make money this way? so now , instead of reported unlicensed companies, we can start reporting the licensed companies who are not practicing ipm.

bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 07:52 PM
ok james how do you justify using merit? there was no pest there when you treated. sure, you may have made field trips and found the beetles, but how can can u justify the treatment, without being certain of threshold? we know the beetles will lay eggs, but how do we know for sure there will be enough hatched to create a problem? practicing true ipm would mean evaluating threshold levels, which means merit would probably be useless at this time. ipm , praticed to its full extent, would mean the end of the pesticide business. unfortunately, i'm told, summonses will be written out for any practice not consistant with true ipm, in it's leteral wording.

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 07:58 PM
If that is true then they would but scotts, vigro and all suppliers out of business cause all those products have blanket apps for the first 3 treatments

Not much Ipm there

Sounds like scare tactics to me, I would be very surprised if it happens

Join Placca or any local turf group, I sure they will get involved.

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 08:02 PM
email that ladys name, and I will send it along to Jim Campanella, he is the new president of placca,

JIm and I worked together for many years at differnet lawn companiesI m sure he would love to hear about this.

bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 08:07 PM
i will not by any means reveal my source. but tell me, is using merit, really considered ipm? and as far as scotts, vigro, etc, these companies cater primarily to homeowners, the laws on this matter would not change, it's only if u apply pesticides on a "for hire basis" that you would get boned. in fact the companies that cater to home owners would probably prosper, as this type of monitoring the lawn care companies would be nothing less than a death sentance for our business, therefor the homeowner would be forced to apply thier own stuff, unguided, the people who sell these products would have a field day on the un knowing home owner(kind of like we do, ha ha)

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 08:13 PM
In your world, no its not


My world I am using one of the safest products avaible for a very common problem that would require using a far worst product ( dylox ) if the grubs did infest the lawn. So I would say yes, this is a perfect example of IPM,

Now if its a shaddy lawn that thin, I would not apply merit.

I think your source is just trying to get you all worked up......isnt Ric's wife a employee there? :)

bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 08:20 PM
a hah, so, u think slick ric is behind this? i shoulda known, it's always the quiet ones we have to watch out for. james, look at what you wrote:" if the grubs infest the lawn." that's a big IF james, you can't positively identify an "if"

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 08:34 PM
No, but I can make a educated guess to determine that could be a problem, In my case my 19 years working in this field I think I can do that.

That may not be a good enough answer for "your source"

But I question weather or not this is a real problem to worry about. Tomorrow I will call Malcap ( mass association of lawn care professionals ) and ask them if they think this is a legit concern, MY educated guess is its not

bobbygedd
03-18-2004, 08:38 PM
james, i hope it's all talk, this would wipe me out. not that i'm makin a million $$$ in pests, but i planned on growing

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 08:48 PM
I remember back in 87 when 20/20 did their story on Lawn chemicals....I thought my god this business is done, but once the truth came out and the dust settled and people started using commen sense people relized there is no safer way to have pesticedes applied then by a licence pro that reads the labels and follows basic guide lines that state dep's provide.

All in all I think your source, is full of crap and just trying to get your feathers ruffled

James Cormier
03-18-2004, 08:48 PM
I remember back in 87 when 20/20 did their story on Lawn chemicals....I thought my god this business is done, but once the truth came out and the dust settled and people started using commen sense people relized there is no safer way to have pesticedes applied then by a licence pro that reads the labels and follows basic guide lines that state dep's provide.

All in all I think your source, is full of crap and just trying to get your feathers ruffled

PaulJ
03-19-2004, 04:33 AM
I think of IPM as a combination of culteral practices and chemical and maechanical control. Anytime one takes into account that you don't want to put out chemicals you don't need, you are in the spirit of ipm to some extent . that's hwy I don't blaket spray every yard for weeds. That's why I dont put grub control on unless the client requests it. (it is not a part of my standard program) I don't take Ipm to 100% but I do keep it in mind.

Here's some good reading on IPM

http://entomology.unl.edu/lgh/ent806/lecture24_%20ipm_and_thresholds.htm

Tscape
03-19-2004, 11:35 AM
I didn't think I liked the way this thread was sounding at the start. It has already been said: we all practice IPM and none of us do. The real world dictates practices.

turfsolutions
03-19-2004, 01:01 PM
My 3 cents:


In response to Merit aps. I was told at a educational seminar several years ago that Merit was 1/8 the toxicity of Dylox and most other post control products. So if you put down Merit for 8 years, it equals one application of Dylox. You could risk it and go every other year with Merit and you have cut your pesticide use for grubs in half (toxicity wise) - IPM??

IPM also depends of the customer. I have a few customers with drop dead gorgeus lawns and if they see one weed they are emailing me. Tough to practice IPM in these cases.

I do feel I practice IPM. I Soil test 80% of properties that I do. I apply granular organic based fert. I only blanket spray lawns when needed and spot treat the rest. I am trying out an all natural biological fungicide this year which will cut my chem. fungicide use in half. I aerate most properties once a year, cut with sharp blades keeping as much as possible to the 1/3 rule. I inform my customers about proper watering.

In my opinion, the first step in future regulations should be to ban over the counter pesticide sales to home owners. Liscensed applicators only. I see 100 times the mistakes done by homeowners who don't even take the time to read the damn label. A fine example: how many of you guys have seen a homeowner spray what they thought was a selective herb. on their lawns only to find out 7 days later that it was a non selective herb. My brother in law was putting down merit the day after it had rained 2 inches. It would be a win win situation for us lco's and the environment.

Project Earth, LLC.
03-21-2004, 01:12 PM
I didnt read all the posts here, but I see who started this (Bobby). And once again, I dont think the people responding to Bobby understand what it is like in NJ. NJ has *SERIOUS* environmental problems and the NJ DEP has really gotten out of control the last few years, and doesnt seem to be slowing down at all. I understand why Bobby posted on IPM, because he lives in NJ and NJ is going nuts promoting and trying to enforce it.

So like he said, when the day comes that you started to get fined out the a$s for not practicing it, what happens?? Do prices get so far out of control that the industry dies? Are *YOU* going to test soil, monitor properties, try natural means of pest prevention for "$29. an application"?

-JC


-JC

lars
03-22-2004, 02:21 PM
IPM is much more than chemicals and good results can be obtained if you think about what you are doing. Not a single person has menitoned proper cultural practices are a part of IPM. Keep proper N levels to control diseases and keep out certain weeds. Take another step by relieving compaction and adjusting your mowing height. Also, healty turf is holds a higher threshold as far as insect damage goes. Some of these things will make life easier for you and earn you some extra money. Mabye an extra fert app each year or aerify twice as much.

There is some potential in other aspects of IPM. If someone has grubs, you can get paid to release preadatory insects. They don't sell those at Lowe's. If in fact the laws change you have to roll with the punches and adapt. Being a dynamic businessman often determines your success in the industry. If things change, change with them.

As far as the laws in NJ, I don't know much about them. It's a shame if the turf market is being singled out as a result of widespread problems. When applied propely, turf is one of the safest plants to apply chemicals. I seriously doubt that banning chemical use in NJ would solve anything.

bobbygedd
03-22-2004, 04:20 PM
lars, i agree on the cultural practices. as far as the nemitodes, again, that would require monitoring, and incorporating the beasts after it has been determined that grubs exsist, and threshold is determined. again, nemitodes are very expensive, and what about monitoring the site, who's gonna pay me for that. that's the reason i hate the idea of true and total ipm, it requires alot of testing and monitoring, who's gonna pay me for this?

philk17088
03-22-2004, 05:03 PM
LEts ask a tougher question? How many customers would keep you if all they saw you doing every visit was scouting?

Tre/shrub service is even more difficult, walk around doing pest monitoring, never pull a hose and leave a bill? Yep, it is fundementally correct and I do it at my own property, but it ain't going to fly with the average homeowner.

bobbygedd
03-22-2004, 08:18 PM
that's what i'm tryin to tell ya phil, if you really only do what you sincerely need to do, you'll go broke. that's why we have established "basic programs" for our own areas. based on the needs, of the average homeowner in each of our areas, we establish a basic program. unfortunately, i think the future of this end of the business(the best end) is doomed

lars
03-23-2004, 08:56 AM
When you charge then for one application (or bug release or whatever) include the cost of you going out and scouting. They will think they are getting monitoring visits for free. As far as when they freak out at such a huge bill, that's the price to pay for the new rules. I know where you' re comming from and why you're angry. However, if the rules change you have to change too. And if you're ready for it you can be a step ahead of your competition.