Found out my "friend" is a scrub..how would you handle?

[GarPA]

Well I'm between a rock and a hard place and need your advice.
I have an acquaintance(son-in-law of my neighbor), who last year moved here and re-started his mowing business. He's been in the business for 11 years and does very nice work. We cover for each other when one is on vacation/sick etc.
I had this little voice saying to me "you need to make sure this guy has insurance when he;s on your properties"...so ..I proceed to give him a copy of my policy and ask him for the same thing....well my little voice was right...he has no insurance, and tells me that "in 10 years I have not had a need for insurance". While I cant say I was shocked, I was major league pissed off at him and said something like " you really need to get insurance"
Talked to my agent and the way we will get around this is he will be considered a part timer, the few times per year he works for me and I do have coverage for 4 part timers on my policy...I just need to "pay" him after he works for me for the one week in April.

But this just keeps eating at me...here we are trying to do things by the book and paying thru the nose for insurance and he's acting like a scrub...which franky, he is. I also doubt he's paying much in taxes, sales tax etc, if he's paying anything at all.

Ican;t let this go as I would not be true to myself so I am going to call him next week and have a blunt conversation with him, face to face.

Being crude and rude with him is not an option I care to use...rather, would appreciate some of your opinions on how you would handle this conversation..I'm glad I cooled off a little because I almost ripped him a new one the minute after he admitted he has no insurance...thanks for your input

[goodbeus]

I'd require him to have insurance before he stepped onto any of my properties...if he's doing nothing but residentials, he doesn't need any...is it a good idea to get insurance...HELL YEA...:rolleyes:

[GarPA]

all he does is res...but most of ours are commercial...why does he not need ins for residential?? If he propels a rock thru little Johnnies forehead, hows he not liable?

[DUSTYCEDAR]

it is a bad situation u r in if u get in his face and tell him he needs ins and to pay sales tax and he tells u to go pound salt then what?
also if he gets turned in to the irs or has a ins problem he will think u turned him in.

[GarPA]

right on Dusty...awkward for sure...if he didn't so such good work, I wouldn;t care if I p'd him off. 2 other guys I had cover for me in the past were both idiots and I heard about it from the customers...so...I'm trying not to burn a bridge here but I;m still going to have to talk to him.

my ins agent said he's covered since he will be a part time employee for one week and I'll "pay" him for covering for me.

makes me nuts though that guys in this biz can't find $500 a year to buy liab ins

[Randy Scott]

Well, honestly, and I know you may need him to cover for you for vacation, but by letting him service YOUR properties, and getting paid for it, you are just allowing him to be that "scrub" and really should never complain again about this or anyone pulling this BS.

Somebody needs to put a stop to it, whether he gets insurance or not. I would rather put myself out, missing my vacation, than to knowingly help out this guy. Essentially that's what you are doing. I realize you're in a bit of a bind with the situation, neighbors son-in-law, but that doesn't make it right to do this.

Just tell him politely how you feel. Tell him that you play by the books, and do not condone someone that doesn't. Put a twist on it and make him be the bad guy. Tell him you just can't associate with this type of business owner. Tell him you are actually putting your own self out by declining his help and that now you don't have him as a backup and that you can't leave your business in his hands while you're gone. Tell him that's just how you feel and he needs to respect your professionalism. The excuse of not having to use insurance in ten years is a cowards excuse and that you don't play russian roulette with everything you worked for. If he is an individual, that in todays "sue happy" society, doesn't feel insurance is an important commodity, then quite frankly he is an idiot and you aren't using good judgement by using him for your stand in.

This is all part of being a business owner. There is no way I would let him do anything for me knowing he doesn't have insurance. Like you said, what else does he do that isn't proper business practice. Taxes, etc..

If you are a solo operation, which I'm assuming you are (?) these are the drawbacks to not having employees to do the work while you go on vacation. Take your vacation in the off-season.

Anyways, you have to make the decision, but I'm seriously tired of the complaining about "scrubs", yet when presented with the opportunity, nobody really wants to do what's right. This is your opportunity to make a stand. Regardless of what he does or doesn't do to rectify the problem, at least you have done your part.

[DFW Area Landscaper]

The only people we know are scrubs are the ones who we actually talk to. They tell us these things with an understanding of trust. Friendships are built on trust. In our society, generally speaking, if a friend tells you something they've done illegally, you don't turn them in. Whether it's betting on sports, smoking dope, driving drunk, etc. When a friend tells you these things, you don't call the police. That's just the way our society is.

I started a thread about a week ago wherein I was going to start sending the state comptroller a copy of all the door hangers I got this year so they could insure that everyone is charging sales tax. I encountered very little support for the idea of turning in everyone.

Your friend isn't breaking the law in most states unless he's also controlling pests. Or if he's told some of his clients he's insured.

My recommendation: Make up your mind as to whether you want to confront the issue. If you decide to just ignore the issue, that's your decision. But if you decide to pursue it, you might try to get more information out of him first. Is he charging sales tax? How does he pay his labor? Does he pay time and a half over forty? Ask him how often he pockets a little cash and never runs it through the books.

Then, after you find out how much of a cheap skate this guy really is, you can make a final decision.

As for me, I know several friends in the business who are illegally classifying their employees as subcontract labor, avoiding our country's overtime laws, avoiding social security taxes and unemployment taxes. Good chance they're skimping on workman's comp too, but that's not illegal in Texas (just stupid unless you're net worth is zero). I don't plan to turn them in, though.

There needs to be a solution to the problem. If we knew that a guy we don't know was avoiding some of our costs, we'd turn them in. But we don't know because we've never talked to them. But if we talk to them and they confess, then they're our 'friends'.

Ethics are tough. I just wish the government would focus on everyone equally instead of only the large revenue tax payers.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[Randy Scott]

Originally posted by DFW Area Landscaper
As for me, I know several friends in the business who are illegally classifying their employees as subcontract labor, avoiding our country's overtime laws, avoiding social security taxes and unemployment taxes. Good chance they're skimping on workman's comp too, but that's not illegal in Texas (just stupid unless you're net worth is zero). I don't plan to turn them in, though.

I really don't understand your logic of thinking. If you have a friend doing these things it's o.k.? Yet you want to send all your competitions fliers to the comptroller? Would you turn them in if they gang-rape a 13 year old girl? Or not because they're your "friends"? Your thinking puzzles me. If my "friends" didn't play by the books, they wouldn't be my "friends"!!

You are throwing out some seriously mixed signals here. Friends it's o.k., competition, it's not? Which is it? Not trying to bust your balls, but can you see what I'm saying with your response?

[Project Earth, LLC.]

My opinion: Don't get involved.

You have enough on your plate worrying about YOUR business. What do you care if he doesnt have insurance? All the years your neighbor's son in law (or whoever) didnt have insurance is going to catch up to him ten fold when something DOES happen. I would agree to not have this guy cover your accounts without insurance and let him know that, nicely. Other than that, who are you to tell him how to run his business? Would you tell someone how to raise their kids and not expect them to tell you to f*** yourself?

The best revenge is living well. Just myopinion.

-JC

[mtdman]

Personally, I would not hire him to do your fill in work anymore and tell him why. And leave it at that.

[DFW Area Landscaper]

Randy,

Any of your friends ever tell you they bet on a football game? Did you immediately call the police?

There's not a whole lot of difference in my opinion.

I'm not about to to notify the IRS or the employment comission or the department of labor that my friend should be investigated and forced to pay back taxes and overtime wages with penalties and interest.

Now, as far as turning in the competitor I've never met, I have no problem with that. The whole problem is, I have no evidence either.

My choices really boil down to these two:

1,) Suspect that everyone is doing at least something wrong to avoid a cost and turn in everyone I see with absolutely no evidence. My gut feeling is that 75% of the time I'd be right. So far, I've done nothing. Good chance the government agency would do nothing without some kind of evidence anyway.

2.) Turn in only the people who I know are breaking the law and are thereby avoiding a cost. But the only ones I know are doing these things told me these things personally in a spirit of trust. My societal norms have thus far prevented me from doing anything with these known 'offenders'.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[Randy Scott]

I think we're getting off-track here. My original response had nothing to do with legalities. It was a response to a personal work ethic in which a question was asked. I don't think not having insurance is illegal. It is stupid, but not illegal. I never told him to turn his neighbors son-in-law in, what for, he's not breaking a law. I told him to do business with someone that plays on the same field and is responsible and ethical as far as I'm concerned.

You turned the thread into a legality issue and I responded accordingly to that. I still feel the same way. I can honestly say my friends don't bet on sports. I do understand your point though. We have all done something illegal in our life. No doubt. My problem, and I reiterate, is you knowingly allowing your friends to, as you put it, "avoiding" certain legal issues. My point, business is business, friends or no friends, you screw with my livelihood by these types of business practices, you ARE NOT my friend, plain and simple.

I guess we could go on all day, so I will respect your thoughts as well as I hope you respect and understand mine.

[GarPA]

I'm not solo but I am...(sounds like John Kerry doesn't it)..my college kinds do NOT touch the mowers, but they do the detail and landscape work. So, I might just have to let the properties go for 8 or 9 days. Since its mid April when I;ll be goine, the growth rate should not be too bad unless we have a real wrm spell.

I am still so p'd off at him I cant see straight. I've decided to do the following

- until he hands me a certificate of insurance, we cannot do business with each other. Period. THis will cause him some major stress becuase he cant let his residentials go for 8 or 9 days in early Sept...so..the ball is in his court. Hell for all I know, maybe theres some reason he can't even get insurance..THis kind of krap is part of the reason these yahoos run around lowballing us all.
- as some of you have said, in the end its up to me...and if I let him slide by on this, I'll not be happy with myself because I;ve condoned his scrubby behavior.

thanks for the advice guys...most helpful

btw, in 3 years I have not really paid much attention to the rate of grass growth in mid April...last year it seemed the grass went nuts every week all year.... on avg, do you recall how fast the turf is growing in ,mid April? thanks again...

[DFW Area Landscaper]

++++My original response had nothing to do with legalities.++++

I understand. But I betcha a dollar if GarPa digs a little deeper, he'll find that this uninsured guy is also dodging a lot of other expenses that legitimate LCO's are paying, which would place this 'friend' in violation of the law. Namely, employment taxes (ss & unemployment) and overtime.

I've done the math. A guy playing by the rules, hiring a single employee with no dependents, working his employee an average of 55 hours per week, will pay 61% more in labor costs than the guy who uses 1099's for employees.

So, if he finds that these costs are being avoided, should he report him to the respective government agency? That's a tough question. For me, the answer is no (so far).

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[James Cormier]

I think the bigger problem is their are guys or girls on this board that boast about not having insurance ( in MA its the law for businesses to have insurance ) And alot of them give this out for advise on many threads,

And then they wonder why landscapers have a bad rep. with other lawn care pros and the general public

[Lux Lawn]

Thats a tough call if it were me I would talk to him and explain the benefits of having insurance in case something does happen.
You would not drive a car/truck without insurance because you never know when something can happen.

Last year around here there was a guy that had his whole set up stolen two riders a walk behind,blowers,trimmers and truck if that guy didn't have insurance he would be out of business the next day.

When he is filling in for you is he using your equipment or his?

I would think if he is using your stuff on your accounts your insurance will cover him.

[charlies]

GarPA,

boy, how is it that you have to miss a week right at the beginning of the season? that's not good.

if he isn't above board in all aspects, don't let him onto your properties period.

companies all over are very successful, despite the fact that they compete against the very same 'scrubs' that you do. if they can be successful in the face of this (cough, cough) adversity, why can't you? don't sweat it.

[gramps]

Turn them in. So much energy worring about what the other guy is or is not doing. All this watching reporting, sounds like China.

[DRM Ventures]

I avoid supporting those who display these behaviors. If people don't hire them because they don't have ins. or run a legit business they are going to have to comply with good business practices or starve.

Doing the right thing is hard and causes hardship.

Derek

[DJL]

why can't you just say to him "Look if you are going to do work for me you need to show a proof of insurance otherwise I cannot 'sub' you out."? I know my insurance carrier requires anyone I hire for sub-work to be insured. Just an insight.

[promower]

If he's just mowing lawns Ins. isn't to bad, I think mine is like $33.00 per month.

[GarPA]

When I have my "back to Jesus" meeting with him next week after I rip him a new one, I'm going to tell him that the yearly premium for 500k of liab ins is less than one small mulch job....

[Tim Canavan]

DFW and Randy Scott,

I'm with both of you. You both have very valid points.
If we all don't start doing something, then nothing will ever get done. We could just let them do what they want while we pay out the A** for the things that they do not.